Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 4 Dec 2002 to 5 Dec 2002 (#2002-145) There are 33 messages totalling 1429 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. The Reputation Of Teacher's As Whiners? (2) 2. Why Art Matters 3. Why Art Matters///why do birds sing ????? (4) 4. Trombone Ogling Syndrome [Was Teacher's As Whiners?] (4) 5. FW: Soul Eyes 6. old besson tenor 7. teaching predicament (14) 8. Bill Adam Routine (2) 9. Book request 10. Giardinelli Symphony B Rim Size? (2) 11. Trombone Christmas CD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:32:23 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: The Reputation Of Teacher's As Whiners? From: "Daniel Pliskin" > Pardon me. Maybe it's that I'm a bit of a city boy. But what's wrong with > a raccoon head? No, please don't send me one, thank you. But is there a > law that forbids the send of raccoon heads? Seems to me, it's just another piece of junk mail. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:34:10 -0500 From: David Buckley Subject: Re: Why Art Matters Obviously I misinterpretted your comments Doug. Thanks for the clarification. I still think your use of the word socialistic is way over-simplified, especially in what seems to be a pejorative sense. There are more examples than you can shalke a stick at of US government activities which could fall in the same category, Should we start with farm subsidies and go from there? Sorry for already breaking my suggestion about non trombone related topics. Dave. Douglas Yeo wrote: > No offense intended, David. My comment was far from a "knee jerk" > reaction. I know many Canadian friends who are extremely proud of the > Canadian socialist system of government when it comes to many aspects > of governing. Many Europeans as well. I didn't say it was better or > worse than another system, just that the authors bias reflected her > country's system. I said, "That's one way to look at the universe: - > a neutral statement. I don't consider Canada to be the USA's 51st > state either. I'm happy to live in the USA, you sound happy to live > in Canada. Imperfections abound in all governments and systems. You > seemed to take my comments as some kind of cheap shot against Canada > and Canadians. I didn't say or mean that. > > All the best, > > -Doug Yeo > -- > > Douglas Yeo > Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra > Music Director, The New England Brass Band > > dyeo@rcn.com /// yeo@yeodoug.com > http://www.yeodoug.com > > <>< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:58:14 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Why Art Matters///why do birds sing ????? art is a commodity --a barometer of cultural values --art in grade school is mostly being taught by ''education'' types rather than ''fine art ''types -----craft--craftsmanship --work wormanship -inventiveness -or ability to execute ideas - little susie the only thing left from grade school is that little hand print in clay after the firebombing charred remains of a writer//poet a small bronze survived the apartment fire chicago 197? ------------------- if you america would quit teaching art even music and concentrate more on sports we would have less homos fags queers and lesbos then amerikkka could generate better soldiers in the quest for colonialization and corporatization of the planet ---art is not funded -people are funded their public displays of mastturbatory ejackulations foisted upon the unwashed publico are neither wanted nor understood -let them make floats for the rosebowl parade !!!!!!!! music has only one place -martial and marital music -- before the battle and taps at the end -- big bronze statues are about politics and only about politics -- thus the scrapping of public art after the fall of the russianreds burn the creaky rotten violins and pluck the hairs of the bald and let the guitar reign as punk kings crank up the woofers --only the young need overstimulation painting is dead /// close the art departments /// makemovies instead vincent van gogh is still getting pay raises !!! if your kid picks up a paint brush whack that kid on the hand ---get a job --painting dont pay nothin and its for sissies close the art departments -if it wasnt for the funding the perfessors would be selling shoes rather than misleading the sorry followers of the post impressionist pre raphaelite abstract expressionist photo realism cubist surrealistc popcult wannabees ----art is only for the rocka fellows and the riche -only the graduates of the best schools have learned the connections and corruption and dedacance of the evil kineval empire that rots from the centre ---public art is the funding of cronies and car worshippers boyfrenz gurl frenz and suckoffs politics as usual having very much to do with grant writing and propaganda generated by hypnotherapist writers in the mass media telling the public that ------this is art ------that they need it --- the public is being ripped off anyway -so who cares if maplethorpe and jars of pisschrists and cow parts in jugs shock the publico --the publico needs to be shocked ?????????? that is the question ????? the opening of a new show is being catered by ............................ the stuff the critics puke on -the stuff by rockwell --is not even considered to be art lawrence welk --is not music ---no funding some ball of string done but a crazed baglady in the loony bin -that is art there needs to be another word for it than art --- the idea that a piece of paper with scribbles on it is valued or a person who makes strange noises is valued moves in strange ways well being able to beat up another person that is much more easy to understand so if anybody wants to fite ---join the gyreens cause im just too busy workin on my latest projects art cars ----mobile expressions of 2nd admentment rights and recycling of auto finish painted luggage ---take the fright out of flight -- silver and gold crosses --always popular practice trombone --concert coming up make birdhuts ---as if birds needed any help think about making another pen -----because i finally almost got paid for a pen i made oct ----dec on 1997 -- looking