Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 29 Sep 2002 to 30 Sep 2002 (#2002-79) There are 32 messages totalling 1576 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. mingus big band 2. Online Trombone Journal Classifieds - 9/30/2002 3. Hustlers + art (was: mingus big band) (2) 4. Pryor Patriot and New Book (2) 5. problem child (5) 6. Evolution (was RE: [TBN-L] Jazz repertory - Society's priorities) (3) 7. Nessun Dorma bone parts 8. Evolution (was RE: [TBN-L] Jazz repertory - Society's priorities) 9. Switch Equipment During Audition? (2) 10. Question 11. shipping box question (7) 12. Innes' "Comin' through the Rye" (2) 13. Orchestral Equipment Size 14. Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] shipping box question 15. Rosolino Memorial Scholarshio (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 04:41:54 EDT From: SteveInside@AOL.COM Subject: Re: mingus big band In a message dated 30/09/02 00:38:15 GMT Daylight Time, swan325@earthlink.net writes: > Simon Bailey wrote: > > > hi all, > > > > i've just read that the mingus big band is playing in a venue in > > innsbruck (where i live). does anybody know this band and if they're > > worth going to see? > > > > Simon, > > Yes, it should be a group of top New York players. > > Eric ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi Simon, I saw them at Ronnie Scott's in London a couple of months ago and was deeply disappointed. I remember writing something to the List after I saw them to the effect that I felt the band were jaded, bored and not at all glad to be there. However, I felt the venue had a deal to do with what I felt was a poor performance by individually good musicians. Among the replies to that post was a note from another Lister that had been involved in the band's beginnings. I took his thoughts on the sheer weight of touring, only barely adequate pay and being so far from home for so long in often poor accommodation to be good enough reason for things not to have been as they might. Perhaps your experience will be a better one. Best wishes, Steve C ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 06:29:48 -0500 From: Chris Waage Subject: Online Trombone Journal Classifieds - 9/30/2002 The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds (http://www.trombone.org/classifieds) have been updated as of 6:27 AM CDT on September 30, 2002. - - - - - Thank you for using the OTJ Classifieds! - - - - - OTJ Classifieds Frequently Asked Questions http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/faq.asp OTJ Gift Shoppe: http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=trombones If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone Journal Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org. Chris -- ________________________________________________ Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster chris@trombone.org http://www.trombone.org - A web site for trombonists ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:13:15 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Hustlers + art (was: mingus big band) >In a message dated 30/09/02 00:38:15 GMT Daylight Time, swan325@earthlink.net >writes: > >> Simon Bailey wrote: >> >> > hi all, >> > >> > i've just read that the mingus big band is playing in a venue in >> > innsbruck (where i live). does anybody know this band and if they're >> > worth going to see? >> > >> >> Simon, >> >> Yes, it should be a group of top New York players. >> >> Eric > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Hi Simon, >I saw them at Ronnie Scott's in London a couple of months ago and was deeply >disappointed. I remember writing something to the List after I saw them to >the effect that I felt the band were jaded, bored and not at all glad to be >there. However, I felt the venue had a deal to do with what I felt was a >poor performance by individually good musicians. > >Among the replies to that post was a note from another Lister that had been >involved in the band's beginnings. I took his thoughts on the sheer weight >of touring, only barely adequate pay and being so far from home for so long >in often poor accommodation to be good enough reason for things not to have >been as they might. > >Perhaps your experience will be a better one. > >Best wishes, >Steve C ========= I was that lister. (I was the first music director of that band.) The individuals in the band are by and large VERY good players, but they are caught in a system that does not really encourage them to burn the way they can, especially on the road. This is not just about money, travel + accommodations, although these things certainly enter into it...it's about the necessity for hustle, down and dirty hustle, and the power that the hustler(s) almost inevitably try to exert over the musicians. Call it the George Wein syndrome, for want of a better name. I will not get into specifics about that particular band. It's certainly worth a listen; sometimes it's very good...but sadly not that often anymore. Generally speaking the complexity (and often sheer dishonesty on any number of levels) of booking a band like this on the road is staggering. If the people who do the hustling would just do that and leave the making of music to the musicians things would be much different, but this almost never happens. There is some mechanism in place in the human being that encourages the hustlers to feel inferior somehow to the artists and impels them to try to become "equal" by interfering in the actual production of the art. This syndrome can easily be seen in the endless stories about crass Hollywood producers, the culture wars of critics, business people and artists, the grant establishment's endless interference in what can and cannot be "art" and their often blindly wrongheaded choices of who receives their largesse...the whole "arts" system, top to bottom,really. But somehow the system survives, and somehow great art grows out of it the way a flower grows from a pile of manure. From Mozart to Miles. The true "miracle" of art. S. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 06:25:58 -0700 From: David Guion Subject: Re: Pryor Patriot and New Book From: Chuck De Paolo Reply-To: Chuck De Paolo Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 10:02:34 -0400 Here's the >blurb, including the table of contents: > >Arthur Pryor (1870-1942) was one of the best-known trombonists and bandsmen >of his day. Trombone soloist for John Philip Sousa's celebrated band >beginning in 1892, he later functioned as assistant conductor of the Sousa >band (1894-1903) before starting his own ensemble. His more than 300 >compositions include novelty tunes, ragtime pieces and operettas, but of >course he is best remembered today for his virtuosic solos for his own >instrument. This new book collects eight of his most popular solos in one >volume and includes Blue Bells of Scotland, Fantastic Polka, The Little >Chief (Polka Caprice), Love's Enchantment (Valse de Concert), The Patriot, >La Petite Suzanne, Starlight and Thoughts of Love. This is a book every >trombonist will want to have in his or her library. > I don't know if I'm showing my age, or what, but I won't need to buy that book. I already have all of those solos as separates. Thoughts of Love and Love's Enchantment are the first two solos Pryor wrote. I think he was 18. The titles have always made me wonder who she was! I can't understand why Thoughts of Love has been so much more popular as the two seem about equal in musical value and crowd appeal. I have performed The Little Chief about three times. I obviously enjoy it. Starlight was my contest solo when I was in 8th or 9th grade (I forget which.) It is his easiest piece technically and therefore more difficult to make appear as a virtuoso display piece. I've only played it once since junior high school--probably a lot faster the second time! La Petite Suzanne was my 10th grade contest solo. I haven't played it since. It is a waltz caprice like the two love pieces, and to my taste not as successful. FWIW, I have never performed either Blue Bells or Fantastic Polka. My pedal notes aren't dependable enough. I also have The Patriot and The Supervisor and just haven't been able to get interested enough in either of them to learn them. Ron Barron once sent me a photocopy of Exposition Echoes, which he recorded. I played it once. So there are other out-of-print Pryor pieces that are not in this collection. It would be nice to have access so some of these and also to pieces by Pryor's great contemporary, Frederick Neal Inness, none of which are currently available to the best of my knowledge. Does anyone have any idea where copies of any of this music might be? -- *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* David Guion Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? david@trombone.org *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:29:48 -0400 From: "Avery, Ray (232)" Subject: Re: problem child " "Coming to lessons gives me a chance to work with someone who cares about me." Even if a student never opens up to you, the praise and one-on-one time with an adult sometimes makes all the difference in the world. Don't give up on him, but be very truthful with him and his parents." Chris Waage was right on the money. My wife is a math tutor both at home and in our local community college. She has had many loyal and hard working students over the years, some of whom came to our house for help all the way through Jr and Sr high school. She learned that as a teacher she is teaching about "life" first and foremost and math comes second. Even though history was her worst subject in school, if a student requests help with history, English, etc, she gladly does what she can for them. She shows them she cares for them. So ask yourself are you just a music teacher, or are you a Teacher. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 -----Original Message----- From: Chris Waage [mailto:chris@TROMBONE.ORG] Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 12:03 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] problem child Jay: The most difficult aspect of such a situation is to view it from an objective basis. I have two students for whom I currently have no hope of ever seeing serious improvement. They either do not practice or lack the basic skills for the instrument. Student #1 is in 10th grade, and currently plays at maybe 7th or 8th grade level. He tried to get help for two years from his high school band director (whom I will name - Brian Poston - he's since retired, and should have retired about 10 years earlier!). The director blew him off from 8th grade on (they started band in 7th grade). He continually asked for help and is a very sincere kid. He tries, but we're having to go back to the basics ("this is an F..."). He has quit band in school, and I asked him point-blank as to why he keeps coming to lessons and paying the monthly fees. His reply really hit home and gave me a new look into the art of teaching: "Coming to lessons gives me a chance to work with someone who cares about me." Even if a student never opens up to you, the praise and one-on-one time with an adult sometimes makes all the difference in the world. Don't give up on him, but be very truthful with him and his parents. Chris >With all this discussion on teaching, I bring another problem to the >list. I hope you all can help. > >I have a private trombone student who has been with me for a few years. >He is now in 9th grade. He is what I affectionately at home call my >"wrong student". He does everything wrong. Holds it wrong, buzzes >wrong, breathes wrong, doesn't quite think musically, you can see where >i am going with this. I have seen him grow from awkward 6th grader, to >a tall lanky more awkward 9th grader. He's a mumbler. He's a random >thought producer. I've even seen him concentrate on a thought so much, >that a bead of saliva dripped from his mouth. However, he is, by no >means developmentally slow. Good grades, tennis team, science fair, an >active participant in the high school experience. > >He has improved over the years, but with tons of frustration on my >part. I feel he lacks certain coordination, mental and physical to play >the instrument at an acceptable level. When I hear him buzz, breathe or >play, I know he is doing something wrong, but with him, if I suggest >something, its going to throw him the other way, and kill the thought >process. > >My question finally: What do I do with him? Its not a question of do I >keep him in my studio. Of course I do. I simply don't feel after four >years that he will be at the level he should be at in high school. I >also feel responsible to the band director for bringing "my student" >into his band playing like that. I have spoken to his mom, but not on >these issues in depth. Who wants to tell a parent who is "thrilled with >the job you are doing" that their son is behind the other kids, and is >uncoordinated for his instrument, and never really understands the >concepts I am talking about? > >I take a deep breath every time he walks in the practice room with a >" Hi Jay". Any thoughts? > >Thanks, > >Jay Heltzer -- ________________________________________________ Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster chris@trombone.org http://www.trombone.org - A web site for trombonists ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 06:35:18 -0700 From: David Guion Subject: Re: problem child Whatever is worth doing is worth doing well. Whatever is worth doing is worth doing badly. Contradiction? No. You can't do anything really well unless you have first done it badly. Then you learn to do it well. Problem students like Jay described