Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 13 Nov 2002 to 14 Nov 2002 (#2002-124) There are 38 messages totalling 1739 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Tympani, Schmimpani (4) 2. Who invented tympani anyway? (2) 3. long tones instruction 4. Tympani, Schmympani 5. Parallel question on contras (2) 6. nicked, pitted mouthpieces (7) 7. 12c in a bass bone? 8. SV: [TBN-L] Tympani, Schmimpani (3) 9. Getzen Website (6) 10. Who invented timpani anyway 11. Large mouthpieces, was Re: 12c in a bass bone? 12. Allora trombones 13. Long tones after Remington (5) 14. Christmas Carols (2) 15. MILES ANDERSON plays his slide Trombone again]///small bell news ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:48:53 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Tympani, Schmimpani From: > Timpani or Tympani... > > Who cares? > > They should always be called: PAUKEN ! Sounds like someone being sick. In France, they're called "Timbales", which unfortunately in English speaking countries is the name for a pair of much smaller Latin-American drums. Confusing, ain't it? I'd like to know where the "tympani" spelling came from, because it certainly does not appear to be of European origin. Wouldn't think it was American either. They tend to simplify spellings, rather than the reverse. Anyone have any ideas on this? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:54:42 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? From: "s76lewis" > I thought it was spelled tympanii as its plural form. No, "tympanii" is Ameritalian for kettle drumzes. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:12:12 +0100 From: Simon Bailey Subject: Re: Tympani, Schmimpani On Thu, 2002-11-14 at 09:48, Adrian Drover wrote: > Sounds like someone being sick. thats german for you... ;) > I'd like to know where the "tympani" spelling came from, because it > certainly does not appear to be of European origin. Wouldn't think it was > American either. They tend to simplify spellings, rather than the reverse. > Anyone have any ideas on this? the spelling tympani comes from the latin word tympanum, meaning small hand drum or tambourine. this word in turn comes from the ancient greek word tympanon, meaning the same thing. basically any word using y as a vowel in the middle of it generally comes to our language by way of ancient greek and latin. the later form of spelling timpanum is also correct, however this is a form of latin that turned up after the demise of the west roman empire (c. 500ad). the christian monks of the early middle ages changed a lot of spelling as well as large parts of the latin language which makes vernacular latin from this period sometimes very difficult to translate. trombone content: as far as i can tell, "trombone" does not seem to have latin origins... :o) more boring facts from the alps, brought to you by, simon. -- Don't be irreplaceable. If you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 05:33:31 EST From: SteveInside@AOL.COM Subject: Re: long tones instruction In a message dated 13/11/02 21:14:54 GMT Standard Time, alan@PARTIS.COM writes: > Please feel free to advise me (privately would be fine) as to what you have > found to be your best exercises to build and maintain best tone quality and > stability, flexibility, and range. I'm particularly interested in > specifics about your long tone exercises ================================== Alan, this topic came up recently and if it's any use, I saved many of the posts. I'll be glad to forward them to you if you are interested in seeing them. Regards, Steve C ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:00:41 +0100 From: Howard Weiner Subject: Re: Tympani, Schmympani At 08:48 14.11.02 +0000, Adrian Drover wrote: >I'd like to know where the "tympani" spelling came from, because it >certainly does not appear to be of European origin. Wouldn't think it was >American either. They tend to simplify spellings, rather than the reverse. >Anyone have any ideas on this? Harvard Dictionary of Music: "In modern writings tympani occurs as a misspelling of timpani." Sibyl Marcuse, Musical Instruments: A Comprehensive Dictionary: "Tympani, (modern) misspelling of timpani" "Tympanum, pl. tympana (Lat.) [Gk. tympanon], 1. hand frame drum of ancient Rome, taken over from Greece.... 2. later the word is applied to kettledrums; Virdung in 1511 relates that "recently" introduced kettledrums of copper were called tympana. The word lives on today as timpani." "Tympane [Lat. tympanum], OEngl., MEngl.: kettledrum." So the spelling with "y" certainly is of European origin, but in modern usage it is clearly incorrect. The designation "timp" (or "timps") is an abbreviation that has come into common use. Just like "cello," which is actually merely a diminutive ending; the instrument's full name is "violoncello," i.e., "small violone" or to carry it even further "small-large viol." To bring things back to the list's actual topic: On old manuscript title pages and in old scores, the abbreviation "tromb." is often used for both "trombone" AND "tromba" (trumpet). Howard -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner If vegetarians eat only vegetables, what do humanitarians eat? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:36:47 +0100 From: Ben van Dijk Subject: Parallel question on contras Dear friends, I have for you a nice picture and some information of a beautiful contrabass trombone owned by my friend Rolf Handrow of the Leipzig Gewandhauss Orchester. Please go to: http://www.basstrombone.nl/default.asp?subj=admini&item=donews&method=do edit&newsid=73 and you will find it. Greetings, Ben van Dijk Basstrombone Rotterdam Philharmonic Rotterdam Conservatory Royal Northern College of Music, Manchester www.basstrombone.nl ben@basstrombone.nl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:44:57 +0000 From: robert.osterlund@ATTBI.COM Subject: nicked, pitted mouthpieces Folks: I am trying out an older mouthpiece whose rim is a bit rough, with many small nicks and pits. (Why? Because it fits and plays really well with the instrument, better than the other mouthpieces in my collection. I was sold the trombone and mouthpiece in combination.) Does anyone have experience playing on a nicked and pitted mouthpiece? I don't see any advantages (of course), but are there significant disadvantages? Berto -- robert.osterlund@attbi.com http://earlymusichicago.home.attbi.com/ http://earlymusichicago.org/earlymusichicago/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:41:16 +0100 From: Ben van Dijk Subject: Parallel question on contras Sorry, You have to go to