Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 25 Sep 2002 to 26 Sep 2002 (#2002-75) There are 43 messages totalling 2602 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. (6) 2. Marches 3. Teaching--What we're really dealing with (14) 4. Repertory jazz (4) 5. "Sherwood Master" Trombone (2) 6. trombone BBQ in Darwin 7. Jazz repertory - Society's priorities 8. How to repair bones? (4) 9. Nessun Dorma bone parts (2) 10. Lost list again 11. Orchestral Equipment Size (6) 12. Morceau Symphonique - Orchestra Arrangement ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 23:51:32 -0500 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: BassBonist@AOL.COM wrote: > s973819@osprey.ntu.edu.au writes: > > > There will be a trombone BBQ here in darwin (N.T) this sunday > > Which brand of BBQ sauce works best on trombones? > How long do you have to cook them before they get tender enough to eat? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 02:01:25 -0400 From: Dave Wank Subject: Marches There are two marches which I have recently played and I am trying to come up with copies. First is Trombones Triumphant, by Keller and the second is: Le Dernier Salut, by Fucik If anyone has any idea where copies of these pieces may be lurking, other than where I played them, I would appreciate the info and very much appreciate being able to acquire them. Thanks for any help you may give. Reply either to the list or privately. Dave Wank ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 04:58:26 EDT From: SteveInside@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Teaching--What we're really dealing with In a message dated 25/09/02 18:49:10 GMT Daylight Time,=20 daniel_pliskin@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > So one question that arises from this is, do you want to teach only the mo= st > dedicated students or do you want to have enough students to make a > =E2=80=9Ccomfortable=E2=80=9D living? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- True and fair Dan and I'd add that there's loads to be gained for the world=20 in general if many kids are exposed to any musical instrument and go through= =20 some of what it takes to get good at it. Even if they don't practice and=20 drop it after eighteen months. Same would be true of acting, painting,=20 drawing =E2=80=94 almost any of the arts. Steve C ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 05:06:23 -0500 From: richard johnson Subject: Re: Teaching--What we're really dealing with ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Yeo" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 8:15 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Teaching--What we're really dealing with > Richard, you brought up some good points, but let me carry the > discussion a little further. > > Sure, there are many people where both parents work out of economic > necessity. But there are also many households where both parents > work out of PERCEIVED economic necessity. A lot of parents have kids > not so they'll have kids, but so they'll have someone to be their pal > when they get older. Both parents work because they think they'll be > happier with the things the extra money can buy. Truth be told, with > a roof over one's head and food on the table, most kids would be > happier having a parent home more often than knowing they were being > driven to day care in a Lexus. I say this from my own experience, > knowing many parents not only in my town, but looking at colleagues, > peers and others I know well. I guess that we have had different experiences, Doug. In my community, as a child and as an adult, parents work because they have to and not because they want to. I'm sure that they would love to stay home with their children if possible. However, they find that two paychecks are needed if they are to survive. I'm sure that there are those households where both parents work because of perceived economic necessity, however, that does not seem to be the norm where I'm from. > As to "how do you feel" about events vs. actually knowing anything > about them, I'll just have to disagree with you on this. Perhaps, I was unclear in my previous writings. I don't discount a knowledge of history. As a matter of fact, if one is to understand the future, there must be an understanding of the past. However, rote memorization of history is merely a beginning of education. After one learns the history, then one must be able to apply it to present life and to the future. Therefore, after one learns the name of Lincoln's vice-president, how does it relate to present life? For example, can one make the leap from knowing his name to comparing his term to the Clinton presidency. If a student studies slavery, then his taking the learning process one step further and wandering how a slave feels may lead him to fight modern day slavery in Africa or Miami, for that matter. > I live in a town which is known for its "good schools." But they > teach that 2+2=5 to elementary school kids if you feel good about > the answer. Lots of schools do. Is this just a slight exageration, Doug? I've never heard of a school teaching that 2+2=5. Louisiana is not known for having stellar schools, however, I can think of no classes where there are no objective standards for completing the course successfully. History exams test knowledge of history. Gym classes require participation. Band classes require at home practice in order to receive a passing grade. The essays written by kids in my our school system, as I've gleaned from seeing my children's work, requires the kids to use several different sources. They use library sources and internet sources. The use of one source for an essay is going to result in a failing grade. But, of course, I'm not familiar with the grading standards in other school systems. > Competition is out in schools today, Richard. Great that your kids > know what it is. Kudos to your school system for allowing it to > thrive. Competition (healthy, not cruel) is what makes us better. But > don't assume your kid's experience is universal. Again, Doug, we speak from our own perspectives. I don't see that competition is out in school. That may be so in Boston schools. It is not in Mansfield, La. schools. For example, I had a daughter who tried for middle school cheer-leader three times in a row. She failed the first two times and finally made it the third time. She learned to compete. She learned how to deal with failure and used that lesson to later succeed. She tried out for the high school cheer-leading squad this year as a 9th grader and had no trouble making the squad. Kids today compete for district, regional, and all-state bands. Kids are placed in these bands based on objective standards. After all, everyone can't be first chair. The same process exists, at least in Louisiana for science fairs, social studies fairs and 4-H fairs. Someone has to be first. I imagine that these competitions exist in Boston also. > You asked: > >Are our music schools and conservatories turning out less > >capable trombonists than in years past? I was under the impression that the > >USA was full of outstanding young trombonists. > > Nope. Some good players. Few outstanding players. What we mostly > have is a lot of players who THINK they are outstanding players. I > look at Boston in the 17 years that I've been here. A huge change > (downward) in the quality of freelancers in town available to play > gigs. And a tremendous downturn in the quality of students applying > to colleges. A huge difference. I've talked to people who taught > here 20 and 30 years ago. I've got a good grip on the perspective. You would, of course, have a better grasp on that issue than I do. I take your word for it. > There will always be the few at the very top who will succeed. It's > the mediocre middle which has grown so much in recent decades. A lot > of this has to do with the false self-esteem I mentioned in my last > message. Many students think they're great because everyone in their > life has told them they're great. > > A few years ago when I was chairman of Brass and Percussion at New > England Conservatory I was listening to trumpet auditions. A young > girl came in to play and I looked through her file - good grades, > good SATs, and a recommendation from her band director which led me > to believe I was in for a treat. "By far the best student I have > ever had in my 30 years of teaching...." and all that. Anticipating > something special, I asked her what she wanted to play to start. > "Petroushka," she said. And she put her trumpet to her lips and it > was like toads started jumping out of her bell. White noise and > garbage came out. The fact that you remember this situation years later seem to indicate that it was something very much out of the ordinary. This student must not have ever come into contact with other high school trumpet players. Had she done so, she would have had a better idea of her musical abilities. > > I pity the fool, as Mr. T. used to say. The band director was a > fool's fool. Thinking he was doing a favor for the girl, he doomed > her to a life of false self esteem, built on her liking the trumpet > but not challenging her to understand that she really couldn't play. > Off she went to Boston and other cities to audition for the best > music schools because she had been sold a bill of goods by a band > director, parents and others who kept telling her she was good when > she should not play a note. > One last point about the news. CNN does not give you "the world in > 30 minutes." The world? CNN isn't in the business of giving you > news, or information. They're in the business of getting you to > watch commercials. If you want to understand conflict in the middle > east, you're not going to get any useful information and > understanding from CNN, the New York Times, Newsweek or Fox. Not > from Mario Cuomo, Rush Lindbaugh or any soundbiter. You will get it > from getting historical perspective from reading the Bible, the > Koran, history of the Crusades, history of Muslim conquest, British > colonialization, the founding of the UN, Germany between the wars, > and much more. You need to be well read. And it takes time. I can't argue with you there. However, students of today are probably no less read that students of yore. I can't think of many adults who read the items you mention, with the possible exception of the Bible. I seriously doubt that the average person of the 18th, 19th or even the 20th century read those items either. As a matter of fact, I would imagine that they read a lot less. Time was better spent on just surviving from day to day. Working a blue collar job for 8-12 hours or more a day isn't exactly condusive to expanding one's intellectual horizon. >Seriously, I urge you to read the book I referenced > in my previous message, "How the News Makes You Dumb." It does, I > assure you. I used to be a news addict. Now I read and watch very > little news, but I get a lot of useful information from a variety of > sources. I'll go blind someday for all the reading I've done. But I > know the difference between a media promise of what is news and what > is truly newsworthy. It just requires an attention span of more than > 30 seconds, or 30 minutes, or 30 hours or 30 days. Or even 30 years. I may read the book. It sounds interesting. I agree, that the news, for the most part gives a very superficial edition of news. It should be expanded with other readings. However, reading history books didn't give you the info regarding 9-11. That had to come from the news. > > Are kids worse than previous generations? Only to the extent that > society as a whole is in decline, and children reflect the decline as > do all other age groups. I'm not a fatalist or an alarmist, but I do > believe western civilization is in rapid decline. If you've read > Gibbon's "History and Decline of the Roman Empire" (and much more on > the subject of civilizations which thrive and then decline including > Barzun, Chesterton and a host of others) you have an understanding of > where we are today. The problem is that when people say this, they > get pooh-poohed, and folks turn to things they REALLY want to talk > about like global warming, forest fires and endangered species. But > we pooh-pooh about the decline of western civilization to our peril. I wonder whether Western civilization was ever in an ascent or actually had a peak. If there was a peak, when was it and why wasn't I told? Western civilization has never been a utopian or even near-utopian society. The question also arises, have we ever been truly civilized? Can there be a decline on a civilization that may never have existed. I think that we all tend to look at the past through rose colored glasses and don't remember the faults of the past. Other times, our past experiences are rather limited. We remember how pleasant things were for us and don't stop to think that perhaps the past wasn't that pleasant for everyone. Quite frankly, I don't yearn for the "good ol days." I have a higher standard of living than I've had in the past. My children receive a better education that I received. Could things be better......of course they could. Human nature is to seek to improve. We seek perfection, which we can never attain. Your nature, Doug, is that of one who sets high standards, for himselff and others. You've built yourself a good life based on your ability to set goals and to work hard to achieve those goals, augmented, of course, by natural talent. The concerns you voice are probably the same concerns you would voice had you lived in any era.The fact that you live in this era and see its flaws do not make this era any worst than any other in the past. Just my viewpoints. