Subject: TROMBONE-L digest 158 Date: Tuesday, September 7, 2004 12:01 AM From: Multiple recipients of list To: Multiple recipients of list TROMBONE-L Digest 158 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) OTJ Classifieds Update - 9/6/04 by Chris Waage 2) Trombone CDs for sale by Dale Cruse 3) Re: Copycat horns by sgreat@tpg.com.au (Simon Greatwood) 4) Trombone CDs for sale by Dale Cruse 5) Re: Copycat horns by sabutin 6) Tbn 4tet Xmas Carols by Robert Elkjer 7) Re: Copycat horns by "Matthew Stoecker" 8) Re: Copycat horns by sabutin 9) Re: Copycat horns by "Pat McFarland" 10) Tuning slide distance was RE: Re: Copycat horns by "Jeff Albert" 11) RE: Tuning slide distance was RE: Re: Copycat horns by "Bob Koester" 12) Free Records by Jackie Harris-Stone 13) Bach 45B? by Gabriel Langfur 14) Re: Bach 45B? by Eric & Candice Swanson 15) Re: Bach 45B? by "Art Triggs" 16) Re: Bach 45B? by "Bob Koester" 17) Re: Bach 45B? by Raymond Horton From: Chris Waage Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 08:06:42 -0500 To: Trombone-L , brass_list Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2036] OTJ Classifieds Update - 9/6/04 The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds - http://www.trombone.org/classifieds - have been updated as of 8:05 AM CDT on September 6, 2004. - - - - - Thank you for using the OTJ Classifieds! - - - - - OTJ Classifieds Frequently Asked Questions http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/faq.asp OTJ Gift Shoppe: http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=trombones If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone Journal Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org. Chris Waage -- Chris Waage, Bass Trombonist The Online Trombone Journal www. trombone.org From: Dale Cruse Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 09:37:58 -0400 To: Trombone-L Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2037] Trombone CDs for sale I have the following trombone-related CDs for sale. Perfect condition Ð no scratches Ð played once - $10 each plus shipping. Email for availability. John Allred - ÒIn the BeginningÓ Loren Marsteller - ÒTrombone and EuphoniumÓ - music of Creston, Hill, Wilder, Bach Bill Watrous Quartet - ÒLive at the Blue NoteÓ Jiggs Whigham - ÒHopeÓ Herb Bruce - ÒHerbicideÓ - with trombonists Eric Alexander, Bill Broughton, Steve Bulla, Willis Howell Tom Kubis Big Band - ÒChristmas IIIÓ - with trombonists Andy Martin, Alex Iles, Charlie Morillas, Rich Bullock Mike Tomaro Big Band - ÒDancing EyesÓ - with trombonists Matt Niess, Rick Lillard, John Jensen, Don Sheehan, Jon Youngdahl Sixteen Trombones of Seven London Orchestras - ÒThe London Trombone SoundÓ - with trombonists Ian Bousfield, Eric Crees, Robert Hughes, Roger Harvey, Lindsay Shilling, Henry Hardy, Christopher Mowat, Steve Saunders, Michael Hext, Colin Sheen, Ronald Bryans, David Chandler, Richard Tyack, Dudley Bright, Peter Bassano, Keith McNichol NOT TROMBONE-RELATED BUT STILL REALLY GOOD Bjork - ÒMedullaÓ Bela Fleck and Edgar Meyer - ÒMusic for TwoÓ - includes documentary DVD Angela McCluskey - ÒThe Things We DoÓ Jaco Pastorius - ÒLive in New York City vol. 2Ó ÒVerve RemixedÓ ÒVerve Remixed 2Ó ÒVerve UnmixedÓ SCRATCH SPECIAL Ð these discs have minor scratches but play perfectly MC5 - ÒThe Best ofÓ - $7 Weather Report - ÒNight PassageÓ - $7 ÒThe Blue Box Ð Blue NoteÕs BestÓ - four disc set Ð only one disc has a small scratch - $20 ---- Dale Cruse www.dalecruse.com From: sgreat@tpg.com.au (Simon Greatwood) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 23:54:54 +1000 To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2038] Re: Copycat horns On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 09:45:34 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >Chris Dearth writes: > >> > build horns to emulate the legends of the past >> >> Selmer is already kind of doing that with a couple >> models of saxophone. They have the Reference 52 alto >> and Reference 72 tenor. They were built with their >> Mark IV or VI (can't remember which) in mind. > >Do you suppose this means that the Bach division will >soon be cloning the Mt. Vernon models? What a radical >concept: make great instruments like the ones Vincent >Bach used to make! Back to the future! How about just continuing to make the ones they list on their site! I just got word from my local dealer here in Aus who had an email response from Selmer stating that they don't make the LT6 as of a year ago! I was looking for a smaaaaaall bore and the 4 disappeared long ago but the lt6 and lt8 are still on the selmer site. apparently the lt6 is no longer though :( What other stock tiny horns are there still? Simon From: Dale Cruse Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 10:05:06 -0400 To: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2039] Trombone CDs for sale I have the following trombone-related CDs for sale. Perfect condition Ð no scratches Ð played once - $10 each plus shipping. Email for availability. John Allred - ÒIn the BeginningÓ Loren Marsteller - ÒTrombone and EuphoniumÓ - music of Creston, Hill, Wilder, Bach Bill Watrous Quartet - ÒLive at the Blue NoteÓ Jiggs Whigham - ÒHopeÓ Herb Bruce - ÒHerbicideÓ - with trombonists Eric Alexander, Bill Broughton, Steve Bulla, Willis Howell Tom Kubis Big Band - ÒChristmas IIIÓ - with trombonists Andy Martin, Alex Iles, Charlie Morillas, Rich Bullock Mike Tomaro Big Band - ÒDancing EyesÓ - with trombonists Matt Niess, Rick Lillard, John Jensen, Don Sheehan, Jon Youngdahl Sixteen Trombones of Seven London Orchestras - ÒThe London Trombone SoundÓ - with trombonists Ian Bousfield, Eric Crees, Robert Hughes, Roger Harvey, Lindsay Shilling, Henry Hardy, Christopher Mowat, Steve Saunders, Michael Hext, Colin Sheen, Ronald Bryans, David Chandler, Richard Tyack, Dudley Bright, Peter Bassano, Keith McNichol NOT TROMBONE-RELATED BUT STILL REALLY GOOD Bjork - ÒMedullaÓ Bela Fleck and Edgar Meyer - ÒMusic for TwoÓ - includes documentary DVD Angela McCluskey - ÒThe Things We DoÓ Jaco Pastorius - ÒLive in New York City vol. 2Ó ÒVerve RemixedÓ ÒVerve Remixed 2Ó ÒVerve UnmixedÓ SCRATCH SPECIAL Ð these discs have minor scratches but play perfectly MC5 - ÒThe Best ofÓ - $7 Weather Report - ÒNight PassageÓ - $7 ÒThe Blue Box Ð Blue NoteÕs BestÓ - four disc set Ð only one disc has a small scratch - $20 ---- Dale Cruse www.dalecruse.com From: sabutin Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:30:12 -0400 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2040] Re: Copycat horns >On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 09:45:34 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >> >>Chris Dearth writes: >> >>> > build horns to emulate the legends of the past >>> >>> Selmer is already kind of doing that with a couple >>> models of saxophone. They have the Reference 52 alto >>> and Reference 72 tenor. They were built with their >>> Mark IV or VI (can't remember which) in mind. >> >>Do you suppose this means that the Bach division will >>soon be cloning the Mt. Vernon models? What a radical >>concept: make great instruments like the ones Vincent >>Bach used to make! Back to the future! > > >How about just continuing to make the ones they list on their site! I >just got word from my local dealer here in Aus who had an email >response from Selmer stating that they don't make the LT6 as of a year >ago! I was looking for a smaaaaaall bore and the 4 disappeared long >ago but the lt6 and lt8 are still on the selmer site. apparently the >lt6 is no longer though :( What other stock tiny horns are there >still? > >Simon Only the King 2B (and whatever variations they are cooking up) , if you mean horns that are sub-. 500 bore and have small bells. I believe that is it. Steve Shires makes a .500 bore with a 7.5" or 7.75" bell that can be customized to play pretty much however you want it to play...with a fairly tight leadpipe and the right choice of bell materials, bell types and slides I would imagine you could get one to play like a small Bach...and I believe there are small bell Raths available too, but that's about it. Anyone know anything else? S. Everything elsaed seems to be .500 bore/8" bell. -- Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN, A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at or just come on over check it out at From: Robert Elkjer Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 09:14:20 -0700 To: message to trombone-l Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2041] Tbn 4tet Xmas Carols Looking for tbn 4tet xmas carols? Visit Elkjer Music: http://home.pacbell.net/melkjer Thanks! From: "Matthew Stoecker" Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:42:11 -0700 To: , Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2042] Re: Copycat horns If you're looking for a small bore Bach, the New York Bach model 6s are fairly common on eBay and usually don't go for much more than $500-600, believe it or not. You might have to wait a few months, but one will come around. Matt Stoecker ----- Original Message ----- From: sabutin To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORDEDU Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 7:30 AM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2040] Re: Copycat horns >On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 09:45:34 -0700 (PDT), you wrote: > >> >>Chris Dearth writes: >> >>> > build horns to emulate the legends of the past >>> >>> Selmer is already kind of doing that with a couple >>> models of saxophone. They have the Reference 52 alto >>> and Reference 72 tenor. They were built with their >>> Mark IV or VI (can't remember which) in mind. >> >>Do you suppose this means that the Bach division will >>soon be cloning the Mt. Vernon models? What a radical >>concept: make great instruments like the ones Vincent >>Bach used to make! Back to the future! > > >How about just continuing to make the ones they list on their site! I >just got word from my local dealer here in Aus who had an email >response from Selmer stating that they don't make the LT6 as of a year >ago! I was looking for a smaaaaaall bore and the 4 disappeared long >ago but the lt6 and lt8 are still on the selmer site. apparently the >lt6 is no longer though :( What other stock tiny horns are there >still? > >Simon Only the King 2B (and whatever variations they are cooking up) , if you mean horns that are sub-. 