probably won't become professional trombonists. They might become professional musicians. (One of my high school classmates was very musical, but still sounded like a constipated moose as a senior in high school. He probably hasn't touched his trombone since, but now he's a choral director at some university and probably a very good one.) They will most likely go into some other line of work, but might turn out to be proficient enough for church solos, community bands, dance bands, or other similar outlets for hobbyists. -- *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* David Guion Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? david@trombone.org *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:00:18 -0400 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." Subject: Re: Hustlers + art (was: mingus big band) Dear list members, I was looking around on the web a bit yesterday when I ran across the American Symphony Orchestra League website. Obviously, they publish a magazine periodically, and they have some of the articles from that magazine online. One that piqued my curiosity was one by Gary Graffman entitled, "What kind of world are we sending our conserbatory graduates into?" The URL is http://www.symphony.org/news/room/02sograffman.shtml if you want to read it online. The last part of the article is copied below, but you really need to read the entire article to put everything in its proper context. "The last word goes right back to Shakespeare: "To thine own self be true." The mission of an orchestra, I believe, is simply to present the best possible music, performed in the best possible way, for the people who want to listen. I believe that those of us who are involved with, or care about, the performance of great music must approach life with the conviction that as long as such music exists, there will always be people--albeit a minority--who will want to hear it. Our job, then, is to continue that tradition without compromise." I see this type of "hustling" right here where I live. More & more orchestras seem to be going to a marketing strategy that involves hiring a music director who has good public relations skills, & inevitably what happens is that they get someone who is more involved in getting people to come to concerts than they are studying scores and really becoming in tune with the composer's intentions. The musicians that strive to be true to their art are frustrated because the guy on the podium doesn't know what he wants to produce out of the orchestra before he ever gives the downbeat. As a result, there is an incredible amount of time wasted in rehearsals. And most of the time, the musicians can pull it together at performance time. However, it has everyone on needles and pins (to put it mildly) in the process. We should all keep art in the elevated state that our predecessors tried to do. Last week, I purchased half of the Art Tatum Solo Masterpieces, and the high level at which he performed is lengendary even today, and he's been dead almost 50 years. His level of mastery is, to my mind, unparallelled, and obviously, despite the fact that he was only really appreciated by a select few, his recordings are still selling today. I can't think of a single jazz pianist (perhaps with the exception of Oscar Peterson) who has even come close, and while I deeply admire Oscar, if given a choice, I'll listen to a Tatum recording any day. He didn't sell out, and we shouldn't either. If we play music with the highest level of artistry that we can, there will be a select few that will listen to it and support it. I believe that is true with all things that are truly great. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:32:22 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Re: Pryor Patriot and New Book On Mon, 30 Sep 2002, David Guion wrote: > that book. I already have all of those solos as separates. Thoughts of > Love and Love's Enchantment are the first two solos Pryor wrote. I think I taped an oral history interview with Robert C. Jones a few weeks ago. He told me that he actually played "Thoughts of Love" as a solo and ensemble piece (I think that was at the national level) and Pryor was the adjudicator. > collection. It would be nice to have access so some of these and also to > pieces by Pryor's great contemporary, Frederick Neal Inness, none of > which are currently available to the best of my knowledge. Does anyone > have any idea where copies of any of this music might be? There are three solos by Innes on the Library of Congress website, _"Innesque" Polka_ (cornet in A), _Les Folies Bergere_ (cornet in Bb), and _La Coquette_ (trombone). Piano versions. George Foreman presented a paper on Innes at this past year's Great American Brass Band Festival history conference. Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 08:43:48 -0600 From: Dennis Clason Subject: Evolution (was RE: [TBN-L] Jazz repertory - Society's priorities) > I really don't know about the relative advisability of such > things. I'm a staunch Darwinist...social, cultural, political, > economic...myself. > > The system that works the best on all levels...horn design, > marketing, etc. in the trombone world, cultural content, appeal to > human beings, marketing in this instance...will always win in direct > competition w/others. Actually, this isn't necessarily the case. There are random factors in operation that can (and do) establish sub-optimal systems as the standard. You're probably sitting in front of the canonical example as you read this. Look at your keyboard: does the third row read QWERTY? It's been known for at least 50 years that the QWERTY arrangement is not the best way to arrange keys. It relegates some often used letters (S, D, A) to the weaker (for most of us) left hand. It places others (R,T, N, E) off the home row. How then, did QWERTY win? It won, because the first touch-typist learned the QWERTY keyboard, instead of one of the other alternatives. And other alternatives were around. There were demonstrations of the superiority of touch typing, but they were mis-interpreted as demonstrating the superiority of the QWERTY design AND touch typing. Business schools taught touch typing on the QWERTY layout, so typists continued to demand QWERTY keyboards. The alternatives died out. Just try to find a non-QWERTY layout today. "We can order a Dvorak board for you, sir..." "Winning" in an evolutionary sense, requires that something be good enough, and get a lucky break or two along the way. We cannot interpret successful as meaning optimal. We could gin up another example, specifically from trombone-land. How's your thumb valve tuned? To F, right? Why's it tuned to F? Because that's the way thumb valves have always been tuned, since the 1850s or so. Is that the "best" tuning? I dunno, but for a Bb/? tenor instrument, I