Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 23 Sep 2002 to 24 Sep 2002 (#2002-73) There are 40 messages totalling 1429 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Leadpipes required. 2. a brass quartet web site (4) 3. double trigger D( below staff) is flat (10) 4. Jazz repertory - Society's priorities (5) 5. Repertory jazz (3) 6. Big Band Arr. Of The Simpsons 7. Maplethorpe (was: Society's Priorities) 8. Question (6) 9. concern (4) 10. 11. commercial bass bone players RE: [TBN-L] 12. Commercial players 13. Teaching--What we're really dealing with (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:38:44 +1000 From: M & S Walker Subject: Leadpipes required. G'day all, I'm in the process of re-building some old Elkhart Conn bass trombones. Including building a complete new slide section for a 60H bell section. Anyone out there that might have leapipes from the Conn 6X or 7X series basses that they're willing to part with? Let's talk!! Thanks Matthew Walker Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia Walker's Instrument Repair, "The Brassery" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 23:24:18 -0700 From: "James W. Yardley" Subject: a brass quartet web site Hey everyone. I just finished working on a web site for a brass quartet I play in and I wanted to share it with you all. The address is www.clearwaterbrass.com. You can read the biographies of everyone in the group, listen to a sound clip, and check out our repertoire. Mandatory trombone content? I play bass trombone in the group, and if you listen to the sound clip you can hear me hacking away in the bass voice. I'd love to receive some feedback, so if you have time, please check it out. If you listen to the sound clip, any comments about my playing or the group sound is welcome. Hope to hear from you soon. Take care, James Yardley www.clearwaterbrass.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 05:08:42 -0500 From: Charles Levine Subject: double trigger D( below staff) is flat I have a New Conn 62H horn which is great in every respect, but the D = below the staff in first position is VERY flat. Any suggestions? charlie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 06:11:10 EDT From: SteveInside@AOL.COM Subject: Re: a brass quartet web site In a message dated 24/09/02 07:28:11 GMT Daylight Time, yardlejw@uwec.edu=20 writes: > I just finished working on a web site for a brass quartet I > play in and I wanted to share it with you all.=20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Hey James - THAT is one of the best trombone shots I've seen =E2=80=94 the o= ne with=20 you lying on the ground with the bell and your face looking into the lens. It might not be relevant to anything in particular but I think the trombone=20 is one of the hardest instruments to shoot because it's large but mostly air= .=20 There are very few good shots and everyone seems to struggle with it. See=20 Robin Eubanks with his stretched across a chair, JJ cuddling his or sitting=20 at a table with it lying across the image. Hard to shoot. Possibly all in my head but I think it's one of the things that stops the=20 horn being as widely recognised as the totally cool thing it is. It's harde= r=20 for a hack photographer to make look cool for the masses than, say a trumpet= ,=20 sax or guitar. But as I say =E2=80=94 probably all in my head. Anyway, damn good shot. All the best, Steve C ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 06:40:29 -0700 From: David Guion Subject: Re: Jazz repertory - Society's priorities Steve Beck wrote: >>Well, I am all in favor of this as long as I am the one who gets to chose >>what is art and what is not. > >>I would rather pay for a bunch of cruise missiles than to pay for pictures >>of a crucifix in a jar of urine. Do you remember that? That was art you >>know. > >>Now what would really tickle me would be to buy a cruise missile and blast >>the aforementioned display. Now there is my definition of a smart bomb. And Dave Wilken responded > >Isn¹t this really at the heart of this entire discussion? Who gets to >choose what art should be supported and what should receive none? > >Supposedly, in our society what gets supported is what the majority, >the ³unwashed masses,² if you will, decides should be supported. In the >case of Western society today, this includes pop music, but doesn¹t >include what most of us on this list consider good ³art² music. Who are we >to say that those millions of music fans are wrong? > Those millions of people might shout us down and call us dirty names, like elitist. It may not be politically acceptable for us to say that they are wrong, but their children and grandchildren certainly will say it vehemently! Those generations will follow after different but equally epemeral commercialized music. The audience for any kind of art music will be as small as it is now, but that audience will continue to be moved by the same music that moves the audience for art music today, as well as whatever else is added to the repertoire. I wish I had a better memory of where I read things, but recently I read something to the effect that democratic forms of government are great for developing freedoms, but not so great at fostering great art. It seems that Alexis de Tocqueville noticed that 170 years ago. As I said before, up until about the 1830s, the arts in Europe were nurtured by the so-called nobility, the aristocrats who ran things. I remember studying a document by a 17th-century French author (which I likewise couldn't easily find again) who listed all of the reasons why French music was superior to the Italian music that some people in Paris were beginning to favor. His final reason, the trump card, the totally unanswerable argument was that the king preferred it. In a society ruled by a class of nobles, everyone aspired to be like the nobles. The middle classes (meaning the merchants, craftsmen, professionals, etc. who had a higher social standing than peasants but were excluded from the ruling classes)wanted to be as much like the nobility as possible--which is the point of Moliere's Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme (The Middle Class Gentleman). From the standpoint of the