500 bore and have small bells. I believe that is it. Steve Shires makes a .500 bore with a 7.5" or 7.75" bell that can be customized to play pretty much however you want it to play...with a fairly tight leadpipe and the right choice of bell materials, bell types and slides I would imagine you could get one to play like a small Bach...and I believe there are small bell Raths available too, but that's about it. Anyone know anything else? S. Everything elsaed seems to be .500 bore/8" bell. -- Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN, A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at or just come on over check it out at From: sabutin Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:47:25 -0400 To: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2043] Re: Copycat horns > > Only the King 2B (and whatever variations they are cooking up) , if >> you mean horns that are sub-. 500 bore and have small bells. >> >> Anyone know anything else? > >The Yamaha 697Z has a bore of about 0.480 I think. Mind you a guy in a big >band play in had one on approval and hated it. Despite being a brand new >horn he had the tuning slide out about an inch! > >Terrible that there are Bachs on the website that haven't been on sale for a >year. Really sloppy marketing. > >Keith in Bb/F/D Really sloppy company, the last 20 years or so... S. > > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.745 / Virus Database: 497 - Release Date: 27/08/2004 -- Sam Burtis is a NYC freelance trombonist and composer, the author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC. Visit us on the web at and/or , email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. The actual store in NYC is by appointment only. PLEASE VISIT THE OPEN HORN, A WEB FORUM Lots of interesting discussions going on every day. An introduction to the site is available at or just come on over check it out at From: "Pat McFarland" Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 11:52:38 -0500 To: , , Cc: Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2044] Re: Copycat horns I didn't realize that Olds made the P24G in 1957. I bought one brand new in 1977 on an Olds close-out sale at a music store in Clinton, IA. I think I paid @ $900 for the P24G and(!!) a new Ambassador euphonium. I had no idea the P24G's had been around for 20+ years at that time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Carmichael" To: ; Cc: Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2004 9:29 AM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2023] Re: Copycat horns > According to the 1957 Olds Sales Catalog > (http://ericburger.5u.com/photo5.html), the GR Olds Bass Bone was listed > as model "P-22". I also have had communications with a gentleman who > purchased an Olds George Roberts Model with S-22 stamped on the bell. He > sent me a picture of it as proof. The S-22 I used to play had the tuning > crook in the bell section but no reference on the bell to "George Roberts > Model". It was a great playing trombone with a reddish-gold brass bell and > projected almost as good as my Shires (well, maybe I stretch the truth a > little bit). > > Perhaps someone on the West Coast could ask George himself which model he > played. > > BTW, to the gentleman in the Northeast who swore Olds never made the Opera > model with a F-attachment, take a look at the listing. (I have a friend > who still plays his Silver Opera daily--F-attachment and all.) > > Roger Carmichael > > > > > > [Original Message] > > From: > > To: > > Cc: > > Date: 9/5/2004 2:39:47 AM > > Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2022] Re: Copycat horns > > > > The TITS model (Tuning In The Slide, for you whom may not have seen that > > abbrev. before) was the one I was thinking of. I played on a few of > > those and was lucky enough to hear George in concert when he was playing > > it. I also am familiar with the later S-22. Both were great playing and > > sounding bass trombones but I think the George Roberts model was more to > > my liking. My rusty memory thinks the brass was slightly different (maybe > > thinner on the later S-22) and the throat of the bell on the GR model was > > a little wider. So maybe the original GR was more like the old 62Hs, eh? > > Maybe one of the first clones, but without the benefit of computers in > > analysis and design. > > > > Jim Prindle > > > > On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 17:14:51 EDT SEA1045@aol.com writes: > > > The original Olds George Roberts Bass had tuning in the slide (and > > > had George > > > Robers Model on bell). S-22 (basically the same horn) moved the > > > tuning to > > > the bell and I