around at the stacks of drawings paintings metalworks finished started or in conceptual stages lotta works -no pay ------------------- the dealers the galleries the museums foundations its all about monet?????????its all about the money and jobs for snoots shirts and stuckups with the connexxions keeping the right people in and everybody else out -the declarers of the daffinition without permission or electoral appointment by the supremes ---------------- art historians are pale worms who have never seen the light of day never seen a work of art -only the writing about art done by other worms ------------------ art is an infection -a plague an illusion unreality only sports the last war the next war is real ---we need more paranoia melt down all brass for war goods --melt the statues -melt the gods religion and politics bring peace in our time molach is back turn in your brass its time its time you know the drill............................ -------------------- oh yeah --why do birds sing ????? David Buckley wrote: > I have been trying to stay out of this contentious and ultimately > unsolvable argument but Doug, your use of the phrase "European/Canadian > socialist viewpoint" has raised my hackles. We north of the 49th parallel > get awfully tired of this knee jerk American reaction, or better I should > say, United States, since the United States is not America, just a part. > In Canada we have exactly the same funding problems for the arts as you > do while in Europe the arts in general receive a much larger support than > in North America, something which most on this list seem to think is > admirable. So to be charged with this comment which ranks with Pat > Buchanan's comments, makes me very aggravated to say the least. We are > happy to live next to the USA but please understand that you are not > always the most understanding neighbour regarding other's concerns. > > Maybe we need to ban all comment not trombone related from this list. > > Normally I find your comments very perceptive Doug but I really think you > are away off in, I was going to say "left field", but maybe that should > change to "right field" as it relates to this particular part of your > letter. For sure I am definitely going to avoid the theological > discussion. > > Dave Buckley. > > Douglas Yeo wrote: > > > Jeannette Winterson's article from "The Observer" is interesting but > > I think ultimately fails to prove its thesis. Her problem, as I see > > it, is that she comes from several a priori assumptions which cloud > > her thinking. > > > > We won't reconcile these issues here on the list, but let me point > > out a few things which caught my eye which dilute the force of the > > article. > > > > Winterson writes, "The endless rows over funding centre on an > > insecurity about the role of art in society." I disagree. The main > > issues over funding (and in this she is talking about expenditure of > > tax dollars - AKA "public funds" - to finance art) have more to do > > with the perception of the role of government than any insecurity > > over what meaning art has in the place of culture. Winterson's > > assumption that the argument has to do with insecurity is > > unnecessarily inflammatory and puts her article immediately into a > > political discussion. Which she proves several paragraphs later: > > > > "It may be that capitalism will be as successful with art as it has > > been with religion, absorbing it to the point of neutrality." Time > > out! Winterson has betrayed her two main a priori assumptions in > > this single sentence: an antipathy toward both capitalism and > > religion. Throughout the article, capitalism is set up as the > > dangerous force which works against art. That's an overly simplistic > > view. She writes from a European/Canadian socialist viewpoint. > > Government intervenes for the good of society, competition > > (capitalism) is diminished and demonized. That's one way of looking > > at the universe, but the constant mantra of "capitalism is bad and is > > at the root of all evil" gets tiresome not just because beating the > > drum is tiresome but because that particular drum is out of tune with > > itself. > > > > Ray Avery responded succinctly to Winterson's confusion over the role > > of religion in society. I share his view so need not elaborate on > > that here. Following further along, though, for Winterson to argue > > that religion has been absorbed by capitalism "to the point of > > neutrality" is a sentence which can only be penned by one utterly > > ignorant of the role a vibrant spiritual life fills in the lives of > > millions of people - including people who feel passionately about > > art. Religion is hardly neutral these days, and least of all has it > > been neutralized by capitalism. Sure, there is kitsch and confusion > > among the faithful of many stripes (see my article on excellence > > informed through my faith world-view at > > http://www.yeodoug.com/whatever.html), but purposeful confusion can't > > be confused with neutrality. > > > > Further along, in her confused paragraph about "God failing us," > > Winterson writes, "art is a clue, an intimation..." True enough, but > > that's not the whole picture. Art is also an imitation. Imitation > > of what? Of the art caused by the "first cause" artist. This is not > > the place for a discussion of the metaphysics of the Creator , > > creation and re-creation. But Winterson is incapable of even > > touching on that discussion given her own bias. > > > > Winterson is quite right that art "offers no quick fixes" but when > > she says, "Art can't change your life" she is lost at sea. Of course > > art can change your life. It's changed my life, it's changed the > > life of countless others. That's the whole point of art. It's not > > about making you think, or wonder, or contemplate or muse. Yes, > > that's all part of it, but the point is to make a DIFFERENCE in your > > LIFE. To affect your WAY of thinking, to deepen HOW you wonder. You > > bet art can change your life. > > > > Much later, Winterson argues that "art does not date." That > > statement can only be made by someone