Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 2 Nov 2002 to 3 Nov 2002 (#2002-113) There are 20 messages totalling 738 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Heavy trombones man. Heavy... 2. Storing the trombone 3. Socks on stand (was: Storing the trombone) (2) 4. Socks on stand (3) 5. 2 Trombones and piano (4) 6. Advanced trombone grip - it's the angle (4) 7. Holding the Darn Horn Up! (2) 8. OTJ Classifieds Update - 11/3/2002 9. funny (was Re:state of the trombone) 10. Ergobone ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 08:12:30 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Heavy trombones man. Heavy... From: "Daniel Pliskin" > I now have weights on the two trombones that I keep on stands. Hope you got the builders in to reinforce the floor supports in your practice room. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 08:06:10 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Storing the trombone From: "Dale Cruse" > Does anyone think I should leave the sock on the stand when I store my > digital bugle for the night? And does anyone know how I can sign up for the > DigitalBugle-L list? Personally, I wouldn't waiste my money on a digi-bugle. The analog bugle gets a more authentic sound. The electronic instrument doesn't yet include ear jarring "Untonation". A. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 08:19:41 -0000 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Socks on stand (was: Storing the trombone) Word of warning. Don't use nylon socks. Every time you lift the 'bone, sparks jump from the mp to your chops. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 09:42:44 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Socks on stand (was: Storing the trombone) >Word of warning. Don't use nylon socks. Every time you lift the 'bone, >sparks jump from the mp to your chops. > >A. > >Adrian Drover =================== Ideal for us hot jazz players, of course... S, ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 10:23:26 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Socks on stand At 08:19 AM 11/3/2002 +0000, Adrian Drover wrote: >Word of warning. Don't use nylon socks. Every time you lift the 'bone, >sparks jump from the mp to your chops. If you shave your legs regularly, your nylons won't generate as much static electricity. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 11:31:36 -0600 From: Howard Patty Subject: Re: Socks on stand Those felt Crown Royal bags work great for your stand. -Howard ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:52:10 EST From: BassBonist@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Socks on stand > Those felt Crown Royal bags work great for your stand. > > -Howard > Yes, they do work very well and are a classy addition to your trombone stand. Plus, when you buy one of those nifty bags, the Crown Royal people give you a free bonus: A bottle of Crown Royal! You have inspired me! Off to the liquor store! Matt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 07:52:45 -0800 From: jimandcat@JUNO.COM Subject: 2 Trombones and piano One of my college students asked me today about finding a trombone duet with piano accompaniment for a performance class. Does anyone know of such a thing? Perhaps a duet of other instruments with piano that could be adapted for low brass? Jim Prindle ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 14:01:03 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Subject: Advanced trombone grip - it's the angle Yup, I've had another of my wacko ideas. I've invented a new way to hold the trombone. Well, new to me, anyway, and I've never seen anyone do this, but I'm sure somebody has thought of this before. Last week at rehearsal I had left hand pain and by the end of two hours could no longer hold the horn. No problem, the next day I switched to playing left handed to give it a rest. Actually that's working better than I expected, except of course I can't reach the trigger, but it was amazing how tired and stiff the right hand now gets. It made me think a bit of how much work the stationary hand actually does, and in pondering Get-a-Grip, extra braces, etc., to solve it, since my right hand doesn't have the strength the left hand did, I came up with something. Most of us maintain the angle between slide section and gooseneck near 90 degrees or slightly less. I move mine in as far as I can before my thumbnail hits the bell, because I use the Yeo grip. However, I tried moving the angle to 135 degrees, and found major improvement. It now takes no hand strength and my right hand is able to stay relaxed. (I still can't reach the trigger, maybe I'll carry a paper clip for that) Here's why. The function of the grip hand is to do four things. It resists the purely vertical force of gravity and resists the torque on the three axes of roll, pitch, and yaw. Let me define those terms. Point your slide at the doorknob. While keeping it pointing there, rotate the horn so your mouthpiece describes a describes a circle - that is roll. Pitch is the up and down bobbing of the horn (pointing above and below the doorknob), and most horns are nose heavy, so your hand works to resist that. Yaw is the side to side motion you