suspect no. If you think about slide structure, the median point is 4th position. In fact, I like to think of 4th position as "home", but that's me. It makes a little more sense (and you'll get better use from the valve) to tune the valve to G. But nobody does that, and even if I were to do it, I'd put the actuator for the valve on my finger rather than the thumb ... because my thumb is trained to believe that it drops the pitch a perfect 4th. Why F? Well, probably because the tenor/bass instrument was developed in Central Europe, where the bass was a Quartposaune, a fourth below the ordinary trombone (Gemeine rechte posaune, per Praetorius). The goal was to have a tenor and bass in a single instrument. You need a quartposaune, you've got to drop the pitch a perfect fourth. That gave Bb/F all the head start it needed. All the pedagogic materials available (STILL!) are for Bb/F instruments. It works well enough, so it succeeded, even though something else might be "more ergonomically functional." Evolution will get you something good enough. We cannot guarantee that evolution will give you the best -- because the results of evolution depend on where you start, and chance events along the way. Had the developer of the tenor/bass decided to use as his model the Quint- posaune, we might have Bb/Eb as the standard today. But the Quintposaune was a military band instrument ... Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 08:28:17 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: Nessun Dorma bone parts Dan, You are correct, bass trombone, not tuba. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: Dansatt@aol.com [mailto:Dansatt@aol.com] Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 2:27 PM To: Steve Gamble; TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Nessun Dorma bone parts In a message dated 9/27/2002 4:20:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sgamble@TUCSONSYMPHONY.ORG writes: Jeff is correct. The concert version of this piece ends thus: tuba on a D below the staff; trombones 3,2,1 on a root position D major triad in the staff (bass clef). Except Puccini did not write for tuba in Turandot...it should be four trombones! -Dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:34:41 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Evolution (was RE: [TBN-L] Jazz repertory - Society's priorities) Another example is video tape format. Beta was a technically superior format to VHS, but Sony's proprietary practices forced VHS to be the winner, because it was "good enough." I guess the same could be said of the Mac/PC thing. I do how ever think that Sam's statement of whatever works best "on all levels" accounts for these sorts of things. Macintoshes work best on some levels, but the advantages PCs have in the price and availability areas make them average out to be the winners, or at least dominant species. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE- > L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Dennis Clason > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 9:44 AM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] Evolution (was RE: [TBN-L] Jazz repertory - Society's > priorities) > > > I really don't know about the relative advisability of such > > things. I'm a staunch Darwinist...social, cultural, political, > > economic...myself. > > > > The system that works the best on all levels...horn design, > > marketing, etc. in the trombone world, cultural content, appeal to > > human beings, marketing in this instance...will always win in direct > > competition w/others. > > Actually, this isn't necessarily the case. There are random factors > in operation that can (and do) establish sub-optimal systems as the > standard. You're probably sitting in front of the canonical example > as you read this. Look at your keyboard: does the third row read > QWERTY? > > It's been known for at least 50 years that the QWERTY arrangement > is not the best way to arrange keys. It relegates some often used > letters (S, D, A) to the weaker (for most of us) left hand. It > places others (R,T, N, E) off the home row. How then, did QWERTY > win? > > It won, because the first touch-typist learned the QWERTY keyboard, > instead of one of the other alternatives. And other alternatives > were around. There were demonstrations of the superiority of > touch typing, but they were mis-interpreted as demonstrating the > superiority of the QWERTY design AND touch typing. Business > schools taught touch typing on the QWERTY layout, so typists > continued to demand QWERTY keyboards. The alternatives died > out. Just try to find a non-QWERTY layout today. "We can order > a Dvorak board for you, sir..." > > "Winning" in an evolutionary sense, requires that something be > good enough, and get a lucky break or two along the way. We > cannot interpret successful as meaning optimal. > > We could gin up another example, specifically from trombone-land. > How's your thumb valve tuned? To F, right? Why's it tuned to F? > Because that's the way thumb valves have always been tuned, since > the 1850s or so. > > Is that the "best" tuning? I dunno, but for a Bb/? tenor instrument, > I suspect no. If you think about slide structure, the median point > is 4th position. In fact, I like to think of 4th position as "home", > but that's me. It makes a little more sense (and you'll get better > use from the valve) to tune the valve to G. But nobody does that, > and even if I were to do it, I'd put the actuator for the valve on my > finger rather than the thumb ... because my thumb is trained to believe > that it drops the pitch a perfect 4th. > > Why F? Well, probably because the tenor/bass instrument was developed > in Central Europe, where the bass was a Quartposaune, a fourth below > the ordinary trombone (Gemeine rechte posaune, per Praetorius). The > goal was to have a tenor and bass in a single instrument. You need > a quartposaune, you've got to drop the pitch a perfect fourth. That > gave Bb/F all the head start it needed. All the pedagogic materials > available (STILL!) are for Bb/F instruments. It works well enough, > so it succeeded, even though something else might be "more ergonomically > functional." > > Evolution will get you something good enough. We cannot guarantee that > evolution will give you the best -- because the results of evolution > depend on where you start, and chance events along the way. Had > the developer of the tenor/bass decided to use as his model the Quint- > posaune, we might have Bb/Eb as the standard today. But the Quintposaune > was a military band instrument ... > > Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 15:39:47 +0000 From: robert.osterlund@ATTBI.COM Subject: Re: problem child Ray: > them she cares for them. So ask yourself are you just a music teacher, or > are you a Teacher. I don't