Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 12 Nov 2002 to 13 Nov 2002 (#2002-123) There are 35 messages totalling 1651 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Who invented tympani anyway? (12) 2. New Windplayer Gallery (jazz prints) (2) 3. SV: [TBN-L] Who invented tympani anyway? (2) 4. Who invented tympani anyway? [Also: What did Mahler want?] (2) 5. Oh great gurus of the trombone-L...I request assistance... (3) 6. What did Mahler want? 7. test (2) 8. lip balm: to use, or not to use (update) 9. Parallel question on contras (5) 10. long tones instruction 11. 12c in a bass bone? (2) 12. Minick alto trombone for sale 13. Tympani, Schmimpani ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:29:28 -0600 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? Hey people, I've stayed out of this for awhile, but now I need to "chime" in (pun intended). As primarily a Trombonist, but also a doubler of Percussion including Tympani, I guess I need to set the record straight. At 2:09 PM -0400 11/12/02, Craig Parmerlee wrote: > >It seems to me that the drums could be 1/4 their size and work quite nicely. Andy added: ___ hall and that especially has to do with finding a good spot for the timps. So, I do understand the volume problems quite well. community orchestra recently invested in a set of 4 timps that have a rather large range on each drum (1.5 octaves I believe) and that have somewhat smallish shells. While I recognize that getting our own timps has many advantages (the heads are not abused by high school students), I find the tone of the smaller drums slightly less desirable. ____ TYMPANI, And TIMP, etc, Is a PLURAL word. one instrument is a kettledrum. two are TYMPANI (or a host of other spellings) but NOT TIMPS, or Tympanys/Tympanies, etc. More than one kettledrum is a set of Timp, not Timps. We get complaints when we see "coronet" on ebay, or another Brass instrument name misspelled. So I needed to point this one out. Tom Full time Trombonist Part time Grammer Police ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:17:22 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: New Windplayer Gallery (jazz prints) From: "David Guion" > Hmmm. Is that why we have to sell pizzas? Well, I guess selling them is preferable to eating them. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:57:31 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Marius_Helg=E5?= Subject: SV: [TBN-L] Who invented tympani anyway? > Yes, absolutely, without a doubt. But we don't have an instrument that can > generate more noise than a 747. There is only one instrument on the > symphonic stage that can produce such loud volumes, and I am wondering how > that came to be. Do i get you right if you are claiming that a set of Tympani is able to produce MORE sound than a trombone? I have to say I strongly disagree! Our conductor had made arrangements for a guy from the local "arbeidstilsynet" (Norwegian workplace environment inspection authority) to measure our band playing, and at the end og Sea Portrait (Homer LaGassey), we reached a peak of 109 desibel. NO Timpani player could go over the volume I was playing there, without breaking totally out of the bands common sound (neither could I). Marius Helgå Basstrombone Bass Trombone Mo Hornmusikk Mo Wind Band DIOC Storband Dunderland Iron Ore Company Big Band Mo Orkesterforening Mo Community Orchestra Produsent Producer Nordland Kretskorps Nordland Symphonic Band Mo i Rana, Norway ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:33:37 +0900 From: Joseph Green Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? [Also: What did Mahler want?] Maybe Mahler liked LOUD. I remember hearing once a story about him insisting during a rehersal that the tympani were not loud enough. Finally, the tympanist hit with so much force that the handle of the mallet broke. Then Mahler said something to the effect of "That's a little more like it." Does anyone know if that's true? JG +++++++++++++++ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:55:36 -0400 > From: Craig Parmerlee > Subject: Who invented tympani anyway? > > Whoever it was, they should have been tortured mercilessly. I have come to > the opinion that this mechanical device (I can't bring myself to call it a > musical instrument) is the most hideous invention of all time. > > We're playing Mahler 1 this week. Every time I go to play one of my notes, > I am surrounded by 130 decibels of tympani noise that is a quarter step > below my pitch. I honestly can't tell if I'm playing or not. > > How many times have you attended a symphonic concert where the tympani were > way too loud for the orchestra? Seems to me that is the normal > situation. Why did anybody make these things so &%^#%@ big? > > Are the tympani a problem in your orchestra? Anybody have any creative > ways of dealing with this. > > Later, > Craig > > ------------------------------ > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:06:58 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? > Here's the solution. Repeatedly complain long and loud to the orchestra > committee about the dangerous noise levels. Yes, and while you're at it, get them to turn down the celesta too. Oh, and tell them if they're going to use timpani to get the spelling correct. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:10:42 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Oh great gurus of the trombone-L...I request assistance... >Hey folks, > >I am having a bit of an issue about something and would appreciate your >opinion. I have been considered a bass trombonist ever since college since >it was the instrument I wound up playing most while there but I have always >considered myself a "trombonist". I try to not limit myself to just >playing bass and in fact I have been in a latin/Jazz group now for almost a >year playing my straight tenor horn. I was in the studio last night laying >down tracks for the new CD and was not happy with the sound I was getting. >Granted I have not done a lot of studio work and was playing pretty >forcefully but the sound was "dirty" to what I wanted. > >I am currently playing (Small horn): > >King 2B/Cleveland model from approx the 1940's >Marcinkiewicz 8H or Lindberg 15CL mouthpiece > >I am afraid that I have lost the passion I once had for this horn. The >metal on it is very thick and I always enjoyed being able to blow bass >trombone air through it but I am afraid it is just too