who has an egalitarian view of > > art which she herself has defined for the rest of us. Art dates > > itself all the time. What one culture or time may consider to be > > high art may be considered trivial, kitch, or meaningless today. > > Some art is timeless, but that cannot be said of all art. That > > German Rococco altarpieces are not being installed in churches today > > and are considered vulgar by many art historians does not mean they > > are not art - it's just that the altarpieces are dated. Winterson > > seems to be implying that such a work, because it is dated, was never > > art to begin with. > > > > Finally, Winterson writes, "Yes, art is traded for large sums of > > money, but this is not art's purpose, nor its nature." Really? > > Surely Winterson can't really believe that the purpose of art is > > wholly altruistic, and it has no root in money. Look at the huge > > amount of art which passes hands which really needs someone to step > > up and announce that the Emperor has no clothes. Art is full of > > scamming, money grubbing rip off artists who create their art in > > order to pull one over on the public. Post-modern visual art and > > music leads the way in this regard. If there were no pot of gold at > > the end of the sale, do you really think ALL artists would create art > > simply because the muse speaks to them? Of course not. There is a > > great deal of art - including much fine, excellent, lasting, > > important art - which was created BECAUSE of money. Commissions are > > not about creation alone - they are about money as well. Money is a > > piece of the puzzle, but Winterson can't admit that money is at the > > root of a lot of art because it flies in the face of her > > anti-capitalism argument. > > > > Winterson is right: art matters. But her thesis will need better > > defenders with more clearly articulated thoughts than she in order to > > convince people of HOW MUCH it matters. > > > > -Doug Yeo > > -- > > > > Douglas Yeo > > Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra > > Music Director, The New England Brass Band > > > > dyeo@rcn.com /// yeo@yeodoug.com > > http://www.yeodoug.com > > > > <>< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:11:01 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: The Reputation Of Teacher's As Whiners? > > But what's wrong with > > a raccoon head? No, please don't send me one, thank you. > But is >there a law that forbids the send of raccoon heads? >Seems to me, it's just another piece of junk mail. Oh it’s way worse than junk mail, it’s garbage mail and it’s not even compostable. But is it worse than some of the garbage that I get in my in-box? I actually don’t know. My wife and daughter are both such rabid feminists that my fear of getting caught, looking at pictures of Trixie with farm animals, is way stronger than testosterone. But then I’ve always found pictures to be cold and unresponsive, anyway. I still ogle trombones on ebay, though. DanP _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:58:56 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Trombone Ogling Syndrome [Was Teacher's As Whiners?] It's nice to know I'm not alone. In addition to being an exchange of ideas/tips/advice Trombone-L doubles as a support group for people suffering from this expensive and potentially marriage-breaking affliction. Trombone Ogling Syndrome, or TOS. Those of us who suffer from it are therefore Tossers. Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Pliskin I still ogle trombones on ebay, though. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:30:16 -0600 From: Fred Hudson Subject: Re: Why Art Matters///why do birds sing ????? BEAUTIFUL! DJ Another to-the-point contribution from the Poet Laureate of [TBN-L] Fred H ----- Original Message ----- From: "D.J. Kennedy" To: Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 10:58 AM Subject: [TBN-L] Why Art Matters///why do birds sing ????? > art is a commodity --a barometer of cultural values --art in grade school > is mostly being taught by ''education'' types rather than ''fine art > ''types > -----craft--craftsmanship --work wormanship -inventiveness -or ability to > execute ideas - little susie the only thing left from > grade school is that little hand print in clay after the firebombing > charred remains > of a writer//poet a small bronze survived the apartment fire chicago > 197? > ------------------- > if you america would quit teaching art even music and concentrate more > on sports > we would have less homos fags queers and lesbos > then amerikkka could generate better soldiers in the quest for > colonialization > and corporatization of the planet ---art is not funded -people are > funded > their public displays of mastturbatory ejackulations foisted upon the > unwashed > publico are neither wanted nor understood -let them make floats for the > rosebowl parade !!!!!!!! music has only one place -martial and marital > music -- > before the battle and taps at the end -- > big bronze statues are about politics and only about politics -- > thus the scrapping of public art after the fall of the russianreds > burn the creaky rotten violins and pluck the hairs of the bald and > let the guitar > reign as punk kings crank up the woofers --only the young need > overstimulation > painting is dead /// close the art departments /// makemovies > instead > vincent van gogh is still getting pay raises !!! if your kid picks up > a paint brush > whack that kid on the hand ---get a job --painting dont pay nothin and its > for sissies > close the art departments -if it wasnt for the funding the perfessors > would be > selling shoes rather than misleading the sorry followers of the post > impressionist > pre raphaelite abstract expressionist photo realism cubist > surrealistc popcult > wannabees ----art is only for the rocka fellows and the riche -only the > graduates > of the best schools have learned the connections and corruption and > dedacance > of the evil kineval empire that rots from the centre ---public art > is the funding of cronies and car worshippers > boyfrenz gurl frenz and suckoffs politics as usual having very > much to do with grant writing and propaganda generated by > hypnotherapist writers in the > mass media telling the public that ------this is art ------that they > need it --- > the public is being ripped off anyway -so who cares if maplethorpe and > jars of > pisschrists and cow parts in jugs shock the publico --the publico > needs to be shocked ?????????? that is the question ????? > the opening of a new show is being catered by > ............................ > the stuff the critics puke on -the stuff by rockwell --is not even > considered to be art > lawrence welk --is not music ---no funding > some ball of string done but a crazed baglady in the loony bin -that is > art > there needs to be another word for it than art --- > the idea that a piece of paper with scribbles on it is valued > or a person who makes strange noises is valued > moves in strange ways > well being able to beat up another person that is much more easy to > understand > so if anybody wants to fite ---join the gyreens > cause im just too busy workin on my latest projects > art cars ----mobile expressions of 2nd admentment rights and recycling of > auto finish > painted luggage ---take the fright out of flight -- > silver and gold crosses --always popular > practice trombone --concert coming up > make birdhuts ---as if birds needed any help > think about making another pen -----because i finally almost got > paid for > a pen i made oct ----dec on 1997 -- > looking around at the stacks of drawings paintings metalworks > finished started or in conceptual stages lotta works -no pay > ------------------- > the dealers the galleries the museums foundations its all about > monet?????????its all about the money and jobs for snoots shirts and > stuckups with the connexxions > keeping the right people in and everybody else out -the declarers of the > daffinition > without permission or electoral appointment by the supremes > ---------------- > art historians are pale worms who have never seen the light of day never > seen a work of art -only the writing about art done by other worms > ------------------ > art is an infection -a plague an illusion unreality only sports the last > war the next war > is real ---we need more paranoia > melt down all brass for war goods --melt the statues -melt the gods > > religion and politics bring peace in our time > molach is back turn in your brass > its time its time > you know the drill............................ > -------------------- > oh yeah --why do birds sing ????? > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:34:28 -0500 From: Dale Cruse Subject: FW: Soul Eyes No trombone-related content here, but I thought some of you would like to know. ---- Dale Cruse www.dalecruse.com Setting you up for online success. > Mal Waldron dies at 77 > > > Brussels, Belgium-AP -- Jazz pianist Mal Waldron has died.The 77-year-old > played his last concert in France only two weeks ago. He'd been living in > Belgium for the past decade.Waldron's heydey came in the 1950's and early > '60's, working with jazz legends Billy Holiday, Charles Mingus and John > Coltrane.He was Holliday's last accompanist in the 1950s, up until her > death in 1959. He worked first in New York before moving to Germany, > gaining popularity as a performer throughout Europe and in Japan.Waldron's > last recording was called "One more Time." It was released in October. His > most famous ballad was "Soul Eyes," which was originally written for > Coltrane. It became a jazz classic, covered by musicians including Stan > Getz and Anthony Braxton. > > His manager says Waldron died Monday in Belgium of complications caused by > cancer. Funeral arrangements have not been announced. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:38:13 -0600 From: Fred Hudson Subject: Re: Trombone Ogling Syndrome [Was Teacher's As Whiners?] From: "Keith Marr" > It's nice to know I'm not alone. > > In addition to being an exchange of > ideas/tips/advice Trombone-L doubles as a support group for people suffering > from this expensive and potentially marriage-breaking affliction. > > Trombone Ogling Syndrome, or TOS. Those of us who suffer from it are > therefore Tossers. And those of us who succumb to the temptation to actually buy suffer from Gear Acquisition Syndrome (GAS) and are therefore Gassers. Fred H ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 15:30:36 EST From: BassBonist@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Trombone Ogling Syndrome [Was Teacher's As Whiners?] > Trombone Ogling Syndrome, or TOS. Those of us who suffer from it are > therefore Tossers. And those of us who succumb to the temptation to actually buy suffer from Gear Acquisition Syndrome (GAS) and are therefore Gassers. Fred H Trombonists who are wasteful Gassers, including those with SUVs (Sonically Useful Valves) should call the EPA: Equipment Purchasers Anonymous ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:02:29 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Trombone Ogling Syndrome [Was Teacher's As Whiners?] > > Trombone Ogling Syndrome, or TOS. Those of us who suffer from it are >> therefore Tossers. > >And those of us who succumb to the temptation to actually buy suffer from >Gear Acquisition Syndrome (GAS) and are therefore Gassers. >Fred H > >Trombonists who are wasteful Gassers, including those with SUVs (Sonically >Useful Valves) should call the EPA: > >Equipment Purchasers Anonymous ============ Beano is a useful anti-gas preparation sold in the US. Not a drug, just an enzyme that helps digest the indigestible vegetable sugars that cause gas in the first place. What we gear acquisition freaks REALLY need is something called "Bone-o". S. -- (Sam Burtis, proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring only the finest new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at [still under construction], email us at , or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:43:41 -0000 From: Edward Solomon Subject: Re: old besson tenor > Can anyone tell me where I might find details about a Besson tenor trombone > I have with serial numbers 15418/15419 (slide/bell)? My understanding is > that