Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 26 Jan 2003 to 27 Jan 2003 (#2003-27) Date: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 12:00 AM From: Automatic digest processor Reply-To: "Trombones and related issues forum." To: Recipients of TROMBONE-L digests There are 29 messages totalling 1321 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Edwards .547 horn for sale, Elkhart Conn bass sought (3) 2. Alto Trombone Solo (5) 3. Selling Bach 36B... 4. DC/Baltimore Area Trombone Repair 5. OTJ Classifieds Update - 1/27/2003 6. Found an old teacher 7. Most Influential Non-Trombonists? (2) 8. Looking for a teacher (3) 9. bassbonegraphy 10. Dave Taylor Contact Information 11. Alto Bone Solo 12. Stirring the pot (3) 13. Jimmy Carter and trombone 14. Bottesini Double Bass Concerto 15. Acid Bleeding 16. Acid Bleed (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 01:02:27 -0600 From: Ryan Miller Subject: Edwards .547 horn for sale, Elkhart Conn bass sought http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16216&item=2503869853 Sorry for the shameful plug of my auction. This is a great horn and it's in nearly mint condition. It has no valve so you can add whatever your heart desires. The reserve is almost $400 less than a new one like it. Does anyone out there have an Elkhart Conn bass trombone they want to sell? Best regards, Ryan Miller trombonist ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 23:05:33 -0800 From: Elisabeth Frederick Subject: Alto Trombone Solo This hasn't come through yet. So I'll send it again. It must be with those missing socks and such.... Liz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elisabeth Frederick" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 12:52 AM Subject: Alto Trombone Solo > Hello List, > > I'm looking for something to play on my alto as part of a chamber music > class, a solo with piano. I would like something that isn't too difficult > and doesn't have a killer piano part. I was hoping for a few > recommendations. > > Thanks!! > > Elisabeth > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:11:07 -0700 From: "Roger L. Karren" Subject: Selling Bach 36B... I am selling a Bach 36B... in relatively good shape. I would rate a 7 on a 10 scale. NO lacquer, plays well. Excellent tone. No plating wear on inner slide tips. Typical pitting on hand grip areas, but not critical. Custom F Linkage. Slides move freely and are tight. Valve moves free and quick, and still has a good seal. Serial is 79xxx. Late 70's/early 80's? Pictures can be seen here...: ftp://digital:design@129.123.226.15/trombone I am still researching my asking price but if interested contact me off-list please. I plan to list on eBay this coming Tuesday evening. Roger ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 00:16:05 -0700 From: "Roger L. Karren" Subject: Re: Alto Trombone Solo Albrechtsberger. 1 and 2. I didn't find it too difficult... It's not real exciting though. Roger -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Elisabeth Frederick Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 12:06 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Alto Trombone Solo This hasn't come through yet. So I'll send it again. It must be with those missing socks and such.... Liz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elisabeth Frederick" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 12:52 AM Subject: Alto Trombone Solo > Hello List, > > I'm looking for something to play on my alto as part of a chamber music > class, a solo with piano. I would like something that isn't too difficult > and doesn't have a killer piano part. I was hoping for a few > recommendations. > > Thanks!! > > Elisabeth > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:46:53 +0100 From: Howard Weiner Subject: Re: Alto Trombone Solo At 23:05 26.01.03 -0800, Elisabeth Frederick wrote: > I'm looking for something to play on my alto as part of a chamber music > > class, a solo with piano. I would like something that isn't too difficult > > and doesn't have a killer piano part. I was hoping for a few > > recommendations. Although I tend to think of it as a piece for tenor trombone (in spite of its alto clef), you might want to try the anonymous sonata for trombone and bass continuo, the so-called "St. Thomas Sonata." But NOT in the edition that carries this name, since it's a very corrupt transcription of the original source. /shameless plug mode At the suggestion of Chuck De Paolo, I recently prepared a new edition of the so-called "St. Thomas." My edition, entitled "Sonata Trombono & Basso" (the title given in the original manuscript), is published by Ensemble Publications, and now available from Hickey's and the other usual suspects. (At Hickey's look under "Trombone and Piano" > "Anonymous") /end shameless plug mode Howard -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner If vegetarians eat only vegetables, what do humanitarians eat? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 06:58:58 -0500 From: Harlan Feinstein Subject: Re: DC/Baltimore Area Trombone Repair Carole> Bob Pallansch in Falls Church has worked on everything I have Carole> *but* a trombone-including my ophicleide. He's a heck of a nice guy, too. :-) --Harlan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 06:25:10 -0600 From: Chris Waage Subject: OTJ Classifieds Update - 1/27/2003 The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds (http://www.trombone.org/classifieds) have been updated as of 6:25 AM CST on January 27, 2003. - - - - - Thank you for using the OTJ Classifieds! - - - - - OTJ Classifieds Frequently Asked Questions http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/faq.asp OTJ Gift Shoppe: http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=trombones If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone Journal Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org. Chris -- Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster The Online Trombone Journal http://www.trombone.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 08:51:24 -0500 From: "Avery, Ray (232)" Subject: Re: Found an old teacher Joining this list has been a great learning experience and an opportunity to meet some great people. During a phone conversation with Paul Kemp this past Friday, we discovered that my trombone teacher from my college days is his friend and former colleague. It has been 28 years since I've seen Bob Monroe. So, I had to call Dr. Bob on Saturday. We had a good long conversation getting caught up on what we've done over years. It was wonderful getting reacquainted with him. I was pleasantly surprised that he remembered me right away, even knew what part of NY I was from. Guess I made an impression on him, not sure if it was good or bad. Some of the rest of you may be acquainted with Bob Monroe. He was in Florida for a few years in the 60's then he went to Ohio teaching at Cedarville College and playing in the Springfield Symphony and ended up teaching at Covenant College in Tenn. and playing with the Chattanooga Symphony. Wonderful musician, teacher and person. If it wasn't for the Trombone List I probably never would have found Bob again. In the subject line I referred to an "old" teacher, I guess that makes me an "old" student. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 05:53:31 -0800 From: David Guion Subject: Re: Most Influential Non-Trombonists? I wasn't paying close attention to the first couple of posts on this thread, so I'm not sure what the original intent was, but Denver Seifried wrote: >I am going to change directions--as mine have been arrangers, for some >strange reason. If he can change directions, I can change directions drastically. Here are some non-trombonists who long long ago changed the course of trombone history. 1) Philip the Good, Duke of Burgundy (15th century). Although he was not a king, he had the most ostentatiously grand court in Europe. Various other courts spent most of the next century imitating as much of his court as they could. He was among the first monarchs to patronize music in a big way and had one of the courtly "brass" ensembles. Okay, it was slide trumpets and shawms, which were eventually replaced by trombones and cornetts. Influential? No Philip, no Pezel tower music two hundred years later. (Towns, as well as other courts, knew a good thing when they saw it.) 2) Cosimo de' Medici, Duke of Tuscany (early 16th century.) I think that's the right one. Anyway, Florence would have preferred a republican form of government, but the emperor came to town and imposed a hereditary monarchy. Cosimo had to think of something to do to to prove his legitimacy when the emperor was out of town. So he spent a lot of money on grand entertainments: comedies with musical interludes. These interludes grew up to be opera. More to the point for trombonists, they used all of the musical resources at the court. This was at a time when a lot of the nobility thought that the wind band was just something to entertain the common people and was not fit for the entertainment of the nobility. But when they came to Florence for a wingding, they had to listen to the trombones. At least one extant piece from one of them is for a singer and four trombones. Then they had to tell the duke how wonderful it was. 3) Giovanni Gabrieli, an organist (late 16th-early 17th century. He's in all the books--the first composer to publish music that tell exactly which parts the trombones are supposed to play. (Most of them on some pieces.) 4) Ferdinand II, Holy Roman Emperor (early 17th-century). Okay, he was a jerk and a bigot and not a very highly regarded figure in history, but he visited Venice before he became emperor and was blown away by Gabrieli's music and decided he had to have a big group of trombones and cornetts at his place. As it turns out, there were lots of trombones in Vienna about the same time the Italians were beginning to lose interest. We have Ferdinand to thank, indirectly, for the Albrechtsberger and Wagenseil trombone concertos. Trombones were such a big deal at court that not only other courts, but also a lot of monasteries just had to have plenty of them and give them lots to do. 5) Patrick Gilmore, 19th-century American band director. He hired Frederick Neil Innes as solo trombonist. He already had cornet soloist Jules Levy packing in crowds. There were a bunch of other cornet soloists around. (Note, a cornet is not a cornett!) So far as I know, there weren't any comparably famous trombonists until Innes decided to make a name for himself by playing Levy's cornet solos. Gilmore's band was so successful that other people tried to put together professional touring bands, including a fellow named John Philip Sousa, who gave Arthur Pryor his big break. 