think that Jay should feel any guilt if he decides he is "just a music teacher." I have a special needs child who takes guitar lessons. If his teacher were to quit on him out of frustration, I would respect that decision. If they've no heart or mind or patience to do so, I don't expect anyone to extend special help or consideration to my child (beyond the common courtesies and normal human decency). In any case, Jay makes clear that he has no intention to give up on this student: > >My question finally: What do I do with him? Its not a question of do I > >keep him in my studio. Of course I do. I simply don't feel after four Because of that line, I read his original post as a call for helpful teaching insights and techniques, no more, no less. Of all the things I've read so far in this thread, the comment I thought most interesting was the suggestion that the student switch instruments. Before taking up the trombone/sackbut, I considered playing the viola da gamba. I actually tried playing the instrument for a week before returning it to the prospective seller. I am predominantly left-handed/left- armed, you see, and there was little prospect I could coordinate my hands/arms/brain to play that inherently right-handed instrument. (With violin, it's worse. There's simply no way I could conceive of my playing that instrument the right, and right-handed way.) Yet I play the trombone right-handed without problem. Go figure. (One of the coolest things about the trombone is that it is inherently an ambidextrous instrument. And there seems to be no strong prejudice against left-handed players.) Maybe with the trombone it's because there's little for the fingers to do, and the arm action is front-to-back, not side-to-side. When playing a stringed instrument, maybe the added mental burden of coordinating all that specialized left-handed finger movement with side-to-side right arm bowing addles my lefty brain. (My problem is mainly with the bowing, I sense. It just in no way feels natural or comfortable to bow right-armed.) I'm not suggesting that Jay's student has a handedness problem. Maybe he's not "wired" to be a wind player, just as I'm not "wired" to be a right-handed string player. Maybe it's something else we can't fathom. It's all a mystery. For whatever reason, perhaps Jay's student should just switch instruments. Bob -- robert.osterlund@attbi.com http://earlymusichicago.home.attbi.com/ http://earlymusichicago.org/earlymusichicago/ > " "Coming to lessons gives me a chance > to work with someone who cares about me." > > Even if a student never opens up to you, the praise and one-on-one > time with an adult sometimes makes all the difference in the world. > Don't give up on him, but be very truthful with him and his parents." > > Chris Waage was right on the money. My wife is a math tutor both at home > and in our local community college. She has had many loyal and hard working > students over the years, some of whom came to our house for help all the way > through Jr and Sr high school. She learned that as a teacher she is > teaching about "life" first and foremost and math comes second. Even though > history was her worst subject in school, if a student requests help with > history, English, etc, she gladly does what she can for them. She shows > them she cares for them. So ask yourself are you just a music teacher, or > are you a Teacher. > > Ray Avery > Director, Human Resources > Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. > 607-687-7669 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Waage [mailto:chris@TROMBONE.ORG] > Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 12:03 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] problem child > > > Jay: > > The most difficult aspect of such a situation is to view it from an > objective basis. I have two students for whom I currently have no > hope of ever seeing serious improvement. They either do not practice > or lack the basic skills for the instrument. Student #1 is in 10th > grade, and currently plays at maybe 7th or 8th grade level. He tried > to get help for two years from his high school band director (whom I > will name - Brian Poston - he's since retired, and should have > retired about 10 years earlier!). The director blew him off from 8th > grade on (they started band in 7th grade). He continually asked for > help and is a very sincere kid. He tries, but we're having to go > back to the basics ("this is an F..."). He has quit band in school, > and I asked him point-blank as to why he keeps coming to lessons and > paying the monthly fees. His reply really hit home and gave me a new > look into the art of teaching: "Coming to lessons gives me a chance > to work with someone who cares about me." > > Even if a student never opens up to you, the praise and one-on-one > time with an adult sometimes makes all the difference in the world. > Don't give up on him, but be very truthful with him and his parents. > > Chris > > > >With all this discussion on teaching, I bring another problem to the > >list. I hope you all can help. > > > >I have a private trombone student who has been with me for a few years. > >He is now in 9th grade. He is what I affectionately at home call my > >"wrong student". He does everything wrong. Holds it wrong, buzzes > >wrong, breathes wrong, doesn't quite think musically, you can see where > >i am going with this. I have seen him grow from awkward 6th grader, to > >a tall lanky more awkward 9th grader. He's a mumbler. He's a random > >thought producer. I've even seen him concentrate on a thought so much, > >that a bead of saliva dripped from his mouth. However, he is, by no > >means developmentally slow. Good grades, tennis team, science fair, an > >active participant in the high school experience. > > > >He has improved over the years, but with tons of frustration on my > >part. I feel he lacks certain coordination, mental and physical to play > >the instrument at an acceptable level. When I hear him buzz, breathe or > >play, I know he is doing something wrong, but with him, if I suggest > >something, its going to throw him the other way, and kill the thought > >process. > > > >My question finally: What do I do with him? Its not a question of do I > >keep him in my studio. Of course I do. I simply don't feel after four > >years that he will be at the level he should be at in high school. I > >also feel responsible to the band director for bringing "my student" > >into his band playing like that. I have spoken to his mom, but not on > >these issues in depth. Who wants to tell a parent who is "thrilled with > >the job you are doing" that their son is behind the other kids, and is > >uncoordinated for his instrument, and never really understands the > >concepts I am talking about? > > > >I take a deep breath every time he walks in the practice room with a > >" Hi