believe indicated it was an S-22 on the bell, > > > although it was > > > still called the George Roberts model in the advertising. > > > > > > sea > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > Get your name as your email address. > > Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more > > Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today! From: "Jeff Albert" Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:09:52 -0500 To: , "'Keith Marr'" Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2045] Tuning slide distance was RE: Re: Copycat horns Despite being a brand new >horn he had the tuning slide out about an inch! > > > >Keith in Bb/F/D I missed this earlier. Are you saying that is a lot or a little? I'm not sure that I get what you mean by this. Jeff From: "Bob Koester" Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 17:02:57 -0500 To: jeff@jeffalbert.com, TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU, mail@gothicway.fsnet.co.uk Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2046] RE: Tuning slide distance was RE: Re: Copycat horns Hello list, Pulling the tuning slide an inch despite being a brand new horn doesn't mean anything without considering a number of other factors. For example, was the ensemble tuned relatively low? Does the individual player tend to play a little on the high side of the pitch? Could the player have been unfamiliar with the particular instrument? Did the mouthpiece fit properly? Was the ambient air temperature at any sort of extreme? Having said all that, individual instruments can be unacceptably sharp or flat depending on how and by whom they were built. Best to all, Bob >From: "Jeff Albert" >Reply-To: >To: , "'Keith Marr'" > >Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2045] Tuning slide distance was RE: Re: Copycat horns >Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 12:09:52 -0500 > >Despite being a brand new > >horn he had the tuning slide out about an inch! > > > > > > > >Keith in Bb/F/D > > > >I missed this earlier. Are you saying that is a lot or a little? I'm not >sure that I get what you mean by this. > >Jeff > From: Jackie Harris-Stone Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 15:10:33 -0700 (PDT) To: trombone-l@server5.samford.edu Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2047] Free Records My mom is moving overseas from the L.A. area, and has about 3 feet of records that she needs to get rid of- 2.5 feet of classical; half a foot of other, including a beatles, other similar period music. She is willing to give them to a good home, or send at cost anywhere to keep them out of the landfill. They're good records- she just listens to her CD's now. Anybody want them or know a place that would take them? For further details, or specific items, please call my mom (Judy Harris) at (626) 333-0166, or I can pass on an email. trombone related content- Mahler, Stravinsky, etc. Jackie Harris-Stone Bass trombonist, Orquesta Sinfonica de Monterrey, UANL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From: Gabriel Langfur Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 15:27:15 -0700 (PDT) To: Trombones and related issues forum Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2048] Bach 45B? I've been experimenting at the Shires factory, trying to assemble a small bass trombone for use in sections with alto trombone, maybe chamber music like the Stravinsky Octet, etc. I've run across a couple of Bach 45Bs, but I didn't take a close look at the specs. Does anybody know how this instrument was set up? Were there different versions? I think it most commonly had a slide just like a 42B and some sort of 9.5 inch bell. Was the taper the same as the 50B? Tuning slide? ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA From: Eric & Candice Swanson Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:28:57 -0500 To: glangfur@yahoo.com Cc: Trombones and related issues forum Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2049] Re: Bach 45B? Gabriel Langfur wrote: >I've been experimenting at the Shires factory, trying to >assemble a small bass trombone for use in sections with >alto trombone, maybe chamber music like the Stravinsky >Octet, etc. > >I've run across a couple of Bach 45Bs, but I didn't take a >close look at the specs. Does anybody know how this >instrument was set up? Were there different versions? > >I think it most commonly had a slide just like a 42B and >some sort of 9.5 inch bell. Was the taper the same as the >50B? Tuning slide? > > > Gabe, The two 45B slide sections that I have seen were both identical to 42 slide sections. I have heard that the original 45Bs had a dual bore 547-562, but I can't say if that is true or not. The bell sections seem to have varied. I saw one years ago that was made in Elkhart that was the same as a 42B except the bell flare was different...it got bigger quicker than a 42 bell does, and I remember it being about 9". Did not play particularly well. The owner had had it custom made by Bach, and