aristocrats, the whole exercise was ridiculous, because they thought they had a monopoly on taste. Today, we realize that taste has nothing to do with how rich or poor you are or what social rank you have. If we can turn off the commercialized pabulum long enough to get people to listen to good music, as many poor people will enjoy it as rich people. The fact remains that most of our art music is a direct descendant of the kinds of music fostered by the nobility. That automatically makes many people suspicious of it. In this context then, one important aspect of Bebop is that a bunch of black people--at a time when racism was not only more virulent than it is now, but quite respectable--preferred to be regarded not as entertainers but as artists whose music deserved to be listened to for its own sake. Like Beethoven before them, they both demanded and commanded respect. In effect, they declared themselves the musical aristocracy and forced the musical world to accept them as such. And what is the result? Jazz has become as small a "niche market" as chamber music or opera. (Only an overly commercialized society would ever dream up that phrase!) There seems to be a wide-spread assumption that excellence is antidemocratic, that if mediocrity is good enough for most people (which it always has been, is, and always will be), then it should be good enough for all people. With so many people aspiring to become rich and so few aspiring to become noble (in any sense of the term), developing an appreciation of artistic excellence may seem like a distraction from the goal rather than as a means of achieving anything worthwhile. So how can those of us who know or care about excellence (in music or anything else) keep from getting steamrolled by those whose profits come from stifling it? > >I don't have any good answers, only tough questions. > Ditto -- *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* David Guion Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? david@trombone.org *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* -- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:12:33 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Repertory jazz >At 01:49 PM 9/17/2002 -0400, sabutin wrote: >> Get the money together to hire ALL the right players and treat >>them w/the same respect as is tendered to those in even a second >>level symphony...30 week seasons, medical insurance, a steady gig >>w/tenure...and make sure the leader isn't some megalomaniacal ass, >>and the music will happen. > >I certainly agree with your sentiments, but I do wonder if that is to mix >apples and oranges historically. I mean, today's symphony orchestras are >overwhelmingly repertory outfits. The percentage of new music they perform >is so small as to not be a significant factor. That's not a criticism -- >simply a statement of their business model. In order to make an existence, >these companies have to please a body of high-income society types, and >that isn't the demographic that enjoys challenging new compositions, >generally speaking. > >My question is, naively asked, is whether it was ever really any >different. Was it ever really easy for a progressive composer to get his >music performed? Have composers been fighting the repertory inertia forever? > >I agree that it would be neat to have a well funded operation to take large >ensemble jazz forward aggressively. But the same thing could be said for >symphonic music. > >Just some ramblings, >Craig ================= Beethoven quote, referring to his problems producing his (new) music: "The amount of money one needs is terrifying." As far as the inevitable conservatism that goes along w/money...that's the dues one has to pay; that's the trick of it all. It's true that contemporary symphony orchestras (as they have been set up through most of the 20th Century...quasi-governmental arts foundations supported by the moneyed establishment) rarely produce new music. But...they do produce some, and have done so enough to continue the tradition through Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok, Schoenberg, Berio, Boulez, et al. Sure they play Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms and so on 98% of the time. That is what people want to attend. I do not say "hear" because I do not think many of the actual attendees "hear" much of what's going on in symphony concerts. It just washes over them, and the music's real function for most of them is to reassure them that everything's alright, that the status quo as they understand it...the house in the suburbs, the two cars. the country club the retirement fund...remains safely undisturbed, a natural and inevitable consequence of the glorious march of Western Civilization. They hear the eternally broke, wild-eyed, lead poisoned revolutionary Beethoven..."Tah tah tah Taaaahhh"...at the distance of 170 years, and magically transmute him into their friendly local banker's mildly odd cousin who lives in Scarsdale and raises pet skunks. But there are so many orchestras, so many performances, so much money (millions and millions...hundreds of millions, worldwide, billions and billions over the space of 100 or so years), hat new music survives and the idiom continues to grow despite the audience's monetary and social preoccupations. Ahhh, sweet mystery of Life. You ask "Have composers been fighting the repertory inertia forever?" Artists in every idiom have been fighting social and cultural inertia forever. Shakespeare, Van Gogh, Charlie Parker, Palestrina...the very mass of society provides the (entirely necessary) gravity that keeps things grounded; artists provide the lift that stops us from being eternally pinned to the ground by that gravity. The very first line of the Aphorisms of Hippocrates states "Ars longa, vita brevis". (The Roman poet Horace's translation of the line into Latin.) Hippocrates was apparently referring to the length of time it takes to learn medicine and the relative shortness of a human lifetime, but this idea has survived 2500 years because it has been taken in a much broader sense. "Art is long, life is short." If civilizations take the long view, then they themselves live long and prosper. Short view...and that is where we are now, in many respects...then life (and by extension the life of a society) becomes, in the words of the 17th century English philosopher and mathematician Thomas Hobbes "...no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." This is not exactly a new train of thought, here...the best minds of mankind have been saying similar things for 25 centuries at least, and you can bet Hippocrates was well versed in history back through Egypt and Babylonia. He was certainly familiar w/the work of Pythagoras, who studied extensively in Egypt. 