Jay". Any thoughts? > > > >Thanks, > > > >Jay Heltzer > > > -- > ________________________________________________ > Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster chris@trombone.org > http://www.trombone.org - A web site for trombonists ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 12:21:49 -0500 From: Jeff Oien Subject: Switch Equipment During Audition? I've been reading about how many orchestral players will use smaller equipment for things like Bolero. Do people ever switch equipment during an audition? Would this be frowned upon for any reason? Jeff Oien ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 10:39:01 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: Switch Equipment During Audition? Having served as orchestra personnel manager for a number of years, I think I've seen about everything. Most people play the licks on whatever equipment makes them the most comfortable. The exception to this would be when the committee specifically asks for passages to be played with specific equipment. I've seen lots of rep lists over the years and I can only remember one that required the trombonist to play everything on one horn. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Jeff Oien Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 10:22 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Switch Equipment During Audition? I've been reading about how many orchestral players will use smaller equipment for things like Bolero. Do people ever switch equipment during an audition? Would this be frowned upon for any reason? Jeff Oien ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 18:45:50 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: problem child >Problem students like Jay described probably won't become professional >trombonists. They might become professional musicians. Or Jay might become someone who truly appreciates professional musicians, seeing that being one takes way more dedication than he could ever muster. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:47:21 -0500 From: Brennan Arceneaux Subject: Re: Question I'm 7 weeks into my first year as a High School Band Director in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.... Brennan Arceneaux ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Hickle" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Question > On Tuesday, September 24, 2002, at 01:01 PM, Shaun Hillen wrote: > > > Hi, > > I was curious about the makeup of the list. How many of you are band or > > orchestra directors in a school setting? > > I teach high school band. > > --Shaun > > I'm not a music teacher. I'm actually a music therapist. I work with > kids with special needs. Right now, I have them ranging from 18 months > to 15 years old. I don't work within the school system, I do in-home > visits. However, during my internship, I worked in a school system. > > Jesse Hickle, MT-BC > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 19:10:13 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Evolution (was RE: [TBN-L] Jazz repertory - Society's priorities) >QWERTY? > >It's been known for at least 50 years that the QWERTY arrangement >is not the best way to arrange keys. It relegates some often used >letters (S, D, A) to the weaker (for most of us) left hand. It >places others (R,T, N, E) off the home row. How then, did QWERTY >win? QWERTY won for a very real reason. Until the Selectric typewriter, typewriters used characters that swung out on long arms. Those arms would interfere with each other, if two arms touched. The way QWERTY solved that problem was that it arranged the letters so that the most used letters, the arms most likely to be actuated, would be furthest from eachother. That way they were least likely to interfere with each other. As a guitarist and doublereed player, it certainly doesn’t bother me a bit that I’ve built up more strength in my weakest fingers. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 15:55:04 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: shipping box question Hi all... Here's one for you used horn types: I have to ship a horn in a big old hard case, and need a box at least 36"x12"x14" to handle the case and the packing popcorn. I can't find a box big enough. I've tried Maliboxes Etc. and my moving company so far. I can tape two boxes together, but something tells me that's not a great idea. I can also send the horn sans case wrapped in bubble wrap and just ship the case itself wrapped in heavy paper or something, but I'd rather not. Any suggestions on how to get a box that size that's not a commercial wardrobe box? Thanks... Sam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 15:09:40 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: shipping box question I went to Mailboxes Etc once, and they wanted to use two boxes in a conjoined manner, and charge a fortune for it. I found a cool little independent shipping place now that packs my stuff , and they seem to have boxes that size. I usually just drop it off and let them pack it, and haven't had any complaints. They sent that 2B in the big King box case for me, and they had a box that it fit in. I think it might have been a lamp box. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE- > L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of sabutin > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 2:55 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] shipping box question > > Hi all... > > Here's one for you used horn types: > > I have to ship a horn in a big old hard case, and need a box at > least 36"x12"x14" to handle the case and the packing popcorn. > > I can't find a box big enough. I've tried Maliboxes Etc. and my > moving company so far. > > I can tape two boxes together, but something tells me that's not a > great idea. I can also send the horn sans case wrapped in bubble wrap > and just ship the case itself wrapped in heavy paper or something, > but I'd rather not. > > Any suggestions on how to get a box that size that's not a > commercial wardrobe box? > > Thanks... > > Sam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:13:50 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: shipping box question Sam, I've shipped horns using a carton made from two (and even three) smaller cartons a few times with no problems. What seems to work the best is to find cartons that open on the ends so they can be assemble end to end. That way you don't have to undermine the integrity of the boxes by cutting them. You just slide/force the end of one box into the end of the other, tape it up real good, and use the outer flaps just like you normally would to close the thing up. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of sabutin Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 12:55 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] shipping box question Hi all... Here's one for you used horn types: I have to ship a horn in a big old hard case, and need a box at least 36"x12"x14" to handle the case and the packing popcorn. I can't find a box big enough. I've tried Maliboxes Etc. and my moving company so far. I can tape two boxes together, but something tells me that's not a great idea. I can also send the horn sans case wrapped in bubble wrap and just ship the case itself wrapped in heavy paper or something, but I'd rather not. Any suggestions on how to get a box that size that's not a commercial wardrobe box? Thanks... Sam ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:11:46 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: shipping box question i have gotten horns ---no box just taped over latches horns w bubba wrap around case and mega size boxes lamp boxes from u haul - chain saw boxes and 2 or 3 boxes taped together -------------- taping two pretty close size works --ups charges 30 pounds for oversize even if box weighs 22 --- really really big -is more -- ---------------------- i have sent horns and cases separate---like to germany horns in bubba and peanuts --cases in large boxes to apo addresses ------------ tape several boxes together---it works --------get a good mat knife or sharp butcher knife c--and use thick clear tape - if you are gonna be charged for 30 pounds -whats a couple of pounds ??? ----actually some of the boxes i get are hilarious --- and igot a horn put together in long box one time////////// buescher staggerwing 400 the ny bach 15 c was loose flying around in the box sabutin wrote: > Hi all... > > Here's one for you used horn types: > > I have to ship a horn in a big old hard case, and need a box at > least 36"x12"x14" to handle the case and the packing popcorn. > > I can't find a box big enough. I've tried Maliboxes Etc. and my > moving company so far. > > I can tape two boxes together, but something tells me that's not a > great idea. I can also send the horn sans case wrapped in bubble wrap > and just ship the case itself wrapped in heavy paper or something, > but I'd rather not. > > Any suggestions on how to get a box that size that's not a > commercial wardrobe box? > > Thanks... > > Sam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:26:46 -0400 From: Chuck De Paolo Subject: Re: shipping box question Sam, Try U-Haul. --Chuck ----- Original Message -----=20 From: sabutin=20 To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU=20 Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 3:55 PM Subject: [TBN-L] shipping box question Hi all... Here's one for you used horn types: I have to ship a horn in a big old hard case, and need a box at least 36"x12"x14" to handle the case and the packing popcorn. I can't find a box big enough. I've tried Maliboxes Etc. and my moving company so far. I can tape two boxes together, but something tells me that's not a great idea. I can also send the horn sans case wrapped in bubble wrap and just ship the case itself wrapped in heavy paper or something, but I'd rather not. Any suggestions on how to get a box that size that's not a commercial wardrobe box? Thanks... Sam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 15:51:20 -0500 From: Michael Shoshani Subject: Re: shipping box question We've secretly replaced sabutin 's message with Folger's Crystals. Let's see if anyone notices: > Hi all... > > Here's one for you used horn types: > > I have to ship a horn in a big old hard case, and need a box at >least 36"x12"x14" to handle the case and the packing popcorn. > > I can't find a box big enough. I've tried Maliboxes Etc. and my >moving company so far. > > I can tape two boxes together, but something tells me that's not a >great idea. I can also send the horn sans case wrapped in bubble wrap >and just ship the case itself wrapped in heavy paper or something, >but I'd rather not. > I've had a horn shipped to me in two boxes taped together with no problems. LA to Chicago. I have been shipped (and I subsequently reused the box on another horn) a horn in a King coffin case, which fit EXACTLY inside a Yamaha trombone box. All the packing peanuts were inside the King case; there was no room for them outside. This horn came to me from Florida with no problems, and I shipped another horn in the same box (same size case) to Japan with no damage to the horn. If you have a Yamaha retailer with a surplus trombone box, you might do that. All of this was via UPS. Michael Shoshani Chicago IL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:29:52 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: problem child --- Robert Holland wrote: > If this sounds ridiculous, try it for yourself and see, > discard it if you > wish. Set a predetermined amount of time, only 30-45 > seconds, say, close > your eyes, and think only about breathing in and out. > Focus on that one > activity and nothing else. It may seem like a very long > interval, but that's > what practice is for. By clearing the mind, the body > relaxes and is prepared > for whatever then next activity is. I just remembered one of the ways I used to practice in college - particularly when the only practice rooms available were the horrible tiny ones - I would blindfold myself and play scales. I would get more done in 15 minutes than I would usually accomplish in an hour other times. The blindfold was important, much more effective and focusing than simply closing my eyes. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:31:53 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: shipping box question One word of caution: A trombone in a box comes very, very close to dimensions that would have is considered oversized, by some shippers. Check your specific shipper, to determine just how large the box can be. One time I took my pocket knife and cut an inch off of the length of a box, to reduce the shipping cost from almost $100.00, down to about $30.00. The woman behind the counter even let me use her packing tape. DanP PS. And give yourself some peach of mind, by putting a Styrofoam cone, from the crafts store, in the bell, as Doug suggested. PPS. Doug, I’ve got a Styrofoam cone with a sock over it that I always use, whenever my trombone is in its case…now that’s peace of mind. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:36:04 +0200 From: Simon Bailey Subject: Re: Evolution (was RE: [TBN-L] Jazz repertory - Society's priorities) On Mon, 2002-09-30 at 16:43, Dennis Clason wrote: <... SNIP ALOT ON F-VALVES...