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:01:03 -0400 From: David Buckley Subject: Re: Teaching--What we're really dealing with Thanks Richard for your 2 letters putting this subject into some sort of perspective. The whole tenor of the topic with numerous letters filled with broad based generalities and prejudices has been grating away at me for days. I was beginning to think I was on the Philosophy list. As a real old guy born in 1931 whose experience now revolves around my 7 grandchildren and the young people in several bands and orchestras, the pessimistic view presented by many of the correspondents does not represent my personal observations. Most young people need the experience of a variety of activities to help them determine where their life focus will be. Don't decry it, encourage it. I play in 2 different trombone sections with a 21 year old student who is taking a very serious university course load while playing in 3/4 groups at a good level, a 45/50 year old female school teacher who with her husband plays in about 3 groups and myself, a 70 year old retiree who plays in 3 groups plus some freelamce at a decent amateur level. The 3 of us are as active and broadbased in our lives as any I have ever met. Based on that experience you might sat that things are great but that would also be a case of generalising from too little experience. It is hard to avoid the "Chicken Little" syndrome at times but especially in a written format and on a topic that many books have covered so maybe be we need to get back to trombone topics. Speaking of which, I've just received my orchestra's lineup for 2002/2003 and see we are playing Brahm's 1 in April. Is the chorale excerpt available on the OTJ list? Regards. Dave. richard johnson wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Douglas Yeo" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 8:00 AM > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Teaching--What we're really dealing with > > > > > When more and more parents began entering into the work force (this > > happened for a variety of reasons, including economic necessity, > > PERCEIVED economic necessity [in order to make enough money to keep > > up with the Jonses], self-actualization, etc), more and more children > > got put into day care and after school child care programs. With > > both mom and dad basically off the parenting scene (Question: how > > much influence does a parent have when they see their child only for > > breakfast and dinner - if that - and weekends are spent shuttling the > > child off to an endless stream of activities?), children are brought > > up by others. Not the extended family which used to care for > > children in the old days (grandparents, aunts and uncles), but > > nannies, day care workers, and others who are paid to entertain and > > occupy the time and minds of the child. Paid. Not because they > > actually care about the child, but because it is their job - duty - > > to care for the child. Messages are being received by the child > > which will effect him for the rest of his life. > > My personal opinion is that both parents are working because of ECONOMIC > necessity. It would be better if children could spend more time with mom and > dad. > (A point: How > > many high school students can give you the dates of the American > > Civil War, know who Abraham Lincoln's vice president was, can recite > > Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address [which is considered by many to be > > the most important speech ever given in our country], can discuss the > > issues of share cropping, post-war reconstruction, etc. Answer: very > > few. BUT - Question: How many high school students can tell you > > none of the above but can wax eloquently about how slaves FELT? You > > know the answer.) > > How many members on this list can answer all of these questions? Personally, > I think "waxing eloquently" about how the slaves may have felt is more > relevant than knowing who Abraham Lincoln's vice-president. At least, it > shows that they are thinking about how how other people feel in another > society that is vastly different than the one we live in today. I've never > had a need to know who Abraham Lincoln's vice president was. It wasn't on > any employment application or on a list of "need to know" knowledge for any > job that I've had. It is nice to know information, though.......for example, > he has the same last name as Kennedy's vice-president:) > Pushed through school with > > no real standards, admitted into college because they can pay the > > freight, sold a bill of goods by a culture which has taught them that > > their own feelings of self-satisfaction and self-entertainment are > > the highest goals, they reach a place where something is actually > > required of them (entering the work force) and they are now confused. > > While in elementary school many teachers allowed them to think 2+2=5 > > is OK as long as you feel good about the answer, they become shocked > > to learn that an engineering firm will not allow them to build a > > bridge with that view of mathematics. > > My children go to public schools and there are standards that they have to > adhere to. If they do not pass the standardized tests, they do not get a > diploma. When I was in high school, there were no tests required for > graduation. It was a lot easier to graduate then than it is now. > Our kids today are still taught to compete, that's the American way. My kids > had to compete in cheer-leading, flag corps and track. There was no false > encouragement. How the children finished depended upon their talent and work > ethic. My kids have learned that they do better at things they have worked > on than things they have not worked on. > > > > > The same goes for music. Edward Kleinhammer, in his preface to our > > book, "Mastering the Trombone," wrote a very telling sentence: > > > > "World class trombone players do not just happen. Their talents are > > forged in the dual furnaces of determination and diligence." > > > > Those that understand that - applied to any discipline - will go on > > to make a positive contribution to society. Those that don't will > > wander in the abyss of mediocrity and play the blame game of > > victimization. > > That is true. Are our music schools and conservatories turning out less > capable trombonists than in years past? I was under the impression that the > USA was full of outstanding young trombonists. > > > What we need are more people like Paul and others on the list who > > have responded in like ways who have the courage to say, "No, that > > isn't very good," and who then will take the time to patiently > > explain what can be done to make it better. Discipline with > > encouragement. Mentoring by modeling. > > I agree with that. However, I don't believe that the kids of today are in > need of this advice more so than past generations. > > > Can I make one other suggestion, which Dan has already alluded to? > > Turn off the TV. Yes, it can be done. You can get a weather > > forecast on the internet without having to put up with a scantily > > clad "weather info-babe." You can get news without CNN (A book > > recommendation: C. John Sommerville's "How the News Makes Us Dumb: > > The Death of Wisdom in an Information Society," ISBN 0-8308-2203-8, > > will forever change your view of what the media mavens call "news"). > > And, if you like sporting events, try taping them with your VCR and > > then watching them later - so you can fast forward through the > > commercials which seek to waste your time and money and which seek to > > twist your thinking in many directions. > > Yep, kids do need to read more. That would necessarily lead to them looking > at tv less. However, tv is not evil. News on tv can be informative. Beside, > if you don't get news from tv, where do you get it from...........the > newspapers? They're written on a 6th to 8th grade level! However, I agree, > it is important to get news from a wide variety of choices...Newsweek, > Times, etc. > > I understand Paul and Doug's viewpoint. I just don't agree that the children > of today are worst than previous generations. For the record, I'm not a > flaming liberal. I'm an ex-Army officer, career prosecutor who believes in > the death penalty and I believe that O.J. Simpson was guilty. I've even > voted Republican before, although not on a regular basis:) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:35:30 -0400 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." Subject: Re: Teaching--What we're really dealing with Richard, Plain and simple--the way that kids are taught how to do mathmatics and even how to read this days, in my opinion, is literally horrifying. I didn't get involved when my duaghter was involved in a writing to read program at her school, but that program encourages students to just write, without any regard for correct capitalization, subject & verb agreement, spelling, and NOTHING is EVER marked wrong. It is felt that will stifle a child's creativity. That's like taking a gallon of red paint, yellow paint, and green paint and throwing all of that paint on a canvas and calling it art. As far as the math is concerned, I've noticed that most elementary math teachers in public schools do not insist on children learning all of their multiplication tables through the 12's. They stop at 9, because the 10's are easy (just add a zero), the 11's are easy (double digits until you get to 10x11, 11x11, and 11x12) and the really ambitious students will get the 12's on their own. In other words, they assume that all of the kids will be ambitious and in the final analysis of things, it won't matter that much anyway. Furthermore, the retail industry is filled with cashiers that can't count the change back to a customer without pressing a few buttons on a computer. Don't believe me? Go to a convience store and buy something, and have the cashier ring it up on the cash register, and if it comes to .62, give them a dollar, then WATCH THEIR EYES. Their eyes will go back & forth from the till and the digital display in order to know how much change to give back to a customer. It takes "too much time" to actually count the change back to the customer, and it is a very solid indication to me that these cashiers can't think on their feet. In fact, they flat out can't think. And God help them if you give that cashier $1.02 so that you can get an even .40 back. The extra 2 cents will just fry them. In reality, most of the math that we use in everyday life is learned by the 5th grade. Most kids can't deal with decimals and percentages. And these are things that you see in every day life. It's all around you. They teach the kids to do everything on calculators, but most people do not walk around with calculators. I've even had the terrible experience of a cashier who didn't know how many was in a 1/2 dozen. She was about 17. Many public school music educators don't teach good fundamentals of reading music, either. Many kids can go through a 3 year middle school program and in the 9th grade, they can't play anything accurately with quarter notes, half notes and whole notes. The subject of time is completely ignored. Good sound and intonation are rarely discussed either, if ever. Band directors do not demonstrate on their chosen instruments many times because they CAN'T. As a result, kids get this idea that band is fun, and just a class so that you can learn group participation. If that's all you learn, what a ROYAL WASTE OF TIME. Kids are not taught to listen to anything, they have no idea about the history of ANY kind of music, whether it be classical or jazz. I, as a private teacher, am insistant that a student be more proactive in their own education. There are more sources of good information out there than ever before. However, most students are not encouraged to research anything of any kind. I've had this converstation with a good friend of mine concerning one of the students that I sent to him, and I told him that I thought that it was absolutely vital that students be encouraged to be more proactive in his lessons--try different things, find out what works, find out what doesn't, make notes, attend concerts, be involved in as many musical ensembles as his time will allow, and don't spoonfeed him everything. Make him actually DISCOVER FOR HIMSELF. That's when the student REALLY LEARNS something--not when the teacher tells him everything. He completely agreed with me. The way that you really LEARN is when you dig in and learn it for yourself. In addition, there's always this thing of review. If you think about it, that's exactly what any warmup procedure on the trombone is, whether it's long tones, lipslurs, articulation studies, WHATEVER. REVIEW, REVIEW, REVIEW. You're trying to make things sound better, more efficient. When you stop doing that, your skills start to slip. In academia, review is also necessary. I don't see review too much anymore. Band can be a very intense learning experience and STILL BE FUN. Getting back to my original post, you are certainly free to disagree with my observations. However, there are several things that I have noticed about public school music (both high school and college): 1) Colleges are willing to pay kids to participate in music programs, whether it marching band, concert band jazz ensemble, whatever, whether or not they major in music. It's called SCHOLARSHIP MONEY. If they do major in music performance or music education, that's OK too. 2) In order to get any scholarship money for music, the student must show a basic degree of competence. I, like Doug, have noticed that this basic degree of competence has diminished considerably. I have high school players that play much better than most trombone students in the local colleges here. Why? Because I refuse to allow them to accept a lower standard for themselves. 