brassy. > >I was thinking about buying a silver horn or even a 3B which would be a >little bigger and perhaps I could control better. Figuring that I play a >Bach 50B with original Thayers and a Monette BT1L mouthpiece it is quite a >switch from one to the other. ================ I know what you mean. Be careful buying older 3Bs w/out trying them, however. Some are great,some are terrible, most are just mediocre. Except for the great ones, they are ALL too resistant for people who like to put a lot of air through the horn. The newer ones are better that way...but they are very light unless you get a silver one, and the lightness gets both brassy + nasty at volume. Sounds like that's not what you are looking for. Depends on how much money, time + connections you have. Shires is making great .508 and .500 bore horns that can be configured to play as open as you might ever want, but they are in the $2000 + range .You can find King SG-X horns used for less than $1500, or you can try to find an open blowing older King,Olds, or Conn .500 to .509-ish instrument at under $1000. I have recently been very impressed w/a number of Olds horns from the late '40s /early '50s. You might also look into Conn 78Hs...,522 bore, surprisingly bright at volume. Also the Conn 32H Burkle (.500/.522 dual bore). Email me...I may have some leads. Sam Burtis ====== > >I also have a King 4B and a Holton (I think) large bore straight horn with >no Rotor and it is a tank. I thought about playing that but know I >wouldn't last on a gig past the first set. I may even be willing to swap >with someone for a smaller horn if interested in a symphonic straight horn. > >Should I consider something like a Silversonic small horn? I have seen >some on e-bay and saw a posting for one in here by another member. Any >comments/assistance would be helpful. > >Thanks, > >Eric Dregne >Trombonist > >========== >The preceding e-mail message (including any attachments) contains >information that may be confidential, be protected by the attorney-client >or other applicable privileges, or constitute non-public information. It >is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s). If you are >not an intended recipient of this message, please notify the sender by >replying to this message and then delete it from your system. Use, >dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this message by unintended >recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful. >========== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:13:24 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Oh great gurus of the trombone-L...I request assistance... >I recently had a hard time in the studio. I did two sessions for >the same project. On the first, we recorded in your standard run of >the mill small, dead room. On the second, we recorded at Sony >Studios in a room the size of a warehouse. On the first session I >wore headphones and had a terrible time finding "my" sound. On the >second session, I played without phones and had a very easy time of >it. Most studios are set up to create the deadest possible sound in >order to give more control to the engineer and his bag of tricks. >Those acoustic environments generally have little or nothing to do >with the situations that we usually perform within. > >Just my thoughts. You have to have different approaches that >coincide with different acoustic situations. > >DG ============ Best solution...try to get a mono mix and use one headphone. You can adjust the single phone to give you all the time + pitch info you need and still hear acoustically w/the other ear. It works... S. ---snip--- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:17:52 -0500 From: Stephen Troy Subject: Re: What did Mahler want? At 05:33 PM 11/13/2002 +0900, Joseph Green wrote: >Maybe Mahler liked LOUD. I remember hearing once a story about him >insisting during a rehersal that the tympani were not loud enough. >Finally, the tympanist hit with so much force that the handle of the >mallet broke. Then Mahler said something to the effect of "That's a >little more like it." > >Does anyone know if that's true? > >JG Could be. When Mahler visited Niagara Falls, he said something like "Finally, a true fortissimo!" Steve Troy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:39:06 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: SV: [TBN-L] Who invented tympani anyway? At 08:57 AM 11/13/2002 +0100, Marius Helgå wrote: >Do i get you right if you are claiming that a set of Tympani is able to >produce MORE sound than a trombone? Yes, beyond any doubt. Our tympani can cover up the entire orchestra playing at FF. In this case (Mahler 1) we have two players on 6 drums on a very tight stage, so that is a little unusual. I should point out that we have your basic cheap plastic heads, which I have learned are the loudest. Apparently the best orchestras have calf or goat skin heads which have better sound and a lot less of it. Those are $700ish per head. The good news is that there is now a "synthetic calk" head available for about $150/head. I'm hoping that will be part of our solution. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:08:28 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? At 09:06 AM 11/13/2002 +0000, Adrian Drover wrote: >Oh, and tell them if they're going to use timpani to get the spelling >correct. Over here, it seems to be spelled "tympani" most of the time, judging on the catalogs from the big drum retailers and manufacturers. See: http://www.pearldrum.com/adams.pdf http://www.hickeys.com/cgi/display.cgi?page=ty55.htm http://www.remo.com/catalog2/dh.cfm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:52:45 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Oh great gurus of the trombone-L...I request assistance... wow bass bone and 2b !!!!!!!yeah some people call the 2b --edgophone - --at least you can hear it --i have heard of latinos playing bass bone in [phily ??pittsburg?