Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 15 Sep 2002 to 16 Sep 2002 (#2002-65) There are 44 messages totalling 1819 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. What first interested YOU in the trombone? (11) 2. valve trombone (7) 3. CHARLIE TURNER/NELSON RIDDLE ARRANGEMENTS 4. OTJ Classifieds Update - 9/16/02 5. more valve trombone 6. [TL]Re: What first interested YOU in the trombone? 7. A hundred years from now/valve trombone 8. Glenn Miller question (5) 9. Get the right tool for the job (was Re; valve trombone) (3) 10. Oktoberfest in Utah 11. Bell ring pitch ? (was Re: [TBN-L] 8th partial Ab) (2) 12. Trombone web survey (3) 13. Amusing story, was Re: valve trombone 14. Bam Bach fit (2) 15. repertory jazz was RE: [TBN-L] Get the right tool for the job (was Re; valve trombone) 16. repertory jazz was RE: [TBN-L] Get the right tool for the job (was Re; valve trombone) 17. Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] repertory jazz was RE: [TBN-L] Get the right tool for the job (was Re; valve trombone) 18. repertory jazz was Get the right tool for the job ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 02:40:47 -0400 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." Subject: Re: What first interested YOU in the trombone? Dear List, I've told that story on my website, and I won't go into all of the details, but there were several main events in my young life that really put me on the straight and narrow. Getting interested in the horn is one thing: have the desire to really excel at it is something else entirely. I feel that in order to do that, you need the inspiration of someone who really plays well. The first was when my band director got a private teacher for all 4 of us in the trombone section. Dave Summers. Man, WHAT A SOUND. At that time he played a Bach 50B2 with a Schilke 59 mouthpiece. Just to hear him anchor down the bottom of a trombone quartet was a real treat. The next event was to hear a real tenor trombone player in the flesh, and that was Glenn Dodson. He did an all day master class at Shenandoah College and Conservatory in Winchester, VA on Easter Monday, 1977. He started at 9 that morning and played until 9 that night. What a sound !!! He had a top end that was simply unbelievable. Anyone who has heard him live, even now, can verify that I'm telling the truth. The next was a couple of years later--the first time I heard Charlie Vernon. He played Blue Topaz, which is a bass trombone concerto by Tommy Pederson with a 6 trombone accompaniment. Again, it was the SOUND that was coming out of that bell that just held me captive. The next was in 1985 When I first heard Harry Maddox. Again, same story. So, as a teacher, I try my best to provide the best example that I can to my students. The only difference now is that 25+ years ago, there weren't that many solo trombone recordings out--now, with the invention of the CD, there are more great trombone artists to listen to that are readily available to anyone who has the desire to become a very good player. Teaching has gotten better, the internet is out there, more good players, and better instruments are also out there as well. There is absolutely no excuse for someone not excelling at becoming a good player these days. Sadly enough though, despite the enthusiasm that a teacher can have for the trombone, it seems to become more and more difficult to get the younger generation to COMMIT to the hard work that it takes. For over 500 years, it hasn't been easy. In fact, I sincerely believe that in order for anything to be truly great, there has to be different levels of complexity that require mastery of the basic levels of competence in order to be successful at that skill, and playing the trombone definitely qualifies as one of those things. Playing the trombone on a high level, no matter what genre of music is involved, requires mastery of fundamentals until they can be relegated to the subconscious and the art of music making can be concentrated on more completely. That takes work, and it seems that the older I get, the more things I have to work on. But that is what keeps me going. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Galen Tieszen" To: Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] What first interested YOU in the trombone? > My story isn't THAT interesting, but here goes. > > My father was a teacher, so as a very young child (probably about 3 or 4 > years old), I went to a basketball game and saw the "pep" band play. The > thing that interested me the most was that kid who kept swollowing that > piece of pipe. Darn thing kept going in an out of his mouth and down his > throat!!-- just COULDN'T figure it out!! (remember -- 3 or 4 years old!). I > went home and discovered that an adjustable curtine-rod made a nice > substitute so I pretended -- (didn't swollow the curtine-rod though.) > > When I finished third grade my folks gave me a used Elkhart Pan Am for my > birthday, so now I had a REAL horn. (Interesting, that I noticed one of the > other Galen's -- there are 3 of us on the list -- started with a Pan Am > also.) Took lessons during the summer, then had to wait a semester before > "beginning" band started after Christmas. > > Jr High arrived, and since I was the biggest kid in band, and since the band > had no Tuba player, I too became a multi-instrument specialist. Played > Sousaphone through Jr High, HATED marching!! > > High school was next, and since the old Pan Am was kind of beat up, I asked > about using a school horn. Now don't cry, but my choices were and 88H or a > 72H. I got the 72H. Really liked that horn, and I really liked playing the > 4th part in band, and stage band. > > Now on to college. Had to leave the 72H behind, but got a large bore, > single rotor King. Don't recall the model, but I just didn't like it as > well as the 72H. I did have the oppertunity though to purchase an > immaculate 72H from an instrumental instructor for $350 (1973 price) since > he was getting, I think a 62H? (double rotor bass). But since I used my > playing more for relaxation and enjoyment, and since it might as well have > been $350,000 to a college student, I passed. > > I frequently wished I had a decent bass to mess around with over the years, > but the price was always too high, and I just couldn't justify spending so > much on something that would get so little use, so I did without until last > spring when I found an Olds S-20 in an antique shop and got it for $90. > Sent it to the Slide Dr. and now I can play in church, or community band. > Sure feels good to play again. > > Really enjoy postings from the list -- keep it up. > > Galen Tieszen > Wellington, KS > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:26:23 +0100 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: valve trombone From: "Nick Walenczak" > Let's just say that there's good reason why you rarely see a valve trombone in a sympnoic orhestra, ne? Probably the same reason why you rarely (if at all) see a cornet, flugelhorn, tenor saxhorn, baritone, euphonium, trombonium, flugabone, superbone, sousaphone, saxophone, bagpipes, harmonica, jazz rhythm section, sitar, zither, pan pipes, kazoo, didgeridoo, synthesizer, fuzz guitar/bass (....the list goes on forever) in a "sympnoic orhestra", but there is absolutely no reason why a symphonic composer should not write for any, or in fact all, of them, if he/she is looking for a descriptive colour or mood that cannot be attained by the standard instrumentation. I would certainly enjoy listening to Bob Brookmeyer soloing in a symphonic setting. > I took over a place in a summer group not too long ago from a valve trombonist. She was reading the bass trombone part on her small bore valve T-bone. Perhaps it sounds better in a higher register... but in my range > it's the most grotesque, unflattering sound you've ever heard. Well of course it would sound better in a higher register. It's not designed to play the bass line. The bass trombone would have the most grotesque, unflattering sound if it was played permanently in the high tenor/alto register. I'm sorry, but I cannot abide with valve 'bone bashing. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:50:10 +0100 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: What first interested YOU in the trombone? From: > So many reasons that cannot be fully expressed with words, but this reason > sums it up best for me: > > "George Roberts" Hey now, wait a minute. George Roberts' 'bone has a valve. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 05:44:36 -0500 From: Charles Levine Subject: CHARLIE TURNER/NELSON RIDDLE ARRANGEMENTS Charlie Turner lives (retired) in his hometown of Bunnell. Florida. =20 A couple of years ago I had the pleasure of playing in a band that = backed Charlie Turner (our guest artist), He brought with him, the = Riddle arrangements that Sinatra used and Charlie played the vocal part = on trumpet. He was obviously ill, had trouble breathing, overweight and = could barely walk to the center of the stage. But when he = played.....TRULY MAGNIFICENT! He told us that he made an album in 1984 = with Riddle arrangements and SINATRA conducting, titled "What's New?" = Just at that time, Linda Ronstadt also put out her recording of "What's = New". He said his album sold about seven copies! My point is really to say how deceptively simple the Riddle = arrangements looked. Technically not challenging, playable ranges and = rhythmically fairly basic. But oh how difficult to make them sound! Charlie =20 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 06:30:06 -0500 From: Chris Waage Subject: OTJ Classifieds Update - 9/16/02 The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds (http://www.trombone.org/classifieds) have been updated as of 6:28 AM CDT on September 16, 2002. - - - - - Thank you for using the OTJ Classifieds! - - - - - OTJ Classifieds Frequently Asked Questions http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/faq.asp OTJ Gift Shoppe: http://www.cafepress.com/cp/store/store.aspx?storeid=trombones If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone Journal Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org. Chris -- ________________________________________________ Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster chris@trombone.org http://www.trombone.org - A web site for trombonists ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:34:43 -0400 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Subject: more valve trombone Two stories about valve trombone. Some of you mentioned Russ Morgan a while back. When he was playing with the local Army band a couple of years back, he came out for one concert with a Dizzy Gillespie style valve bone. He and a couple guys had had a beer too many and a torch lying around and they converted a valve trombone so the bell stuck up and forward like Dizzy's did. He sounded great on it. This was the first time I'd heard valve trombone played with full tone and it changed the way I'd thought about it. Before that I'd only heard it played by trumpet players who didn't work on it, and the sound ranged from colorless to strangled. There is also one being played in a community band in town, and the results are not as good with respect to tone or articulation. I think this is due to using too small a mouthpiece. The player uses a 23C because when he converted from trumpet everything felt too big. I think he might get decent results if he went bigger but he is reluctant to try. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:15:34 -0500 From: Nick Walenczak Subject: Re: valve trombone >The bass trombone would have the most >grotesque, unflattering sound if it was played >permanently in the high >tenor/alto register. I'm sorry, but I cannot abide >with valve 'bone bashing. Most Bass Trombonists do well in the upper Tenor register. I can recall Caesar Frank Symphony in D minor has the Bass Trombone going up to A4 in a unison melodic passage. Of course, it would be easier if played by a tenor... but the notes should still come out as crisp. Understand, though, that my exposure to the valve trombone is rather limited... but I just cannot see how the thin, nasal quality of the valve trombone could be a desired tone color in an orchestral setting. Though I wouldn't mind hearing a recording of such. Has it ever been done? -Nick -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:33:30 -0500 From: David Pozos Subject: Re: valve trombone I have a recording of the Requiem by Verdi on original instruments. In the blurb it says the they use valve trombones. I imagine that they are all the same size because they all have the same tone color. While the color is brighter it is not at all unpleasent and the intonation is great. It is the Orquesta Revolutioniere et Romantique with John Elliot Gardener conducting. Excellent recording. David Pozos Principal de Trombones Orquesta Sinfónica de Xalapa www.sinfonicadexalapa.com -- This Message has been sent with WebMail. http://www.megared.net.mx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:23:53 +1000 From: M & S Walker Subject: Re: What first interested YOU in the trombone? Hi all! Galen said...... The thing that interested me the most was that kid who kept swollowing that > piece of pipe. Darn thing kept going in an out of his mouth and down his > throat!!-- just COULDN'T figure it out!! (remember -- 3 or 4 years old!). My dad told me that trombonists spat into the trombone. Nothing about having to "blow raspberries" or the like. That had me stumped for ages, how do you make a sound by spitting? Cheers Matthew Walker Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia Walker's Instrument Repair, "The Brassery" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 06:43:04 -0700 From: David Guion Subject: Re: What first interested YOU in the trombone? I think I have mentioned this before, but if I had been living in a school district with a string program, I would have certainly taken up cello. As it was, with only band instrument to choose from, I liked the idea of tenor saxophone, but my dad hated saxophones the way Adrian hated bagpipes. I also liked the baritone horn (excuse me, really a euphonium, now that I understand the difference). That was ok with Dad, but he suggested that the trombone had more musical possibilities and that it would be easier for a trombonist to learn euphonium later on than for a euph player to learn trombone. So trombone it was. I had pretty much decided to keep out of this thread, but Paul Kemp wrote: >Getting interested in the horn is one thing: >have the desire to really excel at it is >something else entirely. I feel >that in order to do that, you need the >inspiration of someone who really >plays well. Some time during my early years, Tommy Dorsey had a weekly TV show, which I watched all the time. But even more important was the local university trombone teacher, David Glasmire. He just had such a beautiful sound. I couldn't get enough of it. I eventually studied with him for six years. From seventh grade through college, one of my classmates was a girl named Tomi Price. We were in college before I heard a better trombonist than her my own age--and there weren't many even there. But a lot of us boys were working our butts off to become almost as good. Probably as much because of Tommy Dorsey as any other reason, there were a dozen trombonists in our school bands. I can think of six who went to college as music majors. One majored in piano and voice. The rest were trombone majors and studied with David Glasmire. So I had the inspiration of a world-class virtuoso, a local professional, and a peer. -- *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* David Guion Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? david@trombone.org *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 08:05:58 -0600 From: Dennis Clason Subject: Re: valve trombone > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Nick Walenczak > Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 3:22 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] valve trombone > > > >I've heard valve trombone sound VERY good in > >acoustic settings. Not symphonic settings, of > > course, but jazz types. > > Let's just say that there's good reason why you rarely see a > valve trombone in a sympnoic orhestra, ne? > > I took over a place in a summer group not too long ago from a > valve trombonist. She was reading the bass trombone part on her > small bore valve T-bone. Perhaps it sounds better in a higher > register... but in my range it's the most grotesque, unflattering > sound you've ever heard. Whether one would see or not see a valve trombone in a symphony orchestra is dependant on time and place. If the time were mid to late 19th C, even into the early 20th C, and the place were Italy and Central Europe, valve trombones in opera and symphony orchestras would be a commonplace. Didn't Vincent Bach (who was born and educated in Vienna as a mechanical engineer) think that we should all give up our slides for valved trombones? Maybe folks looking for improved valve trombone designs should check VB's drawings... DLC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:12:36 +0100 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: valve trombone Gardener has done some great work on nineteenth century stuff in recent years. Check out his Brahmns Deutches Requiem some time if you can, it's a revelation. The modern orchestra has far too many string basses for Brahms, it all sounds so muddy. Nineteenth century Italian orchestras played on valve trombones nearly all the time from Rossini to Puccini. I think David is correct in assuming that they played with three tenors. Nineteenth century French orchestras played with three tenors too, although they used narrowbore slide instruments. It makes for some exciting slide work for us guys now. The chromatic scale at the end of the Sanctus in the Verdi is the most enormous fun. Not really much more than a home practice exercise but the flashing slide sure does impress the audience! Keith in Bb/F/D ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Pozos" To: Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] valve trombone I have a recording of the Requiem by Verdi on original instruments. In the blurb it says the they use valve trombones. I imagine that they are all the same size because they all have the same tone color. While the color is brighter it is not at all unpleasent and the intonation is great. It is the Orquesta Revolutioniere et Romantique with John Elliot Gardener conducting. Excellent recording. David Pozos Principal de Trombones Orquesta Sinfónica de Xalapa www.sinfonicadexalapa.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:22:45 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Re: valve trombone On Mon, 16 Sep 2002, Dennis Clason wrote: > Whether one would see or not see a valve trombone in a > symphony orchestra is dependant on time and place. If the > time were mid to late 19th C, even into the early 20th C, > and the place were Italy and Central Europe, valve trombones > in opera and symphony orchestras would be a commonplace. Very popular in bands in the US in that time period. I've looked at many photographs of 19th century American bands with multiple valve tenor and alto trombones (no contrabass tubas, just Eb's). Bob Rusk showed me a photo of Creatore's band with not only tenor valve trombones, but a peculiar looking bass or contrabass valve instrument. Cimbasso enthusiasts would want to label it such, I'll leave that to the experts. Carole Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:48:00 -0700 From: Galen Zinn Subject: Re: [TL]Re: What first interested YOU in the trombone? I don't think I was really aware of Tommy Dorsey until after I had studied trombone for at least a year or two. The way I heard of Tommy Dorsey was that, after people found out I was learning to play trombone, they would say to me: "Oh, yuh wanna be like Tommy Dorsey, huh?" My Uncle would even imitate Dorsey with his voice and body movements. I guess what really attracted me to the instrument other than its sound, was its very dramatic (as well as functional) shape. I just thought trombones looked cool! I still do! Galen Zinn grzinn@ca.astound.net Check out my trombone apparel and other treasures at: http://www.cafeshops.com/stonestobones ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:40:49 -0400 From: Stephen Jones Subject: A hundred years from now/valve trombone Sabutin wrote: Some hundred years from now, if people keep playing music in a manner that is in some way evolutionary from the way we play today, some player in some Dillon equivalent shop is going to hear some old guy playing a ,547 Edwards w/a Thayer on it in the style of Joe Alessi and think to himself "Why did they EVER play instruments that didn't have electromagnetic valves and automatic pitch compensation systems? And it sounds so TUBBY !!!" **************** In the mid-60s I played in Louisville/Lexington area dance bands, and as a hot pants teenage trombone player used to listen to the guys in their 50s and up and think "what in the name of heaven are they doing" when they'd solo. Until one day I heard for the first (but not last) time some big band recordings from the 30s and all of a sudden I understood what it was they were trying to do, albeit less than perfectly. I don't think it will take 100 years for the scenario that Sam describes above to occur. Bob Brookmeyer - do I think his trombone sound, per se, is the best I've ever heard (for what that's worth)? Not really. But if anyone wants to hear some of the nicest, most musical music I know of, get the Verve Jazz Masters Series volume 36 - Gerry Mulligan, all of which are cuts from the Verve Gerry Mulligan Big Band albums of the early 60s, and most of which feature Bob Brookmeyer. Do I think Bob Brookmeyer is one of the best musicians/trombone soloists I've every heard (again, for what that's worth). You betcha. Stephen (now far from hot pants anything) Jones ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:54:15 -0400 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Glenn Miller question Hi, all! Someone asked me yesterday, and I didn't know the answer... Are there any recorded examples of Glenn Miller playing an improvised solo? Not being a big fan of his band, due to too many requests for "In The Mood," I thought I would ask you folks, Thanks! Walter Barrett "Glenn's death turned out to be a good career move." - Artie Shaw, on Glenn Miller Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:35:55 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Get the right tool for the job (was Re; valve trombone) >Gardener has done some great work on nineteenth century stuff in recent >years. Check out his Brahmns Deutches Requiem some time if you can, it's a >revelation. The modern orchestra has far too many string basses for Brahms, >it all sounds so muddy. ============== Yup..,.Gardener is the best of the best w/in the orchestral movement to try to play pieces as they were meant to be played by the composers....original instruments whenever possible, at least original instrument types, correct sized orchestras. Makes perfect sense, and it WORKS. His Beethoven recordings have ruined me as far as listening to that overblown orchestral style that has grown up over the past 60 years or so. Try to imagine 1930s Duke Ellington played w/an electric bass, a synth keyboard , synth brums and two .547 tenor trombones w/ 3G m'pces and a gigantic bass trombone w/no leadpipe playing a 1G, a Monette trumpet section, all amplified so it is loud enough to get the attention of a terminally bored audience of 3000 sitting in a badly designed "modern" hall who mostly listen to robotically recorded music