www.basstrombone.nl and go to general news, then you will find the Piering contra item. All the best, Ben van Dijk Basstrombone Rotterdam Philharmonic Rotterdam Conservatory Royal Northern College of Music, Manchester www.basstrombone.nl ben@basstrombone.nl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:44:54 -0500 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: nicked, pitted mouthpieces Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but robert.osterlund@ATTBI.COM > Folks: > > I am trying out an older mouthpiece whose rim is a bit rough, with many small > nicks and pits. (Why? Because it fits and plays really well with the > instrument, better than the other mouthpieces in my collection. I was sold > the > trombone and mouthpiece in combination.) > > Does anyone have experience playing on a nicked and pitted mouthpiece? I > don't > see any advantages (of course), but are there significant disadvantages? > > Berto > > -- > robert.osterlund@attbi.com > http://earlymusichicago.home.attbi.com/ > http://earlymusichicago.org/earlymusichicago/ One possible advantage would be that it'd be less likely to slip around, especially if you're a "juicy" player. ;-) The biggest disadvantage is that the nicks and pits can harbor all sorts of microscopic fauna, and can abrade/cut the skin to allow entry of the fauna. So, you can give yourself zits, cold sores, etc. Some folks are allergic to brass, and can get skin irritations. Another disadvantage is that one unconsciously distorts the chops to compensate for the nicks, so it makes sense not to start any bad habits. If you like the mouthpiece, see if you can find a new one, or get the old one re-plated. Walter Barrett "If the lips are gone, the teeth are cold." -Chinese proverb. "Human mouths have two lips: whether they speak good or evil is up to you." -Chinese proverb. Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:48:26 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Tympani, Schmimpani At 08:48 AM 11/14/2002 +0000, Adrian Drover wrote: >I'd like to know where the "tympani" spelling came from, because it >certainly does not appear to be of European origin. Wouldn't think it was >American either. They tend to simplify spellings, rather than the reverse. >Anyone have any ideas on this? Hmmmm. A "y" inserted in the middle of the word for no apparent reason? It can only be Welch. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:58:00 -0500 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: 12c in a bass bone? Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but john burton > I found when moving from a Bach 1 1/2 G to a Schilke 59 my articulation > goes all the way out the spit valve (water key?).. > > This on a Bach 50B3. Oh well, guess that's what happens when you make > the jump to a bass after playing a pea-shooter for years... > > > But ya gotta LOVE those big pedal notes on the Schilke!!! > > > --==jb==-- John- The Bachs tend to have a flatter rim and sharper inside edge compared to the Schilkes, which are a little more rounder. That can account for the difference in articulation (as can differences in the throat size and cup volume.) It just takes a little more tongue and air to get the same snap as the Bach. For me, Schilkes don't hurt so much, especially after lots of high notes. You can get Schilkes with different rim profiles, and they even offer some of them as stock, as opposed to custom. Walter Barrett "Most people hate the taste of beer to begin with. It is, however, a prejudice that many people have been able to overcome." -Winston Churchill Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:03:48 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Marius_Helg=E5?= Subject: SV: [TBN-L] Tympani, Schmimpani > Hmmmm. A "y" inserted in the middle of the word for no apparent > reason? It can only be Welch. Wouldn't "Tympani" be a far too short word for the welch language? and where are all the double l-s? Marius Helgå Norway ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 07:06:53 -0800 From: Joshua Brown Subject: Getzen Website Hi all, If you're interested, check out the recently updated Getzen website: http://www.getzen.com/ If you type in the address and still receive the old website, then the new server information hasn't totally saturated the internet. Take care, Joshua Brown __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:16:32 EST From: ALFORDMB@AOL.COM Subject: Re: nicked, pitted mouthpieces In a message dated 11/14/2002 8:46:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, robert.osterlund@ATTBI.COM writes: > Does anyone have experience playing on a nicked and pitted mouthpiece? I don' > t > see any advantages (of course), but are there significant disadvantages? ========== I have a little experience in this matter. I occasionally use a fifty year old 12C equivalent on my original high school instrument. As you might expect it is significantly "dinged up" by now, and not very slick. That doesn't seem to bother my playing. More pertinent though, I recently bought a used Bach 6 1/2AL from a repair shop. Before I plopped my money down I commented that there were "some pretty bad" nicks and scratches. They offered to "buff" them out for me for no extra charge and said they could do it without disturbing the plating. They did. Dents and impressions were worked out with a small hammer and then the whole piece polished on a wheel. It was almost like new. I assume from this experience that it would cost very little to have a technician go over your mpc and do some reasonable reconditioning. Mine took about five minutes. Good luck, Mike Alford ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:14:43 +0000 From: robert.osterlund@ATTBI.COM Subject: Re: nicked, pitted mouthpieces > Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but robert.osterlund@ATTBI.COM > > > Folks: > > > > I am trying out an older mouthpiece whose rim is a bit rough, with many small > > nicks and pits. (Why? Because it fits and plays really well with the > > instrument, better than the other mouthpieces in my collection. I was sold > > the > > trombone and mouthpiece in combination.) > > > > Does anyone have experience playing on a nicked and pitted mouthpiece? I > > don't > > see any advantages (of course), but are there significant disadvantages? > > > > Berto > > ... > > The biggest disadvantage is that the nicks and pits can harbor all sorts of > microscopic fauna, and can abrade/cut the skin to allow entry of the fauna. > So, you can give yourself zits, cold sores, etc. Some folks are allergic to > brass, and can get skin irritations. > > ... > > If you