3) I believe in creating a scenario where the student has the widest array of choices available to them when they graduate. If they don't to play the trombone when they get out of school, FINE. Take the discipline that you had to exhibit in order to learn the trombone well and apply that to another area of study, and find out what happens. In other words, I'm trying to use music and the trombone as a vehicle in order to help them discover what they want to do in life, music related or not. I'm doing my part to transform them into productive citizens of society. I'm actually challenging them to do the best that THEY can do, and I challenge that BEST all of the time. They need to find out NOW that life is tough, and then you die. I don't want ANY student of mine to come back to me later on and say "Mr. Kemp, you cheated me--I could have been a more successful ********* if you would have challenged me more." So far, I haven't had that happen, and I'll do my best to make sure that it doesn't happen. I do my best to make them see the urgency of the situation, that urgency being this: "OK you're a high school freshman. In 4 short years you're going to be out of here. It's up to you to make the best of it, because that window of time will be gone before you know it." 4) The observations that I have made are very real in my life as a teacher. I'm not attacking students as people: what I have found is this: even my best students will tell you that taking trombone lessons from me has been the hardest thing that they have ever done in their life. Tougher than any academic subject in school. Why is that? I don't take short cuts. I demonstrate what I want them to be able to do on the horn. They can use me as a model if they like, or listen to the plethora of great trombone recordings out there, but I teach really strong fundamentals. Without those, the student will never be able to play anything well. I insist on slow, accurate practice. I insist that they practice the right way, and if they don't, it will most assuredly show up in their next lesson, and it will show up when they audition for chair tryouts, and honor bands. I insist that they try out for better groups in which to play (district honor bands, all state bands, etc.) I teach them how to audition and what the judges are actually listening for. A high level of success in ANYTHING requires committment and dedication. I am genuinely interested in them as people. I urge them to have a dream, a goal, and GO AFTER IT. I tell them that they're NOT going to win every time, but that's no excuse for not trying. If you aim at nothing, that's exactly what you're going to hit---nothing. I urge them not be satisfied with 2nd best. If making district honor band is easy for them, but they're sitting at the end or in middle of the trombone section, do the best that you can in order to sit at the head of that section. Every chair that you progress towards tht goal is PROGRESS. Incidentally, another thing that I've noticed is this: there are always higher levels in music that you can work to achieve, and if they can learn that one thing in high school, that's worth something. Like I said before, if they don't want to do music, FINE. Find something else that grabs you by throat and GO FOR IT. That's not a reason for educators (regardless of discipline) to lower the standard, instead they need to keep the standard high so that they don't cheat their students and give them a false sense of security. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:10:24 -0600 From: David Wilken Subject: Re: Teaching--What we're really dealing with I=B9d like to take a positive approach to all this, however I=B9m finding it difficult to do so right now. This is because instead of teaching a lesson at this time, as I should be doing, the student has chosen to not show up and not inform me. At least last week he called in advance to inform me he was ill. For those of you who do not know, I teach at the college level, so in many ways I see the end result of what many of this discussion has been covering. Although this doesn=B9t apply to all of my students, many of my students just aren=B9t all that interested in playing their instrument really well (I teach all studio brass). Some don=B9t feel they need to, because they will become music teachers, and not need to perform well (I do my best to get that notion out of their head as soon as I can). Some don=B9t realize how competitive the real world actually is because they came from a small high school and now attend a small college where the= y can play in the top ensembles without as much experience and effort as is required at the larger schools. These questions are relatively simple to deal with. Th= e really tough cases are the ones who come to major in music because they just don=B9t know what else to do, and thought high school band was fun. Most of these types flunk out after the first semester or so, or change majors after learning how difficult a music degree actually is. Some of these are worth saving, others are not. Before I go on, not all my students are like this, in fact, these types are in the minority where I teach. It=B9s difficult to be positive, however, when you are dealing with negativity. Is this my job, as a college professor to have to deal with these situations? Should this have been dealt with when the student was in high school? How can I, as a college professor, better help the high school music teachers to better prepare their students for studying music in college? As I type this I have finally managed to get in touch with my wayward student, who is sorry, and =B3...just got out of the shower.=B2 We will be having a heart- to-heart soon. What would you do? Dave --=20 David Wilken dave@trombone.org http://faculty.adams.edu/~dmwilken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:13:43 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: 3 hours at 1200 degrees. Serve hot. J.c Sherman > BassBonist@AOL.COM wrote: > > > s973819@osprey.ntu.edu.au writes: > > > > > There will be a trombone BBQ here in darwin (N.T) this sunday > > > > Which brand of BBQ sauce works best on trombones? > > > > How long do you have to cook them before they get tender enough to eat? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:14:27 -0400 From: "Avery, Ray (232)" Subject: Re: Teaching--What we're really dealing with Some observations from professional in a non-music field. I consider myself a good amateur musician with music and performance a significant avocation. Dan raised an excellent question concerning teaching only the most dedicated students. I have a BA in music theory with bass tbn as my primary instrument. I'm sure my instructor in college realized I would never rise to the ranks of a top notch professional musician. That did not stop him from working with me and teaching me to the best of his ability. And today I'm glad he made that effort. My life has been enriched as a result. I still remember a story he told me of a fellow student of his when he was in college that no one thought could become a pro. But, the guy worked at it and eventually earned a seat with a major orchestra. I think that was his way of telling me that even if I can't cut it now, if I strive for excellence, it is achievable. This concept of excellence is a concern not just with musicians, but in all walks of life. The company I work for has adopted a "values" program. It is centered around respect, trust, etc. with the ultimate goal of being the best electronics contract manufacturer. Excellence, if you will. Being in the business nearly 25 years, I have seen a change in attitudes of younger workers which mirror the experiences you music teachers have seen. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Pliskin [mailto:daniel_pliskin@HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 1:48 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Teaching--What we're really dealing with "What if teachers were to push their part in helping kids to develop "pursuit of excellence" skills, as what they did for a living... So one question that arises from this is, do you want to teach only the most dedicated students or do you want to have enough students to make a "comfortable" living?" DanP _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:29:30 -0600 From: Dennis Clason Subject: Re: Teaching--What we're really dealing with > But I wrote down the phone number of her band director who gave her > the glowing recommendation. I called him the next day to ask him why > he had written such a letter for a girl who clearly had no talent > whatsoever for the trumpet. And he said words which I have never > forgotten: "Of course she can't play. But she loves the trumpet so > much and she's such a nice girl, that I couldn't break her heart and > write a bad recommendation." > > I pity the fool, as Mr. T. used to say. The band director was a > fool's fool. Thinking he was doing a favor for the girl, he doomed > her to a life of false self esteem, built on her liking the trumpet > but not challenging her to understand that she really couldn't play. > Off she went to Boston and other cities to audition for the best > music schools because she had been sold a bill of goods by a band > director, parents and others who kept telling her she was good when > she should not play a note. Part of the problem here is that the Buckley Educational Privacy Act has been interpreted in a way that makes confidential recommendations impossible to write. I write recommendations, it's part of the job. But I tell the students that I will write my honest assessment, and that they are to come by and read it before I mail it out. By and large, I've found that most students want honest evaluations, the good ones know something about themselves and the things I write rarely come as a surprise to them. I understand the dilemma the director was faced with. He had to choose between being honest with his colleagues and being this student's "friend". He didn't put enough faith in her to give her an honest evaluation. What's worse, by sending that sort of recommendation out, he ruined his credibility with a number of colleges. What happens when he really does have a truly outstanding student? He'll write the same sort of recommendation, and the audition committees will say, "Yeah, right. That's from Joe Blowhard down in Frostbite Falls. There's no need to invite this one to audition." Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason, Ph.D. Associate Professor University Statistics Center New Mexico State University ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:39:57 -0500 From: Fred Hudson Subject: Degrees C or F? ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.c. Sherman" To: Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] > 3 hours at 1200 degrees. Serve hot. > > J.c Sherman > > BassBonist@AOL.COM wrote: > > > > > s973819@osprey.ntu.edu.au writes: > > > > > > > There will be a trombone BBQ here in darwin (N.T) this sunday > > > > > > Which brand of BBQ sauce works best on trombones? > > > > > > > How long do you have to cook them before they get tender enough to eat? > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:39:58 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: Repertory jazz Ladies and Gentlemen, About the audience, may I suggest that it doesn't really matter why they are there. I'm not trying to be controversial on this. My view is based on a realization that came after many many years of naïve attempts to communicate whatever it is that motivates me not only as a musician, but as a person. You can't be fully known any more than you can fully know someone. I wouldn't get involved in this discussion except for the fact that the realization of this truth has been of great practical value to me as a player. I've become much freer to commit to playing in a manner that doesn't compromise my musical beliefs while at the same time coming to a better understanding that allowing the other musicians the same responsibility/freedom always results in a better performance. For this relationship to flourish, great faith and trust is required. Great faith and trust because you don't really know what exactly it is the other musicians are doing or why. The audience is a part of this dynamic. They are there for their own reasons. They keep coming back because they like the experience that I am involved in providing for them. The audience is doing their thing, and the musicians are doing theirs. The audience will never really get what the musicians are doing or why. Nor will the musicians ever fully understand what they provide for the audience, each member of which being in attendance for their own reasons. This is how it is between individuals, groups, nations. I'm not saying we should give up trying to understand. That would not be doing the best we can. Nor is there anything to be gained by being disappointed when someone else fails to understand. This is the reason for the existence of faith, hope, charity, patience, forgiveness. They are practical tools for practical living, for practical music making. Am I sounding a bit too existential? Perhaps I should have emphasized "hope" a little more strongly. But if there is one thing musicians have, it's hope. I'm sure we wouldn't be bothering with conversation if we didn't have it. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Robert Holland Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 8:50 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Repertory jazz I wrote: >> That is so very patronizing. The rest of the post bothers me only a little, >> but to equate symphony concerts with emotional salve really says more about >> the writer of those words than the audience of symphony concerts. then Sabutin wrote: > Have you ever BEEN to an orchestra concert? > > Unlike Ross's antagonist, I'm sure you have. However, either we > haven't been going to the same ones...mostly I go to Carnegie Hall > or Lincoln Center...or you're just not paying attention, because the > audiences I see there are mostly completely uninvolved. Especially in > the expensive seats, the ones who give endowments. I have seen > soloists and orchestras that were abominable...out of tune, bored, > just going through the motions...and they got the same tepid response > that great performances received. The same applause, the same rote > standing ovation if the soloist or orchestra.conductor was famous > enough, the same conversations...never about the music...as the > audience filed out. > > I'm sure there were some people really listening...I certainly > was, at least to the performances that were not devoid of passion or > content...but most of the audience... This will be the last I have to say about this thread, or any other thread for a while I suspect, so that I can lose some of my hypersensitivity. My point, glossed over in your response, is not about the veracity of audiences really listening or hearing. Rather, it's about your attitude toward audiences. It's apparent from the content of your many posts that it's not merely a question of critical evaluation of our sphere(s) of activity, or even a derogatory dismissal of audiences' poor conduct and motivation. You seem to hold the audience in contempt. That's what I find patronizing (and condescending, and elitist, and suggestive of that tired dichotomy between jazz and symphonic idioms). The affect is spreading and morphing over the past couple of days as discussions emerge about audiences that don't hear, students who don't study, parents who don't parent (and by implication, musicians who don't make music, leaders who don't lead, teachers who don't teach, ad nauseum). How nice it is that we can identify so many of society's problems, objectify others as the great unwashed masses, but do so little beyond our own complaining. Leadership training I undertook in the past directs me to think somewhat differently about these things, as a few others' posts also suggest. It is implicit upon those who possess greater wealth, greater understanding, greater wisdom, greater skill, and greater opportunity (the list continues) that with that bounty, in whatever measure any individual might possess, goes also greater responsibility. That responsibility is to share ones gifts in the spirit of community and generosity, to provide service in particular to those younger and weaker, and to be patient and forgiving with others' failures just as our own. Therein lies the real beauty of being both in relation and vulnerable to others. What I see happening (to cite my own example of folks to don't ____ ) is a selfish consolidation of all things great, a retreat into isolationism, and refusal to accept responsibility for one's awards. Worse, those not so well provided for become objects of derision and the extraction of further tribute the possession of greater strength(s) makes possible. It's obviously deserved on both sides, right? So in the spirit of generosity, I'll offer that perhaps I got your tone and intent all wrong and that your relentless insistence on whatever is really borne out of something other than what I have described above. Robert Holland Briar Music Press briar@chicagonet.net http://members.aol.com/EnsPub/bmp.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:12:16 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Repertory jazz >I wrote: > >>> That is so very patronizing. The rest of the post bothers me only a little, >>> but to equate symphony concerts with emotional salve really says more about >>> the writer of those words than the audience of symphony concerts. > >then Sabutin wrote: > >> Have you ever BEEN to an orchestra concert? >> >> Unlike Ross's antagonist, I'm sure you have. However, either we >> haven't been going to the same ones...mostly I go to Carnegie Hall >> or Lincoln Center...or you're just not paying attention, because the >> audiences I see there are mostly completely uninvolved. Especially in >> the expensive seats, the ones who give endowments. I have seen >> soloists and orchestras that were abominable...out of tune, bored, >> just going through the motions...and they got the same tepid response >> that great performances received. The same applause, the same rote >> standing ovation if the soloist or orchestra.conductor was famous >> enough, the same conversations...never about the music...as the >> audience filed out. >> >> I'm sure there were some people really listening...I certainly >> was, at least to the performances that were not devoid of passion or >> content...but most of the audience... > >This will be the last I have to say about this thread, or any other thread >for a while I suspect, so that I can lose some of my hypersensitivity. > >My point, glossed over in your response, is not about the veracity of >audiences really listening or hearing. Rather, it's about your attitude >toward audiences. It's apparent from the content of your many posts that >it's not merely a question of critical evaluation of our sphere(s) of >activity, or even a derogatory dismissal of audiences' poor conduct and >motivation. You seem to hold the audience in contempt. That's what I find >patronizing (and condescending, and elitist, and suggestive of that tired >dichotomy between jazz and symphonic idioms). ===================== I do not hold "the audience" in contempt. I hold certain portions of it in contempt, and you are right, perhaps I shouldn't. Maybe like Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington, I should embrace them in a generalized and generous spirit of love, no matter who they are and how they act. But, as those artists' true nature dictated their attitudes,so does mine as well. Beethoven or Bach, Louis Armstrong or Miles Davis, Picasso, Stravinsky or Casals, it appears to me that the only single behavioral thread that runs through real artists is their own acceptance of who and what they are. That, and talent, commitment and energy. I see a larger percentage of the audience for Western European music evincing this attitude toward music as simply another lifestyle-enhancing commodity than I do the audience for any other idiom whatsoever. However,this is most definitely not a question of some "tired dichotomy between jazz and symphonic idioms". It is more a symptom of a bloated society teetering on the brink of a sort of bland, middle class intellectual and spiritual decadence, and it scares me to death. As far as my being "so very patronizing"...your very SYNTAX is patronizing (so VERY patronizing), and your idea that this is a dichotomy between "jazz" and symphonic idioms is in itself a tired cliche. It's not about idioms, it's about attention and society. And, increasingly it is about wealth. Excess wealth, the wealth of greed and corruption (both legal and moral corruption, if the Enron scandals tell us anything at all), the drive for power that appears to be about to get us into yet another war where a lot of poor people, very few middle class people die and almost no wealthy people die. On BOTH sides. If the American audience is taught almost from birth not to pay attention, that all artistic information should be treated as background noise to their quest for...for what? Another Town Car? Reservations at the best restaurant?...then when the screams of the dying in Iraq or the inner cities of America are heard, they will react the same way. "How moving!!! We simply must do something. More schnapps, my dear?" You say I am patronizing. I will use that word in another manner. I do not wish to patronize the same toilets as these people. I do not want to sit in the audience next to them; I do not want to play for them; I do not want to live in their neighborhoods; and if they gain complete control of this country...which they have not managed to do, despite at least 40 years of concentrated, murderous effort...I do not want to live here either. The people who run large parts of this culture have found it more efficient to put people into some version of walking sleep than to kill them, and they have also discovered that a soporific blanket of meaningless media is the perfect tool for that purpose. Instead of murdering Clinton, they bored him (and us) into defeat, and when they got us sufficiently bored w/meaningless information, they staged what amounted to a coup d'etat. MUCH more efficient than a bullet in the head. I suppose you have gathered by now that this makes me angry. You are right. I love this culture, this country. It has been a noble experiment (a wondrous series of divine accidents, really...), the first multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-racial country in modern history to survive and prosper. The sit-com consuming clones that I see on BOTH SIDES OF THE STAGE in the +$75 entertainment range...Lincoln Center (jazz AND orchestral), Broadway, big time hottest-thing-ever pop (black, white, latin, urban, suburban, country...the works), the uncritical consumers of network news, NY Times and Newsweek magazine pablum, scare me to death. I fear for my country, my culture, my life and my children. I really do. (How's THAT for not being patronizing, you "hypersensitive"...ahhhh, I won't even go any further with that one....) ================ > >The affect is spreading and morphing over the past couple of days as >discussions emerge about audiences that don't hear, students who don't >study, parents who don't parent (and by implication, musicians who don't >make music, leaders who don't lead, teachers who don't teach, ad nauseum). >How nice it is that we can identify so many of society's problems, objectify >others as the great unwashed masses, but do so little beyond our own >complaining. ==================== Speak for yourself. Some of us ARE doing something. Every time I pick up my horn and play real music I am doing something. What I am writing right now is an attempt to "do something". Why do you think, Robert, that so many of the people on this list DO see these things as being troubling? It is because they ARE troubling. You will not hear this on the network news nor you will not see it in the letters to the editor of USA Today or Time magazine, because those outlets are edited by and for the very people about whom we are speaking. Only in the (largely) unedited system of the internet is this thoroughly discussed, and here...in mailing lists as diverse as is this society, on website discussion groups, newsgroups by the thousands...this topic comes up in many forms. I am a car nut, and belong to a couple of automobile internet groups. There, it is expressed as amazement that the corporate culture can mobilize a multi-trillion dollar war effort but makes so very few well designed, good performing automobiles. I browse the far left AND far right areas of web occasionally...the far out sites too, sometimes...and everywhere but in the increasingly flabby mid-section of our society the same theme is stated over and over again. (Not on CNN,though.) This question is asked over and over again, in many different ways...why aren't people (corporations, government, media) paying attention? My answer is that they are being encouraged NOT to pay attention, because zombies are even better workers than slaves and misdirection works better than force. That's the working theory currently in place, it appears to me, and I think it is wrong on