on CDs played on tinny speakers as background to their homework, dinner, favorite TV shows or conversation. That's most modern symphonies playing Beethoven, as far as I'm concerned. Further, I think we should all make whatever attempt possible to play historical music...and that is what Beethoven AND Ellington really are...on as close to original instruments as we can manage to obtain and learn how to play. I say again...there is nothing "wrong" w/any instrument that was played by great numbers of fine players at any time in the past...not valve trombones, not Pryor-ish .465 bores, not anything. To play like Lawrence Brown, you need to play something similar to the equipment he used. To play like Ben Webster, Harry Carney, Louis Armstrong, Bill Harris or J. J. Johnson, ditto. If you can't find and refurbish their original instruments, if your chop setup can't deal w/their m'pces (mine can't, and probably never will unless I give up the way I want to play in more contemporary situations...) fine, but at least make the attempt, understand what they played and try to get somewhere near it w/more modern equipment. I had some time to kill in the car and was listening to the radio yesterday, and I ran across a station that was playing nothing but Sinatra/Nelson Riddle collaborations. WHAT TROMBONE SECTIONS !!!! What great RECORDING of trombone sections !!!! What great trombone WRITING !!! Crystal clear, every part equal. George Roberts on the bottom, every note a jewel...old slide tuning single trigger Conn bass, probably, and a 2G m'pce. Most likely Dick Nash on top, small m'pce, Williams 6 (.500 bore, 8" bell). Whoever...guaranteed it wasn't a big setup. Just perfectly balanced and blended, up + down. You simply cannot get that lead sound even on a .509 instrument. Not at that volume (They were putting out some sound, but obviously not blasting. At the same volume, a .509 tends to be undefined and woofy in comparison as a lead instrument.) The guys in the middle...right there, every note audible yet well balanced. They had the right tools for the job, and knew how to use them. We should be so lucky. S. ============== ---snip--- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:16:05 -0600 From: Music Subject: Re: Oktoberfest in Utah on 9/13/02 9:50 AM, BassBonist@AOL.COM at BassBonist@AOL.COM wrote: > Walter Barrett writes: > >> I'll be performing with Werner Heckmann and the Royal Bavarians at >> Great Escape theme park in Lake George, NY this weekend and next, >> celebrating Oktoberfest a bit early. > > Early? From what I've been told, this is prime time for Oktoberfest since > it's usually all over with by October, at least in Germany. One of the biggest Oktoberfests in the US is at Snowbird Ski Resort just up from Salt Lake City. It starts Labor day weekend and goes for six weeks, ending October 6. Two or three bands alternate each Sat. and Sun from 12-6 If anyone should be in Utah during September, come up and say hello. Cary Hobbs (bari-trom-keyboards) The Bavarians ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:45:36 -0500 From: Fred Hudson Subject: Re: Glenn Miller question ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Barrett" > Hi, all! > > Someone asked me yesterday, and I didn't know the answer... > > Are there any recorded examples of Glenn Miller playing an improvised solo? There is a short trombone break (sixteen bars) in 'Little Brown Jug" but I can only assume it's Glenn. He was not ever known for extensive improvised solos. > Not being a big fan of his band, due to too many requests for "In The Mood," > I thought I would ask you folks, Thanks! I have never understood why "In the Mood" had so much greater survivability than other Miller "Standards". Maybe it's because any kid with a brand new guitar can "pick it out" before ever learning to read music! Fred H ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:48:06 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Bell ring pitch ? (was Re: [TBN-L] 8th partial Ab) My Shires bass bell 2RT7 rings a b-flat. Hmmm. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:48:35 -0400 From: Denver Seifried Subject: Re: What first interested YOU in the trombone? It was so great to read Dave Guion's post and see the name David Glasmire, as the trombonist who was a HUGE influence on Dave Guion's study of the trombone. I had the GREAT fortune to meet, study and be influenced by David Glasmire, while beginning at Bowling Green State University, in the fall of 1960. I happened to be offered a grant-in-aid package for the band program at BGSU on tuba and string bass. I was a music ed major at BGSU and studied tuba with Dave Glasmire, and every lesson I just marveled at the great sound he could produce on the trombone, which he played for me during lessons, as we usually ended the lesson on a couple of tuba/trombone duets from the Rubank Duet Books. Somewhere during my high school days, I bought a used Conn 5G valve bone and played in our dance band, at high school. I even took the valve bone with me to BGSU and played in the underground first edition of the BGSU Jazz Band, led by then student and presently director of the Toledo Jazz Orchestra, Dave Melle. In 1960, in wasn't deemed healthy for music majors to be involved in anything with the word "jazz" in it at BGSU; so we had to meet in secret, keeping anything involving jazz out of view of the department chair. I finally had enough tuba and while walking downtown, from campus on morning, I stopped into Bigelow's Music Store, and purchased a used 6H slide section for my valve bone. The next semester, I dropped tuba lessons and switched to trombone lessons, from Dave Glasmire, and it has been trombone ever since. What a great teacher and a LIFELONG influence on trombone Dave Glasmire has been. He is probably one of the most underrated trombone teachers in the Midwest. He never reached the status that many of his fellow trombone teachers did; however, for those of us who studied with him, know he was a GIANT of a player/teacher and lifelong friend to all who came under his influence. A lot of great trombonists came out of his studio--people like David Guion, Marta Hofacre, Jim Ehrmin, Lamar Jones, Scott Rodgers, Frank North and many, many other great players! Denny Seifried Bass Trombone-Springfield (OH) Symphony & Dayton Jazz Orchestra Adjunct Trombone-Wittenberg Univ. Dept. of Music ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Guion" To: Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] What first interested YOU in the trombone? > I think I have mentioned this before, but if I had been living in a school district with a string program, I would have certainly taken up cello. As it was, with only band instrument to choose from, I liked the idea of tenor saxophone, but my dad hated saxophones the way Adrian hated bagpipes. I also liked the baritone horn (excuse me, really a euphonium, now that I understand the difference). That was ok with Dad, but he suggested that the trombone had more musical possibilities and that it would be easier for a trombonist to learn euphonium later on than for a euph player to learn trombone. So trombone it was. > > I had pretty much decided to keep out of this thread, but Paul Kemp wrote: > > >Getting interested in the horn is one thing: > >have the desire to really excel at it is >something else entirely. I feel > >that in order to do that, you need the >inspiration of someone who really > >plays well. > > Some time during my early years, Tommy Dorsey had a weekly TV show, which I watched all the time. But even more important was the local university trombone teacher, David Glasmire. He just had such a beautiful sound. I couldn't get enough of it. I eventually studied with him for six years. From seventh grade through college, one of my classmates was a girl named Tomi Price. We were in college before I heard a better trombonist than her my own age--and there weren't many even there. But a lot of us boys were working our butts off to become almost as good. > > Probably as much because of Tommy Dorsey as any other reason, there were a dozen trombonists in our school bands. I can think of six who went to college as music majors. One majored in piano and voice. The rest were trombone majors and studied with David Glasmire. > > So I had the inspiration of a world-class virtuoso, a local professional, and a peer. > > > -- > *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* > David Guion > > Who is General Failure? And why is he > reading my hard drive? > > david@trombone.org > > > *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* > > > -- > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:51:32 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Bell ring pitch ? (was Re: [TBN-L] 8th partial Ab) And my old Bach 50G bell rings a slightly sharp G, with a very pronounced C a couple of octaves above. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:02:54 -0400 From: Dale Cruse Subject: Trombone web survey Greetings all. I'd like to start a slightly different conversation and invite any and all responses (either to the list or me personally). I've been thinking about trombone manufacturer websites online. Of the ones available, which ones do you like (or dislike) and why? Rather than bashing anyone's effort, let's try to offer constructive criticism. Answer things like what could be made better on any given manufacturer's site and what other types of information you'd like to see. I know one of the first things many of you will say is price, but please understand that for manufacturers who distribute their horns through dealers, that's not really feasible. It would be up to the dealers to set prices in conjunction with the manufacturers. Thanks in advance to all who care enough to respond. If you're not comfortable posting your thoughts to this list, feel free to email me directly. And I can tell you that some of your thoughts and constructive criticism WILL matter and will be reflected on a major trombone manufacturer's site in the near future. Thanks again. --- Dale Cruse dale@dalecruse.com www.dalecruse.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:35:38 -0400 From: "Avery, Ray (232)" Subject: Re: What first interested YOU in the trombone? When I signed up to learn a wind instrument in elementary school, I wanted to play the trumpet. All the cool guys played trumpet. I went to pick up the trumpet from the band director and after looking me up and down he said the trumpets were all gone, how about a trombone. I don't know if the trumpets were really gone, but he thought because of my height and arm length, I would be able to reach all 7 positions. I believe it was just a tactic to recruit kids for instruments other than trumpet. Then I discovered the same truth that Jesse did, "...there's more opportunities to be a star if you're one of a few." I know some listers here and on OTJ like to bash less than serious musicians (Kenny G is a favorite whipping boy), but my heros in the mid 60's were the Tijuana Brass. I thought their tbnist was cool and could do amazing things. Hey, at least it kept me playing the tbn. In high school I discovered Bill Pearce. His sound became my standard - I wanted to sound like him. After hearing him live and meeting him personally when in college, I was further resolved to strive for a higher standard of excellence in musicianship. Since then, my interests have broadened and I have "discovered" many other trombonists - some of whom are listers and OTJ members. I purchased their CD's and books - I read what they have to offer here and on OTJ. All this inspires me to keep working. I find toward the end of my work day, I'm chomping at the bit to get home and get out my horns. Music is a great way to relax and unwind. Ray Avery Director, Human Resources Harvard Custom Manufacturing, Inc. 607-687-7669 -----Original Message----- From: Jesse Hickle [mailto:jhickle@EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Friday, September 13, 2002 7:46 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] What first interested YOU in the trombone? With all the talk here about how few kids are going into band, or more specifically, how few are starting trombone, I was wondering how others on the list got interested in the instrument. Perhaps the answer lies there... For me, I first got interested in trombone on a TV show. A little embarrassed to say it now, but it was You Can't Do That On Television. One of the kids was sitting in that classroom they did a number of sketches in, holding a trombone. I don't remember the specifics, but I do remember another kid asking him why he picked the trombone, and he said "Because you can shoot really big spitballs with it." And then he shot a really big spitball. Well, I thought it was hilarious at the time, and I wanted to do that. I also liked the sound, I thought it would be cool to be able to do all that sloshy playing with it. I guess you could say the slide was the biggest attraction in the band park...for me anyway. I started playing in sixth grade and never stopped. Never wanted to play anything else. The trombone may not be the flashiest of instruments, like the saxophone or the trumpet, which is what everyone else wanted to play, but I think I understood how important it was. My band director was a trombone player herself, so we always had good parts. The thing that was the best for me was that, while the overflow on the more popular instruments made it hard to make the high bands, being one of a few increased my odds greatly. In short, there's more opportunities to be a star if you're one of a few. That's my story. It's been a constant growth for me, and I've grown to appreciate all aspects of the horn, the serious and the playful (my senior recital in college consisted of Fredrik Hogberg's SuBaDoBe, Sulek's Sonata Vox Gabrieli, and Presser's Jorepi with the clarinetist I was sharing the recital with). Anyone else want to share? PS - I'm fairly new to the list, so if this has been done, forgive me. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:50:49 +0100 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Glenn Miller question From: "Fred Hudson" > I have never understood why "In the Mood" had so much greater survivability > than other Miller "Standards". Maybe it's because any kid with a brand new > guitar can "pick it out" before ever learning to read music! Maybe because the main theme is written on only 3 triads (I, IV & V), just about as much as the average punter is able to understand. I absolutely loathe having to play it, maybe because my first encounter with it was as a young saxophonist playing the 2nd tenor sax part of the printed arrangement that was designed to be played by any size of band. While the other guys are playing relatively interesting arpeggiated lines, the 2nd tenor is stuck with the added 6th in every position, punctuated only by occasional leaps of an octave. As a bass 'bonist, I've played the same stock chart so many times with different bands, I don't need to pull the part out any more. These bands should display a sign stating "Requests $5, Miller tunes $10, In the Mood $25". A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:40:34 -0700 From: Mike Mathews Subject: Re: Glenn Miller question All of this (see below) reminds me of a time when Woody Herman and his band were in town. We invited them all out to the campus to do some clinics. During a Q & A session some innocant soul asked Woody if he was going to play "In the Mood" on the concert that night. Woody's reply was, "No, I don't play Glenn Miller's mistakes. I have mistakes of my own to play, like "Woodchoppers Ball." >From: "Walter Barrett" > > >> Hi, all! >> >> Someone asked me yesterday, and I didn't know the answer... >> >> Are there any recorded examples of Glenn Miller playing an improvised >solo? > > There is a short trombone break (sixteen bars) in 'Little Brown Jug" but I >can only assume it's Glenn. He was not ever known for extensive improvised >solos. > >> Not being a big fan of his band, due to too many requests for "In The >Mood," >> I thought I would ask you folks, Thanks! > > >I have never understood why "In the Mood" had so much greater survivability >than other Miller "Standards". Maybe it's because any kid with a brand new >guitar can "pick it out" before ever learning to read music! > >Fred H Mike Mathews Director of Instrumental Studies Missouri Western State College mathews@mwsc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 12:56:53 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Amusing story, was Re: valve trombone -- Keith Marr wrote: > It makes for some exciting slide work for us guys now. > The chromatic scale > at the end of the Sanctus in the Verdi is the most > enormous fun. Not really > much more than a home practice exercise but the flashing > slide sure does > impress the audience! A few years ago, listmember Peter Collins and I were 2 of 4 finalists for the bass trombone job in the Toledo Symphony. We had met and talked a bit while waiting for the first two rounds to finish. He played just before me in the finals, and was smiling and laughing to himself as he came out of the hall. I said something like "went well, huh?" He just chuckled and said "You'll see...". It turned out the last round was all sight reading. Two very standard excerpts that I had just played for the St. Louis Symphony 2 days before, and then that Chromatic Scale. Let's just say I took the scale just a hair too fast... Still freelancing in Boston, Gabe __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:00:54 -0400 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: Glenn Miller question Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but Mike Mathews > All of this (see below) reminds me of a time when Woody Herman and his > band were in town. We invited them all out to the campus to do some > clinics. During a Q & A session some innocant soul asked Woody if he was > going to play "In the Mood" on the concert that night. Woody's reply was, > "No, I don't play Glenn Miller's mistakes. I have mistakes of my own to > play, like "Woodchoppers Ball." Well, at least Woody was somewhat of a gentleman about it! Hmmm, wonder what Maynard would've said; Adrian, any insights? I'm also imagining the scene if someone asked Buddy "Tactful is my middle name" Rich to play "In The Mood." Walter Barrett Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:13:09 -0500 From: Nick Walenczak Subject: Re: Trombone web survey I've shopped around through a number of different manufacturers... UMI - Not a bad layout. Especially like the serial number search in case I'm curious when my horn hails from. In terms of searching for instruments, it oculd use a little work. I understand they've gone through this whole process of combining all those other manufacturers, and I give them a lot of credit. I searched for Bass Trombones, but I only got a few hits. Noticably absent was the King 2107 (7B). Unless they stopped production of it. They've put in a lot of effort to cover all bases, even having fingering charts avaliable. However, there's just something not right with the overall feel... maybe it's just me. Maybe it's the size of the links on the left. I don't know. I'm happy that they've added Thayer Valves to their line of instruments. I know some friends who would buy a straight 88H and have someone throw on a section later. I guess this saves you the trouble. Selmer & Bach - They're still working on it... but it's better than it used to be. You can now get instructions on how to repair horns. Comes in real handy for music teachers. Finding the trombone section of their site requires a little bit of looking. A tiny link on the left says "Bach Trombones".I missed it the first couple times. They do nice thing for trumpets (Bach Trumpets, what else?). They have a little message board for them on their site. Maybe they'll have one for trombone one day too. Edwards - The feel of the site is just great. They certainly show you a lot of pictures. Nothing better than looking at Bass Trombone centerfolds. You can buy it right from their site (prepackaged), or you can buy just the parts. I really have no complaints... perhaps if they had it so that you could customize the trombone package you want instead of going through all the parts... like going to a car dealer site and chosing options. I really like the basic tour of the production process they have. Getzen - Parent company for Edwards... you'd figure they'd have a smiliar site. No. It's much more spartan. Can't buy online. Less photos (few infact). And trombones are not in their own list... meaning you have to know which series "supports" the trombone option. Not really as friendly as Edwards. Miraphone - It's nice... I think. Even with the English translation, it's hard to find you way around. I can't seem to find their renoun contra-bass trombone. Yamaha - It's a nice site. Gets right to the point of things... and the pictures are good quality. I just wish they separated the Basses and Tenors. It would make it easier to find exactly what you need. But it's a very comfortable site. Still can't buy online, though. (Heard rumors that they would be doing so "shortly"... which was over 2 years now). Thein - I've never known too much about them untill I visited their site. Very nice. Nothing like seeing a smiling trombonist smiling trombonist smiling back. Thumbs up, Ben! If you're looking for a specialty trombone... this is the site. They have a couple models of Contra (who does that?). Even a Piccolo trombone. They give export prices too. Boosey & Hawkes - Not a bad layout. More or less straight forward. They have a .563" bore on their Bass Trombone... that's something else, eh? If you highlight the "features", they give you a discription of what it does... like the difference between heavy and a light slide... gold brass or rose brass. I think that's about it for the "Major" manufactureres. I don't think I've forgotten any... Except L.A. Horns and Amati. But it's time to run off and practice now. -Nick Walenczak Bass Trombonist Williamsville, NY -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:21:44 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Get the right tool for the job (was Re; valve trombone) --- sabutin wrote: > Yup..,.Gardener is the best of the best w/in the > orchestral > movement to try to play pieces as they were meant to be > played by the > composers....original instruments whenever possible, at > least > original instrument types, correct sized orchestras. I have a set of his Schumann symphonies & other orchestral music (including a concertstucke for 4 horns that ROCKS) that I just love. However, > Try to imagine 1930s Duke Ellington played w/an > electric bass, a > synth keyboard , synth brums and two .547 tenor trombones > w/ 3G > m'pces and a gigantic bass trombone w/no leadpipe playing > a 1G, a > Monette trumpet section, all amplified so it is loud > enough to get > the attention of a terminally bored audience of 3000 > sitting in a > badly designed "modern" hall who mostly listen to > robotically > recorded music on CDs played on tinny speakers as > background to their > homework, dinner, favorite TV shows or conversation. Yeah, that would suck, but one of the things I admire most about Ellington was that the music and arrangements for the band evolved over time. If he were still alive, he would probably be tweaking the arrangements so that they WOULD work with his current players and the instruments they liked, as well as the halls he was playing in, amplifiers and all. I've got nothing against reproducing sounds of the past, but a lot of the time - not all - I would rather hear creative reinterpretation, particularly of music like Ellington's, which was so wonderfully fluid in spirit. For example, the