was not real happy with it. The other two bell sections that I've seen were Mt. Vernons. Both had the same slide receiver, valve and F attachment, gooseneck, and small tuning slide receiver as a 50B. The tuning slide was the same size on the small side as a 50B, but then flared out to a size between a 42 and a 50. The large tuning slide receiver was between a 42 and a 50. The bell started out larger than a 42 and smaller than a 50, and flared out pretty quickly to almost bass trombone size. The ending diameter was 9" I think. The one bell section that had all its parts did not play well. The other was missing the main tuning slide and could not be played since no other tuning slide would fit. Can you tell my experience with the 45B has been pretty much negative? Maybe there are some out there that play well, I just haven't seen one yet. Maybe there's a reason they quit making them. Eric Swanson From: "Art Triggs" Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 19:47:17 -0400 To: "Trombones and related issues forum" Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2050] Re: Bach 45B? [Lurk mode off] Back about 30 years ago I borrowed one from a friend for a while, it played very nicely, and was setup somewhat like Eric described, It did have a Dual bore, 547/562, and was a MT Vernon Bell 9" It had a feel somewhat like a 70h special I had tried, maybe a bit lighter. I suspect you wont ever get a straight story from anyone at Bach on how these horns were made,(almost anyone that was around then who would know -or was involved in making them - is long gone - unfortunately) it seems like the ones that are still around are all vary a bit, more than likely they were custom configured for whoever ordered them.[lurk mode on again ;-)] Art Triggs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric & Candice Swanson" To: Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum" Sent: Monday, September 06, 2004 7:28 PM Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2049] Re: Bach 45B? > Gabriel Langfur wrote: > >>I've been experimenting at the Shires factory, trying to >>assemble a small bass trombone for use in sections with >>alto trombone, maybe chamber music like the Stravinsky >>Octet, etc. >>I've run across a couple of Bach 45Bs, but I didn't take a >>close look at the specs. Does anybody know how this >>instrument was set up? Were there different versions? >>I think it most commonly had a slide just like a 42B and >>some sort of 9.5 inch bell. Was the taper the same as the >>50B? Tuning slide? >> > Gabe, > > The two 45B slide sections that I have seen were both identical to 42 > slide sections. I have heard that the original 45Bs had a dual bore > 547-562, but I can't say if that is true or not. > > The bell sections seem to have varied. I saw one years ago that was made > in Elkhart that was the same as a 42B except the bell flare was > different...it got bigger quicker than a 42 bell does, and I remember it > being about 9". Did not play particularly well. The owner had had it > custom made by Bach, and was not real happy with it. > > The other two bell sections that I've seen were Mt. Vernons. Both had the > same slide receiver, valve and F attachment, gooseneck, and small tuning > slide receiver as a 50B. The tuning slide was the same size on the small > side as a 50B, but then flared out to a size between a 42 and a 50. The > large tuning slide receiver was between a 42 and a 50. The bell started > out larger than a 42 and smaller than a 50, and flared out pretty quickly > to almost bass trombone size. The ending diameter was 9" I think. The > one bell section that had all its parts did not play well. The other was > missing the main tuning slide and could not be played since no other > tuning slide would fit. > > Can you tell my experience with the 45B has been pretty much negative? > Maybe there are some out there that play well, I just haven't seen one > yet. Maybe there's a reason they quit making them. > > Eric Swanson > > From: "Bob Koester" Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 20:45:21 -0500 To: swan325@earthlink.net, glangfur@yahoo.com Cc: TROMBONE-L@server5.SAMFORD.EDU Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2051] Re: Bach 45B? As I remember, and this is going back a LONG time, the 45B was supposed to be a pit/small orchestra hybrid that at the time was to fill the gap between the 42 and 50 models. Originally, again as I recall, Mr. Bach was approached about building a horn that was big enough to sound good in the pit on "quasi" bass trombone parts...hence the 9 (which is what I recall) or 9.5 inch bell...but easy enough to play the higher stuff on hence the .547 bore slide. I don't recall they were ever dual bore horns. I do recall they were never popular. The couple I've played stunk. Best, Bob >From: Eric & Candice Swanson >Reply-To: swan325@earthlink.net >To: glangfur@yahoo.com >CC: Trombones and related issues forum >Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2049] Re: Bach 