like the mouthpiece, see if you can find a new one, or get the old > one re-plated. > > Walter Barrett Walter: About the "microscopic fauna": I suppose using a disinfectant would help mitigate that problem? I'd thought about the replating option. The mouthpiece surface appears to be silver. Would replating just overlay an even coating of silver with minimal smoothing effect? Or would replating fill in the nicks and pits? My local instrument repairman doesn't do replating. Can you (or anyone) recommend a business (especially one with a web site) that provides this service? Also, how much does (a) silver or (b) gold replating typically cost? Berto -- robert.osterlund@attbi.com http://earlymusichicago.home.attbi.com/ http://earlymusichicago.org/earlymusichicago/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:36:43 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: SV: [TBN-L] Tympani, Schmimpani At 04:03 PM 11/14/2002 +0100, Marius Helgå wrote: > > Hmmmm. A "y" inserted in the middle of the word for no apparent > > reason? It can only be Welch. > >Wouldn't "Tympani" be a far too short word for the welch language? > >and where are all the double l-s? > >Marius Helgå >Norway Maybe it is an abbreviation for Tympani-a-gryd-vyng-y-brynboom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:41:34 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: SV: [TBN-L] Tympani, Schmimpani From: "Marius Helgå" > > Hmmmm. A "y" inserted in the middle of the word for no apparent > > reason? It can only be Welch. > > Wouldn't "Tympani" be a far too short word for the welch language? > > and where are all the double l-s? In Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllandysilliogogogoch I think. Oh drat, my spell checker just blew up. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:49:04 -0500 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: nicked, pitted mouthpieces Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but robert.osterlund@ATTBI.COM >> Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but robert.osterlund@ATTBI.COM >> >>> Folks: >>> >>> I am trying out an older mouthpiece whose rim is a bit rough, with many > small >>> nicks and pits. (Why? Because it fits and plays really well with the >>> instrument, better than the other mouthpieces in my collection. I was sold >>> the >>> trombone and mouthpiece in combination.) >>> >>> Does anyone have experience playing on a nicked and pitted mouthpiece? I >>> don't >>> see any advantages (of course), but are there significant disadvantages? >>> >>> Berto >> >> ... >> >> The biggest disadvantage is that the nicks and pits can harbor all sorts of >> microscopic fauna, and can abrade/cut the skin to allow entry of the fauna. >> So, you can give yourself zits, cold sores, etc. Some folks are allergic to >> brass, and can get skin irritations. >> >> ... >> >> If you like the mouthpiece, see if you can find a new one, or get the old >> one re-plated. >> >> Walter Barrett > > Walter: > > About the "microscopic fauna": I suppose using a disinfectant would help > mitigate that problem? > > I'd thought about the replating option. The mouthpiece surface appears to be > silver. Would replating just overlay an even coating of silver with minimal > smoothing effect? Or would replating fill in the nicks and pits? > > My local instrument repairman doesn't do replating. Can you (or anyone) > recommend a business (especially one with a web site) that provides this > service? > > Also, how much does (a) silver or (b) gold replating typically cost? > > Berto > > -- > robert.osterlund@attbi.com > http://earlymusichicago.home.attbi.com/ > http://earlymusichicago.org/earlymusichicago/ Well, in the Chicago area, there's ... http://www.schilke.com http://www.laskey.com http://www.thebrassbow.com/ They may not do plating in house, but I'm sure they can either send it out for you, or refer you elsewhere (like Anderson's in Indiana, sorry, I don't have their info) Before replating, the shop will buff out the nicks and pits first, so it'll come back like new, or better. Walter Barrett "Most people hate the taste of beer to begin with. It is, however, a prejudice that many people have been able to overcome." -Winston Churchill Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:59:53 -0600 From: Corliss Subject: Re: Getzen Website What I do not understand about this site is that Edwards trombones are not mention and nothing is said about visiting their factory to look check out their trombones. Richard Corliss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Brown" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:06 AM Subject: [TBN-L] Getzen Website > Hi all, > > If you're interested, check out the recently updated > Getzen website: http://www.getzen.com/ > > If you type in the address and still receive the old > website, then the new server information hasn't > totally saturated the internet. > > Take care, > > Joshua Brown > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site > http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:06:47 -0800 From: Joshua Brown Subject: Re: Getzen Website Hi Richard, Edwards and Getzen are separate instrument lines owned by the same company. For any and all information about Edwards, please visit http://www.edwards-instruments.com/ Unlike Edwards, Getzen uses instrument dealers to distribute their horns. The best way to play a Getzen is by contacting your local music store. Josh --- Corliss wrote: > What I do not understand about this site is that > Edwards trombones are not > mention and nothing is said about visiting their > factory to look check out > their trombones. > > Richard Corliss > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Brown" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:06 AM > Subject: [TBN-L] Getzen Website > > > > Hi all, > > > > If you're interested, check out the recently > updated > > Getzen website: http://www.getzen.com/ > > > > If you type in the address and still receive the > old > > website, then the new server information hasn't > > totally saturated the internet. > > > > Take care, > > > > Joshua Brown > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site > > http://webhosting.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:10:18 -0600 From: E P LUKAS Subject: Re: nicked, pitted mouthpieces Berto It's ALL in the economics. Restoring a nicked and pitted mouthpiece properly will be far more costly than buying a new mouthpiece; I could do it, but why should I bother? Here's what I would do to restore it (assuming it's silver plated: 1. Remove the silver. 2. Braze the pits full. 3. Grind/polish to dimension. 