6) Paul Hindemith (mid 20th-century). He wrote a trombone sonata in 1940, the first trombone sonata ever and the first trombone solo that had not been intended either as a conservatory contest piece or for popular entertainment by a virtuoso with band or orchestra. Solo trombone music immediately became more serious and respectable. There have been a lot of trombone sonatas since then, although, alas, none by a composer of Hindemith's stature. Well that turned out longer than I intended. Maybe in another five years I'll have a book out, and you can read about a lot of other influential non-trombonists. -- *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* David Guion Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? david@trombone.org *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:16:59 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Looking for a teacher From: "D.J. Kennedy" > theres lessoons 2b lernt 5 pence a day Eire? Erie? Iree! mon. Ize just bak fom paktissing wid de Jamaica bob-slay teem mon. Dem wunners no gud mon, on de wahm sandy beech. Need ice or de slide-o-miks. Need tombones an' steel dums fer support. Hoo do we aks mon? Dje ken E.D? A. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:44:24 -0500 From: Chris Dearth Subject: Re: Alto Trombone Solo I work I ran onto that would fit the bill is: Konzert B - Dur, op.7, Nr.3 by Tomaso Albinoni, arr. Branimir Slokar Published by Editions Marc Reift I think it is a little easier that Albrechtberger. Albrechtberger is a little harder than a previous poster mentioned, especially if you sweat the details :-). All is dependent on your level of ability. Albinoni only goes up to the C above the staff. When I've worked it on alto, it didn't seem to take much endurance either. Chris Dearth 2nd Trombone Evansville Philharmonic and Owensboro Symphony ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elisabeth Frederick" To: Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 2:05 AM Subject: [TBN-L] Alto Trombone Solo > This hasn't come through yet. So I'll send it again. It must be with those > missing socks and such.... > > Liz > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Elisabeth Frederick" > To: "Trombones and related issues forum." > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 12:52 AM > Subject: Alto Trombone Solo > > > > Hello List, > > > > I'm looking for something to play on my alto as part of a chamber music > > class, a solo with piano. I would like something that isn't too difficult > > and doesn't have a killer piano part. I was hoping for a few > > recommendations. > > > > Thanks!! > > > > Elisabeth > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:52:23 +0100 From: Ben van Dijk Subject: Re: bassbonegraphy Hi Dale, Thanks for your reaction and updates on my bassbonegraphy. I have the Charlie and Dave Taylor Cd's and will update them a.s.a.p. There is no reason what so ever to not put them on my site. I love both CD's but it's a lot of work to make the pictures etc. so.... I have Doug Yeo's "2 of a mind" and the Hawes new bass cd on it now. This week I will do the Taylor and Vernon and some Reichenbach's I have which I also love. I am very interested in the John Williams recording. Can you send me a copy? Greetings, Ben van Dijk Basstrombone Rotterdam Philharmonic Rotterdam Conservatory Royal Northern College of Music, Manchester www.basstrombone.nl ben@basstrombone.nl -----Original Message----- From: Dale Cruse [mailto:dale@dalecruse.com] Sent: zaterdag 25 januari 2003 14:42 To: Ben van Dijk Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Hi Ben and thanks for compiling this list. It's a great resource. I have yet another Charlie Vernon CD called "Night School: 8 Minutes to the Loop" where he plays both bass and tenor trombone. I can get you the track listing if need. Also, you have lots of Dave Taylor CDs, but didn't include "The Pugh/Taylor Project." Did you do that purposely? In a similar vein, Doug Yeo also has an album with Nick Hudson called "Two of a Mind." I also have a little something special that's not available for release. It's a live recording of Doug Yeo performing John Williams' Tuba Concerto (originally written for Chester Schmitz) with the Boston Pops. It's recorded from NPR and includes a lengthy interview with Doug and John afterwards. Have you heard it? ---- Dale Cruse www.dalecruse.com Setting you up for online success. On 1/25/03 7:10 AM, "Ben van Dijk" wrote: > Dear friends, > > I am working on a list of basstrombone solo CD's on my site. > The start is on my homepage under bassbonegraphy and is > just a beginning. > I have now almost all my CD's on it with their repertoire included, > some more will come a.s.a.p, and I will start with my LP collection > after that. I will also include the addresses where you can get the > Cd's later. > If you have suggestions, please name them so I can update the > list to make it even more complete. > > On my list is also a new recording of the Trombonly ensemble on which > Both Ingo Luis and my self play some basstrombone solo's. > Olav Ott plays a ensemble arrangement of the David