40 centuries. 50 centuries. More... I can see it now...some cave dweller discovers that he can tune his bow, use a drum as a resonator and make music with it, and he has to fight the rulers of his tribe because they find the noise "disturbing". Two or three generations later, the newest chief is enthroned to the accompaniment of a bow orchestra. Has it been like this forever? You bet. As ever, it's up to us. Later... S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:44:58 -0300 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: double trigger D( below staff) is flat At 05:08 AM 09/24/2002 -0500, Charles Levine wrote: >I have a New Conn 62H horn which is great in every respect, but the D >below the staff in first position is VERY flat. Any suggestions? > >charlie Don't play D in first position. If the second trigger is tuned to play a Gb or Db in tune (with the second trigger alone), then the low D will likely be flat if using both triggers in first. I definitely tune my triggers to get the Gb and Db right. For me, that is far more important than being able to play low D in first position. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:46:21 +0000 From: alan partis Subject: Re: Jazz repertory - Society's priorities At 06:40 AM 09/24/2002, David Guion wrote: >So how can those of us who know or care about excellence (in music or >anything else) keep from getting steamrolled by those whose profits come >from stifling it? You only get steam rolled if you allow yourself to be steam rolled. I've seen it said here and in many other places: when somebody, namely people like Ken Gorlick, "sell out" they are getting steam rolled, but notice we don't say that Kenny G _got_ sold out, we say instead that _he_ sold out meaning that it's up to the artist. I've said it here before, I am a musician for my own enjoyment and I suspect that very few of our fellow listers are as well. Few people are musicians against their better judgement just to make a living at something at which they excel. On the contrary, most artists choose to be artists for the satisfaction it brings to them. If they are very good and happen to make some money in the process then so be it, but most of us aren't in that upper echelon and we're not in it for the money. The nice thing about most arts is that the cost of entry for an artist is very low -- the only real investment required is time and passion. Don't worry, as long as there are principled artists among us, the arts won't ever die. If the "unwashed masses" don't participate, it's their loss, not mine and I'm not so arrogant as to think that I know what's best for them -- I'm lucky if I can make the right choices for me let alone anyone else. I DO know what's best for me and I choose to make music and enjoy the music of others. My role in life then is to live my life true to myself, teach my children, and maybe influence one or two others to maintain or elevate their principles. If I can do that, I'll be a huge success in life. If _everyone_ did that, the results would be monumentally staggering. ______________________________________ alan partis, amateur bonehead louisville, ky ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 10:05:53 -0500 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Subject: Re: double trigger D( below staff) is flat Charles Levine wrote: > I have a New Conn 62H horn which is great in every respect, but the D below the staff in first position is VERY flat. Any suggestions? > Charlie, If you're going to play D in first, it sounds like you're going to have to have the D slide shortened a little. Did they make it too long, or are the other 2nd valve notes in tune? Eric ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:04:25 +0000 From: alan partis Subject: Re: Jazz repertory - Society's priorities I wrote previously: >I've said it here before, I am a musician for my own enjoyment and I >suspect that very few of our fellow listers are as well. I meant to say: I've said it here before, I am a musician for my own enjoyment and I suspect that most of our fellow listers are as well. Sorry for the confusion. ______________________________________ alan partis, amateur bonehead louisville, ky ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:24:18 EDT From: JFBermann@AOL.COM Subject: Big Band Arr. Of The Simpsons Good Morning Everyone, I'm in need of a big band arrangement of The Simpsons. Both published arrangements are POP, permanently out of print, the Paul Lavender and John Berry versions. I've checked with the publisher and music houses to see if by chance they may have a stray copy, but had no luck. Any HELP! would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!, Jim Bermann ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:32:46 -0700 From: Gary Sloane Subject: Re: Maplethorpe (was: Society's Priorities) A few years ago, Howie Mandel had a TV series in which he played the undertaker (I think -- or maybe he was the medical examiner) in "the 13th largest city in Ohio". So he's sitting at the breakfast table, reading the morning paper and muttering over and over again under his breath, each time with more anger and passion, "Maplethorpe. Maplethorpe! MAPLETHORPE!" His lovely sit-com wife walks into the room with a plate of pancakes, throws it in front of him and says, "Here's your damn breakfast. You don't have to yell about it." Mandatory trombone content: I own many too many authentic, "period" trombones. If you need one, contact me off the list. -- Gary Sloane "Never take anyone's advice." sloane@batnet.com --George Bernard Shaw ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:55:01 -0700 From: Daryl Burch Subject: Re: a brass quartet web site Excellent recording on the MP3. Good quality, clean & good file size. Hope you get a bunch o' work out of it! Daryl Burch www.radionoise.com At 11:24 PM 9/23/2002 -0700, James W. Yardley wrote: >Hey everyone. I just finished working on a web site for a brass quartet I >play in and I wanted to share it with you all. The address is >www.clearwaterbrass.com. You can read the biographies of everyone in the >group, listen to a sound clip, and check out our repertoire. Mandatory >trombone content? I play bass trombone in the group, and if you listen to >the sound clip you can hear me hacking away in the bass voice. I'd love to >receive some feedback, so if you have time, please check it out. If you >listen to the sound clip, any comments about my playing or the group sound >is welcome. Hope to hear from you soon. > >Take care, >James Yardley > >www.clearwaterbrass.