/??] bands because it was the horn they had -- marco gonzolazes is more of an example of a player looking for a sound -- he asked for suggestions for a more power andprojection in a salsa band w two brilliant trumpets -----he was playing a mt vernon silver plated 36--- well i immediately suggested a smaller horn ---a 2b silvertone or silversonic and told him to go to dillons and what to look for --and what to avoid -- ok he gets a horn ---better but not quite --i put him onto red brass 8 in bell holton 500/500 --then an ancient holton brass bell 8.5 522/522 --too brassy- this then led to a series of 3bs -he asked for certain types of 3bs --and over time he got 4 different ones ---then last year he asked if i knew where there was a bach 36 ---------bach to square one -- so right off the bat i would suggest a 525 horn -like the bach 36-- actually an old liberty like you are on now probably will feel more open than the average 3b-- -------------------------------------- a 1940 silvertone is one of my main mans --but at times i thought it could get a little harsh ---sometimes you want that rawness -and sometimes soft and gentle like a samba --doesnt get it --your band mates prolly like your sound - and it is just now that you have heard it thru the miracle of recording - --------------------------------------- i remember the time i took big bertha[king duo gravis silver sonic] out to gatsbys ---larry said --'''''''''''''''' dj what kinda horn is that ?????--i dont like it !!!!!! i cant hear you !!!'''''''' so i got mad and pretended to play w mike the trumpet player but wasnt blowing ----maybe one song ---this was a very humbling experience -- not only did nobody notice -nobody cared -or knew what time it was -- well i continued playing big bertha -but only on dock of the bay and a few other songs not of extreme volume // no cut necessary i was still playing old bessie at ''the club''[now burnt down] when a one armed skinny dude asked me if i need a horn ----thats how marco ended up w 3b no. 4---a 70s b/f---my first 3b !!!-guy had lost arm in motorcycle accident the dude offered me his horn --for 275 -i told him keep the horn -until i get it paid off which took about a year --without being able to pick -luck was on my side a great horn that plays nice ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ok ---sorry for rambling --- heres the deal -if you want a nice sound on the 2b--which is possible -- listen to urbie jiggs kai later -jj earlier -its possible - dont blow so fffffffffffffffffffhard !!!!!! use the mic -thats what its for !!!! but i know youre not gonna do that so i wouldskip the 3b for now and get a thicker bell biggerbone like a 36 ---[lt slide if you can get it ] but your band guys are used to the shredder and wont like it at first -------------------------- in the studio -back off your air ---with your 2b -the engineer can pump the volume try your bass on the gig for some numbers if its ez -- i used to drag a tenor a valve and a bass laryy would say ---'''dj what are you doing with all those horns?/''''' i would say --what are you doing w all of those drums --------------------------------- luis flores -in miami met him at the itf ---he was playing a getzen 3047 --yum !! but he wasnt blowing particularly hard ---when he asked for a bone for salsa 2 bones /2 trumpets i suggested a cetain kind of 3b --for him and it is exactly what kind of horn sound he was needing ----------------------- emanuel navarro ---trying to find 'the sound '''--deeper darker ''' he had a marvelous new 12lt ---one of bachs best efforts for sure how about a 16mlt slide --still not big sound enough!!!!ok forgetabout bach ---i know what you are looking for exactly ---- so i knew where the certain sound was and who had the horn -- marco !!!!!!!looking for another 36 !!!!!had the fatttjj 3b !!!!!! this is what ermulito needs !!!!!!!! ----wow timing !!!!!!! i ended up with the new 12lt ----but really i didnt want a 12 at the time because i had given up on finding one that i liked --- ----------------------------------- yeah conn 32 h and 78 h will be good --- i got offered both this week --for a guy looking for a --get this -good playing 2b!!! i will give you his number if you need it bill hanck [hank] in chicago ---this cat has the stories too !!!!!!!! sabutin wrote: > >Hey folks, > > > >I am having a bit of an issue about something and would appreciate your > >opinion. I have been considered a bass trombonist ever since college since > >it was the instrument I wound up playing most while there but I have always > >considered myself a "trombonist". I try to not limit myself to just > >playing bass and in fact I have been in a latin/Jazz group now for almost a > >year playing my straight tenor horn. I was in the studio last night laying > >down tracks for the new CD and was not happy with the sound I was getting. > >Granted I have not done a lot of studio work and was playing pretty > >forcefully but the sound was "dirty" to what I wanted. > > > >I am currently playing (Small horn): > > > >King 2B/Cleveland model from approx the 1940's > >Marcinkiewicz 8H or Lindberg 15CL mouthpiece > > > >I am afraid that I have lost the passion I once had for this horn. The > >metal on it is very thick and I always enjoyed being able to blow bass > >trombone air through it but I am afraid it is just too brassy. > > > >I was thinking about buying a silver horn or even a 3B which would be a > >little bigger and perhaps I could control better. Figuring that I play a > >Bach 50B with original Thayers and a Monette BT1L mouthpiece it is quite a > >switch from one to the other. > > ================ > > I know what you mean. > > Be careful buying older 3Bs w/out trying them, however. Some are > great,some are terrible, most are just mediocre. Except for the great > ones, they are ALL too resistant for people who like to put a lot of > air through the horn. > > The newer ones are better that way...but they are very light > unless you get a silver one, and the lightness gets both brassy + > nasty at volume. Sounds like that's not what you are looking for. > > Depends on how much money, time + connections you have. > > Shires is making great .508 and .500 bore horns that can be > configured to play as open as you might ever want, but they are in > the $2000 + range > > .You can find King SG-X horns used for less than $1500, or you can > try to find an open blowing older King,Olds, or Conn .500 to .509-ish > instrument at under $1000. I have recently been very impressed w/a > number of Olds horns from the late '40s /early '50s. You might also > look into Conn 78Hs...,522 bore, surprisingly bright at volume. Also > the Conn 32H Burkle (.500/.522 dual bore). > > Email me...I may have some leads. > > Sam Burtis > > ====== > > > > >I also have a King 4B and a Holton (I think) large bore straight horn with > >no Rotor and it is a tank. I thought about playing that but know I > >wouldn't last on a gig past the first set. I may even