concert and Ian > McDougall > plays some Jazz pieces. It's a very diverse, interesting CD in my > opinion. > > Greetings, > > Ben van Dijk > Basstrombone > Rotterdam Philharmonic > Rotterdam Conservatory > Royal Northern College > of Music, Manchester > www.basstrombone.nl > ben@basstrombone.nl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 15:54:12 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: Looking for a teacher Uh - UMI is in Eastlake Ohio, about a half-hour EAST of Downtown Cleveland. J.c. Sherman (current Clevelander) > Trombone content: The UMI Factories are on the westside of Cleveland away > from most of the old pollution problems. > > I feel I must defend my homeland from mistaken impressions. > > It is true that Lake Erie was terribly polluted in the 60-70's. I can't > comment on Canada's part, but we dumped everything into it expecting the St > Lawrence seaway to spit it out eventually. Lake Erie is only 60 feet deep > at its deepest part, that means its entire volume of water turns over very > quickly. That is also why it is the most dangerous of the Great Lakes since > even moderate winds can whip up big waves. When the steel and oil industry > left in about 1976 and mostly moved to Houston and out of country, Lake Erie > was the first lake to recover due to the water turnover. Downtown Cleveland > looks completely different than it did just 20 years ago. It almost > looks...cosmopollitin. Not your steel town of yester-year. So > while you still can't eat much fish from the Hudson River in NY, Lake Erie > fish are not regulated for health. > > > Rick Marple > Ex-Clevelander > -----Original Message----- > From: Adrian Drover [mailto:slide.rule@ADIOS.CO.UK] > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 11:29 AM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Looking for a teacher > > > From: "Steve Beck" > > > Oh Adrian, where have you been > > that made you think Erie was green? > > for it's dirty and brown > > (he said with a frown) > > ain't been green since France had a queen > > > I've been to the land they call the Emerald Isle, > Spelt diff'rent from the lake resembling a dog shit pile. > > Steve, you need a Guinness. > Better still, make it two. > > A. > > Adrian Drover > ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk > Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:55:25 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Edwards .547 horn for sale, Elkhart Conn bass sought Please don't take this as a flame, because it isn't intended to be. I have often wondered how people arrive at asking prices for used horns. I am not questioning Ryan's pricing, because the way that auction is going, it looks like it will make his reserve. I am also a firm believer that a free market will set its own prices, although a used trombone market might not be big enough to escape the affect of a few crazies. Anyway, my point is Ryan (in this example) is selling a horn that is a "few years" old. It looks to be in excellent condition, except it is missing one of three leadpipes. His reserve is "almost $400 less than a new one," making the reserve around $1200, according to his numbers. Now like I said, I am not trying to flame Ryan, actually it seems that he must be smarter than I am, because he is going to get more money for the horn that I would have if I were selling it. It just seems to me that 25% from new price is too close for a used horn. Is my perception vastly different from most used trombone buyers? How do you go about determining what you ask for a used instrument, or what you will pay for a used instrument? Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE- > L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Ryan Miller > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 1:02 AM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] Edwards .547 horn for sale, Elkhart Conn bass sought > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16216&item=250386 98 > 53 > > > Sorry for the shameful plug of my auction. This is a great horn and it's > in > nearly mint condition. It has no valve so you can add whatever your heart > desires. The reserve is almost $400 less than a new one like it. > > > Does anyone out there have an Elkhart Conn bass trombone they want to > sell? > > > Best regards, > > > Ryan Miller > trombonist ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 00:52:19 -0800 From: Elisabeth Frederick Subject: Alto Trombone Solo Hello List, I'm looking for something to play on my alto as part of a chamber music class, a solo with piano. I would like something that isn't too difficult and doesn't have a killer piano part. I was hoping for a few recommendations. Thanks!! Elisabeth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 09:04:27 -0700 From: Dennis Clason Subject: Re: Most Influential Non-Trombonists? In source instrument order Guitarists Wes Montgomery Joe Maphis Django Reinhardt Herb Ellis John Williams Nontrombone brasses Dennis Brain Dizzy Gillespie Bud Herseth Roger Bobo Woodies J.P. Rampal James Galway Chris Vaddala Wire Choir Casals Perlman Stern Vocalisti Sinatra, Sr. Mel Torme Ella Fitzgerald Kiri te Kanawa Elisabeth Schwartzkopf Why so many guitarists? My dad was a guitarist, and that's the first music I remember... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 16:04:43 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Re: Edwards .547 horn for sale, Elkhart Conn bass sought Not being an economist, nor having a heck of a lot of experience, my thoughts may not have much validity. However, it seems that any instrument price should be set as regards the condition and quality of the instrument - nothing more. Trombones, nor any instrument, do not depreciate like cars. A Strad violin shouldn't be $35 because it's used. That the edwards in question is a good horn in good condition (from a valid and relaible seller, no doubt) is the only information which is necessary. If I can get a used instrument at near- equivalent quality to a new one should command a good price, and should not be marked down ver significantly because it's a few years old. Sure, demand figures in too. But in this field, demand usually corrsponds to a marks quality and reputation. My two cents - Quality and condition. J.c. Sherman > Please don't take this as a flame, because it isn't intended to be. > > I have often wondered how people arrive at asking prices for used horns. > I am not questioning Ryan's pricing, because the way that auction is > going, it looks like it will make his reserve. I am also a firm > believer that a free market will set its own prices, although a used > trombone market might not be big enough to escape the affect of a few > crazies. > > Anyway, my point is Ryan (in this example) is selling a horn that is a > "few years" old. It looks to be in excellent condition, except it is > missing one of three leadpipes. His reserve is "almost $400 less than a > new one," making the reserve around $1200, according to his numbers. > Now like I said, I am not trying to flame Ryan, actually it seems that > he must be smarter than I am, because he is going to get more money for > the horn that I would have if I were selling it. It just seems to me > that 25% from new price is too close for a used horn. Is my perception > vastly different from most used trombone buyers? How do you go about > determining what you ask for a used instrument, or what you will pay for > a used instrument? > > Jeff Albert > > www.jeffalbert.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE- > > L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Ryan Miller > > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 1:02 AM > > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > > Subject: [TBN-L] Edwards .547 horn for sale, Elkhart Conn bass sought > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16216&item=250386 > 98 > > 53 > > > > > > Sorry for the shameful plug of my auction. This is a great horn and > it's > > in > > nearly mint condition. It has no valve so you can add whatever your > heart > > desires. The reserve is almost $400 less than a new one like it. > > > > > > Does anyone out there have an Elkhart Conn bass trombone they want to > > sell? > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Ryan Miller > > trombonist ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:21:50 EST From: JFBermann@AOL.COM Subject: Dave Taylor Contact Information Hi, Does anyone happen to have Dave Taylor's e-mail and/or phone number. I've misplaced them. Thanks!, Jim Bermann ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 11:24:10 +0000 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: Looking for a teacher Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but James W. Yardley > Hello everyone. A friend of mine is leaving next week to study abroad in > Limerick, Ireland. He plays bass trombone and is taking his instrument with > him. Please e-mail me off list if you know of anyone in that area he might > be able to study with. Any leads would be great. Thanks. > > Take care, > James Yardley Alan Raph, he of the dead-pan sass was over there teaching a class. So, if anyone would know who teaches the low blow, C'est Alan, sur le trombone basse. Ha, Adrian, try and top that!!! It not only rhymes, but has some useful info AND French (probably not so useful, except in France...), so there! Actually, Alan's masterclass was in Bantry, County Cork, and was written up in a recent ITA Journal. Here's Alan's webpage, which also has his email address... http://home.earthlink.net/~araph/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 12:29:56 -0500 From: tbonegib@BELLSOUTH.NET Subject: Re: Alto Bone Solo A dear friend and long-time principal trumpet of Atlanta Symphony, Mr. John Head, has written a piece for Eb Trumpet that works VERY well on alto. It's a terrific piece for learning the instrument. It's 5 mm, so if you wish, pick 2 or 3 to play if it's too much face time. You can inquire about the "Suite in Eb" by writing John Head at: jhead30360@aol.com Teachers.......this would be a good one to have in the library. Dr. Tom Gibson Georgia State University School of Music ph: 404-651-1740 trombonelessons.