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:00:57 EST From: Art Triggs Subject: Re: double trigger D( below staff) is flat The 62-h is a dependant valve bass, unless they have come out with an inline already, if the low d is flat in first, and you and it sharper, you may have to get the d slide shortened, I would check the intonation of the other partials, and base your decision to cut on how the other partials play. When I used a dependant d tuned instrument, I tuned the "d" slide to get a minor third lower in tune in a flat 4th position, so the slide position for low b would line up with the low d,(very convenient at the time) I also removed the corks and added a spring in the cork barrels of the slide so I could pull up any first position note if needed, otherwise there wasn't a lot of room to adjust. I would play it a while before you do any cutting, if you just got it, you are still getting used to it, the way it feels when you play it may change after a couple of weeks. Just another opinion, your mileage may vary,hope that helps... Art Triggs >At 05:08 AM 09/24/2002 -0500, Charles Levine wrote: >>I have a New Conn 62H horn which is great in every respect, but the D >>below the staff in first position is VERY flat. Any suggestions? >> >>charlie > >Don't play D in first position. > >If the second trigger is tuned to play a Gb or Db in tune (with the second >trigger alone), then the low D will likely be flat if using both triggers >in first. I definitely tune my triggers to get the Gb and Db right. For >me, that is far more important than being able to play low D in first position. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:09:11 -0400 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: double trigger D( below staff) is flat Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but Art Triggs > I would play > it a while before you do any cutting, if you just got it, you are still > getting > used to it, the way it feels when you play it may change after a couple of > weeks. The best advice yet! Knowing Art for nigh these many years, and still admitting it in public, I will have to point out that Art has put together numerous Frankenbones, and would not hesitate to chop up a horn until it suited his preferences. When he was on the road with "Dancin'", he would go back to his hotel, totally reconfigure the valve tubing, then play it on the gig the next day. So, when I tell you that Art, who likely carries a hacksaw and torch in his Jeep, recommends getting used to the horn first, strikes me as being pretty solid advice. I think that Sam will back me up on this, too- it only takes a week or two to tell if a horn is any good, but it takes a LOT longer to learn how to play it to its fullest potential. Walter Barrett "Do we really want to know HOW Michael Jackson makes his music? NO. We want to understand why he needs the bones of the Elephant Man‹and, until he tells us, it doesn¹t make too much difference whether or not he really is ³bad.²" -Frank Zappa Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:49:13 -0300 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: double trigger D( below staff) is flat At 01:09 PM 09/24/2002 -0400, Walter Barrett wrote: >it only takes a week or two >to tell if a horn is any good, but it takes a LOT longer to learn how to >play it to its fullest potential. True, but are you suggesting that the intonation will change? If a person is supporting the notes and blowing to the center of the slot, I don't see how this will change much, unless one switches to a different mouthpiece. If the horn is pushing up against the bumpers with both trigger slides all the way in, then I'd say go ahead and take 1/2" off the second loop. If your pitch does change a little in a few weeks or months, you can simply pull the trigger slide a little. No problem. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:59:44 EST From: Art Triggs Subject: Re: double trigger D( below staff) is flat Gawsh.....hahahaha, sorry Wally I don't keep a torch in my jeep, even though I am working on an onboard air compressor and welding rig, I do carry a 4ton portable winch and a high lift jack though, not that THAT has anything to do with playing the bass trombone.(well maybe for slide alignments ;-0 ) ummm, oops sorry Mr. Monitor....mandatory trombone content..... I have assembled a few instruments over the last -- (ahem) years, some better than others. Here is what didn't get mentioned in Wally's post..........if I did learn anything out all, it was that yes, you can try new stuff, and you should pick and choose very carefully where you try your new stuff. Also,common sense dictates that if you just laid out a couple of thousand for a brand new axe, learn how to play it first, then, when you are REAL comfortable with it, and know what it is you want to do , then try out some different things. Good Luck Art Triggs "real bass trombones are built, not bought" >Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but Art Triggs > >> I would play >> it a while before you do any cutting, if you just got it, you are still >> getting >> used to it, the way it feels when you play it may change after a couple o>f >> weeks. > >The best advice yet! Knowing Art for nigh these many years, and still >admitting it in public, I will have to point out that Art has put together >numerous Frankenbones, and would not hesitate to chop up a horn until it >suited his preferences. When he was on the road with "Dancin'", he would go >back to his hotel, totally reconfigure the valve tubing, then play it on th>e >gig the next day. > >So, when I tell you that Art, who likely carries a hacksaw and torch in his >Jeep, recommends getting used to the horn first, strikes me as being pretty >solid advice. > >I think that Sam will back me up on this, too- it only takes a week or two >to tell if a horn is any good, but it takes a LOT longer to learn how to >play it to its fullest potential. > >Walter Barrett > >"Do we really want to know HOW Michael Jackson makes his music? NO. We want >to understand why he needs the bones of the Elephant Man‹and, until he tell>s >us, it doesn¹t make too much difference whether or not he really is ³bad.