be willing to swap > >with someone for a smaller horn if interested in a symphonic straight horn. > > > >Should I consider something like a Silversonic small horn? I have seen > >some on e-bay and saw a posting for one in here by another member. Any > >comments/assistance would be helpful. > > > >Thanks, > > > >Eric Dregne > >Trombonist > > > >========== > >The preceding e-mail message (including any attachments) contains > >information that may be confidential, be protected by the attorney-client > >or other applicable privileges, or constitute non-public information. It > >is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s). If you are > >not an intended recipient of this message, please notify the sender by > >replying to this message and then delete it from your system. Use, > >dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this message by unintended > >recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful. > >========== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:35:56 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? [Also: What did Mahler want?] Was it a drummer who told that story by any chance? :) To be fair to the percussion section, in my present case, we are dealing with a very difficult stage. I have no criticism of the percussionists in this instance. They are doing as the conductor indicates. The acoustics of this stage are really spooky. It seems that the tympani sound travels mostly straight up, vaporizing anybody within an 8 foot radius, but most of that sound is not making it to the podium or the audience. So maybe what we need are kettle drums that can be angled towards the audience so that a much lower sound volume on stage will be needed to achieve the desired dramatic effect for the audience. Cheers, CP At 05:33 PM 11/13/2002 +0900, Joseph Green wrote: >Maybe Mahler liked LOUD. I remember hearing once a story about him >insisting during a rehersal that the tympani were not loud enough. >Finally, the tympanist hit with so much force that the handle of the >mallet broke. Then Mahler said something to the effect of "That's a >little more like it." > >Does anyone know if that's true? > >JG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 09:54:52 -0500 From: David Buckley Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? How mant tympani do you own Tom? Dave. Tom Izzo wrote: > Hey people, > > I've stayed out of this for awhile, but now I need to "chime" in (pun > intended). As primarily a Trombonist, but also a doubler of Percussion > including Tympani, I guess I need to set the record straight. > > At 2:09 PM -0400 11/12/02, Craig Parmerlee wrote: > > > >It seems to me that the drums could be 1/4 their size and work quite > nicely. > > Andy added: > ___ > hall and that especially has to do with finding a good spot for the > timps. So, I do understand the volume problems quite well. > > community orchestra recently invested in a set of 4 timps that have a > rather large range on each drum (1.5 octaves I believe) and that have > somewhat smallish shells. While I recognize that getting our own > timps has many advantages (the heads are not abused by high school > students), I find the tone of the smaller drums slightly less > desirable. > > ____ > > TYMPANI, And TIMP, etc, Is a PLURAL word. > one instrument is a kettledrum. two are TYMPANI (or a host of other > spellings) but NOT TIMPS, or Tympanys/Tympanies, etc. > More than one kettledrum is a set of Timp, not Timps. > > We get complaints when we see "coronet" on ebay, or another Brass instrument > name misspelled. So I needed to point this one out. > > Tom > Full time Trombonist > Part time Grammer Police ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:11:35 +0000 From: posaune rex Subject: test why am i not geting amd list mail? this is a test stacy werblin http://remember.to/practice _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:20:04 +0000 From: robert.osterlund@ATTBI.COM Subject: lip balm: to use, or not to use (update) Folks: Thanks for all who responded to my earlier posts about lip balm in relation to embouchure problems (swelling, bruising). Adding to the collective wisdom, this is what I have learned (*about me*, your mileage may vary): --Constant use of lip balm seems to be bad for me. Nearly three weeks after going "cold turkey," my lips are back to a near "normal" color, thickness, and suppleness. --My embouchure was too high on the mouthpiece. I now play with the more standard 2/3 upper lip, 1/3 lower lip on the mp. --I play another instrument--recorder (all sizes). Playing recorder after trombone practice is bad. After playing trombone, I need to give my chops a rest. (Doh!) I now try to practice trombone at the end of the day, not earlier like before. My lips are now in much better shape--no signs of bruising, minimal to no swelling. *My* "high" notes are coming easier, as are *my* lowest notes. I can now do four-step, downward-then-upward lip slurs. I am able to play pedal tones for the first time. Hooray! I am seeing these improvements despite my having switched to a much smaller mouthpiece (and a different, smaller-bore trombone). I discovered a great web site that gave me useful insights into my problems. See http://www.embouchures.com/ It seems I was suffering through "embouchure malaise." Basically, you play too hard and/or for too long. Your lips bruise and swell. You compensate for the resultant poor tone quality by "fixing" your embouchure, also by practicing extra hard and long (also by acquiring a lip balm dependency?). The problem worsens. You "fix" your embouchure and practice still more (and slather on the lip balm?). You are now in a downward spiral to embouchure malaise. The solution is to ease up (but not stop playing entirely) and stick to (or revert to) the proper playing mechanics (and stop using lip balm?). The book "Broken Embouchures: An Embouchure Handbook and Repair Guide", connected with the www.embouchures.com web site, is due out soon. It should be an interesting read! Thanks again to all who have helped, are helping, me work through these problems. Berto -- robert.osterlund@attbi.com http://earlymusichicago.home.attbi.com/ http://earlymusichicago.org/earlymusichicago/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:50:29 -0800 From: List Monitor Subject: Re: test Rather than sending a test message to the entire list, please visit http://po.