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 13:58:45 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: Stirring the pot I agree with the idea of regional sounds being influenced by speech patterns and accents. It was necessary for me to have several weeks of speech therapy when I was a kid. Since then, I have had an awareness of movement of the tongue and shape of the inside of the mouth that I think a lot of players don't have. A player I used to work with had to work harder than the average person to affect his tone and note shape by thinking the various vowel sounds (of course, with his hard work, he had total command of the technique). One day he was wondering out loud why that would be. I told him, "'cause yur from Texas. Pretend you're in Spanish class, it'll be easier." No diphthong, less extraneous motion equals easier articulation, easier tonal control. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of bldrbrs Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 8:59 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Stirring the pot Thank you Sam, I have believed and taught along these lines for many years. Perhaps one step further. Why do brass players from Great Britain, Germany, France, Italy, Russia, Australia, the United States et al. (apologies to those from unlisted countries) have tone qualities and articulation styles that are distinctly identifiable to those countries? Could it be that our everyday speech patterns and use of language have a profound influence on tone production and articulation? (please do not read into this ONLY influence) I believe so. One only needs to listen to recordings by PJBE, German Brass, and Summit Brass, Luur Metalls, etc. The shape and size of the oral cavity DO effect tone production, and not just because of it's influence on the embouchure (which is significant), but also because of it's influence on position of the tongue, influence on the size and shape of the main venturi to the embouchure, and hence quality of air stream / column and quality of articulation. Best, Michael Allen Instructor of Tuba & Euphonium Master's candidate - bass trombone performance and pedagogy University of Colorado at Boulder michael.allen@colorado.edu Boulder Brass bldrbrs@attbi.com www.boulderbrass.com -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of sabutin Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 6:43 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Mouth Cavity Size Hi all... Sorry I didn't get to this topic when it was more current. The Trombone Store idea is consuming lots of time. There is no question that the oral cavity affects sound. All you need to do to prove that is play a middle F and gradually close up your oral cavity w/the back and sides of your tongue. Or, sound different vowels.(Same thing.) More and more I am realizing that the tongue is the unconsidered factor in so much of what we do. Besides articulation,its other functions...timbral control (by altering the size and shape of the oral cavity) and routing and focusing the air, especially in the higher registers...are almost never addressed. Why is this? i think it is because we are almost totally unconscious of what we do w/our tongue on a continual basis. We do not "think" about the complexities of speaking, because to do so would stop speech in its tracks. We simply speak. Try it. Go ahead. Say the simplest sentence in any language, and try to be aware of the incredible shifts and gyrations through which the various parts of the tongue travel as they help to both articulate the consonants and sound the vowels. Now play a simple untongued harmonic series or a long tone from ppp to fff and back again and pay the same attention to the function of the tongue. Lots happening... We simplify this speech system somewhat when we play, because when we speak the jaw and also the lips help to form the sounds whereas when we play the lips are mostly busy dong the job of producing the sound and the jaw is comparatively immobilized as well compared to its freedom of movement during speech. I mean, try to form an embouchure and then, w/out altering the setting of your jaw and lips, try to talk. It can be done, because the tongue (and by tongue w/in this whole idea I mean all of the tongue, not just the front) takes care of some of the needed business, but it is quite limited. Now the original form of this thread had to do, I believe, w/the idea that the hard wired size and shape of an individual's oral cavity dictated that person's "sound". This is true to some extent, and you can include the entire air column's size and shape and the nasal cavities in that idea as well. This can be argued until doomsday, but by the simple expedient of altering those cavities in any way you can prove its truth. Play a middle F and while doing so, hold your nostrils closed. Altered timbre; end of argument. But...does the shape and size of any given individual's cavity system dictate "how" they sound, or for that matter whether they will ever get a good sound? (Whatever a good sound might mean in any idiom.) Yes, I suppose so. As much as what they hear as a good sound and the equipment they choose to produce that sound? I doubt it, except in truly strange situations...perhaps people w/cleft palates or maybe extremely small systems. EXTREMELY small. Much of the reason for equipment differences among players has to do w/just this idea. I suppose it could be somewhat more scientifically categorized (maybe not, come to think of it...), but a six foot four man who wears size 14 shoes and has a bass voice and a 5 foot woman who sings soprano and weighs 100 lbs. are going to need different equipment to get the same general