it's about 50 years old... I think, judging by the serial number, that it dates from 1936-8. So that would make it almost 70 years old. Is it possible that it's a Besson "Prototype"? I would imagine it has a rather small bore - about 0.483". __________________________________________ Edward Solomon British Trombone Society Webmaster mailto:webmaster@trombone-society.org.uk Visit "The Trombonist Online" - the online magazine of the British Trombone Society http://www.trombone-society.org.uk __________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 15:12:48 -0800 From: Alex Heitlinger Subject: teaching predicament Dear List, I have a student who says he can't practice on Saturdays because he is Jewish. Have any of you encountered this situation before? I don't want to be intolerant of his faith but I also want to encourage him to practice every day. What can I do? -Alex __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:52:16 -0600 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: teaching predicament Let him take Saturdays off. If he practices the other six days he will be fine. Use this as a reason to make sure he doesn't miss any of the other six. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE- > L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Alex Heitlinger > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 5:13 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] teaching predicament > > Dear List, > I have a student who says he can't practice on > Saturdays because he is Jewish. Have any of you > encountered this situation before? I don't want to be > intolerant of his faith but I also want to encourage > him to practice every day. What can I do? > -Alex > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 15:48:54 -0800 From: "James W. Yardley" Subject: Bill Adam Routine If there are any trombone players on the list that play the Bill Adam routine, can you please e-mail me off list. I have some questions about playing the routine on the trombone. Thanks. Take care, James ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 15:53:31 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: teaching predicament --- Jeff Albert wrote: > Let him take Saturdays off. If he practices the other > six days he will > be fine. Use this as a reason to make sure he doesn't > miss any of the > other six. Good point...and you can, if you think he's ready for it, prescribe something really strenuous to do on Fridays, kind of like the way Phil Teele puts those crazy scales on Day 3 of his routine and tells you to take day 4 easy. Also, if I understand the laws correctly, he can practice after sundown on Saturday. You might suggest to him that it would be a good idea to practice after sundown on Saturday, even for a very short time just to keep contact. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:55:02 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Re: Bill Adam Routine On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, James W. Yardley wrote: > If there are any trombone players on the list that play the Bill Adam > routine, can you please e-mail me off list. I have some questions about > playing the routine on the trombone. Thanks. There's a version in Jack Robinson's "Musical Tuba Playing." Carole, who can answer no questions about the routine, but was at the Bill Adam 85th birthday party... cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 23:58:03 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: teaching predicament From: "Alex Heitlinger" > Dear List, > I have a student who says he can't practice on > Saturdays because he is Jewish. Have any of you > encountered this situation before? I don't want to be > intolerant of his faith but I also want to encourage > him to practice every day. What can I do? > -Alex Take a rest from teaching on Sunday. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 00:04:17 -0000 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: teaching predicament I would suggest that you emphasise that he must practice all the more diligently on all the other days. One day of in the week shouldn't do any harm then. It sometimes helps them to stay interested if they get a day off I find. I've had problems with students who've practiced all hours they can and gone stale, and I suggested to them to practice really well but have a day off once in a while. It can also help in the development of the embouchure if they rest it occasionally. I don't know how long your guy has been playing but if he's in the first 2-3 years of learning it would be a positive move anyway. I think it takes that long to get the chops strong enough for constant use. Hope that helps. Keith in Bb/F/D www.allthingsmusic.co.uk/entertainers/keith.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Heitlinger" To: Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 11:12 PM Subject: [TBN-L] teaching predicament > Dear List, > I have a student who says he can't practice on > Saturdays because he is Jewish. Have any of you > encountered this situation before? I don't want to be > intolerant of his faith but I also want to encourage > him to practice every day. What can I do? > -Alex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:14:21 -0500 From: Dale Cruse Subject: Book request I was wondering if anyone has a gently used copy of Roger Bobo=B9s book =B3Mastering the Tuba, v.1=B2 that they=B9d be willing to sell. Please contact me off-list if you (or someone you know) does. Thanks. ----=20 Dale Cruse www.dalecruse.com Setting you up for online success. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:27:45 -0800 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: teaching predicament Alex, --- Alex Heitlinger wrote: > Dear List, > I have a student who says he can't practice on > Saturdays because he is Jewish. Have any of you > encountered this situation before? I don't want to > be > intolerant of his faith but I also want to encourage > him to practice every day. What can I do? > -Alex > I tell my studets they need at "least" 7 hours a week (most of mine are between 12 & 16 yrs old). So if they claim there's one day they can't practice, (and you know they'll cheat on the day of the lesson too), how THEY devide up the 7 hrs a week is up to them. After missing another day (and you know they do), & they get really tired of putting in 7 hours in 4 days, they eventually find a way to even it out. > Tom ===== Tom Izzo Principal Trombonist, Bristol Renaissance Faire Bass Trombonist, West Suburban Symphony Orchestra Alto/Tenor/Bass/Contrabass Trombones, Tubas, Bass Trumpet, Euphonium, Electric Bass, Percussion http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ (630) 983-1985 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:29:17 -0500 From: Dale Cruse Subject: Re: teaching predicament Even if this student can't practice on Saturdays doesn't mean he can't do something productive musically. Make Saturdays a day that he listens to lots of music - and lots of trombone recordings. I'm no expert on the Jewish faith, but is listening to music allowed on Saturdays? ---- Dale Cruse www.dalecruse.com Setting you up for online success. On 12/5/02 6:12 PM, "Alex Heitlinger" wrote: > Dear List, > I have a student who says he can't practice on > Saturdays because he is Jewish. Have any of you > encountered this situation before? I don't want to be > intolerant of his faith but I also want to encourage > him to practice every day. What can I do? > -Alex ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 00:42:37 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: teaching predicament > > I have a student who says he can't practice on > > Saturdays because he is Jewish. >Even if this student can't practice on Saturdays doesn't mean he can't >do >something productive musically. Depending on how religious he is, he may or may not be able to turn on the stereo, on the Sabbath. That would be considered creating a spark. And he may or may not be able to work on the Sabbath, which might include practicing. But he would have to be extremely religious if he couldn’t PLAY on the Sabbath. See if he can just put in some face-time, playing with the trombone, enjoying himself on the Sabbath. But I may be way off on this one. I’m familiar with the Old Testament, but there are lots of interpretations of the Old Testament. DanP A nice Jewvish boy from Nu Yawk, but not a very religious one. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:57:39 -0600 From: Jeff Oien Subject: Giardinelli Symphony B Rim Size? Does anybody know what the official rim diameter of the Symphony B rim was in millimeters? Thanks. Jeff Oien ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:12:24 -0500 From: Christopher Balas Subject: Re: teaching predicament Hi all, I have to agree with everyone's opinion on this question. I would also like to say that I am quite impressed with the way each person who responded respected this student's religion and suggested ways for he or she to be productive while still being true to his or her beliefs. The world should take lessons in respect from trombonists. Best, Chris Balas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:17:14 -0600 From: Gary Greenhoe Subject: Why Art Matters///why do birds sing ????? Subject: RE: [TBN-L] Why Art Matters///why do birds sing ????? List, I find this short and to the point. Gary Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one. -- Stella Adler ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:38:18 -0600 From: BandBoy089 Subject: Trombone Christmas CD Does anybody know of a place online where one could purchase Trombone Christmas CD's? I am also looking for just Trombone CD's. If any of you have made trombone CD's, that would also be great. Sites to download mp3's would work as well. Thanks, Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:46:57 -0500 From: Roger Hecht Subject: Re: teaching predicament At 03:12 PM 12/5/2002 -0800, Alex Heitlinger wrote: >Dear List, >I have a student who says he can't practice on >Saturdays because he is Jewish. Have any of you >encountered this situation before? I don't want to be >intolerant of his faith but I also want to encourage >him to practice every day. What can I do? >-Alex > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com Most of the advice you received on this is applicable. Particularly important if you're going for seven days is Gabe's correct observation that the Sabbath is over at sundown. Jewish holidays run from sundown to sundown, meaning your student will not be practicing after Friday sundown. Listening to music on the Sabbath? Depends on how religious you are. Very religious Jews will essentially "shut down" on Saturday. Others may not go that far. Here I'm not entirely sure. Old baseball fans will remember that Sandy Koufax had to work his pitching schedule around the holidays. He wouldn't pitch on Yon Kippur. I'm not sure about Saturdays, but I think he passed them up. By way of authority, I learned this stuff in Hebrew school long long ago. I practice none of it. Roger Hecht ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:20:56 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Why Art Matters///why do birds sing ????? short and tweet Gary Greenhoe wrote: > Subject: RE: [TBN-L] Why Art Matters///why do birds sing ????? > > List, > > I find this short and to the point. > Gary > > Life beats down and crushes the soul and art reminds you that you have one. > -- Stella Adler ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:57:45 -0600 From: "Richard Z. Johnson" Subject: Re: teaching predicament Missing one day a week won't hurt his playing......in my humble opinion. Let him spend his Saturday worshiping. -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Alex Heitlinger Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 5:13 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] teaching predicament Dear List, I have a student who says he can't practice on Saturdays because he is Jewish. Have any of you encountered this situation before? I don't want to be intolerant of his faith but I also want to encourage him to practice every day. What can I do? -Alex __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 03:06:38 