cause with your slide hand and the least of the problems, as the force is minimal and the better slide technique you have the less you have to do anything. The Yeo grip gives you much better ability to resist pitch, that is one of the reasons it can be more relaxed. However, it reduces your ability to resist roll, which I think is the most harmful of the four forces. So when I use the Yeo grip, I have to minimize the slide-to-bell angle to reduce the rolling torque. But, if you simply widen this angle to somewhere in the 135 degree range, a number of very good things happen. The bell flare rests on your forearm. That makes roll impossible, and you are using no hand strength at all. It also assists pitch control, as well as allowing the Yeo grip its best functioning. And it gives you a second point, maybe even a third, to resist vertical force. (It is easy to adjust the angle so the gooseneck actually sits on your shoulder and your gripping hand has to do almost nothing.) It looks very strange. Your bell is now below the slide - and happily no longer will block your vision. Mute changes are easy, no slide to get past. Interference with your finger and the bell is now almost impossible, no more broken thumbnails! and you are unlikely to use the bell as a cheat for third position because you probably can't reach it. The valve no longer sticks into your neck. Etc., etc. So what's the downside? So far I haven't come up with one, except for looking a little goofy. But come to think of it, a number of us look pretty goofy anyway. There must be another reason, or we'd see more players do it, but I don't know what it is. At first my right shoulder had trouble staying relaxed, because it "wanted" to reach up and help, but a little practice took care of that. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:32:15 -0600 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: Advanced trombone grip - it's the angle Tim, Yup, I've had another of my wacko ideas. I've invented a new way to hold the trombone. Well, new to me, anyway, and I've never seen anyone do this, but I'm sure somebody has thought of this before. ______________________________ Not really new, but not so common. Last week at rehearsal I had left hand pain and by the end of two hours could no longer hold the horn. No problem, the next day I switched to playing left handed to give it a rest. Actually that's working better than I expected, except of course I can't reach the trigger, but it was amazing how tired and stiff the right hand now gets. When I'm not playing a "triggered" horn (e.g.: for Jazz or Dixieland, etc) I often play lefthanded, If you've never done this it could be good ear training. I often have my students do it whenever I see them "reaching" for the bell for third or 4th position. If I switch their trbs around, they're forced to play with their ears. An awakening!!!! Tom ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:15:40 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Advanced trombone grip - it's the angle >But, if you simply widen this angle to somewhere in the 135 degree range, a >number of very good things happen. The bell flare rests on your forearm. I haven't tried it, yet, but I like it. >So what's the downside? So far I haven't come up with one, except for >looking a little goofy. But maybe something like those things that allow you to rest a telephone on your shoulder, would work and look a bit less silly. But then, what does it matter. Most people don't know what a trombone is anyway. If it's totally new to them anyway, let them see it with the bell resting on your arm or shoulder. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:37:55 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Advanced trombone grip - it's the angle I do something that might help with your Yoe grip. I buy a piece of rubber tubing (about 3 inches long), with an inside diameter that just fits over the lower tube of the slide, where it rests on my left-hand palm. I slit the tube lengthwise, so it’s easy to put over that tube, and cut out notches for the inner slide cross-member. It gives you a bit more to grab onto, with your left hand. On my heavier trombone (which is still only a medium-bore), I’ve also built up that piece of rubber tubing with foam tape, so that I can grip the trombone with my hand rotated slightly and my palm facing my neck. It’s very comfortable. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 18:16:53 -0500 From: Randy Campora Subject: Holding the Darn Horn Up! It's probably my imagination, and probably not something the audience notices, but when I put the bell section at such and angle as described, I don't hear as much of my sound when I am playing. Maybe it is just the fact that one's ears have grown accustomed to hearing the sound emanate from a certain point for so many years, I don't know. Also, it seems that when I experimented with this angle of the bell section, I had to keep the left forearm up high in order for the bell to actually rest on it. That's my memory of my trials anyway. Now here is something interesting I'll lay on you: I had a lesson with Joe Alessi a couple years ago, Joe was very gracious with his time when I was on tour to NYC