²" > -Frank Zappa > > >Yamaha Artist/Clinician >Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones >Euphonium >Bass Trumpet >Tuba > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:21:54 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: double trigger D( below staff) is flat > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE- > L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Craig Parmerlee > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 12:49 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] double trigger D( below staff) is flat > > At 01:09 PM 09/24/2002 -0400, Walter Barrett wrote: > > >it only takes a week or two > >to tell if a horn is any good, but it takes a LOT longer to learn how to > >play it to its fullest potential. > > True, but are you suggesting that the intonation will change? Absolutely. The way you play the horn will change as you quit trying to make it do what your last horn did, and start learning what this horn does. It is quite possible that his last horn played sharp, but he subconsciously just lipped that note down. Now on the new one, he still lips the note down, but that just makes it flat. I am not saying that is the case, but it is a very plausible explanation. It is a brand new top line pro instrument, I really doubt that is requires major alterations just to do its basic job. Let it settle in, learn how to play that particular horn, it will most likely work itself out. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 18:20:42 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Jazz repertory - Society's priorities >--at a time when racism was not only more virulent than it is now, but >quite respectable-- As someone who moved from Oakland to Silicon Valley, I’m going to have to disagree. I’d say that racism is as virulent as ever. It’s no longer PC, in most circles, but it’s alive and well. It’s more subtle, but the opportunities still aren’t there for people of color. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:01:28 -0500 From: Shaun Hillen Subject: Question Hi, I was curious about the makeup of the list. How many of you are band or orchestra directors in a school setting? I teach high school band. --Shaun ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:05:30 EDT From: Dslide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Jazz repertory - Society's priorities In a message dated 9/24/02 2:22:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 daniel_pliskin@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > I=E2=80=99d say that racism is as virulent as ever. It=E2=80=99s no longe= r PC, in most > circles, but it=E2=80=99s alive and well. It=E2=80=99s more subtle, but t= he opportunities > still aren=E2=80=99t there for people of color. >=20 > DanP >=20 >=20 I think it depends on where you live. I agree that racism is as present as=20 ever. I grew up in the South. When I moved to the Northeast, I noticed a=20 more aggressive attitude coming from people of color than there was in the=20 South. I also noticed a more covert approach to racism by whites in the=20 Northeast. I would describe the situation as covert vs. overt. Whites are=20 overt in the South and covert in the Northeast. People of color are covert=20 in the South and overt in the Northeast. But, the attitudes exist=20 everywhere. The only hope I have is for my daughter's generation. I=20 understand that you can't legislate morality, but if it is unpopular to be a= =20 racist then it must be done in private. If most children don't see it, then= =20 maybe they won't be directly influenced by it. The indirect influence will=20 still be there, by way of missing opportunities for some....but maybe her=20 generation can deal with that and eliminate most racist practices. Now=20 prejudice is probably something that we're stuck with. But I would take it=20 in a heartbeat over racism. David Gibson dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:09:29 EST From: Art Triggs Subject: Re: double trigger D( below staff) is flat hmmmm(thinking to myself...this could get interesting) Originally I suggested that he should get used to his new axe before he does anything to it, how long it takes to do this would be up to the player and how it feels to them, that would be different for each and every one of us. It is POSSIBLE that as he gets used to this axe yes the center of his pitches may change a little bit, again it has a lot to do with how the instrument feels when you play it, his intonation may change a bit, again different for everyone,as far as "supporting the notes, and playing in the slot" for me these terms are vague, and leave a lot of room for interpretation(or imagination) (ummm, no put down intended, they just don't work for me...)again I will state very simply, play it for a while before you cut it. How long, for what reason, are all up to the player, you , me, Wally, anyone else, are all different, what may work real well for me, you may hate, and vice versa....it really IS that simple.