4. Silver plate. More complex than it might seem. Advice: Buy a new mouthpiece, play at least 30 minutes of long tones each and every day, without exception. It ain't the mouthpiece Bud, it's YOU. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:12:43 -0600 From: E P LUKAS Subject: Re: Getzen Website Corliss wrote: > > What I do not understand about this site is that Edwards trombones are not > mention and nothing is said about visiting their factory to look check out > their trombones. It's a GETZEN website, duh! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:42:53 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? OK, I posed these questions to a couple of friends of mine, one a conductor (Troy) who seems to carry around an encyclopedia of music inside his brain, the other a fantastic timpanist (Peter). Here's what they had to say: First the conductor: > First of all, how do you spell it? Is it tympani or timpani? And > does that word imply plural? What's the singular? Bunch of grammar > geeks on the trombone-l, and I guess I'm one of them... "Tympani" is archaic (and looks dumb -- or at least looks English). "Timpani" is (are) plural. The singular are (is) "timpano." The pitch question I will leave in Peter's hands, except to say that my experience has indeed been that what one hears next to the timpano and what one hears in the hall often don't match. Why? How does one deal with it? Is it supposed to be like that? Is thing on? Peter? Now the timpanist: Everything in Troy's email seems accurate. The plural thing and the spelling thing. Hardly anyone uses the singular even when appropriate. It's getting to be like using "whom." You may be right but people will resent you for using it. Only a little. The pitch thing is wierd. The pitch should be consistent at loud and soft volumes at any distance from the instrument. However, that requires a very good head, that has been mounted with great expertise and maintained very well. I used to have problems with this, but lately not so much. Basically, it's a legitimate thing to complain about, having a timpanist out of tune, but if the drums are rentals, it's not the timpanist's fault. Possibly. It could be his fault, but most rental drums do not have the heads properly mounted or maintained, and thus have pitch falsity issues. PLastic heads are inconsistent, which can create pitch bends, but calf heads are actually a bigger problem in this regard. They are terribly inconsistent. More forgiving in some ways, but more prone to falseness. Can't really blame the plastic for this. Much more common than pitch on a drum going from lo to hi is the pitch going from high to low. Most timps, even well maintained ones, have a certain amount of pitch drop. If it rises, that is very unusual. Electronic tuners are partly responsible for the drums sounding flat to the pitch of the orchestra. Whenever I tune by ear and then check with the tuner, it shows me being sharp. I now know to ignore this, and to listen to the pitch of the orchestra, but when studying, one tends to credit the reading of the tuner. Tuners do a lousy job with timps, possibly because of the wierd ass overtones. If people rely on them, they will end up playing flat, or training their ears to hear flat. Major problem. No tuners. one more thing. I was trained to tune to the pitch of the attack, not to the pitch of the sustain. I think that is the best way. Me again: Is there any trombone content here? I dunno, but if you can get along with your timpanist and your conductor, your job is a lot easier... Gabe __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:00:59 -0800 From: Gary Sloane Subject: Re: Who invented timpani anyway For those of you whose interest in romance philology extends to cuisine and cinema, you've got to see Big Night (1996). It's all about making a timpano (it doesn't do it justice to call it a layered casserole) as the piece de resistance (pardon my French, I don't know how to say it in Italian) for a dinner at which two brothers (Tony Shaloub and Stanley Tucci) expect Louis Prima to show up with the band. Including the bone section. What more could you want? How about Minnie Driver and Isabella Rosselini? > TYMPANI, And TIMP, etc, Is a PLURAL word. > one instrument is a kettledrum. two are TYMPANI (or a host of other > spellings) but NOT TIMPS, or Tympanys/Tympanies, etc. > More than one kettledrum is a set of Timp, not Timps. > > We get complaints when we see "coronet" on ebay, or another Brass instrument > name misspelled. So I needed to point this one out. > > Tom > Full time Trombonist > Part time Grammer Police Tom- It's been a long time since I studied this stuff, but I seem to recall learning in an orchestration class that the singular for tympani is tympano. Is that right or did I dream that? Dave -- Gary Sloane sloane@batnet.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:01:11 -0600 From: Corliss Subject: Re: Getzen Website I'm aware that these are two different instrument lines, but the website is not just about the Getzen line but also about the Getzen company and its history. In this context you would expect some information of the Edwards line and a mention of their website. Richard Corliss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Brown" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Getzen Website > Hi Richard, > > Edwards and Getzen are separate instrument lines owned > by the same company. For any and all information > about Edwards, please visit > http://www.edwards-instruments.com/ > > Unlike Edwards, Getzen uses instrument dealers to > distribute their horns. The best way to play a Getzen > is by contacting your local music store. > > Josh > > --- Corliss wrote: > > What I do not understand about this site is that > > Edwards trombones are not > > mention and nothing is said about visiting their > > factory to look check out > > their trombones. > > > > Richard Corliss > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Joshua Brown" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:06 AM > > Subject: [TBN-L] Getzen Website > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > If you're interested, check out the recently > > updated > > > Getzen website: http://www.getzen.com/ > > > > > > If you type in the address and still receive the > > old > > > website, then the new server information hasn't > > > totally saturated the internet. > > > > > > Take care, > > > > > > Joshua Brown > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site > > > http://webhosting.yahoo.com > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site > http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:55:25 +0000 From: robert.osterlund@ATTBI.COM Subject: Re: nicked, pitted mouthpieces EP: > Restoring a nicked and pitted mouthpiece properly will > be far more costly than buying a new mouthpiece; I > could do it, but why should I bother? This old mouthpiece is very well matched to the very old, small-bore trombone. I have tried modern mouthpieces on the instrument. They don't fit. I have another older and replated mouthpiece that fits, but it doesn't play as well. You're right that if the price is exhorbitant, it's just not worth it. I suppose I can try going from repair shop to repair shop in search of the elusive used/fits/in good condition/plays well mouthpiece. > It ain't the mouthpiece Bud, it's YOU. Yes, expert, experienced players can play well, and get the desired effect, on just about any instrument with any mouthpiece. But I am not experienced. And we often see posts in this forum where players discuss the "right" mouthpiece with the "right" instrument. Are most of us taking "the easy way out"? > Advice: Buy a new mouthpiece, play at least 30 minutes of > long tones each and every day, without exception. I might try shopping around for a new mp. About the long tones--good advice and sound practice, from what I've learned. Berto -- robert.osterlund@attbi.com http://earlymusichicago.home.attbi.com/ http://earlymusichicago.org/earlymusichicago/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:53:44 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Large mouthpieces, was Re: 12c in a bass bone? --- sabutin wrote: > If you were to take a stock 4 cylinder > Mommy/DaddyToyota Corolla > and drop a 300 hp engine in it, the car would be almost > undriveable > unless: > > 1-There were extensive modifications done on the chassis, > suspension, > brakes, steering etc. and > > 2-The driver was an expert w/complete control over all > aspects of driving. > > Ditto large m'pces and small horns. Exactly. This is why Joe Alessi sounds fantastic, with a characteristic tenor trombone sound, on his absolutely huge mouthpiece. I heard him play years ago on much more conventional equipment, and he sounded fantastic then, too. Mastery of the instrument and fine control of what he's doing behind it allow him to play such large equipment and get the results he wants. Also, he's balanced every element of his instrument to respond the way he wants. Ever since listening to a couple of trombone auditions from the other side of the screen, I'm more and more convinced that it is vital to master the full range of tessitura, dynamic and articulation that is necessary, and make that the first priority when selecting equipment. Of course you need a beautiful sound, but sound will not get you past the first round of the audition if the other elements are not in place. If you are fighting your equipment for control in the high register, you're playing the wrong equipment. If you are choosing a mouthpiece, and you go through the following conversation in your head: "Boy this sounds big and dark, and boy can I put a lot of air through it. I guess I'll just have to get stronger for the high register...", think again. How good was your high register on your old mouthpiece, really? Good enough that you could play whatever you needed, even when nervous? Then, sure, play the bigger mouthpiece and get the same facility back. But if it was iffy before, a bigger mouthpiece is only going to make it harder. Don't make big sacrifices in facility for big sound. It won't help you in the short run or the long. End of rant. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:30:34 -0500 From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: Getzen Website I see that you designed the web site, Josh. Nice job! Have you tried any of the newer Getzen horns yet? -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Joshua Brown Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 10:07 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Getzen Website Hi all, If you're interested, check out the recently updated Getzen website: http://www.getzen.com/ If you type in the address and still receive the old website, then the new server information hasn't totally saturated the internet. Take care, Joshua Brown __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:39:01 -0500 From: Richard Johnson Subject: Allora trombones I saw the Allora trombones advertised for sale in the ww&bw catalog yesterday. They are sold as student trombones and as professional trombones. Does anyone have personal experience with these instruments? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 12:39:46 -0600 From: Corliss Subject: Long tones after Remington Someone sent a post asking about the approaches to long tones after = Remington -=20 a post that I managed to lose. I want to describe in a general way the = new emphasizes and then others can a jump to assess my perspective. The one word that I think is most important in describing the new = approaches is the word 'calisthenics'. Trombone playing is seen as a vigorous activity = demanding on your body for which=20 one should thinking in terms of training - as in athlectics. The first = that I know about which introduced this emphasis is Carmine Caruso's Misical Calisthenics for = Brass, Almo Publications, 1979 -=20 an inexpensive bookthatI would recommend. The most discussed approach to = a calisthenics approach=20 to long tones in this forum has been the approach taught by Phil Teele - = bass trombone player in the LA area. Phil Teele now has a book out and someone in this forum I believe has a = book written from this perspective for the tenor trombone.=20 What is important in calisthenics is that your muscles get taxed and = worn out, but not to the point of causing=20 pain. Caruso approach combines long tone with slurs and focuses on = building the upper range. One begins on middle F and the F major scale - hold the F two beats, slur up one step, or two = steps, etc up to an octave step - picking a particular step for a = particular day; hold the upper note for two beats and then slur down to = the original note and hold it for four beats. After=20 starting with F one then proceeds to G, then to A, B, C, etc. in each = case slurring the same interval. In each case one slurs as high as one = can until no sound comes out. Caruso has a person doing three versions = of this exercise each day with different kinds of shifts in volume.