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/wa You will have to register using the e-mail address to which your trombone-l mail is sent. Once you have registered, you will be able to check all subscription settings through the web interface. The most usual cause for no mail is that returned mail was received from your address, and to avoid having the listprocessor software automatically delete your subscription, the mail preference was set to "Mail Delivery Temporarily Disabled." Please do not hesitate to e-mail with any questions. LM ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: posaune rex Reply-To: posaune rex Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:11:35 +0000 >why am i not geting amd list mail? this is a test > > > >stacy werblin >http://remember.to/practice > > >__________________________________________________ _______________ >STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:18:38 EST From: BassBonist@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? jeanvaljean@ntsource.com writes: > Tom > Full time Trombonist > Part time Grammer Police Would that be Kelsey Grammer Police? Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:58:43 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? From: "Craig Parmerlee" > At 09:06 AM 11/13/2002 +0000, Adrian Drover wrote: > >Oh, and tell them if they're going to use timpani to get the spelling > >correct. > > Over here, it seems to be spelled "tympani" most of the time, judging on > the catalogs from the big drum retailers and manufacturers. See: > > http://www.pearldrum.com/adams.pdf > http://www.hickeys.com/cgi/display.cgi?page=ty55.htm > http://www.remo.com/catalog2/dh.cfm > Interesting. Do you suppose they all have it wrong. I used to spell it with a "y" too until I was reprimanded many years ago for doing so. All the music books I have (including American, Walter Piston) spell it "timpani". Oxford Dictionary of Music lists specifically "Timpani (NOT tympani): It. for kettledrums...." and "Tympani. A common misspelling of timpani....". My Microsoft spell-checker however accepts it both ways, but what does Bill Gates know? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:41:47 -0600 From: dajohansen@I-55.COM Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? ------=_Part_371_30724389.1037216507310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > TYMPANI, And TIMP, etc, Is a PLURAL word. > one instrument is a kettledrum. two are TYMPANI (or a host of other > spellings) but NOT TIMPS, or Tympanys/Tympanies, etc. > More than one kettledrum is a set of Timp, not Timps. > > We get complaints when we see "coronet" on ebay, or another Brass instrument > name misspelled. So I needed to point this one out. > > Tom > Full time Trombonist > Part time Grammer Police Tom- It's been a long time since I studied this stuff, but I seem to recall learning in an orchestration class that the singular for tympani is tympano. Is that right or did I dream that? Dave ------=_Part_371_30724389.1037216507310 Content-Type: text/plain; name="Original message"; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Original message" Hey people, I've stayed out of this for awhile, but now I need to "chime" in (pun intended). As primarily a Trombonist, but also a doubler of Percussion including Tympani, I guess I need to set the record straight. At 2:09 PM -0400 11/12/02, Craig Parmerlee wrote: > >It seems to me that the drums could be 1/4 their size and work quite nicely. Andy added: ___ hall and that especially has to do with finding a good spot for the timps. So, I do understand the volume problems quite well. community orchestra recently invested in a set of 4 timps that have a rather large range on each drum (1.5 octaves I believe) and that have somewhat smallish shells. While I recognize that getting our own timps has many advantages (the heads are not abused by high school students), I find the tone of the smaller drums slightly less desirable. ____ TYMPANI, And TIMP, etc, Is a PLURAL word. one instrument is a kettledrum. two are TYMPANI (or a host of other spellings) but NOT TIMPS, or Tympanys/Tympanies, etc. More than one kettledrum is a set of Timp, not Timps. We get complaints when we see "coronet" on ebay, or another Brass instrument name misspelled. So I needed to point this one out. Tom Full time Trombonist Part time Grammer Police ------=_Part_371_30724389.1037216507310-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:56:59 -0500 From: Peter Jarnebrant Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? FWIW, the italian word for kettledrum is a *timpano*,pl. *timpani*, and i suppose we are sort of looking for the italian word. it is related to the latin word for (ear-)drum, *tympanum*, which doesn't make it much easier to decide the proper english form, does it. //peter Quoting Adrian Drover : > From: "Craig Parmerlee" > > > > At 09:06 AM 11/13/2002 +0000, Adrian Drover wrote: > > >Oh, and tell them if they're going to use timpani to get the > spelling > > >correct. > > > > Over here, it seems to be spelled "tympani" most of the time, > judging on > > the catalogs from the big drum retailers and manufacturers. See: > > > > http://www.pearldrum.com/adams.pdf > > http://www.hickeys.com/cgi/display.cgi?page=ty55.htm > > http://www.remo.com/catalog2/dh.cfm > > > > Interesting. Do you suppose they all have it wrong. I used to spell > it > with a "y" too until I was reprimanded many years ago for doing so. > All the > music books I have (including American, Walter Piston) spell it > "timpani". > Oxford Dictionary of Music lists specifically "Timpani (NOT tympani): > It. > for kettledrums...." and "Tympani. A common misspelling of > timpani....". > > My Microsoft spell-checker however accepts it both ways, but what > does Bill > Gates know? > > A. > > Adrian Drover > ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk > Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:04:38 -0500 From: Chuck De Paolo Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? Go to google.com and type "tympani" and you'll get some 22,000 hits, the first of which is "tympani.com." I guess it's just one of those words that has two legal spellings. I recall a few years ago programming our order system to tag orders that had been "terminated." The word to use was the past tense of "cancel." Turns out, "canceled" can be spelled with either one "l" or two. So "cancelled" is just as valid as "canceled." Personally, I like the double-L version, it just looks nicer. Must be