(To me at least) >At 01:09 PM 09/24/2002 -0400, Walter Barrett wrote: > >>it only takes a week or two >>to tell if a horn is any good, but it takes a LOT longer to learn how to >>play it to its fullest potential. > >True, but are you suggesting that the intonation will change? If a person >is supporting the notes and blowing to the center of the slot, I don't see >how this will change much, unless one switches to a different >mouthpiece. If the horn is pushing up against the bumpers with both >trigger slides all the way in, then I'd say go ahead and take 1/2" off the >second loop. If your pitch does change a little in a few weeks or months, >you can simply pull the trigger slide a little. No problem. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 12:10:41 -0700 From: Steve Gamble Subject: Re: Question X Jr. Hi band dir. Steve Gamble, Librarian Tucson Symphony Orchestra 2175 N. 6th Ave. Tucson, AZ 85705 sgamble@tucsonsymphony.org 520-792-9155 x118 520-792-9314 fax 520-991-7056 cel -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Shaun Hillen Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 12:01 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] Question Hi, I was curious about the makeup of the list. How many of you are band or orchestra directors in a school setting? I teach high school band. --Shaun ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:27:03 -0500 From: "Michael B. McCreless" Subject: concern I wonder if any of you older bass trombonists are having trouble with their extreme low range, such as pedal c and double pedal Bflat. Michael Mc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:26:42 EDT From: ALFORDMB@AOL.COM Subject: Re: a brass quartet web site In a message dated 09/24/2002 6:12:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, SteveInside@AOL.COM writes: > Possibly all in my head but I think it's one of the things that stops the > horn being as widely recognised as the totally cool thing it is. It's > harder > for a hack photographer to make look cool for the masses than, say a trumpet, > > sax or guitar. --------------------- That, plus you can't lean back on a sofa or easy chair, or against the wall for a cool shot and still blow the dang thing. ;-) cheers, Mike Alford ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:35:21 -0500 From: "Michael B. McCreless" Subject: Question Hello, ex High School band director. Most of my private students are still high school and middle school. Michael bassbone_mike@alumni.jsu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:28:39 -0400 From: "Kevin A. Fleming" Subject: Hello all. I am a Master's student in Pittsburgh, and I'm currently = researching commercial bass trombone players. We all know some of the = classics like George Roberts and Bill Reichenbach, but I'm looking for = names of some other people. Any names would be helpful--doubly so if = you could include who they played with/dates/albums/etc. All input would be greatly appreciated. Kevin Fleming Give me temperance and celibacy, but not yet! -St. Augustine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:51:31 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: commercial bass bone players RE: [TBN-L] Tommy Mitchell - all of the Miles & Gil stuff among other things Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE- > L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Kevin A. Fleming > Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 2:29 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] > > Hello all. I am a Master's student in Pittsburgh, and I'm currently > researching commercial bass trombone players. We all know some of the > classics like George Roberts and Bill Reichenbach, but I'm looking for > names of some other people. Any names would be helpful--doubly so if you > could include who they played with/dates/albums/etc. > > > All input would be greatly appreciated. > Kevin Fleming > > > Give me temperance and celibacy, but not yet! > -St. Augustine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 16:05:35 EST From: Art Triggs Subject: Re: concern Nope,;-) >I wonder if any of you older bass trombonists are having trouble with their >extreme low range, such as pedal c and double pedal Bflat. >Michael Mc > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:07:29 -0400 From: Dave Wank Subject: Re: Question High school band director many years ago! Dave Wank I was curious about the makeup of the list. How many of you are band or orchestra directors in a school setting? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:25:46 -0700 From: Jerry Blomberg Subject: Re: Question I was a high school band director from 1963 to 1969. Jerry Blomberg Temple City, CA -------Original Message------- From: Dave Wank Date: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 02:10:04 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Question High school band director many years ago! Dave Wank I was curious about the makeup of the list. How many of you are band or orchestra directors in a school setting? . ------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month! Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:38:41 -0400 From: Chuck De Paolo Subject: Re: concern I think there's a prescription drug on the market for that now, starts = with "v" and sounds like "Niagara." =20 Oops, ;-) --Chuck ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michael B. McCreless=20 To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU=20 Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 3:27 PM Subject: [TBN-L] concern I wonder if any of you older bass trombonists are having trouble with = their extreme low range, such as pedal c and double pedal Bflat. Michael Mc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 16:41:50 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: double trigger D( below staff) is flat At 03:09 PM 9/24/2002 -0500, Art Triggs wrote: >as >far as "supporting the notes, and playing in the slot" for me these terms are >vague, and leave a lot of room for interpretation(or imagination) Supporting the notes: Provide enough air pressure and flow so that the lips can immediately vibrate a clear, unwavering pitch that doesn't sound as if there is a bag over the bell Playing in the slot (actually I said blow to the "center" of the slot): Playing the pitch that occurs when the lips are most "unstressed", natural, and comfortable, neither lipping down nor up. If a person does these two things, I don't see where the pitch is likely to change much over time. Of