and it was a very fruitful hour for me. At the end of the lesson, he said something that made my ears perk up: "When I learned how to hold the trombone, it revolutionized my playing." Now when Joe uses the phrase "revolutionized my playing", I think this deserves my attention. So what did he mean? Well, some years ago, I don't know when exactly, he said that he realized that he had over the years allowed himself to become lazy in holding the trombone, such that it just kind of resided on the shoulder somewhere, wherever it wanted to. Joe's solution: to roll the left wrist so that the neckpipe of the trombone comes up and away from the player's neck, and thus making the crossbars of the slide (the bar that you are holding onto the slide with) almost parallel to the plane of the floor below you, and the bell flare comes up and closer to your head. The trombone is now NOT touching your neck, it is not resting on your shoulder. Does that description make any sense? I hope so. The important part of what is happening here is not at the neck or the crossbar of the slide, but up at the embouchure/mouthpiece connection point. This now becomes the point of connection to the body between the instrument and the player, and the horn is able to find the proper angle for the particular partial you are playing on, your facial design, etc. You are not allowing the horn to dictate where it will sit and adjusting your body to the horn, and the mouthpiece is more likely to be exactly where it would be when you are doing your buzzing exercises off the horn. The benefit that can come out of this for some players is that the mouthpiece is usually going to be in a more perfect spot on the chops for the note you are playing, and I think specifically, you will keep more of the upper lip in the ring of the mouthpiece which will keep your sound at its fattest and thickest and most resonant, and will aid endurance. This trick may work better for some players than others, depending on your present set up and how it matches your face and your chops and the demands of your playing environment. It sounds rather silly, but try it yourself and experiment and see if there is something there for you. Try this experiment: lock your hand slide, hold the trombone with both hands, one on each slide tube, with the trombone away from the neck and the slide crossbar parallel to the floor. With this grip put the horn up and play some notes in the upper, middle and pedal ranges, do some lip slurs, do some arpeggios, do some skips from one register to the other, do some FFF notes, then some PPP notes, play the opening of Tuba Mirum minus the low D. See if you feel that you have more control, more mastery over the situation than when you hold your horn the same old way you always have. As you play in different registers, experiment by changing the angle of the horn slightly, front to back, to find the optimum angle for your face and that particular note. Take note of how easy it is to change the angle of the horn when it's away from your shoulder. Take note of the better centering of certain notes, if that is happening. If you like the way this works with your playing, then the Alessi wrist shift will help your playing. If you don't notice much, then it won't affect it too much perhaps--but that's good, you are probably doing it better than the rest of us already anyway! A note to bass trombonists: we all struggle with the weight of the horn, as we get tired we list to the left side, either the whole upper body, or the head, or the horn shifts down and to the left on our embouchure, weakening our sound capabilities without our even knowing it. This wrist shift attempts to address this. But the weight of the bass will make it hard on the wrist at first. It is hard to maintain in long practice sessions, but much easier to do in an orchestral rehearsal/performance situation because we have all those rests everywhere. So maybe try it out in your rehearsals as an experiment. Also, the inline Thayer bass that I am playing now makes this wrist shift more difficult than my dependent thayer bell section--there is more stuff sitting to the inside of the bell section and when I roll the wrist over the 2nd valve pokes me right in the ear. Bummer, but I keep trying to get comfy and find that rolling the wrist even if my ear gets bumped is better for my playing than not rolling the wrist and just letting the horn hang where it wants to. I am using a Greenhoe bar and this helps as well. BTW, Sabutin addresses the "horn slipping off the embouchure" phenomenon in his book, the only place I have ever encountered it in print. Go Sabutin! I had experimented with the wrist roll before I heard it from Joe, and it was nice to have that concept validated by him, such that I now put more stock in the idea myself. Well, there's your crazy tip for the day from Baltimore, B'more city, the city where you can be more... ~Randy Campora Sumo-sized Trombone (that's bass...) Baltimore Symphony Orchestra ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 18:52:35 -0600 From: Chris Waage Subject: OTJ Classifieds Update - 11/3/2002 The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds (http://www.trombone.org/classifieds) have been