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: teaching predicament >Listening to music on the Sabbath? Depends on how religious you are. Very >religious Jews will essentially "shut down" on Saturday. Others may not go >that far. Here I'm not entirely sure. But I can’t help thinking that it’s his family’s day of rest that he’s talking about here. They want to have one day’s rest from having to listen to him practice trombone. DanP _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:12:51 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Re: teaching predicament As a person who has always avoided playing and practicing on Sundays, I would suggest: He's got to make sure he is getting done in 6 days what others will get done in 7. If so he will have earned a rest for himself on the 7th day. Advise him that he will need to learn to get back on the horn and up to full speed immediately after the day off (in this case that could be Saturday night after sunset or Sunday in the AM) because there will be times that an important performance will take place at that time and he will need to know how to be at his best and not feel like he has just taken a day off. In my case, it was the Monday morning 10am lesson that was a challenge after having taken Sunday off the horn. My solution was to get to school early on Monday morning so by 10 am I would have been practicing and resting my chops for 3 hours already. So in his case, if he has an important concert or recital Saturday night after sundown, he'll need to plan his Friday playing carefully to use it to his best advantage all the way up to the start of the Sabbath. Personally, if I have worked hard for 6 days, my mind and choppers can use a rest, a whole day of no buzzing, playing, thinking, trying, blowing, etc. I think a clear mind is very beneficial to the long term health of a brass player, and for me, the rest day helps to keep the mind clear when you get back to it the day after the rest day. Sad to say, I have seen some players I know of suffer in their playing due to what I would call "fuzzy mind calisthenics" that are going on while they are playing. If they go on long enough, they can be very hard to eradicate. Also, in the longer term, if you think you can talk to him about this, if he is particularly devout he will have to figure out how he is going to deal with being asked to perform with ensembles that he is involved with on the Sabbath. For some, it's OK to play a concert if absolutely required by the ensemble, and it's your primary means of earning a living and your only other choice is to give up your long term employment in that ensemble (such as a professional symphony orchestra). For others, there is no acceptable circumstance under which they would perform on the Sabbath. These are issues he needs to be thinking about--how he's going to handle them in the future. The Israel Philharmonic does not perform or rehearse on the Sabbath, but there still are problems for the small handful of very devout members of that ensemble (I am told at any one time there are usually 4-5 such players in that orchestra). They can't ride the bus to a tour concert taking place on Saturday night if the bus leaves before the sun has set. Sometimes players have had to walk considerable distances in order to get to the concert hall on time, if the bus leaves before the sun has set. There is an excellent soprano with a world-wide career, Janice Chandler, she lives in DC and she is a devout 7th Day Adventist. She will only sing on her Sabbath if the music is spiritual in nature. So if she is doing, say, Orff's Carmina Burana she will either request that there not be a concert on that particular night, or she turns down the gig, even if it's some big orchestra and conductor. But her voice is so superb that they are willing to go to lengths to have her sing with them so that is how she gets away with that. The rest of us would have a harder time doing that. Although in our last contract the upper limit of Sunday services was doubled, and if the orchestra should get to the point where all of those Sundays are actually used, it might be so much that I'll have to think if I can continue in my post or not. Also, I have wondered what the legal footing would be, if a Sabbath related court ruling has ever been issued in terms of an employer being obligated to retain an employee or hire an employee who could not work on one day of the week due to religious beliefs. Would it be legal to fire an employee if, say, the company decided to open it's doors on Saturday and a Jewish person said, "sorry, I can't work that shift"? Any lawyers on the list who can shed light on that? Just an aside, but I've wondered about that. Anyway, there is more to this issue than meets the eye, but if your student is wise everything will be fine. I am sure you will encourage him in every way you can. Randy Campora Baltimore Symphony Orchestra ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 23:00:40 EST From: David Carter Subject: Re: Giardinelli Symphony B Rim Size? I don't know the size in millimeters, but I had on once, and as I recall It was close in size, both rim and cup to a Bach 2g. DC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 00:08:11 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: teaching predicament ok very good student and devotee !!!!!!!!!! he can practice and he can worship the lord best part is he can worship with his heart every day -7 days work is for 6 days so he can worhip the lord by making a joyful noise on shabbat just as the result of prayer should be a righteous path playing from the center in the spirit of a rejoycing spirit should be the result of practice as long as he shuts books and plays the holy music from inside his heart christians must also be thinking when i play my trombone in church is this work ???????? -------in other words the holy day is the greatest test yet it is only a reminder that for the prophets each day is holy -------------------------------------------------------------------- you know that avi lebowitz has studied with slide hampton -------------------------- further you may instruct you student to