the suppressed architect in me. --Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: Adrian Drover To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 12:58 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Who invented tympani anyway? From: "Craig Parmerlee" > At 09:06 AM 11/13/2002 +0000, Adrian Drover wrote: > >Oh, and tell them if they're going to use timpani to get the spelling > >correct. > > Over here, it seems to be spelled "tympani" most of the time, judging on > the catalogs from the big drum retailers and manufacturers. See: > > http://www.pearldrum.com/adams.pdf > http://www.hickeys.com/cgi/display.cgi?page=ty55.htm > http://www.remo.com/catalog2/dh.cfm > Interesting. Do you suppose they all have it wrong. I used to spell it with a "y" too until I was reprimanded many years ago for doing so. All the music books I have (including American, Walter Piston) spell it "timpani". Oxford Dictionary of Music lists specifically "Timpani (NOT tympani): It. for kettledrums...." and "Tympani. A common misspelling of timpani....". My Microsoft spell-checker however accepts it both ways, but what does Bill Gates know? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:59:29 -0700 From: william david proctor Subject: Re: New Windplayer Gallery (jazz prints) --On Tuesday, November 12, 2002 2:17 PM +0000 Adrian Drover wrote: >> Hmmm. Is that why we have to sell pizzas? > > > Well, I guess selling them is preferable to eating them. Sorry, Adrian, I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one! TROMBONE CONTENT: I don't eat pizza while playing trombone. David Proctor bass trombone University of New Mexico ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:42:47 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo Subject: Re: Parallel question on contras My friend, Arnold Myers, Director and Curator of Edinburgh University Collection of Historic Musical Instruments and the owner of the Leipzig Gewandhaus contrabass trombone I referenced in a post a few days ago, is having difficult with his list subscription, so he asked me to forward the following message to the list which sheds more light on the instrument. -Doug Yeo ==== Doug Yeo writes (5.11.02) about my contrabass trombone (ex- Leipzig Gewandhaus): > > More photos of interesting contrabass trombones can be found on the > > Edinburgh University Museum site at: > > > > http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/ucj/ucjth3.html > > The website doesn't give much information about the two contrabass > > trombones shown there (click on the photos to view larger images). > > Below is the entry for each instrument from the museum's printed > > catalog. Note that 3208 is actually in E flat + F + B flat (+A flat) > > and NOT in F + E flat + B flat as indicated on the website ... Since writing the catalogue I have discovered that the valve linkage can be assembled either so that operating this valve changes the instrument from F to Eb, or vice-versa. The instrument is thus not a modified Dehmel model in E flat + F + B flat (+A flat) as I wrote in the catalogue, but the original Dehmel model in F + E flat + B flat (+A flat). I believe it is more likely that it was originally intended to stand in 12-ft F. However, the fact remains that when I bought it in Leipzig it was assembled to stand in 13-ft Eb, so perhaps its most recent previous player found that preferable. -Arnold Myers (am@holyrood.ed.ac.uk) ==== -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:10:42 +0000 From: alan partis Subject: long tones instruction Fellow Listers, I really don't want to start a long public discussion about the various merits of long tones, but I would very much like to solicit advice from this group. I have long been a student of the Remington warm-up exercises, but after a recent multi-year layoff I'm looking to rebuild my playing chops "better than they were before" by augmenting my current warm-up and practice routine. Please feel free to advise me (privately would be fine) as to what you have found to be your best exercises to build and maintain best tone quality and stability, flexibility, and range. I'm particularly interested in specifics about your long tone exercises as I have come to understand that there exists a school of thought somewhat different from the classic Remington school. If it makes a difference, I am more of a chamber and orchestral musician than jazz or 'other'. Thanks in advance for your valuable advice. ______________________________________ alan partis, amateur bonehead louisville, ky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:25:20 -0600 From: s76lewis Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? I thought it was spelled tympanii as its plural form. Trombone content: a 9th grade trombone student plays tympanii in our community band. And you can tell he eats his Wheaties! Sandy Lewis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Drover" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Who invented tympani anyway? > From: "Craig Parmerlee" > > > > At 09:06 AM 11/13/2002 +0000, Adrian Drover wrote: > > >Oh, and tell them if they're going to use timpani to get the spelling > > >correct. > > > > Over here, it seems to be spelled "tympani" most of the time, judging on > > the catalogs from the big drum retailers and manufacturers. See: > > > > http://www.pearldrum.com/adams.pdf > > http://www.hickeys.com/cgi/display.cgi?page=ty55.htm > > http://www.remo.com/catalog2/dh.cfm > > > > Interesting. Do you suppose they all have it wrong. I used to spell it > with a "y" too until I was reprimanded many years ago for doing so. All the > music books I have (including American, Walter Piston) spell it "timpani". > Oxford Dictionary of Music lists specifically "Timpani (NOT tympani): It. > for kettledrums...." and "Tympani. A common misspelling of timpani....". > > My Microsoft spell-checker however accepts it both ways, but what does Bill > Gates know? > > A. > > Adrian Drover > ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk > Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:18:31 -0500 From: Carl Lenthe Subject: Re: Parallel question on contras > However, the fact remains that when I bought it in > Leipzig it was assembled to stand in 13-ft Eb, so perhaps its most > recent previous player found that preferable. This could enable the player to equate the relative positions to the alto trombone in e-flat. I did a quick study on the bass sackbut (in