> > Evolution will get you something good enough. We cannot guarantee that > evolution will give you the best -- because the results of evolution > depend on where you start, and chance events along the way. Had > the developer of the tenor/bass decided to use as his model the Quint- > posaune, we might have Bb/Eb as the standard today. But the Quintposaune > was a military band instrument ... actually playing a very "german" influenced area, i must say, that i have played with at least 4 trombonists in the last year who have tuned their f-valve to an e-valve (not quite a perfect fifth, but it works for them)... however i was not able to watch how they used their valve, as they were playing different lines to me. i do know though, that i can tune my bach 42 with f-valve as shipped to an e-valve as the tuning slide on the f valve is over 6 inches long (it does work, but it confused me the only times i tried it). it does mean that you can hit pedal Bb in 7th though... *g* i myself would prefer a g valve -- would make a lot of [my] playing easier, but that would mean cutting and chopping. maybe in a few years time... :o) however, i'm slowly getting around this problem by following sam's advice in his article on "alternate" positions at trombone.org. that article has really helped my style over the past couple of weeks. my two pieces of copper to rub together... *g* greetings, simon. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 18:08:50 EDT From: Steve88h@AOL.COM Subject: Innes' "Comin' through the Rye" There is a complete manuscript orchestration of Innes' "Comin' Through the Rye" for sale on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=909156110 In a message dated 9/30/02 9:32:01 AM, cnowicke@indiana.edu writes: << There are three solos by Innes on the Library of Congress website, _"Innesque" Polka_ (cornet in A), _Les Folies Bergere_ (cornet in Bb), and _La Coquette_ (trombone). Piano versions. George Foreman presented a paper on Innes at this past year's Great American Brass Band Festival history conference. >> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:45:04 -0500 From: Wayne Dyess Subject: Re: Orchestral Equipment Size Funny. I had always given credit for the .547 "craze" to Emory Remington. Maybe I just wished it... :-) Wayne Dyess On Friday, September 27, 2002, at 04:55 PM, Jim Lee wrote: > Paul Kemp writes: > >> Since the 1940's the .547 instrument has been, more or less, the >> STANDARD orchestral tenor trombone. Gordon Pulis started playing an >> 88H in >> the New York Philharmonic, and the craze spread like wildfire. > > While the .547 might be the standard, Gordon had very little to due > with the > craze. He played almost his entire career on a 78H. > > --------------- > jimlee@cttsweb.com > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:48:54 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] shipping box question What a resource this list is ! Thanks all... Sam ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:22:17 -0400 From: James Gicking Subject: Re: Innes' "Comin' through the Rye" on 9/30/02 6:08 PM, Steve88h@AOL.COM at Steve88h@AOL.COM wrote: It appears our own D. Guion (apologize if I've butchered the spelling) is the lone bidder on this item. I don't know why I'm tempted to bid, except for the tease of your post. I'll back off instead and in exchange ask our resident librarian (Mr. Guion), or you, to tell us the significance of Innes, and of this piece. > There is a complete manuscript orchestration of Innes' "Comin' Through the > Rye" for sale on eBay. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=909156110 > > In a message dated 9/30/02 9:32:01 AM, cnowicke@indiana.edu writes: > > << There are three solos by Innes on the Library of Congress website, > _"Innesque" Polka_ (cornet in A), _Les Folies Bergere_ (cornet in Bb), and > _La Coquette_ (trombone). Piano versions. > > George Foreman presented a paper on Innes at this past year's Great > American Brass Band Festival history conference. >>> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 00:29:57 -0400 From: Eugene Grissom Subject: Rosolino Memorial Scholarshio TB & related issues forum (The following is in response to the many letters, emails, and phone calls regarding the current status of the Frank Rosolino Memorial Scholarship). NEWS RELEASE - FRANK ROSOLINO MEMORIAL SCHOLARSHIP AT THE INTERNATIONAL TROMBONE FESTIVAL HELD AT NASHVILLE IN 2001, THE INTERNATIONAL TROMBONE ASSOCIATION VOTED TO ELIMINATE THE FRANK ROSOLINO MEMORIAL SCHOLARSHIP AND THE SCHOLARSHIP, PRIZES AND AWARDS COMMITTEE. PROFESSOR EMERITUS EUGENE E. GRISSOM, UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA, WHO HAD SERVED AS A JOINT SPONSOR OF THE FRANK ROSOLINO MEMORIAL SCHOLARSHIP SINCE ITS INCEPTION IN 1979, HAS WITHDRAWN HIS SUPPORT OF THE ITAS NEW REPLACEMENT, THE FRANK ROSOLINO COMPETITION. IN ADDITION, THE EXECUTIVE BOARD OF THE FRANK ROSOLINO MEMORIAL FUND, FOUNDED IN 1994 BY CONRAD HERWIG, NEW YORK TROMBONIST AND PROFESSOR GRISSOM TO SUPPORT ROSOLINO SCHOLARSHIP PROJECTS, HAS WITHDRAWN ITS PRIZE MONEY AND OTHER SUPPORT FOR THE INTERNATIONAL TROMBONE ASSOCIATIONS STUDENT TROMBONE COMPETITION. Eugene E. Grissom / Executive Director/ Frank Rosolino Memorial Scholarship ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 23:47:57 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Rosolino Memorial Scholarshio What was the difference between the scholarship and the competition? I understand there are probably several levels of issues, so the short easy answer is cool with me, if there is a short easy answer. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE- > L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Eugene Grissom > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 11:30 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] Rosolino Memorial Scholarshio > > TB & related issues forum > > (The following is in response to the many letters, emails, and phone > calls regarding the current status of the Frank Rosolino Memorial > Scholarship). > > > > > NEWS RELEASE - FRANK ROSOLINO MEMORIAL SCHOLARSHIP > > > AT THE INTERNATIONAL TROMBONE FESTIVAL HELD AT NASHVILLE IN 2001, THE > INTERNATIONAL TROMBONE ASSOCIATION VOTED TO ELIMINATE THE FRANK ROSOLINO > MEMORIAL SCHOLARSHIP AND THE SCHOLARSHIP, PRIZES AND AWARDS COMMITTEE. > PROFESSOR EMERITUS EUGENE E. GRISSOM, UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA, WHO HAD > SERVED AS A JOINT SPONSOR OF THE FRANK ROSOLINO MEMORIAL SCHOLARSHIP > SINCE > ITS INCEPTION IN 1979, HAS WITHDRAWN HIS SUPPORT OF THE ITAS NEW > REPLACEMENT, THE FRANK ROSOLINO COMPETITION. IN ADDITION, THE EXECUTIVE > BOARD OF THE FRANK ROSOLINO MEMORIAL FUND, FOUNDED IN 1994 BY CONRAD > HERWIG, NEW YORK TROMBONIST AND PROFESSOR GRISSOM TO SUPPORT ROSOLINO > SCHOLARSHIP PROJECTS, HAS WITHDRAWN ITS PRIZE MONEY AND OTHER SUPPORT FOR > THE INTERNATIONAL TROMBONE ASSOCIATIONS STUDENT TROMBONE COMPETITION. > > Eugene E. Grissom / Executive Director/ Frank Rosolino Memorial > Scholarship ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 29 Sep 2002 to 30 Sep 2002 (#2002-79) ****************************************************************