=20 Sabutin, a member of this forum, studied with Caruso and has reworked = Caruso's approch and has a book entitled, The American Trombone. I won't try to describe the complexity of his approach except = to say that he also combines long tones and slurs, and that he adds to = these slurs both lip buzzing and buzzing with the mouthpiece. Lip = buzzing is controversial and you should read some of the things has said = on this subject to avoid misuse of the practice.=20 Another thing found in Caruso's approach and adopted by Sabutin and = other is the use of breath attacks - attacks with the use of no tongue. = The point here seems to be to develop the appropriate kind of = interaction between wind and lip and this can best be done without the interference of the tongue. A word about Teele's approach - what is unique here is the amount of = time that he requires of his student in playing long tones. To work with him as a student you must commit yourself to spending one = hour a day on a long tone exercise. Later this gets=20 expanded to a longer time. Teele has the student spend about hour on a = particular partial, taking a big breath and playing as long as one can. He has the student playing about a dozen long tones on a = particular pitch, counting them, and then and extending the slide one = step and repeat. He is not concerned about the quality of one's tone - = this is a form of calisthenics - and plays down the importance of = flexibility exercises.=20 In fhis forum a number of individuals tried his exercises and all had = very positive things to say about this drill. Two negative reactions - = from a psychological point of view it is madening and it takes more time = than "I" have to spend. It was also made clear that this approach is not = for the beginning trombone player. It would be too demanding.=20 Each day I try to do a version of the Caruso/Sabutin approach and the = Teele approach and have them to be very helpful. I do a half hour to = forty minutes a day on long tones with not counting and do not stick = with any particular partial. In fact ballad playing is a=20 form of long tones and so I do many different things in this long tone = exercise. The main thing is keeping the mouthpiece to the lips except = for short breaks until the lips get really tired but don't hurt. On = Sabutin's approach I would read close some of the things he has to say = both about lip buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing. I don't think that I = understood the significance of what he has so say about mouthpiece = buzzing until I tried left handed playing - a recent discussion - and = what Sam had to say about it and its=20 link to mouthpiece buzzing. It has caused my to vary the way I hold the = trombone and made me more consistent in how the mouthpiece comes to my = lips.=20 Richard Corliss ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:21:07 -0600 From: Jeff Oien Subject: Re: Long tones after Remington Thank you for the informative post. Just wanted to let people know where to buy these if they aren't familiar. Phil Teele's book can only be bought from Steve Ferguson: http://members.aol.com/sftrombone/Books.htm And Paul Kemp is the person who wrote Embouchure Studies for Tenor Trombone: http://www.trbnplyr.com/id69.htm Jeff Oien > The most discussed approach > to a calisthenics approach > to long tones in this forum has been the approach taught by Phil > Teele - bass trombone player in the LA area. > Phil Teele now has a book out and someone in this forum I believe has > a book written from this perspective > for the tenor trombone. > > What is important in calisthenics is that your muscles get taxed and > worn out, but not to the point of causing > pain. Caruso approach combines long tone with slurs and focuses on > building the upper range. One begins on middle > F and the F major scale - hold the F two beats, slur up one step, or > two steps, etc up to an octave step - picking a particular step for a > particular day; hold the upper note for two beats and then slur down > to the original note and hold it for four beats. After > starting with F one then proceeds to G, then to A, B, C, etc. in each > case slurring the same interval. In each case one slurs as high as > one can until no sound comes out. Caruso has a person doing three > versions of this exercise each day with different kinds of shifts in volume. > > Sabutin, a member of this forum, studied with Caruso and has reworked > Caruso's approch and has a book entitled, The American > Trombone. I won't try to describe the complexity of his approach > except to say that he also combines long tones and slurs, and that he > adds to these slurs both lip buzzing and buzzing with the mouthpiece. > Lip buzzing is controversial and you should read some of the things > has said on this subject to avoid misuse of the practice. > > Another thing found in Caruso's approach and adopted by Sabutin and > other is the use of breath attacks - attacks with the use of no > tongue. The point here seems to be to develop the appropriate kind of > interaction between wind and lip and this can best > be done without the interference of the tongue. > > A word about Teele's approach - what is unique here is the amount of > time that he requires of his student in playing long tones. > To work with him as a student you must commit yourself to spending > one hour a day on a long tone exercise. Later this gets > expanded to a longer time. Teele has the student spend about hour on > a particular partial, taking a big breath and playing as long > as one can. He has the student playing about a dozen long tones on a > particular pitch, counting them, and then and extending the slide one > step and repeat. He is not concerned about the quality of one's tone > - this is a form of calisthenics - and plays down the importance of > flexibility exercises. > > In fhis forum a number of individuals tried his exercises and all had > very positive things to say about this drill. Two negative reactions > - from a psychological point of view it is madening and it takes more > time than "I" have to spend. It was also made clear that this > approach is not for the beginning trombone player. It would be too demanding. > > Each day I try to do a version of the Caruso/Sabutin approach and the > Teele approach and have them to be very helpful. I do a half hour to > forty minutes a day on long tones with not counting and do not stick > with any particular partial. In fact ballad playing is a > form of long tones and so I do many different things in this long > tone exercise. The main thing is keeping the mouthpiece to the lips > except for short breaks until the lips get really tired but don't > hurt. On Sabutin's approach I would read close some of the