a very basic tactical level. The creation of neither zombies NOR slaves is the proper approach, and eventually we are going to get our collective butt kicked for providing the wrong answer. Listen to the music of Cuba sometime, the music that has come out of Cuba since Castro took over. This is another multi-cultural society, and since the revolution (which was largely an attempt on Cuba's part to free itself from the inevitable American cultural and economic dominance that nations such as Puerto Rico have suffered in the interim 40 years or so), the 11 million people there have produced a body of music that is astounding in its depth and brilliance. That's 11 million people, as in the total population of Ohio. Why there? Because their culture has not been zombified. I am not speaking for or against Castro...I am sure he has perpetrated enormous injustices in his own quest for power...but that quest had as its goal a noble idea, the preservation of a very strong culture by any means necessary, and whether through his own genius or a total accident,it appears that he has helped create and preserve a society that pays attention. I saw a documentary recently (on one of the few media outlets not completely dominated by this rush to mediocrity, public TV...although they are under severe attack as well) about Cuban baseball. The scenes of the games themselves, the audience, were astounding. The contrast to American mainstream sports audiences stood in direct relation to the point I am making about concert audiences. They were burning. Not the wearing of cheesehead hats and whoopping it up for the camera kind of burning...burning! The time, the rhythmic electricity, the sheer swing of the crowd...the attention!!! And then I remembered what it was like to go to Ebbets Field when the Dodgers played there. My grandfather used to take me there when I was very young. Same burn,same intensity, different rhythms. I went to a Yankee game several years ago...no comparison. Madison Square Garden and the Knicks too. Lots of redneck drunks (of every race), lots of corporate types there on an expense account, and way, way up there in the cheap seats...a tiny flame. =========================== > >Leadership training I undertook in the past directs me to think somewhat >differently about these things, as a few others' posts also suggest. It is >implicit upon those who possess greater wealth, greater understanding, >greater wisdom, greater skill, and greater opportunity (the list continues) >that with that bounty, in whatever measure any individual might possess, >goes also greater responsibility. That responsibility is to share ones gifts >in the spirit of community and generosity, to provide service in particular >to those younger and weaker, and to be patient and forgiving with others' >failures just as our own. Therein lies the real beauty of being both in >relation and vulnerable to others. > >What I see happening (to cite my own example of folks to don't ____ ) is a >selfish consolidation of all things great, a retreat into isolationism, and >refusal to accept responsibility for one's awards. Worse, those not so well >provided for become objects of derision and the extraction of further >tribute the possession of greater strength(s) makes possible. It's obviously >deserved on both sides, right? > >So in the spirit of generosity, I'll offer that perhaps I got your tone and >intent all wrong and that your relentless insistence on whatever is really >borne out of something other than what I have described above. > >Robert Holland >Briar Music Press >briar@chicagonet.net >http://members.aol.com/EnsPub/bmp.htm =========================== You write:"Leadership training I undertook in the past directs me to think somewhat differently about these things... It is implicit upon those who possess greater wealth, greater understanding, greater wisdom, greater skill, and greater opportunity (the list continues) that with that bounty, in whatever measure any individual might possess, goes also greater responsibility." Unbelievable. I am almost afraid to ask who gave you this leadership training, but I wlll anyway, if only rhetorically. Who are these people, exactly, who possess this wealth, understanding, wisdom, skill and opportunity, and exactly what responsibility is implicit upon them? Are they the $200 haircuts I see w/climbing into their limos outside of Lincoln Center? Since when do wealth, understanding, wisdom, skill and opportunity have any direct or intrinsic relationship whatsoever? Wealth and opportunity, certainly... Understanding, wisdom, skill may possibly result in "opportunity", but increasingly less so as this society becomes increasingly mediocritized. From democracy to mediocracy in 40 easy lessons. Double High No See in 37 years. Give a walking cipher like President Butch sufficient wealth and position, and his "opportunities" are almost unlimited. Why, he can even act as if he believes he is the President of the United States!!! Where have Jim Knepper's understanding, wisdom and skill landed him? (And believe me, he has all three.) In Staten Island. You have written a paragraph that is literally a definition of the attitude of cultural imperialism that at one time was known as "the white man's burden". It is not now entirely about race or imperialism in a physical, "I'm taking your country and what are you going to do about it and then I'm going to turn you into a proper Englishman" sense, because we have evolved way past that. It's "hearts and minds" time. In Viet Nam,the American intelligence forces mounted a crude and ultimately unsuccessful attempt to capture the "hearts and minds" of the Vietnamese people...but they learned from their failure, and now spend untraceable billions on grass roots "hearts and minds" action wherever they perceive an enemy, at home or abroad. This is most successful in cultures that have a strong media infrastructure like ours...not very successful at all in more dispersed cultures like Cuba or cultures that have kept a tight rein on their own media like the Islamic nations. Put 'em to sleep and you won't have to kill 'em. Plus, when you DO kill them, their relatives get mad and have discovered both the weapon of terrorism and the means to do damage on a grand scale. No so much need now for an enemy to mount a standing army, navy, and air force to wrestle w/us ten rounds to a decision. A couple of suitcases, and whoops, there goes Chicago... (Note...I am not supporting terrorists here of any stripe. I am simply pointing out that the physical terrorism we are seeing is entirely retaliatory in nature, and that there IS little or no "terrorism" or resistance of any kind from a population that has been put to sleep and/or bought off. No more white middle class counterculture to speak of, for instance, just images of people doing upper body dancing in their Mitsubishi as they listen to soulless mechanical techno music and wear slightly strange hats. The blanket encouragement of mediocrity IS terrorism.) Have I abstracted all this from my observations of bored NY Philharmonic audiences? You betcha. Plus a couple of years of living in America as a musician. As above, so below. Like you, Robert, I too am now finished w/this thread. Time to go practice,. S. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:12:14 EDT From: Dslide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Repertory jazz In a message dated 9/25/02 11:50:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, briar@CHICAGONET.NET writes: > My point, glossed over in your response, is not about the veracity of > audiences really listening or hearing. Rather, it's about your attitude > toward audiences. It's apparent from the content of your many posts that > it's not merely a question of critical evaluation of our sphere(s) of > activity, or even a derogatory dismissal of audiences' poor conduct and > motivation. You seem to hold the audience in contempt. That's what I find > patronizing (and condescending, and elitist, and suggestive of that tired > dichotomy between jazz and symphonic idioms). > In Sam's defense...I don't see this at all. In fact, he's even cited the enthusiastic involvement of audiences in jazz clubs and festivals around the world in support of his (and also my) view that jazz is alive and important. It's not a lost language. I also find many of your posts to be patronizing. I don't know if you intend them to be, or if they just 'read' that way. Instead of this feeling like an exchange of ideas, your posts always seem like the teacher getting out the red marker and grading us according to your sensibilities. Did you not get enough hugs as a kid? (that's a joke...with no malice behind it) Take a break and relax. You seem a little tense. David Gibson dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:14:09 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Teaching--What we're really dealing with >It's called active parenting, sans the TV as a babysitter. You have to like >your kids do to that. My teaching experience years ago led me to wonder how >many parents really liked their kids. I worked with a conservative manager, many years ago, who actually believed that if he forbid his kids to do something, like drink alcohol, that they wouldn’t do it. Instead what he did was to forbid any conversation about drinking, once his kids got old enough to try it. He lost his chance to be the voice of experience about drinking and left that part of child rearing up to his kids peers. Trombone content: I sold a Buescher Elkhart, a beautiful small-bore trombone, to the son of a friend. He commented that it didn’t have a knob and rubber tip, for a bumper, on the slide crook (It’s just solidly re-enforced, there). Seems that he and his trombone-playing pals have figured out how to spin their Parrot trombones on those bumpers. Had I forbid him from doing that, he’s never teach me how to do it….No, what I really meant to say was, he’d only be forbidden from telling me about it, again. Instead I could tell him about how a trumpet player, in a band I was in, wanted to learn how to twirl his trumpet just like the guys in James Brown’s band. One day, it slipped off of his finger and got so damaged that he didn’t know if it could be repaired. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:17:22 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: "Sherwood Master" Trombone >I own a Sherwood Deluxe myself, though it is kept with my family in WA... >satin silver with gold wash bell. Plays like a brick (in the bad way). So Fred, you're saying it would be good, used for Rock and Roll but not quite loud enough for Heavy Metal? ;?) DanP _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:17:52 -0400 From: Douglas Yeo Subject: Re: Teaching--What we're really dealing with Lest there be any misunderstanding (and clearly some are reading things into my posts which are not there), living a balanced life which is not obsessive about a particular thing is important. And I have said so repeatedly in posts to the list and on my website (funny, it seems you're damned if you do and damned if you dont: some took exception to my praise of Pamela Frank's comments I've posted a few times as she say that you should only practice a few hours a day and then get out of the practice room and experience life). Experiencing life, having a broad range of hobbies and activities all are things which will help a person be a better "whatever they want to be." In the case of people who want to be professional musicians, the balanced life leads to experiences which can inform and make better the very act of music making. Nobody in this recent discussion, least of all me, has suggested that students need to lock themselves in a practice room and deprive themselves of food, water and light. That said, an understanding of excellence, discipline, self-sacrifice and patience are things which are necessary for someone to succeed in ANY occupation, including music. It is the lack of these kinds of virtues in many people and in society at large which is what has been talked about here. It's trombone related, it's life related. It's not trivial. Years ago, in one of my first posts to the trombone-l, I had a discussion with a young trombone student who complained I was being too hard on him because I suggested that a student who was aspiring to play at the highest professional level needed to make sacrifices in order to get there. That discussion now appears on my website, as my FAQ #1 on performance standards: http://www.yeodoug.com/standards.html It was one of the first things to go up on my website and it is one of the most frequently read pages I have. Read it and you'll see that I don't think the sky is falling. I just want people to look up and know there's a sky. Among other things. -Doug Yeo -- Douglas Yeo Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra Music Director, The New England Brass Band dyeo@rcn.com http://www.yeodoug.com <>< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:20:21 EDT From: Dslide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Teaching--What we're really dealing with In a message dated 9/26/02 11:16:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ravery@HARVARDGRP.COM writes: > That did not stop him > from working with me and teaching me to the best of his ability. And today > I'm glad he made that effort. My life has been enriched as a result. That's what it's all about. Music can enrich the lives of all participants, whether they be performer or audience. You're blessed that your instructor gave you a deeper understanding to heighten your experience. People need the "truth" in whatever form they can get it. It could be a photograph, an essay or novel, a painting, or dance, or music. In my opinion, the education system has spent too much time trying to create professional musicians, and professional educators ...instead of educating people with tools for an enriching life. Feed the soul. David Gibson dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:26:49 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: trombone BBQ in Darwin > > There will be a trombone BBQ here in darwin (N.T) this sunday >Which brand of BBQ sauce works best on trombones? Forget it, Matt. These aren't normal trombones, like you and I play. These trombones have evolved, over the years to work well with BBQ sauce. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:08:12 -0500 From: Fred Hudson Subject: Re: "Sherwood Master" Trombone Dan This was actually J. C. Sherman's response to my query but I got the impression it wouldn't fly in any gig. Fred H ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 12:17 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] "Sherwood Master" Trombone > >I own a Sherwood Deluxe myself, though it is kept with my family in WA... > >satin silver with gold wash bell. Plays like a brick (in the bad way). > > So Fred, you're saying it would be good, used for Rock and Roll but not > quite loud enough for Heavy Metal? ;?) > > DanP > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:20:52 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Repertory jazz yeah maybe thats why the bones are trying to play so loud = so the clowns in the zoot suits in box seats cant hear themselves think oooooooooopppps this is like a ''pop''concert ======uh oh -----how aboutthe --surprize symphony --??????? composers rise to the occasion and write music for audience particpation limbo rock --- mambo no 5 ---- ----------beethovens 17th sym ---- ------------------------------ new york aint the hole ball of wax either ---but dont tell nobody that ----- uh where duz a new yarker go to git disscovered -----paris ---bla bla - ---------- envy jealousy status symbull.bear land greener grass in cuba take the money away burn the twin towers[oops done that -certainly got nyers attentshion for about 5 minutes b4 they jumped into making $$ off it] -----maybe the araps shoulda hit the lco or cornaching hall ---- -------- the perfect audience -----------is a buncha pigeons and you got a bag o bread crumbs '''''''''''''''---------------johnny cash ----folsom prison '''''''' your dog --------- '''''''''''''' kids for about 30 seconds =========its way easier to listen to cds the perfect audience throws hundred dollar bills on the floor so the less fortunate can eat at the fag barn -----i mean fancy restaurant ---- audiences go to be seen not herd --------------------- give em what they want --15 seconds of fame ----- the reason they go --because they are elitist superior beings with pedigrees ----oops thats the dog show ------ how about a performance piece ???????where the soloist shoots the first row with a a flame thrower --------lets take it on the road ---- -------at least you get to go to these fancy schmantzy places -- and then complain about it ---thats riche --------------------------- --------- oh i laid this chick ---sloppy i had that car ----ran out of gas like this thread fred------- ------------------ those idiots in the box seats ??? theyre part of the show ----- no respect ----rodney dangerfield -takes up the viola !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dslide13@AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 9/25/02 11:50:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > briar@CHICAGONET.NET writes: > > > My point, glossed over in your response, is not about the veracity of > > audiences really listening or hearing. Rather, it's about your attitude > > toward audiences. It's apparent from the content of your many posts that > > it's not merely a question of critical evaluation of our sphere(s) of > > activity, or even a derogatory dismissal of audiences' poor conduct and > > motivation. You seem to hold the audience in contempt. That's what I find > > patronizing (and condescending, and elitist, and suggestive of that tired > > dichotomy between jazz and symphonic idioms). > > > > In Sam's defense...I don't see this at all. In fact, he's even cited the > enthusiastic involvement of audiences in jazz clubs and festivals around the > world in support of his (and also my) view that jazz is alive and important. > It's not a lost language. I also find many of your posts to be patronizing. > I don't know if you intend them to be, or if they just 'read' that way. > Instead of this feeling like an exchange of ideas, your posts always seem > like the teacher getting out the red marker and grading us according to your > sensibilities. Did you not get enough hugs as a kid? (that's a joke...with > no malice behind it) > > Take a break and relax. You seem a little tense. > > David Gibson > dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:45:58 EDT From: MikeSuter@AOL.COM Subject: I'm sorry. I really am. But I can't get this to leave my brain voluntarily. << Which brand of BBQ sauce works best on trombones? >> Trombotine Hickory. I'm so ashamed. MS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:56:06 -0500 From: "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" Subject: Re: Jazz repertory - Society's priorities David: I so enjoyed your post I wanted to let you know. Just because you have money doesn't mean you have class, and lack of money does not remove class. Here I mean "class" as in "good taste". Today's America too often celebrates mediocrity and is suspicious of any excellence and will often find a way to denigrate excellence achieved by any individual(s) not deemed worthy. I think this is the affliction of the "nobles" of our time. It is our replacement for the aristocratic system in France. Now, everyone wants to be mediocre rather than be King. If you achieve excellence without some unfair advantage, you disturb the peasants and wake them from the collective American dream. Yet the only way to change the dream is to perturb the status quo as early jazzers did. Of course they paid the price for this in many ways. This paragraph is probably not clear enough, but time keeps me from better explanation. Realizing which goals to pursue in life is difficult too. History suggests the choices the public makes hasn't changed much, only the specifics change. Yet art that survives is necessarily created, and appreciated by only a few. Lives imitate art, art imitates lives. Rick Marple San Antonio TX ============= In a society ruled by a class of nobles, everyone aspired to be like the nobles. The middle classes (meaning the merchants, craftsmen, professionals, etc. who had a higher social standing than peasants but were excluded from the ruling classes)wanted to be as much like the nobility as possible--which is the point of Moliere's Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme (The Middle Class Gentleman). From the standpoint of the aristocratts, the whole exercise was ridiculous, because they thought they had a monopoly on taste. Today, we realize that taste has nothing to do with how rich or poor you are or what social rank you have. If we can turn off the commercialized pabulum long enough to get people to listen to good music, as many poor people will enjoy it as rich people. The fact remains that most of our art music is a direct descendant of the kinds of music fostered by the nobility. That automatically makes many people suspicious of it. In this context then, one important aspect of Bebop is that a bunch of black people--at a time when racism was not only more virulent than it is now, but quite respectable--preferred to be regarded not as enteertainers but as artists whose music deserved to be listened to for its own sake. Like Beethoven before them, they both demanded and commanded respect. In effect, they declared themselves the musical aristocracy and forced the musical world to accept them as such. There seems to be a wide-spread assumption that excellence is antidemocratic, that if mediocrity is good enough for most people (which it always has been, is, and always will be), then it should be good enough for all people. With so many people aspiring to become rich and so few aspiring to become noble (in any sense of the term), developing an appreciation of artistic excellence may seem like a distraction from the goal rather than as a means of achieving anything worthwhile. So how can those of us who know or care about excellence (in music or anything else) keep from getting steamrolled by those whose profits come from stifling it? > >I don't have any good answers, only tough questions. > Ditto -- *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* David Guion Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? david@trombone.org *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:08:13 -0500 From: E P LUKAS Subject: Re: Teaching--What we're really dealing with Dslide13@AOL.COM wrote: > In my opinion, the education > system has spent too much time trying > to create professional musicians, and > professional educators ...instead of > educating people with tools for an > enriching life. Feed the soul. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! Excellent post! I started playing the trombone 40 years ago, through high school, through college, and now, in middle age, in a community concert band. Despite a demanding engineering career, my old trombone followed me everywhere, even into rural China in 1983 and 1984, where the villagers saw and heard a trombone for the first time in their lives. On holidays, I played in the village band. The villagers could not read nor write, there was no written music, and I had never seen, nor could I pronounce the names of, the musical instruments they played. I tooted along some notes that seemed appropriate, and threw in an occasional FFF gliss to the delight of the villagers. All the while drinking the country alcoholic brew the farmers made! (Warm of course, no electricity for refrigerators!) Despite never having had the benefit of any formal music education (not even a music appreciation course!), I feel that I have a better feel for music and our species than most musicians in the US. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:14:11 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Teaching--What we're really dealing with > Plain and simple--the way that kids are taught how to do mathmatics >and >even how to read this days, in my opinion, is literally horrifying. I >didn't >get involved when my duaghter was involved in a writing to read program at >her school, but that program encourages students to just write, without any >regard for correct capitalization, subject & verb agreement, spelling, and >NOTHING is EVER marked wrong. It is felt that will stifle a child's >creativity. I took a fabulous poetry writing course in college. It was called Gestalt Dream Analysis and Poetry Writing. We wrote poems about our dreams. What was so wonderful about it was that no one else had had that same dream, so no one else could comment about whether your description of a pine tree conjured up a pine tree for them. It was your dream, your pine tree. As such, there was no competition, no right or wrong. It was fabulous and we all learned that we could write poetry…All of us. There are many reasons why a child might excel in writing class. He may be extraverted and not care all that much about the content. She might actually be an excellent writer and not afraid of failure. But structure the class as a competition and you’ll certainly loose the shy students and those who have fallen behind. For the life of me, I can’t imagine how one would teach elementary school without grades and competition, but if those teachers have figured out how to teach kids the basics, without competition, then I applaud them. Ultimately, the classroom, keeping order in the classroom, is all about those who are straggling behind, not about those who excel. Getting those kids involved and keeping those kids involved will keep the subject matter on schoolwork and not discipline. And if you’ve got kids who do excel, then I sincerely recommend that you get them involved in more after-school activities, because they’re up to being able to handle fuller lives. Or I invite you to get them into magnet and private schools, where the stragglers flunk out and are sent back to public school. If they’re old enough, let them finish high school in junior college. Two of my kids did that and found it way more interesting than high school. But I pay for those public schools and I want them to be teaching everyone, not just those that raise their hands. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:26:55 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: > > > > There will be a trombone BBQ here in darwin (N.T) this sunday > > > Which brand of BBQ sauce works best on trombones? > > How long do you have to cook them before they get tender enough to eat? >3 hours at 1200 degrees. Serve hot. No! You’ll ruin the texture, cooking them like that. They’ll come out like canned asparagus. Cooking a trombone takes a long, long time. First you get your jazz licks down solidly. Then you start working on your doodle-tonguing, till you can play those jazz licks as grace notes. Then you mix in a blend of wild and crazy jazz musicians and play your heart out. Stir it up with those cats and in time, people will start letting you know that you really know how to cook. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:47:57 -0400 From: "Avery, Ray (232)" Subject: Re: Teaching--What we're really dealing with "Or I invite you to get them into magnet and private schools, where the stragglers flunk out and are sent back to public school." Actually, in my limited private school teaching experience from 25 years ago, it was the opposite. Kids who flunked out of or were kicked out of public school ended up in the private schools. Unfortunately, when my kids attended the same school in the early to mid 90's, it was the same. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 -----Original Message----- From: Daniel Pliskin [mailto:daniel_pliskin@HOTMAIL.COM] Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 3:14 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Teaching--What we're really dealing with > Plain and simple--the way that kids are taught how to do mathmatics >and >even how to read this days, in my opinion, is literally horrifying. I >didn't >get involved when my duaghter was involved in a writing to read program at >her school, but that program encourages students to just write, without any >regard for correct capitalization, subject & verb agreement, spelling, and >NOTHING is EVER marked wrong. It is felt that will stifle a child's >creativity. I took a fabulous poetry writing course in college. It was called Gestalt Dream Analysis and Poetry Writing. We wrote poems about our dreams. What was so wonderful about it was that no one else had had that same dream, so no one else could comment about whether your description of a pine tree conjured up a pine tree for them. It was your dream, your pine tree. As such, there was no competition, no right or wrong. It was fabulous and we all learned that we could write poetry...All of us. There are many reasons why a child might excel in writing class. He may be extraverted and not care all that much about the content. She might actually be an excellent writer and not afraid of failure. But structure the class as a competition and you'll certainly loose the shy students and those who have fallen behind. For the life of me, I can't imagine how one would teach elementary school without grades and competition, but if those teachers have figured out how to teach kids the basics, without competition, then I applaud them. Ultimately, the classroom, keeping order in the classroom, is all about those who are straggling behind, not about those who excel. Getting those kids involved and keeping those kids involved will keep the subject matter on schoolwork and not discipline. And if you've got kids who do excel, then I sincerely recommend that you get them involved in more after-school activities, because they're up to being able to handle fuller lives. Or I invite you to get them into magnet and private schools, where the stragglers flunk out and are sent back to public school. If they're old enough, let them finish high school in junior college. Two of my kids did that and found it way more interesting than high school. But I pay for those public schools and I want them to be teaching everyone, not just those that raise their hands. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:28:20 -0700 From: Daryl Burch Subject: Mix in a few pounds of Fat Back Drums... ...fold in a pocket of Heavy slap Bass ...sprinkle with a bit o' B3 Now you're cookin' with soul, baby!! -D- #;-) At 07:26 PM 9/26/2002 +0000, Daniel Pliskin wrote: >> > > > There will be a trombone BBQ here in darwin (N.T) this sunday > >> > > Which brand of BBQ sauce works best on trombones? > >> > How long do you have to cook them before they get tender enough to eat? > >>3 hours at 1200 degrees. Serve hot. > >No! You'll ruin the texture, cooking them like that. They'll come out like >canned asparagus. > >Cooking a trombone takes a long, long time. First you get your jazz licks >down solidly. Then you start working on your doodle-tonguing, till you can >play those jazz licks as grace notes. Then you mix in a blend of wild and >crazy jazz musicians and play your heart out. Stir it up with those cats >and in time, people will start letting you know that you really know how to >cook. > >DanP > >_________________________________________________________________ >Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. >http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:19:10 -0400 From: rhanks@STUDENT.UMASS.EDU Subject: How to repair bones? I'm really interested in learning how to repair horns and I am wondering if any of you out there who do it could tell me how you got to learning the trade. Are there any good books, courses, tools, etc that I should look into. I would love any info you could provide me. Thanks Rich Hanks ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 21:38:05 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: How to repair bones? > I'm really interested in learning how to repair horns and I am wondering >if any >of you out there who do it could tell me how you got to learning the trade. >Are >there any good books, courses, tools, etc that I should look into. I would >love >any info you could provide me. Rich, There are schools that teach instrument repair. Contact NAPBIRT, for more information on that. They’re the band instrument repairperson’s union. To get a sense of the tools, get a catalog from Ferree’s. They’re also on line, but I don’t think their catalog is, yet. But they’ll send you a catalog, if you ask them. There’s a book by Brand, which is OK, but barely scratches the surface. The problem is that there are lots of ways to do many of the jobs and Brand’s idea of what tools to use isn’t Ferree’s idea of what tools to use, isn’t my idea of what tools to use. Certainly there’s quite a bit of overlap, but I’ve made a lot of my own tools, as well. We have several trombonists who repair instruments for a living and several more who repair them for fun, on the list. I do it for kicks and have bought crumpled trombones on ebay, specifically to have instruments to repair. Now I own about 20 trombones, in various states of repair. Am I a nut? Why, YES! But maybe more of a harmless crackpot. DanP PS: I LOVE repairing trombones. If you’re looking for a career, I can’t imagine a better one. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:52:20 -0400 From: bonearzt@MINDSPRING.COM Subject: Re: How to repair bones? Hi Rich, I recommend finding someone who does good slide work and ask if he'll take you on as an apprentice. This is how I started, and I thoroughly believe you'll get a better understanding of how to make slides work and repair in general by apprenticing. The tech schools will probably give you an ok education as far as technique and theory, but you probably won't learn how to make a living at it. Thanks & Good Luck Eric Edwards bonearzt@mindspring.com "Just shut up and play!" On Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:19:10 -0400 rhanks@STUDENT.UMASS.EDU wrote: > I'm really interested in learning how to > repair horns and I am wondering if any > of you out there who do it could tell me how > you got to learning the trade. Are > there any good books, courses, tools, etc that > I should look into. I would love > any info you could provide me. > Thanks > Rich Hanks > Thanks Eric Edwards bonearzt@mindspring.com "Just shut up and play!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 18:14:07 EDT From: BassBonist@AOL.COM Subject: Nessun Dorma bone parts Could someone please help me out? I'm dealing with some illegible photocopied parts. I need to know the voicing of the D major chord at the end of Nessun Dorma for tuba and trombones. Thanks in advance, Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:27:16 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Nessun Dorma bone parts I just played it on a 9/11 concert (don't ask how that bit of programming magic came about). The parts that we were looking at were just cut and pastes from the score, and it didn't actually end on Dmaj because it was going on to the next part in the opera. We just faked a pretty generic Dmaj voicing there. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE- > L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of BassBonist@AOL.COM > Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 5:14 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] Nessun Dorma bone parts > > Could someone please help me out? I'm dealing with some illegible > photocopied > parts. I need to know the voicing of the D major chord at the end of > Nessun > Dorma for tuba and trombones. > > Thanks in advance, > > > Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 18:06:28 -0500 From: Bob Koester Subject: Lost list again SUBSCRIBE TROMBONE-LGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : = http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 18:30:14 -0500 From: Jeff Oien Subject: Orchestral Equipment Size After having had a complete layoff from playing and listening to music for seven years plus 3-4 years of not much playing before that, now that I'm back at it again I've come to learn that there are tenor players in major symphonies playing on bass trombone slides, using very large mouthpieces and some bass trombone players not using leadpipes. I'm not making a judgment about this and don't want to start a debate which may have already occurred before I arrived here. But I do have some questions. Is this done mainly by sections that have an associate principal to ease the load? I can't imagine getting through a major work playing principal on equipment that's nearly bass trombone size. Is this mainly a conductor thing or a trombonist thing? Will we be seeing a .600 bore bass trombone soon? Again, I'm not making a value judgment even though my questions sound a little negative. I've gotten a hold of some recent recordings and can't say I dislike the sound a whole lot. If I needed to do it to get a job I would. However it seems some edge is good and there wouldn't be a need to move such a huge amount of air if equipment was more "normal", whatever that is. I think the sound that the old Leningrad and Boston Symphonies from the early sixties was extremely powerful and impressive with the edge they played with for example. I better stop now. Curious to hear your thoughts and insights. Jeff Oien ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 20:00:48 EDT From: BassBonist@AOL.COM Subject: Re: How to repair bones? > I'm really interested in learning how to repair horns and I am wondering > if any > of you out there who do it could tell me how you got to learning the trade. > Check all of your local college course catalogs to see if musical instrument repair classes are offered. At a community college here in southern California there is a course taught in two parts: brass first semester and woodwinds second semester. If both types of classes are offered in your area, I highly recommend taking them BOTH, even if you only want to know how to fix brass. If no schools teach these types of courses, call all the repair shops or music stores with repair facilities (that have good reputations) and ask if they take on students. There is no substitute for learning how to repair musical instruments from someone who has been doing it well for many years. Matt PS- NAPBIRT is not a union but an a group of techs that put out a regular newsletter, have a repair school (in the midwest) and have a yearly convention with clinics for members. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 20:17:13 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Orchestral Equipment Size At 06:30 PM 9/26/2002 -0500, Jeff Oien wrote: >Is this done mainly by sections that have an associate >principal to ease the load? I can't imagine getting through >a major work playing principal on equipment that's nearly >bass trombone size. I'm baffled by this comment. I certainly haven't played all the major symphonic works, but even if you put all of them back to back, that is surely less work than one good symphonic band, brass quintet, brass band, or trombone choir concert. I don't see how any orchestra concert would ever provide much strain for a good player, leadpipe or no leadpipe. In fact, I kind of wonder how they keep their chops up when so many hours of the day are spent counting rests. I know when I get home from an orchestra rehearsal, I feel like I need an hour of hard practice to feel like I'm not letting the chops deteriorate. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 20:33:40 -0500 From: Jeff Oien Subject: Re: Orchestral Equipment Size > At 06:30 PM 9/26/2002 -0500, Jeff Oien wrote: > >Is this done mainly by sections that have an associate > >principal to ease the load? I can't imagine getting through > >a major work playing principal on equipment that's nearly > >bass trombone size. > > I'm baffled by this comment. I certainly haven't played all the major > symphonic works, but even if you put all of them back to back, that is > surely less work than one good symphonic band, brass quintet, brass band, > or trombone choir concert. I don't see how any orchestra concert would > ever provide much strain for a good player, leadpipe or no leadpipe. In > fact, I kind of wonder how they keep their chops up when so many hours of > the day are spent counting rests. I know when I get home from an orchestra > rehearsal, I feel like I need an hour of hard practice to feel like I'm not > letting the chops deteriorate. For the most part yes. But I was thinking - put an overture of some sort and Bruckner together and there must be some fatigue playing ffff on a bass trombone size horn playing principal. What's the associate principal there for? Jeff Oien ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 21:46:22 -0400 From: David Fetter Subject: Morceau Symphonique - Orchestra Arrangement To listers... I am happy to announce that an arrangement for orchestra I made of the piano accompaniment of the Guilmant "Morceau Symphonique," which was used when I played with the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra in the 1970s, is now for sale from TAPMusic in Newton, Iowa. See www.tapmusic.com or call 641 792-0352, fax 792- 1361. The score and parts have been redone by an expert copyist. The instrumentation is pairs of winds, horns, and trumpets with harp and strings. The style of orchestration imitates that of Carl Maria von Weber in his "Oberon Overture." The addition of the harp is a nod to the French influence in "Morceau," which in its harmony leans more toward Cesar Franck. David Fetter Peabody Conservatory and Preparatory Trombone Faculties Associate Dean for Performance Activities and Placement 1 East Mt. Vernon Place Baltimore, MD 21202 David Fetter - Music for Brass (Mostly) Home page: gigue.peabody.jhu.edu/~davidf/ _________________________________________________________________________ This mail sent via toadmail.com, web e-mail @ ToadNet - want to go fast? http://www.toadmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 21:15:02 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Orchestral Equipment Size At 08:33 PM 9/26/2002 -0500, Jeff Oien wrote: > > At 06:30 PM 9/26/2002 -0500, Jeff Oien wrote: > > >Is this done mainly by sections that have an associate > > >principal to ease the load? I can't imagine getting through > > >a major work playing principal on equipment that's nearly > > >bass trombone size. > > > > I'm baffled by this comment. I certainly haven't played all the major > > symphonic works, but even if you put all of them back to back, that is > > surely less work than one good symphonic band, brass quintet, brass band, > > or trombone choir concert. I don't see how any orchestra concert would > > ever provide much strain for a good player, leadpipe or no leadpipe. In > > fact, I kind of wonder how they keep their chops up when so many hours of > > the day are spent counting rests. I know when I get home from an orchestra > > rehearsal, I feel like I need an hour of hard practice to feel like I'm not > > letting the chops deteriorate. > >For the most part yes. But I was thinking - put an overture >of some sort and Bruckner together and there must be some fatigue playing >ffff on a bass trombone size horn playing principal. What's the associate >principal there for? To play the second part. Surely there aren't a lot of occasions when the Associate has to bail out the Principal because of fatigue. Also, I'm not sure that it is terribly common for the Principal players to be on bass-sized equipment. I suppose a lot of them play 547 bore, but very few go larger than a Bach 3 or 4 mouthpiece, and that is much smaller than modern bass equipment. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 21:39:13 -0500 From: Jeff Oien Subject: Re: Orchestral Equipment Size > At 08:33 PM 9/26/2002 -0500, Jeff Oien wrote: > > > At 06:30 PM 9/26/2002 -0500, Jeff Oien wrote: > > > >Is this done mainly by sections that have an associate > > > >principal to ease the load? I can't imagine getting through > > > >a major work playing principal on equipment that's nearly > > > >bass trombone size. > > > > > > I'm baffled by this comment. I certainly haven't played all the major > > > symphonic works, but even if you put all of them back to back, that is > > > surely less work than one good symphonic band, brass quintet, brass band, > > > or trombone choir concert. I don't see how any orchestra concert would > > > ever provide much strain for a good player, leadpipe or no leadpipe. In > > > fact, I kind of wonder how they keep their chops up when so many hours of > > > the day are spent counting rests. I know when I get home from an > orchestra > > > rehearsal, I feel like I need an hour of hard practice to feel > like I'm not > > > letting the chops deteriorate. > > > >For the most part yes. But I was thinking - put an overture > >of some sort and Bruckner together and there must be some fatigue playing > >ffff on a bass trombone size horn playing principal. What's the associate > >principal there for? > > To play the second part. Surely there aren't a lot of occasions when the > Associate has to bail out the Principal because of fatigue. Also, I'm not > sure that it is terribly common for the Principal players to be on > bass-sized equipment. I suppose a lot of them play 547 bore, but very few > go larger than a Bach 3 or 4 mouthpiece, and that is much smaller than > modern bass equipment. You mean the second chair player doesn't play the second part? :) I'm talking about orchestras with FOUR players. Of course they play on 547 bore, that's pretty standard. I'm just saying that I've noticed some now play on bass trombone slides and this seems to be a continuing trend among some orchestras. A Bach 2 or 3 on a bass trombone slide is pretty large. I realize that isn't as large as most modern bass equipment. I also wanted to ask is the same thing happening with other brass instruments and is this happening overseas. Jeff Oien ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:42:26 -0400 From: Chris Dearth Subject: Re: Teaching--What we're really dealing with When I was doing a lot of teaching, I saw so much of the lack of drive = to improve. I did several temp positions at various universities and = saw a major portion of the students falling into this categories (which = made the ones who busted their butts even more special). So often I had = kids that didn't have any idea of what was expected and were frankly = put-off when I upped the level of expectation. I never have believed in = blowing smoke up a students hiney. This general malaise among so many = of them is one (of several) reason I decided to not pursue teaching = full-time because I am not sure when, or if, it is going to get better. = I started my music career studying with a retired band director who, = though not a trombone player, knew how to teach, was demanding, and gave = me a solid foundation to begin with. What he gave to me far eclipsed my = studies at school (I always felt that trombone class at school was = moving to slow for me). In junior high I studied with a trombone = student from West Virginia University (who drove in on the weekends) who = really upped the level of expectation and who was the first to lite the = fire in me to practice regularly. One of the most pivotal things he = ever did was give me a copy of, "Manhatten Wildlife Refuge" by Bill = Watrous. Absolutely FLOORED me. It got me excited about what you could = do. I also had a junior high band director who was very demanding and = made band fun through the striving to be your best. The high school I = went to had a pair of band directors who gave new meaning to the word = demanding. At the time, we had one of the top high school band programs = in the state. We averaged 14-16 people in the WV All-State band, = consistantly placed in the top 3 at the state jazz band, had a concert = band playing hard grade 6 lit (Ive's, "Variations on America", del = Borgo, "Do Not Go Gentle Into that Good Night", and John Corigliano, = "Gazebo Dances" to name a few). This didn't happen by them making us = feel good. It happened by holding us to the highest standards and not = backing away from this standards so we felt good about ourselves. We = felt good about ourselves because the hard work we did payed off in = spades, not because our directors blew smoke up our fannies. =20 On the flip side, I had a student at Indiana (when I was a teaching = assistant there) who was working to get into the school of music as an = ed major, but who started her college career as undeclared. Her goal = with our lessons was to get her playing up to a level acceptable to be = an Ed major at IU (academically, she was VERY bright and had a fair = amount of scholarship for her good grades). After a few weeks, I could = tell she wasn't putting the time in on the horn that was needed and she = was starting to become a drag. I decided that, since this was her goal, = I wasn't going to be doing her any favors if I didn't nip this in the = bud. So I layed it out bluntly (no yelling or tears or anything) and = told her that, if she wants this, she was going to have to kick it into = high gear or her chances of getting in were zilch. The wake-up call did = her wonders. She started practicing more. As she got better, she = enjoyed playing more. As the semester went on, we developed a healthy = student-teacher relationship and she ended up being one of the students = I ended up enjoying the most. Does it have a happy ending? No. She, = ultimately, didn't get in. But it wasn't because of a lack of = perserverance. It was really fun to see her rise as high as she could. = The trombone profs at IU always noted her steady improvement at jury = time (even secondary's did jury's, though a lot less stressful) and = thought highly of the effort she put into improving. I do agree with Jay that ya got get them excited. The first way is in = your own general excitement. The one's who are gonna catch the bug will = catch it. The one's who won't, won't. (Jay, is it a coincidence that I = hated math too). But when they do, it makes lessons interesting. Some of my friends (who are and were educators) have discussed the ADD = society. There are almost far too many activities for kids to be = involved in. So many parents push them into 50 million things, that = they end up being 'Jack-of-all-trades, master of NONE'. Bobby or Sissy = have to be involved in football, soccer, cross country, chearleading, = crew, vollyball, softball, scouts, marble club, tiddleywinks team, etc. = that they don't have time to master any one or two things. =20 Anywho, I've ramble too long and must go to bed. Chris Dearth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:36:56 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Orchestral Equipment Size At 09:39 PM 9/26/2002 -0500, Jeff Oien wrote: >You mean the second chair player doesn't play the second part? :) I'm >talking about orchestras with FOUR players. Ah. If there are 4 players sitting on stage when the repertoire calls for 3, then I'd say that's a great union. Have a look at http://trombone.org/orchsections/ If you search for all the orchestras in New York, for example, there are about 25 orchestras listed, but only the Met and the Phil show Co- or Assistant Principals. I'm certain that Alessi doesn't need any help covering his parts, so I presume that the Assistant (Markey) is there to cover the 4-part stuff and play Principal when Joe is out doing clinics and such. The NYP is pretty well funded. They probably have Assistant Principal triangle players. >Of course they play on >547 bore, that's pretty standard. I'm just saying that I've noticed some now >play on bass trombone slides and this seems to be a continuing trend >among some orchestras. A Bach 2 or 3 on a bass trombone slide is >pretty large. I realize that isn't as large as most modern bass equipment. Have a look at http://edwards-instruments.com/trombone/tenor/artists/ This is by no means the definitive answer to your question, but it is an interesting set of data points. This lists the configurations that a number of players use with the Edwards symphonic tenors. James Roberts and Ko-Ichiro Yamamoto are listed as a 547/562 dual bore. The other 30 artists are listed as using 547/547 slides. I wouldn't consider the 547/562 radical, as the F attachment loop is in 562 anyway on these symphonic horns. I haven't heard of anybody using a full bass trombone slide on tenor in the principal chair, but I'm sure somebody must be doing that somewhere. Is Slide Hampton still using a Bach 50 slide? Craig ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 25 Sep 2002 to 26 Sep 2002 (#2002-75) ****************************************************************