kind of sound. Or maybe they CANNOT get the same sound, which would explain why so many orchestral principal trombonists seem to be about 6 feet tall and on the medium to slim side in natural build these days, why so many jazz trombonists who play in the general J.J./Slide Hampton/NY latin scene projecting style are somewhat barrel-chested by nature. Your physicality certainly dictates your capabilities, but only to a certain extent. The rest is up to you. Later... S. -- (Sam Burtis, author of "The American Trombone" and proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 14:56:09 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Stirring the pot --- Steve Gamble wrote: > I agree with the idea of regional sounds being influenced > by speech > patterns and accents. .... One day he was > wondering out loud why > that would be. I told him, "'cause yur from Texas. > Pretend you're in > Spanish class, it'll be easier." No diphthong, less > extraneous motion > equals easier articulation, easier tonal control. Hmmm...interesting stuff. I've noticed before how many really GREAT American bass trombone players are from Georgia and some of its neighboring states...that part of the country sports what is often a really beautiful regional accent, with sort of slow, open vowels. Hmmm...I guess I'll have to struggle along with my confused, born in California-raised near New York City-college in Ohio-live in Boston non-accent. Maybe I should move to Georgia. ===== Gabe Langfur Boston, MA __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:06:55 -0500 From: "Hector Bourg Jr." Subject: Re: Stirring the pot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabriel Langfur" > --- Steve Gamble wrote: > > I agree with the idea of regional sounds being influenced > > by speech > > patterns and accents. > > > Hmmm...interesting stuff. I've noticed before how many > really GREAT American bass trombone players are from > Georgia and some of its neighboring states...that part of > the country sports what is often a really beautiful > regional accent, with sort of slow, open vowels. Hmmm...I > guess I'll have to struggle along with my confused, born in > California-raised near New York City-college in Ohio-live > in Boston non-accent. > > Maybe I should move to Georgia. Y'all come! We'll have you speakin' with a drawl in no time...and the climate's better than Massachusetts any day!! HB (trombonist by choice...southern by the grace of God!) :-) **************************************************************************** *** Hector "Butch" Bourg Jr. - Graphic and Web Design - Atlanta, GA **************************************************************************** *** Trombonist - Sentimental Journey Orchestra - http://www.thesjo.com ** NOW CELEBRATING TWENTY-SEVEN SWINGIN' YEARS ** **************************************************************************** *** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 18:23:05 -0500 From: Bill Redgate Subject: Jimmy Carter and trombone Since he apparently is not going to mention it, I will. You've the Tag on all the Posts Butch Bourg of this list sends - "the Sentimental Journey Orchestra. 26 years, etc..." The Sentimental Journey Orchestra - yes the same mentioned in the tag of all of this list's Butch Bourg's Postings, Played this past weekend for President Jimmy Carter His ownself - as we say down here. The gig was a rousing success with Mr Carter actually going out of his way after the gig to come back stage, say Hello to the guys and shake a few hands. Hey the band was even invited to the reception after! Trombone Content - "I'll Never Smile Again" was in fact requested on the gig! At the Beautiful Rylander Theatre in Americus Georgia, a more elegant evening could not be had! Possibly the only negative of the weekend is that at last count, the Band Van still hadn't made it all the way home! Butch and SJO are to be commended on landing the class gig and executing it flawlessly. They're also to be commended for their choice of Bari Sax subs! Congratulations Butch. Bill Redgate Atlanta ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:32:36 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Bottesini Double Bass Concerto Does anyone know if the orchestra for the Bottesini Double Bass Concerto contains trombone parts? Hey I bet when you saw the subject you thought I was going off-topic. Fooled you!! The Detroit Symphony performed it in their 2001-02 season if that's any help. Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Are you still wasting your time with spam?... There is a solution!" Protected by Yaga Company's SpamHunter 3.2 The most powerful anti-spam software available. http://www.junkfighter.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:56:49 -0600 From: conn60h Subject: Acid Bleeding Every once and awhile I see this term pop up. What exactly is acid = bleeding? Is it strictly just a cosmetic defect? Is it preventable?