updated as of 6:50 PM CST on November 3, 2002. - - - - - Thank you for using the OTJ Classifieds! - - - - - OTJ Classifieds Frequently Asked Questions http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/faq.asp OTJ Gift Shoppe: http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=trombones If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone Journal Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org. Chris -- ________________________________________________ Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster chris@trombone.org http://www.trombone.org - A web site for trombonists ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 17:05:42 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: funny (was Re:state of the trombone) Hmmm....must be something about oboes.... Whenever my teacher, Ray Premru, was asked what was in his gig bag as he was carrying it on a plane with him, he would answer that it was an oboe. He'd learned that it was usually on the list (that no longer seems to exist) of instruments approved for carry-on, and that enough flight attendants didn't know what an oboe looked like (or had enough sense of humor, maybe) that he could usually get away with it. When that didn't work and they wanted to check his bag, he'd take the trombone out of it, hand them the bag, and start carrying in the pieces. By the way, I was just (today) charged $80 to check my anvil flight case - not for being over weight but over size. I guess they changed the regulations. I'm going to write a nasty letter and try to get my money back. Gabe --- H du Plooy wrote: > I don't recall seeing any > pictures of oboes, so I checked them out. Imagine my > surprised when I saw the tuba player with his Double Bb > monster.... > > Hans du Plooy > > BJMCHAFFIE@AOL.COM wrote: > > A couple of Sundays back I was asked if that was my > Oboe.. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:21:05 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo Subject: Re: 2 Trombones and piano Eric Ewazen's "Pastorale" for tenor and bass trombone with piano is in preparation for publication by Southern Music; it should be out very soon. It was recorded by Nick Hudson and me on our CD "Two of a Mind." (http://www.yeodoug.com/two_of_a_mind.html) Southern Music is also preparing the Duo from Cantata 78 of JS Bach (two trombones with piano) which Nick and I also recorded on "Two of a Mind." My guess it that will be available early next year. Many years ago I played a piece called "Duet" for two trombones and piano by Charles Small (composer of "Conversation"). My copy is in Charlie's manuscript, I don't know if it is published or by whom - I see the Hickeys catalog has a piece by that title listed but the listing doesn't say if it is with piano. -Doug Yeo -- Douglas Yeo Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra Music Director, The New England Brass Band dyeo@rcn.com /// yeo@yeodoug.com http://www.yeodoug.com <>< ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 17:30:32 -0800 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: 2 Trombones and piano There's a piece by Walter Hartley called the Florida Concerto for tenor & bass trombone. I have it with a piano reduction. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:45:26 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo Subject: Re: 2 Trombones and piano And another: Vaclav Nelhybel's "Concertato" for tenor and bass trombone and wind ensemble, which is also available in a reduction for piano and percussion accompaniment. Published by Southern Music. -Doug Yeo -- Douglas Yeo Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra Music Director, The New England Brass Band dyeo@rcn.com /// yeo@yeodoug.com http://www.yeodoug.com <>< ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 03:10:04 +0000 From: posaune rex Subject: Ergobone Has anyone tried the Ergobone? It's supposed to take the weight off of the left hand while you're playing. It seems like a good idea to me, but I'd like some opinions from others, maybe people who tried it, before I buy my own. Any ideas??? ps, if you havent seen it yet, go to http://www.ergobone.com stacy http:/remember.to/practice _________________________________________________________________ Unlimited Internet access for only $21.95/month. Try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 23:53:58 -0600 From: Corliss Subject: Re: Holding the Darn Horn Up! I don't find resting the trombone on the shoulder to be a live option. Maybe that's because of my smaller horns. If the slide crossbar is parallel to the ground then, it seems to me, that the right hand is going to carry some of the weight of the horn and not be as free as it should. Keeping the slide and bell at the same angle away from a line perpendicular (?) to the floor keeps it balanced resting on the left hand. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Campora" To: Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 5:16 PM Subject: [TBN-L] Holding the Darn Horn Up! > > I had a lesson with Joe Alessi a couple years ago, Joe was very gracious > with his time when I was on tour to NYC and it was a very fruitful hour for > me. At the end of the lesson, he said something that made my ears perk up: > > "When I learned how to hold the trombone, it revolutionized my playing." > > Now when Joe uses the phrase "revolutionized my playing", I think this > deserves my attention. So what did he mean? > > Well, some years ago, I don't know when exactly, he said that he realized > that he had over the years allowed himself to become lazy in holding the > trombone, such that it just kind of resided on the shoulder somewhere, > wherever it wanted to. > > Joe's solution: to roll the left wrist so that the neckpipe of the trombone > comes up and away from the player's neck, and thus making the crossbars of > the slide (the bar that you are holding onto the slide with) almost > parallel to the plane of the floor below you, and the bell flare comes up > and closer to your head. The trombone is now NOT touching your neck, it is > not resting on your shoulder. Does that description make any sense? I hope so. > > The important part of what is happening here is not at the neck or the > crossbar of the slide, but up at the embouchure/mouthpiece connection > point. This now becomes the point of connection to the body between the > instrument and the player, and the horn is able to find the proper angle > for the particular partial you are playing on, your facial design, > etc. You are not allowing the horn to dictate where it will sit and > adjusting your body to the horn, and the mouthpiece is more likely to be > exactly where it would be when you are doing your buzzing exercises off the > horn. The benefit that can come out of this for some players is that the > mouthpiece is usually going to be in a more perfect spot on the chops for > the note you are playing, and I think specifically, you will keep more of > the upper lip in the ring of the mouthpiece which will keep your sound at > its fattest and thickest and most resonant, and will aid endurance. > > This trick may work better for some players than others, depending on your > present set up and how it matches your face and your chops and the demands > of your playing environment. It sounds rather silly, but try it yourself > and experiment and see if there is something there for you. > > Try this experiment: lock your hand slide, hold the trombone with both > hands, one on each slide tube, with the trombone away from the neck and the > slide crossbar parallel to the floor. With this grip put the horn up and > play some notes in the upper, middle and pedal ranges, do some lip slurs, > do some arpeggios, do some skips from one register to the other, do some > FFF notes, then some PPP notes, play the opening of Tuba Mirum minus the > low D. See if you feel that you have more control, more mastery over the > situation than when you hold your horn the same old way you always have. As > you play in different registers, experiment by changing the angle of the > horn slightly, front to back, to find the optimum angle for your face and > that particular note. Take note of how easy it is to change the angle of > the horn when it's away from your shoulder. Take note of the better > centering of certain notes, if that is happening. > > If you like the way this works with your playing, then the Alessi wrist > shift will help your playing. If you don't notice much, then it won't > affect it too much perhaps--but that's good, you are probably doing it > better than the rest of us already anyway! > > A note to bass trombonists: we all struggle with the weight of the horn, as > we get tired we list to the left side, either the whole upper body, or the > head, or the horn shifts down and to the left on our embouchure, weakening > our sound capabilities without our even knowing it. This wrist shift > attempts to address this. But the weight of the bass will make it hard on > the wrist at first. It is hard to maintain in long practice sessions, but > much easier to do in an orchestral rehearsal/performance situation because > we have all those rests everywhere. So maybe try it out in your rehearsals > as an experiment. Also, the inline Thayer bass that I am playing now makes > this wrist shift more difficult than my dependent thayer bell > section--there is more stuff sitting to the inside of the bell section and > when I roll the wrist over the 2nd valve pokes me right in the ear. Bummer, > but I keep trying to get comfy and find that rolling the wrist even if my > ear gets bumped is better for my playing than not rolling the wrist and > just letting the horn hang where it wants to. I am using a Greenhoe bar and > this helps as well. > > > BTW, Sabutin addresses the "horn slipping off the embouchure" phenomenon in > his book, the only place I have ever encountered it in print. Go Sabutin! I > had experimented with the wrist roll before I heard it from Joe, and it was > nice to have that concept validated by him, such that I now put more stock > in the idea myself. > > Well, there's your crazy tip for the day from Baltimore, B'more city, the > city where you can be more... > > ~Randy Campora > Sumo-sized Trombone (that's bass...) > Baltimore Symphony Orchestra ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 2 Nov 2002 to 3 Nov 2002 (#2002-113) ***************************************************************