course, it may take a person a few months to get around to doing these two things, but there is no reason why a person can't concentrate on doing that from the first hour with the horn. Cheers, CP ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 20:23:57 -0400 From: Denver Seifried Subject: Re: Question I was a middle school/high school band director from 1964-1995. Retired in July of 1995. Denny Seifried Bass Trombone-Springfield (OH) Symphony & Dayton Jazz Orchestra Adjunct Trombone-Wittenberg Univ. Dept. of Music ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:07:46 -0400 From: john burton Subject: Re: concern Nope... Unless I'm not "older"..... --==jb==-- -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael B. McCreless Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 3:27 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] concern I wonder if any of you older bass trombonists are having trouble with their extreme low range, such as pedal c and double pedal Bflat. Michael Mc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:47:06 -0400 From: "Kevin A. Fleming" Subject: Commercial players Thanks for all the help I've received so far in my never-ending search = for commercial bass trombone players. I'm still looking for names of people, though. =20 If anyone has any biographical/discographical (there's a ten-dollar = word!) information for any of the following people, please let me know: Mark Lusk Don Waldrop Rich Bullock George West Also, if anyone has a compiled discography for Dave Taylor or Doug = Purviance, I'd appreciate it. Kevin Fleming Give me temperance and celibacy, but not yet! -St. Augustine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:23:55 -0500 From: Robert Holland Subject: Re: Repertory jazz Sabutin wrote: > Sure they play Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms and so on 98% of the > time. That is what people want to attend. I do not say "hear" because > I do not think many of the actual attendees "hear" much of what's > going on in symphony concerts. It just washes over them, and the > music's real function for most of them is to reassure them that > everything's alright, that the status quo as they understand it...the > house in the suburbs, the two cars. the country club the retirement > fund...remains safely undisturbed, a natural and inevitable > consequence of the glorious march of Western Civilization. That is so very patronizing. The rest of the post bothers me only a little, but to equate symphony concerts with emotional salve really says more about the writer of those words than the audience of symphony concerts. We've had threads before on what (we believe) the audience hears and/or experiences, and many of us agree that audiences may hear far less than we perhaps do, especially those of us who are highly trained and professional. That needn't be the object of our scorn, however. Maybe instead we ought to view it as a mission. Robert Holland Briar Music Press briar@chicagonet.net http://members.aol.com/EnsPub/bmp.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:53:17 -0400 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." Subject: Teaching--What we're really dealing with Dear list colleagues, This subject has been on my mind for quite some time. I consider myself to be a quite reverent private teacher, and the students I teach that do what I tell them turn out to be rather successful. I've been doing this now for about 8 years, and this is what I've observed (generally speaking). I would most certainly welcome any comments on each of these points. 1) There is a serious lack of individual responsibility. I'm not talking about an occasional mishap here and there. I'm talking about students who really haven't defined in their own minds why they want to take lessons in the first place. They may take a few lessons and just drop out of the clear blue sky, or they may be quite faithful in attending lessons, but the lesson is so haphazardly prepared that the previous lesson must be taught all over again. No matter how much you demonstrate the correct way to play, and also demonstrate the correct way to practice, very little or no progress seems to be made. Some students completely forget to even show up for lessons. 2) There is a serious lack of commitment to learn to play the horn as well as they can play. This falls right in line with the first point. Many students that I have encountered over the past 8 years have never had to work to achieve even a mediocre level of achievement in ANYTHING. Many of these students do very well in school, but the standard for academic excellence has been so watered down that someone with just average intelligence and average tenacity can make an A. So, when it comes to studying the trombone, they apply the same standard to that as they do to their academic studies. 3) There is a serious breakdown in the student/teacher relationship. I'm constantly amazed at the students who, at such at young age, are so opinionated concerning music and the trombone that I have to ask myself (and them, sometimes) "If you know so much about the trombone and about how to make music, then why are you even here taking lessons?" Many times, they are inwardly (and sometimes outwardly) defiant to anything that the teacher has to say about anything. I can remember when I started taking lessons, I adopted the attitude that I was the student, my teacher was the teacher, and I was there to learn as much as I possibly could from him. I very rarely see this kind of submission anymore. 