e-flat) that way once, years ago, and found the similarity very helpful. It was all very much enlarged, but familiar. And - absolutely no danger of going off the end of the slide! Carl Lenthe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Yeo" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:42 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Parallel question on contras > My friend, Arnold Myers, Director and Curator of Edinburgh University > Collection of Historic Musical Instruments and the owner of the > Leipzig Gewandhaus contrabass trombone I referenced in a post a few > days ago, is having difficult with his list subscription, so he asked > me to forward the following message to the list which sheds more > light on the instrument. > > -Doug Yeo > > ==== > > > Doug Yeo writes (5.11.02) about my contrabass trombone (ex- Leipzig > Gewandhaus): > > > > More photos of interesting contrabass trombones can be found on the > > > Edinburgh University Museum site at: > > > > > > http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/ucj/ucjth3.html > > > The website doesn't give much information about the two contrabass > > > trombones shown there (click on the photos to view larger images). > > > Below is the entry for each instrument from the museum's printed > > > catalog. Note that 3208 is actually in E flat + F + B flat (+A flat) > > > and NOT in F + E flat + B flat as indicated on the website ... > > > Since writing the catalogue I have discovered that the valve linkage > can be assembled either so that operating this valve changes the > instrument from F to Eb, or vice-versa. > > The instrument is thus not a modified Dehmel model in E flat + F + B > flat (+A flat) as I wrote in the catalogue, but the original Dehmel > model in F + E flat + B flat (+A flat). > > I believe it is more likely that it was originally intended to stand > in 12-ft F. However, the fact remains that when I bought it in > Leipzig it was assembled to stand in 13-ft Eb, so perhaps its most > recent previous player found that preferable. > > -Arnold Myers (am@holyrood.ed.ac.uk) > > ==== > -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:45:34 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: 12c in a bass bone? Sorry...lost the original in some sort of cyber-accident. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >I know a guy that was using a 12c in a bass bone. I got him to >change to a much larger >mp for playing 4th in our big band. He is coming along. > >But my question is this - what about larger mp's in small bore >tenors? Sam mentioned >earlier about oveblowing a small bore horn w/ a 6.5AL. Well, I (as >is Wayne Dyess I >guess) am partial to 6.5AL - just cannot seem to get the range I >like when blowing on a >7C or 12 C. > >Anyone know what Sam meant by "overblowing"?? >Blatty? Out 'o tune? Nasty overtones? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D All of the above plus flabby and unfocused. Overblowing. Inaccurate term. Sorry. Trombone shorthand. Maybe this will help=8A It is useful to think of the m'pce as if it were an engine for a car, and the airstream/air cavity/tongue/embouchure as the fuel and fuel delivery system. If you were to take a stock 4 cylinder Mommy/DaddyToyota Corolla and drop a 300 hp engine in it, the car would be almost undriveable unless: 1-There were extensive modifications done on the chassis, suspension, brakes, steering etc. and 2-The driver was an expert w/complete control over all aspects of driving. Ditto large m'pces and small horns. Also=8Aengines are rated both by horsepower (total flat out power available) and also by torque. (Where and how fast that power comes on during the revolutions per minute curve.) The range/dynamics curve of a horn and player equals the engine's rpm curve. Not only must a m'pce the right size, but it must be the right size for the general parameters of what it is being asked to do. High, low, loud, soft, a little of everything or a lot of one or two things. Which? On what horn? For what player? Now a REALLY good driver could take that souped up Toyota and drive it well, no matter how overmatched the chassis might be. He could also take a Cadillac w/the Toyota's little 4 cylinder 112 hp engine and drive it safely, if not spectacularly. But ideally=8A and this is what racing pros do day in and day out=8Athe car's various components would be perfectly matched. It would have just enough hp + torque to do the job w/out stressing the entire system and using too much fuel=8Aand then the driver could concentrate on driving rather than nursing along a badly matched up set of subsystems. Ditto for us. Some drivers like high rpm engines. Some like low end torque. Some=8Athe best=8Awant what ever works for the track and the car, and learn to adjust. Again=8Aditto for us. Or you could fuggedaboudit and just play the best feeling m'pce. (There's the trick=8Aright back to the same concept again. Backwoods moonshine runner or high tech Formula 1 racer=8Aif it feels right, it is right. Seat of the pants equipment choice.) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >How many out there in t-bone land like using relatively large mp's >on small bore tenors? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Lots in NY=8AKeith O'Quinn, Jason Jackson, Larry Farrell, Gary Valente, Dave Bargeron, Bruce Bonvissutto, Papo Vasquez, myself for many years, others=8A .509 or smaller horns, 6 1/2 A or larger m'pces. But these are very good drivers, and other equally good ones are playing 11Cs or smaller on the same general equipment=8ABritt Woodman, Urbie Green, Jim Pugh, Clarence Banks=8A =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >Is it generally bad for your embouchre to change the size mp you use >on a regular basis >(say one for concert band and a smaller one for jazz)? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Generally I find it better to find the right m'pce for each horn, and the right horn for each gig=8Abut no matter which method you choose, you still have to practice them equally, at least for the first few years. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Thanks. Jim Dexter =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D You're welcome=8A Sam Burtis -- (Proud proprietor of The Trombone Store in NYC, featuring fine new and used lower brass instruments and accessories. Visit us on the web at or call us at [718] 796-4413. By appointment only.