=20 The term seems to come up often when speaking of Edwards Trombones. I = would think that because they are hand made, and very expensive = (compared to the major brands), their quality control would be able to = prevent this problem. Thanks ahead of time for your insights, Kenny Jay ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:34:56 -0500 From: Denver Seifried Subject: Re: Acid Bleed An acid bleed is caused by the acid used to clean a brass instrument, after it is put together by soldering and is buffed. The brass instrument is dipped into a tank of acid, which removes any impurities on the finish, like oils from our hands, before the final lacquer/epoxy is sprayed onto the finished brass instrument. It is very difficult to get the acid out of very tiny places, like the joints where the instrument was put together, and especially the bell rim, as it is a hollow cavity in the bell, where the bell wire is placed. After the finish is applied and the horn shipped, sometimes a trace of the acid seeps out of these tine cracks; and there you have it---a slight discoloration develops, as the acid reacts with the brass and the finish. It often appears as a dark spot under the lacquer/epoxy finish. Not being a repair person, I am not really sure what the "fix" is for these. My guess would be, possibly a re-buff and re-lacquer of the problem area? I am sure this would be covered under the warranty of a new instrument. Denny Seifried Bass Trombone-Springfield (OH) Symphony & Dayton Jazz Orchestra Adjunct Trombone-Wittenberg Univ. Dept. of Music ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 19:44:19 -0800 From: Galen McQuarrie Subject: Re: Acid Bleed My understanding, too, is that sometimes these "acid bleeds" can turn up months after a new horn is prepared and shiped. They are not always there when the horn is inspected. My understanding also with Edwards horns is that they will warantee the workmanship on the finish **I believe** for the life of the instrument. (Someone please correct me if I am in error on this.) at least they are apparently very good about taking care of acid bleeds that turn up on their instruments. Galen McQuarrie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denver Seifried" To: Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 6:34 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Acid Bleed | An acid bleed is caused by the acid used to clean a brass instrument, after | it is put together by soldering and is buffed. The brass instrument is | dipped into a tank of acid, which removes any impurities on the finish, like | oils from our hands, before the final lacquer/epoxy is sprayed onto the | finished brass instrument. It is very difficult to get the acid out of very | tiny places, like the joints where the instrument was put together, and | especially the bell rim, as it is a hollow cavity in the bell, where the | bell wire is placed. After the finish is applied and the horn shipped, | sometimes a trace of the acid seeps out of these tine cracks; and there you | have it---a slight discoloration develops, as the acid reacts with the brass | and the finish. It often appears as a dark spot under the lacquer/epoxy | finish. | | Not being a repair person, I am not really sure what the "fix" is for these. | My guess would be, possibly a re-buff and re-lacquer of the problem area? I | am sure this would be covered under the warranty of a new instrument. | | Denny Seifried | Bass Trombone-Springfield (OH) Symphony & Dayton Jazz Orchestra | Adjunct Trombone-Wittenberg Univ. Dept. of Music ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2003 23:09:52 -0500 From: Roger Carmichael Subject: Re: Acid Bleed Can't speak for Edwards, but I bought a Bach 42G many years ago. It was one of the first ones made with open wrap F attachment. About 3 months after receiving the horn (had to wait 6 months to get it in the first place), an acid bleed occurred. It was sent back to Bach for refinishing, but took another 6 months to get it back. My next two new horns had no problems; Yamaha and SE Shires. I owned the Yamaha for about 6 years and I'm on my third year with the Shires. Roger Carmichael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denver Seifried" To: Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Acid Bleed > An acid bleed is caused by the acid used to clean a brass instrument, after > it is put together by soldering and is buffed. The brass instrument is > dipped into a tank of acid, which removes any impurities on the finish, like > oils from our hands, before the final lacquer/epoxy is sprayed onto the > finished brass instrument. It is very difficult to get the acid out of very > tiny places, like the joints where the instrument was put together, and > especially the bell rim, as it is a hollow cavity in the bell, where the > bell wire is placed. After the finish is applied and the horn shipped, > sometimes a trace of the acid seeps out of these tine cracks; and there you > have it---a slight discoloration develops, as the acid reacts with the brass > and the finish. It often appears as a dark spot under the lacquer/epoxy > finish. > > Not being a repair person, I am not really sure what the "fix" is for these. > My guess would be, possibly a re-buff and re-lacquer of the problem area? I > am sure this would be covered under the warranty of a new instrument. > > Denny Seifried > Bass Trombone-Springfield (OH) Symphony & Dayton Jazz Orchestra > Adjunct Trombone-Wittenberg Univ. Dept. of Music > ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 26 Jan 2003 to 27 Jan 2003 (#2003-27) ****************************************************************