things he > has to say both about lip buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing. I don't > think that I understood the significance of what he has so say about > mouthpiece buzzing until I tried left handed playing - a recent > discussion - and what Sam had to say about it and its > link to mouthpiece buzzing. It has caused my to vary the way I hold > the trombone and made me more consistent in how the mouthpiece comes > to my lips. > > Richard Corliss ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:21:40 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Long tones after Remington --- Corliss wrote: > Someone sent a post asking about the approaches to long > tones after Remington - > a post that I managed to lose. I want to describe in a > general way the new emphasizes > and then others can a jump to assess my perspective. Thanks for summing this all up Richard, this seems accurate to me. I've spent the better part of the last year doing the Phil Teele routine, and adapting it for my needs a little bit. The changes in my playing have been astounding. I have a much more secure, flexible, articulate, powerful low register than I ever had before. Particular notes that had always troubled me are now much more consistent in sound and feel to the notes around them. I've done very few lip slurs in the last year, although I have incorporated some articulation exercises into the long tone routine. I haven't noticed any decline in my flexibility - but I did years of lip slurs before I started the long tone journey. Sam's book is also great, and whenever I'm feeling wierd from all the long tones, I can do some Caruso-style exercises and bring everything back into focus. I still think the Remington-style exercises form an important foundation for most players and teachers, but I think these other approaches have a lot to add. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:09:58 -0600 From: Corliss Subject: Re: Long tones after Remington Thanks. I agree with you that long tones with the Teele - Sabutin approaches help flexibility. I worked on trills without significant success for a long time, but soon after using their approaches I was doing trills. I check out Remington once in a while to see how well I can perform what is there - not primarily to enable me to do that kind of thing. There was one thing I intended to say in that post but forgot. Whenever a strong emphasis is placed on calisthenics with respect to range building it needs to be said with some emphasis that range is much more than muscle - much about very subtle techniques. David Reinhardt's Pivot System was, as far as I can tell, the first too emphasize this perspective. David Wilken, a moderator of the Pedagogy section of the forum, has his roots in this tradition and has much important stuff to say in reworking that tradition. Sam also has much to say about subtle techniques and his three prong approach to long tones has in part this concern over modifying one's techniques. Richard Corliss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabriel Langfur" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Long tones after Remington > --- Corliss wrote: > > Someone sent a post asking about the approaches to long > > tones after Remington - > > a post that I managed to lose. I want to describe in a > > general way the new emphasizes > > and then others can a jump to assess my perspective. > > Thanks for summing this all up Richard, this seems accurate > to me. > > I've spent the better part of the last year doing the Phil > Teele routine, and adapting it for my needs a little bit. > The changes in my playing have been astounding. I have a > much more secure, flexible, articulate, powerful low > register than I ever had before. Particular notes that had > always troubled me are now much more consistent in sound > and feel to the notes around them. > > I've done very few lip slurs in the last year, although I > have incorporated some articulation exercises into the long > tone routine. I haven't noticed any decline in my > flexibility - but I did years of lip slurs before I started > the long tone journey. > > Sam's book is also great, and whenever I'm feeling wierd > from all the long tones, I can do some Caruso-style > exercises and bring everything back into focus. > > I still think the Remington-style exercises form an > important foundation for most players and teachers, but I > think these other approaches have a lot to add. > > Gabe > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site > http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:02:33 -0600 From: Billy Cordova Subject: Re: Long tones after Remington ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corliss" To: Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Long tones after Remington David Wilken, a moderator of the Pedagogy section of the forum, > has his roots in this tradition and has much important stuff to say in > reworking that tradition.> > Richard Corliss For those of you unfamiliar with the forum mentioned by Richard, he's taking about the Online Trombone Journal's Forum (www.trombone.org/forum). Billy Cordova OTJ Forum Co-Administrator I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire St. Cecilia, pray for us ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 17:11:09 -0500 From: Chad Horsley Subject: Christmas Carols I am looking to buy some of the carols of the Trombones under the tree cd. I have purchased Robert Elkjer's Volume 1, but the others on the cd are hard to find. Suggestings and/or information would be much appreciated. Chad Horsley ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:56:04 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: MILES ANDERSON plays his slide Trombone again]///small bell news youve made !!!!!!!!!!youre famous now !!!!!!you hit it big !!!!!e bay !!! 1980 !! wow !!--historic --- rudy never said nothin about this !!! ------- the band from the circus is comin over tomorrow a d////mouse or somethin died in the art house -bathroom ---pppppppppppuuuuuuuuuuuu denny garrels might show up chris moncelli ???? moncelli picked up 2bs over here for john allred /and euphos for tuba christmas -we all might hit '''the mall''and blow christmas carols for salvation army the mall is about three stores just for kicks !!!!!!!!!!!!!