45B? >Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 18:28:57 -0500 > >Gabriel Langfur wrote: > >>I've been experimenting at the Shires factory, trying to >>assemble a small bass trombone for use in sections with >>alto trombone, maybe chamber music like the Stravinsky >>Octet, etc. >> >>I've run across a couple of Bach 45Bs, but I didn't take a >>close look at the specs. Does anybody know how this >>instrument was set up? Were there different versions? >> >>I think it most commonly had a slide just like a 42B and >>some sort of 9.5 inch bell. Was the taper the same as the >>50B? Tuning slide? >> >> >> >Gabe, > >The two 45B slide sections that I have seen were both identical to 42 slide >sections. I have heard that the original 45Bs had a dual bore 547-562, but >I can't say if that is true or not. > >The bell sections seem to have varied. I saw one years ago that was made >in Elkhart that was the same as a 42B except the bell flare was >different...it got bigger quicker than a 42 bell does, and I remember it >being about 9". Did not play particularly well. The owner had had it >custom made by Bach, and was not real happy with it. > >The other two bell sections that I've seen were Mt. Vernons. Both had the >same slide receiver, valve and F attachment, gooseneck, and small tuning >slide receiver as a 50B. The tuning slide was the same size on the small >side as a 50B, but then flared out to a size between a 42 and a 50. The >large tuning slide receiver was between a 42 and a 50. The bell started >out larger than a 42 and smaller than a 50, and flared out pretty quickly >to almost bass trombone size. The ending diameter was 9" I think. The one >bell section that had all its parts did not play well. The other was >missing the main tuning slide and could not be played since no other tuning >slide would fit. > >Can you tell my experience with the 45B has been pretty much negative? >Maybe there are some out there that play well, I just haven't seen one yet. > Maybe there's a reason they quit making them. > >Eric Swanson > From: Raymond Horton Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 22:32:27 -0400 To: glangfur@yahoo.com Cc: Trombones and related issues forum Subject: [TROMBONE-L:2052] Re: Bach 45B? Gabriel Langfur wrote: >> I've been experimenting at the Shires factory, trying to >> assemble a small bass trombone for use in sections with >> alto trombone, maybe chamber music like the Stravinsky >> Octet, etc. >> I've run across a couple of Bach 45Bs, but I didn't take a >> close look at the specs. Does anybody know how this >> instrument was set up? Were there different versions? >> I think it most commonly had a slide just like a 42B and >> some sort of 9.5 inch bell. Was the taper the same as the >> 50B? Tuning slide? >> >> I played a Bach 45 in high school - it was old and belonged to the school. I liked it a lot, but I was a young euphoniumist and didn't have much with which to compare it. The school also had a Holton TR 150 large bore tenor, and the Bach 45 really felt and sounded like a bass in comparison to that. A store in Louisville (long out of business now) at which I took lessons had a new Bach 45 on the shelf, for sale, for several years, when I was in high school and college. I played it more than once and would have bought it when I was in the 9th or 10th grade if I had had some money. By the time I had enough money to buy a trombone, in the 11th grade, I had learned later to go either tenor or bass, not in between, and bought a bass (for 530 dollars - I don't know where my parents got the money as they were broke at the time!). Many years later, as a professional bass trombonist, trying to find something that would work as a tenor for me, I called my old high school, hoping to work out a way to get that old banged-up Bach 45. (I was willing to give them a new single valve bass or something in trade). But the 45 was long since missing. That school has lost a lot of great instruments over the years - they used to have a nice bass sax, for one thing. I'd love to try one again, but I don't know if the 45 is the way to go for a smaller bass. For years I played only a Bach 50B - with a heavy walled 10 1/2 bell, full weight slide, two hand-made (heavy) Thayer valves, which is a great symphonic horn. (Everyone who tries it, loves it.) But since last spring I've been having good luck with using an old George Roberts model Holton Tr 183 in a brass trio and on a few lighter pieces in the orchestra. (For Beethoven Leonore 3 and some light WW concerti in a live church it worked very nicely.) It has 9 inch bell and a single conventional valve (the most open conventional valve I've ever played.) I can use a shallower mouthpiece (a Doug Elliot 144 K in place of my Doug Yeo) in the trio and play throughout the whole register and really make the sound flexible - sounding like a tenor when I need to and a bass when I need to. Holton still sells the Holton TR 183, without George's name on it. I assume it is still the same? Raymond Horton Bass Trombonist Louisville Orchestra