pray and then try to play in the spirit of prayer but he should ask his rabbi first if there is any doubt lest the guilt become burden which is the proclivity of such conscience --------------------------- and the dark angel may steal from the good nothing with the shield of judah lo though i march thru the field of briars i will not hit a false note because im on the 50 yard line which means i got a 50 50 chance of being right in the middle of a bu nch of babes i mean heavenly bodies ------------------------------------------------------- david sinned in many ways yet was aman after the heart of the lord man is concerned overly with the word of the law and not the true spirit of the law for god is a loving god and a forgiving god let the answer come thru prayer and fasting in some ways not practicing may be seen as a way of fasting what day does the day of days come on ????? and what day will your spirit leave your body ????? ------------------------- furthermore if the trombone is not an instrument for worshipping the lord then it is an instrument for worshipping the devil deceiver father of the lie and ho houses bars and broadway yes its a world of sin -and it seems that only a lawyer or preacher know what to do --if you would spend more time on your knees and readin the bible you would know the answers instead bein all high and mighty if that boy think that horn is gonna lead him to the pit you better tell him get with it son !!!!!! give em h/// daniel 10th position Randy Campora wrote: > As a person who has always avoided playing and practicing on Sundays, I > would suggest: > > He's got to make sure he is getting done in 6 days what others will get > done in 7. If so he will have earned a rest for himself on the 7th day. > > Advise him that he will need to learn to get back on the horn and up to > full speed immediately after the day off (in this case that could be > Saturday night after sunset or Sunday in the AM) because there will be > times that an important performance will take place at that time and he > will need to know how to be at his best and not feel like he has just taken > a day off. In my case, it was the Monday morning 10am lesson that was a > challenge after having taken Sunday off the horn. My solution was to get to > school early on Monday morning so by 10 am I would have been practicing and > resting my chops for 3 hours already. So in his case, if he has an > important concert or recital Saturday night after sundown, he'll need to > plan his Friday playing carefully to use it to his best advantage all the > way up to the start of the Sabbath. > > Personally, if I have worked hard for 6 days, my mind and choppers can use > a rest, a whole day of no buzzing, playing, thinking, trying, blowing, etc. > I think a clear mind is very beneficial to the long term health of a brass > player, and for me, the rest day helps to keep the mind clear when you get > back to it the day after the rest day. Sad to say, I have seen some players > I know of suffer in their playing due to what I would call "fuzzy mind > calisthenics" that are going on while they are playing. If they go on long > enough, they can be very hard to eradicate. > > Also, in the longer term, if you think you can talk to him about this, if > he is particularly devout he will have to figure out how he is going to > deal with being asked to perform with ensembles that he is involved with on > the Sabbath. For some, it's OK to play a concert if absolutely required by > the ensemble, and it's your primary means of earning a living and your only > other choice is to give up your long term employment in that ensemble (such > as a professional symphony orchestra). For others, there is no acceptable > circumstance under which they would perform on the Sabbath. These are > issues he needs to be thinking about--how he's going to handle them in the > future. > > The Israel Philharmonic does not perform or rehearse on the Sabbath, but > there still are problems for the small handful of very devout members of > that ensemble (I am told at any one time there are usually 4-5 such players > in that orchestra). They can't ride the bus to a tour concert taking place > on Saturday night if the bus leaves before the sun has set. Sometimes > players have had to walk considerable distances in order to get to the > concert hall on time, if the bus leaves before the sun has set. > > There is an excellent soprano with a world-wide career, Janice Chandler, > she lives in DC and she is a devout 7th Day Adventist. She will only sing > on her Sabbath if the music is spiritual in nature. So if she is doing, > say, Orff's Carmina Burana she will either request that there not be a > concert on that particular night, or she turns down the gig, even if it's > some big orchestra and conductor. But her voice is so superb that they are > willing to go to lengths to have her sing with them so that is how she gets > away with that. The rest of us would have a harder time doing that. > Although in our last contract the upper limit of Sunday services was > doubled, and if the orchestra should get to the point where all of those > Sundays are actually used, it might be so much that I'll have to think if I > can continue in my post or not. > > Also, I have wondered what the legal footing would be, if a Sabbath related > court ruling has ever been issued in terms of an employer being obligated > to retain an employee or hire an employee who could not work on one day of > the week due to religious beliefs. Would it be legal to fire an employee > if, say, the company decided to open it's doors on Saturday and a Jewish > person said, "sorry, I can't work that shift"? Any lawyers on the list who > can shed light on that? Just an aside, but I've wondered about that. > > Anyway, there is more to this issue than meets the eye, but if your student > is wise everything will be fine. I am sure you will encourage him in every > way you can. > > Randy Campora > Baltimore Symphony Orchestra ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 4 Dec 2002 to 5 Dec 2002 (#2002-145) ***************************************************************