4) Many students embrace this attitude that it is all right to adopt an attitude that it's OK to be a "jack of all trades, master of none." Many students play sports, become active in their church, have to deal with their academic studies, take lessons on another instrument, take dance, baton twirling, belong to other organizations such as Scouts, in addition to taking trombone lessons, and I have to wonder: "When do they have time to practice the trombone?" They're involved in so many things that it's literally impossible to focus on anything for any length of time. I personally deal with some very intelligent students, but they're "tied up" in so many things that there's absolutely no way to excel at ANYTHING. Many students think that it is OK to do as many things as possible and be mediocre at all of them instead of choosing a couple of disciplines and really do them well. Personally, I am going to have to deal with each of these issues with a number of my students and just let them know what I expect in no uncertain terms. Before I take on any new students, I will have to make sure that each student knows what I expect out of them. My best students, I believe, would testify to the fact that if they will just do the best that they can do, and meet me halfway, that I'll be more than fair with them. Is anyone else out there dealing with these issues? Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:56:45 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Repertory jazz yeah people go to museums to look at the same painting or sculpture over and over again ----performers often do their big hits all of their lives familiarity is not a bad thing -----new is good sometimes too but people like to eat newstuff sometimes but dont change the formula for coke ------ good music offers a lifelong challenge --trying to perform it to a level which is transcendent ------ classical cats who had played the same piece 50 times - you get into the groove ----and it swings !!!!!!!the audience knows the piece too so its very cool experience the nuances --- you pop the cork on that 1937 - after motoring over in the drophead coupe well attired ---the swankness of fastening those studs ................ Robert Holland wrote: > Sabutin wrote: > > > Sure they play Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms and so on 98% of the > > time. That is what people want to attend. I do not say "hear" because > > I do not think many of the actual attendees "hear" much of what's > > going on in symphony concerts. It just washes over them, and the > > music's real function for most of them is to reassure them that > > everything's alright, that the status quo as they understand it...the > > house in the suburbs, the two cars. the country club the retirement > > fund...remains safely undisturbed, a natural and inevitable > > consequence of the glorious march of Western Civilization. > > That is so very patronizing. The rest of the post bothers me only a little, > but to equate symphony concerts with emotional salve really says more about > the writer of those words than the audience of symphony concerts. > > We've had threads before on what (we believe) the audience hears and/or > experiences, and many of us agree that audiences may hear far less than we > perhaps do, especially those of us who are highly trained and professional. > That needn't be the object of our scorn, however. Maybe instead we ought to > view it as a mission. > > Robert Holland > Briar Music Press > briar@chicagonet.net > http://members.aol.com/EnsPub/bmp.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 04:36:12 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Teaching--What we're really dealing with > 1) There is a serious lack of individual responsibility. > 2) There is a serious lack of commitment to learn to play the horn as >well as they can play. > 3) There is a serious breakdown in the student/teacher relationship. > 4) Many students embrace this attitude that it is all right to adopt >an attitude that it's OK to be a "jack of all trades, master of none." >Is anyone else out there dealing with these issues? I’d say I deal with it every time there are kids at my house. You see, we don’t watch TV, so we don’t have an antenna and don’t have cable or a satellite. If we didn’t occasionally watch movies, we wouldn’t have a TV at all. So when kids are over at the house, they can’t believe that they’re not going to be able to watch their favorite show. Further, they can’t imagine what else there is to do, other than watching TV. They don’t read, they don’t play games (other than video games, and although I’m quite famous for my roll in the development of early video games, I don’t own any), they don’t talk with each other or with adults. Add to that a dose of hormones and adults aren’t nearly cool enough to waste time being with, other than that we can drive them places and that we’re responsible for bringing home food. But let me rant about the cool factor, for a bit. When the hormones hit, kids do whatever it takes to be identified with a clan. Whatever that clan does is cool and everything else isn’t. It doesn’t matter of what’s cool is having your pants around your knees or wearing biker shorts. Since you can’t wear both biker shorts and have your pants down to your knees, you’re going to be uncool, to most kids, no matter what you do. There are also events that need to be attended, in order to be cool. For some that involves being on the football team and for others it involves hanging out at a particular fast-food joint. No matter what it is that’s considered cool, unless that event just happens to be playing in the band, practicing trombone is bound to conflict with doing what’s cool. I gave up piano lessons, because they conflicted with playing lacrosse. At the time, there was no question that quitting piano was the right move. It wasn’t until I got to college and realized that I’d probably never play lacrosse again, that I realized what I had lost. But as I said, there are lots of groups that are considered cool, so maybe there’s hope. What if you and all the rest of the music teachers in your area got together and worked out a set of pieces/tunes that are cool and all teachers got their students to learn those pieces/tunes? Then music students could get together and be cool, together. Where I studied music, it was a set of tunes from The Real Book. We had our own little clique and we played jazz together, in small groups. Create another way for serious music students to be cool among themselves and you’ve got kids who want to practice, want to learn their instruments. If you don’t believe me, check out how many successful young jazz musicians have come out of Berkeley high school. DanP _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 23 Sep 2002 to 24 Sep 2002 (#2002-73) ****************************************************************