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:47:06 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Re: Parallel question on contras Perhaps this is why they did not apply this in-line technology to the regular german bass trombone in Bb/F: in this case one of the valves established the overall key of the instrument to suit the player (F or Eb) and then the second valve was to facilitate the lower notes and fill in the gaps. They had the perfect design for an inline bass trombone in 1930 and didn't know it--open wrap to boot! This is a beautiful instrument, though I don't know what it sounds like, but to look at it it seems wonderful. Randy Campora Baltimore ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:53:03 EST From: SFTrombone@AOL.COM Subject: Minick alto trombone for sale I have a Minick Eb alto trombone for sale. It's .500" bore with a small bell but a big sound, great condition, a little lacquer wear on the neckpipe area, comes with a leather gig bag, $1600, nice playing horn, one of my favorites of all the altos I have here, call for more info Steve Ferguson 818 951 9598 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:57:16 -0600 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? Dave, TECHNICALLY, in Italian, You would be right on. But the plural has been brought over into English, the sigular has not. Go figure. The Computer platforms mess things up too, I notice. I double-checked my sent files, & my reply definately had GrammAr (with an "a". But all these replies to my replies have me seamingly misspelling GrammEr (with an "e"). Sheesh!!!!! Maybe I should go back to smoke signals & combs & whistles. :-) Tom -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of dajohansen@I-55.COM Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 1:42 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Who invented tympani anyway? > TYMPANI, And TIMP, etc, Is a PLURAL word. > one instrument is a kettledrum. two are TYMPANI (or a host of other > spellings) but NOT TIMPS, or Tympanys/Tympanies, etc. > More than one kettledrum is a set of Timp, not Timps. > > We get complaints when we see "coronet" on ebay, or another Brass instrument > name misspelled. So I needed to point this one out. > > Tom > Full time Trombonist > Part time Grammer Police Tom- It's been a long time since I studied this stuff, but I seem to recall learning in an orchestration class that the singular for tympani is tympano. Is that right or did I dream that? Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:08:28 -0500 From: john burton Subject: Re: 12c in a bass bone? I found when moving from a Bach 1 1/2 G to a Schilke 59 my articulation goes all the way out the spit valve (water key?).. This on a Bach 50B3. Oh well, guess that's what happens when you make the jump to a bass after playing a pea-shooter for years... But ya gotta LOVE those big pedal notes on the Schilke!!! --==jb==-- -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of sabutin Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 5:46 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] 12c in a bass bone? [Large snnnnip here] ============== > >Is it generally bad for your embouchre to change the size mp you use on >a regular basis (say one for concert band and a smaller one for jazz)? =========== Generally I find it better to find the right m'pce for each horn, and the right horn for each gig©but no matter which method you choose, you still have to practice them equally, at least for the first few years. =============== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:10:58 -0500 From: "Hector Bourg Jr." Subject: Re: Who invented tympani anyway? > Dave, > > TECHNICALLY, in Italian, You would be right on. But the plural has been > brought over into English, the sigular has not. Go figure. > > The Computer platforms mess things up too, I notice. > I double-checked my sent files, & my reply definately had GrammAr (with an > "a". But all these replies to my replies have me seamingly misspelling > GrammEr (with an "e"). Sheesh!!!!! > > Maybe I should go back to smoke signals & combs & whistles. :-) Yep!...your platform has done it again Tom ...it changed "definitely" to "definately," and "seemingly" to "seamingly!" Just what kind of platform are you using? :-) Butch (all in fun Tom!) > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of dajohansen@I-55.COM > Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 1:42 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Who invented tympani anyway? > > > > TYMPANI, And TIMP, etc, Is a PLURAL word. > > one instrument is a kettledrum. two are TYMPANI (or a host of other > > spellings) but NOT TIMPS, or Tympanys/Tympanies, etc. > > More than one kettledrum is a set of Timp, not Timps. > > > > We get complaints when we see "coronet" on ebay, or another Brass > instrument > > name misspelled. So I needed to point this one out. > > > > Tom > > Full time Trombonist > > Part time Grammer Police > > Tom- > > It's been a long time since I studied this stuff, but I seem to recall > learning > in an orchestration class that the singular for tympani is tympano. Is that > right or did I dream that? > > Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:28:22 EST From: BassBonist@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Parallel question on contras Randy Campora wrote: > They had the perfect design for an inline bass trombone in 1930 and didn't > know it--open wrap to boot! This is a beautiful instrument, though I don't > know what it sounds like, but to look at it it seems wonderful. > I thought that same thing as far as the "beauty" aspect. Also, I was so pleased to see a 62 year old instrument in such great condition! Hope my bass looks that good 25 years from now. Matt Varho ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:31:01 EST From: BassBonist@AOL.COM Subject: Tympani, Schmimpani Timpani or Tympani... Who cares? They should always be called: PAUKEN ! Matt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:07:31 EST From: Wcdemmert@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Parallel question on contras The Leipzig Gewandhaus contrabass trombone looks exactly like the Alexander F Contra Bass Trombone that Stuart Dempster owns. Wade Demmert http://www.americansinfonietta.org http://www.fineartscamp.org ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 12 Nov 2002 to 13 Nov 2002 (#2002-123) *****************************************************************