-drummer boy in kinda a bop funk was a hit lastyear brett barlow is bringin a carload of bones -silvertones a mv 8 -----yummy - ---------------------- kkeith hocking is looking for a willie 4 0r 6 [needs a 4] anything floating around ?????????????????? he is doing 3 dixie gigs a week !!!!!!!!!!!!in tun bridge on the heath farnrworthingham and tuttles infirmary for the veterans of the boer war ---------------- bill foy got a wille 4 but no news --he mighta slipped it to japan already -------------------------------------------------- the small bell pick of the week is -----a holton model 63 --- from around 1949 -this lovely trombone features a lucious precious nitrocellulose finish with a glowing patina that only time can give --the sppecifications are 500///509 -- 7 inch thick brass bell nickle ferrules over brass outer complete with an 80a taperprofile mouthpiece and a luxurious luggage case fitted with a cleaning rod and a partially used bottle of holton electric oil !!!!!!!!!!!! yes this small bell trombone is very very rare in new york at a trombone boutique on theisland one might expectto pay upwards or 4327.99 plus 8 .654327 % tax --and tip ------a special historical treatise and provenance is available at extra cost to research the archives in elkhorn wisconsin ------ -------------this tasty trombone tidbit has been brought to you by chester hill studios --retirement home for tired slides --care for your elderly trombone is given by a knowledgable and loving staff who will gently play your donated instrument at a lowered pitch and dynamic level - all contributions are fully decuctble and a % of all proceeds in the march for slide equality will be given to the jj johnson ita fund ---100$ bills please send to receive your specal gold membership in the trombone equality drawing remember only you can prevent forest fires carry your mister at all times Miles Anderson wrote: > Now I know I've made it. > > Hope to get it out on CD next year. Recorded in 1980, I think. The picture may have me holding a Williams 4, but the entire recording is on a Bach 8 except for 2 movements of the t-bone 4-tet. > > On Thursday, November 14, 2002, at 05:42 PM, D.J. Kennedy wrote: > > this wouldnt happen to be you ???????? > > what a coincidence ----- > > > > [Image] A > Thank you for bidding in the Music:CDs, Records, and Tapes:Records:33 RPM/LPs:Classical category, djpens@midwest.net! > [Image] > > We appreciate the trading you do on eBay and want to confirm the details of your bid. > > Item name: > Item number: > Your current bid: ÄÝ > Your maximum bid: > End date: ÄÝ > Current price: > > To view the item you're bidding on, click here: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=922259287&ssPageName=ADME:B:BN:US:1 > > [Image] > [Image] > Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, Led Zepplin & Pink Floyd memorabilia. Perfect gifts for music fans. > > We're pleased to announce eBay Electronics! > At www.ebayelectronics.com, you ll find the hot gadgets you're after this holiday. eBay Electronics showcases the unbeatable value and great brands available from eBay sellers. From cell phones and video games to laptops and office products, get on eBay - under one roof! > > With Warranty Services for eBay Provided by N.E.W., you can now buy new & used electronics and computers on eBay with confidence! Free & convenient servicing of ! products and 24x7 customer service offered. Click here to shop for products with a warranty option > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Join & get 12 CDs FREE (+ s&h) OR 4 DVDs for 49 ea. (+ s&h) Join and save on the CDs and DVDs that you ve been craving! Choose top music artists like Alicia Keys, Ludacris, Jennifer Lopez, Linkin Park, Enya, and more, all at unheard of prices. Pick hit DVD titles like Shrek, Moulin Rouge, Memento, Pearl Harbor, Gladiator, and many more releases with your favorite stars. > > CDs at chcd.com from Columbia House > DVDs at chdvd.com from Columbia House > [Image] > [Image] > > Safety Tip: > It is against eBay policy for a seller to contact you about buying a similar or identical item outside of eBay. This type of transaction is not covered by the services we provide to protect you - such as feedback, buyer protection and dispute resolution. For your own protection, please do not participate. > > Note: Your bid is considered a binding contract with the seller (except for Real Estate and other non-binding bid categories). For more information on what to do if you placed this bid by mistake, click here: http://pages.ebay.com/help/buy/bid-retract.html > > [Image] > [Image] > Remember: eBay will not ask you for sensitive personal information such as your password, credit card and bank account numbers in an email. Learn more about how to protect your account > > [Image] > This eBay Notice was sent to djpens@midwest.net based on your eBay account preferences. To unsubscribe from this eBay notice, click here. > > As outlined in our User Agreement, eBay will periodically send you information about site changes and enhancements. Visit our Privacy Policy and User Agreement if you have any questions. > > ( > i > i ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:50:25 -0500 From: "Eiden, Peter" Subject: Re: Christmas Carols Some of the others are on volumes 2 and 3, available directly from Bob Elkjer. His catalog and ordering information is at the following web address. http://home.pacbell.net/melkjer/ -----Original Message----- From: Chad Horsley [mailto:chorsley8@INSIGHTBB.COM] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 5:11 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Christmas Carols I am looking to buy some of the carols of the Trombones under the tree cd. I have purchased Robert Elkjer's Volume 1, but the others on the cd are hard to find. Suggestings and/or information would be much appreciated. Chad Horsley **************************************************************************** This email may contain confidential material. If you were not an intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies. We may monitor email to and from our network. **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:55:04 -0800 From: emrose79@PACBELL.NET Subject: Re: Tympani, Schmimpani OK....to change the direction a little... isn't it Welsh, not Welch? Craig Parmerlee wrote: > > At 08:48 AM 11/14/2002 +0000, Adrian Drover wrote: > >I'd like to know where the "tympani" spelling came from, because it > >certainly does not appear to be of European origin. Wouldn't think it was > >American either. They tend to simplify spellings, rather than the reverse. > >Anyone have any ideas on this? > > Hmmmm. A "y" inserted in the middle of the word for no apparent > reason? It can only be Welch. ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 13 Nov 2002 to 14 Nov 2002 (#2002-124) *****************************************************************