Joe Henderson "Lush Life" album is much more interesting to me than the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra playing Ellington, good as it can be... As I'm writing this, though, I realize that I don't fully agree with what I'm writing (what can I say...I think it's healthy to embrace contradictions). Maybe my problem with the LCJO is just the self-congratulatory, egotistical vibe I get from it, even over the PBS airwaves - and not so much the "reproduction of old music" aspect. I've never heard the Smithsonian group - I imagine I'd enjoy that more, if only because it is what it is. It seems to me that the LCJO should be doing more creative work, by living composers and so forth (of course, it's not my job to decide that...). I should shut up before I really get myself in trouble... Gabe __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:44:01 EDT From: SteveInside@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Get the right tool for the job (was Re; valve trombone) In a message dated 16/09/02 21:23:50 GMT Daylight Time, glangfur@YAHOO.COM writes: > I've got nothing against reproducing sounds of the past, > but a lot of the time - not all - I would rather hear > creative reinterpretation, particularly of music like > Ellington's, which was so wonderfully fluid in spirit. For > example, the Joe Henderson "Lush Life" album is much more > interesting to me than the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra > playing Ellington, good as it can be... -------------------------------------------------------------------- I have bored feelings welling up inside me whenever i hear a current ensemble playing swing and jazz in that pre-packed way. Lifeless and dull. I completely agree with the idea of having the right tools for the job. The sound from any group of players playing in the way and on the instruments the composer anticipated can be a revelation. But still it's a performance. Isn't it about bringing something new (or truly of yourself) to the music each time you play it? Otherwise, pretty much everything's been done already. Steve C ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 15:45:48 -0500 From: Joshua Brown Subject: Re: Trombone web survey Hi Nick, Thanks for the nice comments about the Edwards site. The one complaint you did list has been corrected. You can now customize your instrument when buying online. As for the Getzen site, a new version is in the works. However, you will not be able to purchase horns online. Getzen sells its horns only through music dealers. Take care, Joshua Brown Edwards Webmaster http://www.edwards-instruments.com/ >Edwards - The feel of the site is just great. They certainly show you a lot >of pictures. Nothing better than looking at Bass Trombone centerfolds. You >can buy it right from their site (prepackaged), or you can buy just the >parts. I really have no complaints... perhaps if they had it so that you >could customize the trombone package you want instead of going through all >the parts... like going to a car dealer site and chosing options. I really >like the basic tour of the production process they have. > >Getzen - Parent company for Edwards... you'd figure they'd have a smiliar >site. No. It's much more spartan. Can't buy online. Less photos (few >infact). And trombones are not in their own list... meaning you have to >know which series "supports" the trombone option. Not really as friendly as >Edwards. >-Nick Walenczak >Bass Trombonist >Williamsville, NY >-- >__________________________________________________________ >Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com >http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:50:34 -0400 From: "R,A.Bates" Subject: Bam Bach fit Does anyone know if a Bach 50t3(dual inline thayers) will fit in a Bam = bass tbone case. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 16:45:53 EDT From: REOnofreyJ@AOL.COM Subject: Re: What first interested YOU in the trombone? When I was in high school, I played an accordion (Stop snickering!). When I went to college, I wanted to join the marching band. So I went to see the director. When I got to his office, and told him my intention, he asked what instrument I played. Then he told me, "We don't have any accordions in marching band." So I asked him what I should play. After going back and forth between "what do you want to play" and "what do you need", he asked if I could read bass clef. When I said yes, he smiled and handed me a trombone in the case. After looking at the case for a minute, I asked him what it was, and how you played it. He first told me to open the case, showed me how to put it together, and gave me the basic instruction in how to get sound out of the horn (he was a sax player). Since then I've pretty much taught myself, and no, I don't play the accordion anymore. Rick Onofrey ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 14:12:24 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Bam Bach fit --- "R,A.Bates" wrote: > Does anyone know if a Bach 50t3(dual inline thayers) will > fit in a Bam bass tbone case. I think so...my Shires with dependent thayers does. Make sure you can return it if it doesn't... Gabe __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! News - Today's headlines http://news.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:21:58 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: repertory jazz was RE: [TBN-L] Get the right tool for the job (was Re; valve trombone) Maybe my problem with > the LCJO is just the self-congratulatory, egotistical vibe > I get from it, even over the PBS airwaves - and not so much > the "reproduction of old music" aspect. I've never heard > the Smithsonian group - I imagine I'd enjoy that more, if > only because it is what it is. It seems to me that the LCJO > should be doing more creative work, by living composers and > so forth (of course, it's not my job to decide that...). > > I should shut up before I really get myself in trouble... > > Gabe =================================================== I have a problem listening to most repertory jazz, not a philosophical problem, I think they provide a very necessary service, it's just not a service I want to hear usually. I have always felt that the purpose of jazz was creativity, as opposed to classical music which often has a repertory emphasis. I like to go hear Mahler 5 even when I know what it is going to sound like, but I don't really want to Hear "Take the A Train" with the solos that were recorded in 1943. That could just be my taste. I heard the Smithsonian band, and didn't get as much of that recreationist vibe, but I only heard them once. I know LCJO does do some new music. I have a buddy that is writing something for them, but of course I think he is writing what he thinks Wynton wants to hear so it will get programmed. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:49:04 -0500 From: E P LUKAS Subject: Re: What first interested YOU in the trombone? REOnofreyJ@AOL.COM wrote: > Since then I've pretty much taught myself, and no, I don't play the accordion > anymore. Rick, please continue playing the accordion. Here in Memphis we need accordion players...particularly in Mexican bands. You could have a gig every day! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:51:52 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: valve trombone At 08:05 AM 9/16/2002 -0600, Dennis Clason wrote: > > >I've heard valve trombone sound VERY good in > > >acoustic settings. Not symphonic settings, of > > > course, but jazz types. > > > > Let's just say that there's good reason why you rarely see a > > valve trombone in a sympnoic orhestra, ne? >Whether one would see or not see a valve trombone in a >symphony orchestra is dependant on time and place. If the >time were mid to late 19th C, even into the early 20th C, >and the place were Italy and Central Europe, valve trombones >in opera and symphony orchestras would be a commonplace. I think we can stipulate that the valve trombone, such as it is, has a distinctive voice. For special effect, a composer might call for that. But my gripe is that while there has been an enormous investment in slide trombone R&D over the past century, there has been virtually zero investment in valve trombone. The result is that today's valve trombones are way behind their slide brethren in terms of resonance, power, and clarity of tone. It needn't be that way. The improvements that have brought the slide trombones so far would almost all carry over directly to a modern valve trombone. Almost everything that has been developed in bells, bracing, and leadpipes should plug right into a new valve trombone design. Today's F attachment valves have virtually eliminated any penalty for using valves, so some of that technology ought to be able to work almost right off the shelf. There are several big companies out there that are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on clinicians and loads of different, overlapping, redundant signature model trombones for slide trombone. The volumes that those artist branded horns sell could not possibly provide ROI directly (excepting the Lindberg 88H and maybe the Getzen Taylor model). The companies view these projects as an important part of their marketing and R&D. I'm simply suggesting that it would be very much in their interest to put a tiny fraction of that money into building just one valve trombone with up-to-date technology. I'm not asking for 35 different "honest this one's better than all the rest" horns. Just one new design in 120 years. Is that really asking too much? Still tilting at my windmill, Craig ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:46:03 -0400 From: Charles Perron Subject: What first interested YOU in the trombone? My mother brought home an Urbie Green (Big Beautiful Band) album and I was hooked. I think I was in 8th grade. I met Urbie for the first (and only) time a few years ago and told him that story. He said, "I hope you won't hold it against me." :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:36:20 -0400 From: Chris Dearth Subject: Re: repertory jazz was RE: [TBN-L] Get the right tool for the job (was Re; valve trombone) With the Smithsonian band, it even depends on who's running the particular concert (whether it's David Baker or Gunther Schuller). David tends to let the musicians make the music a little more their own. Gunther tends to go for the accurate recreations (period style, etc.). At least this is what I gleaned from David in the Ellington Class he taught at Indiana U. Chris Dearth > =================================================== > > I have a problem listening to most repertory jazz, not a philosophical > problem, I think they provide a very necessary service, it's just not a > service I want to hear usually. I have always felt that the purpose of > jazz was creativity, as opposed to classical music which often has a > repertory emphasis. I like to go hear Mahler 5 even when I know what it > is going to sound like, but I don't really want to Hear "Take the A > Train" with the solos that were recorded in 1943. That could just be my > taste. > > I heard the Smithsonian band, and didn't get as much of that > recreationist vibe, but I only heard them once. I know LCJO does do > some new music. I have a buddy that is writing something for them, but > of course I think he is writing what he thinks Wynton wants to hear so > it will get programmed. > > Jeff Albert > > www.jeffalbert.com > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 22:19:31 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] repertory jazz was RE: [TBN-L] Get the right tool for the job (was Re; valve trombone) >With the Smithsonian band, it even depends on who's running the particular >concert (whether it's David Baker or Gunther Schuller). David tends to let >the musicians make the music a little more their own. Gunther tends to go >for the accurate recreations (period style, etc.). At least this is what I >gleaned from David in the Ellington Class he taught at Indiana U. > >Chris Dearth ========= Actually, no matter who leads the band...very few of us are playing the right equipment, and it's very difficult to get an unamplified take on the subject. Dig it...it takes M-O-N-E-Y to do stuff like this. M-O-N-E-Y to require the right hall and correct acoustic treatment. M-O-N-E-Y to pay the musicians enough so that they feel free to experiment w/out the danger of losing other gigs. M-O-N-E-Y money...and there IS no money for such refined attempts at re-creation of the real thing. Why? Because there is MORE money in Dave Koz/Kenny G./LCJO bullshit. What to do? Damned if I know. Keep on trying is all I understand. Several people have commented that the SJMO concerts they've heard weren't strong enough to warrant the necessary attention to do this. They're right, in a sense...but it's M-O-N-E-Y that gets in the way. Not intent; not talent. Money to support the attempt. David Baker knows something about this. So do Joe Wllder, Charlie Owens, myself, and Brent Wallarab, among others. But...can we make a living trying to both re-create and make new these idioms? Not. Solution? . Keep trying. And keep supporting the attempt. Later... S. ============= > > > > > I have a problem listening to most repertory jazz, not a philosophical > > problem, I think they provide a very necessary service, it's just not a > > service I want to hear usually. I have always felt that the purpose of > > jazz was creativity, as opposed to classical music which often has a > > repertory emphasis. I like to go hear Mahler 5 even when I know what it > > is going to sound like, but I don't really want to Hear "Take the A > > Train" with the solos that were recorded in 1943. That could just be my > > taste. > > > > I heard the Smithsonian band, and didn't get as much of that > > recreationist vibe, but I only heard them once. I know LCJO does do > > some new music. I have a buddy that is writing something for them, but > > of course I think he is writing what he thinks Wynton wants to hear so > > it will get programmed. > > > > Jeff Albert > > > > www.jeffalbert.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 22:12:28 -0500 From: Dean McCarty Subject: Re: What first interested YOU in the trombone? I heard the opening phrase from Chicago's "Just You 'n Me" and thought that instrument sounded cool. Turns out that Jimmy Pankow is still one of my favorite trombonists. Check out his great soloing on Chicago 7 on a tune called "Hanky Panky"... bebop rock trombone... you can definitely hear JJ's influence on that tune. Another great recent tune (a remake actually) is "Another Rainy Day in New York City." You've got to hear this live... they do it with piano, vocals, congas, and Pankow soloing behind it all. I don't think they've released this version on a recording. They did perform it on A&E's Live By Request a couple of weeks ago though. I switched in 9th grade to bass trombone when I heard Phil Teele playing "Road Time Shuffle" and "Tuning Up" with the Toshiko Akiyoshi Band... that sound was inspiring. Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 04:12:13 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: What first interested YOU in the trombone? >Rick, please continue playing the accordion. Here in Memphis >we need accordion players...particularly in Mexican bands. You >could have a gig every day! Or banda~on or some little squeezebox. Accordion can be a gorgeous instrument, when played with a bit of soul. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 00:19:16 -0400 From: Charles Perron Subject: repertory jazz was Get the right tool for the job How far are these repertory bands going (or how far do they want to go) to recreate the original band (not just sound)? Are they using singers in the same way as they used to? Are they playing music for dancing (the ones that are emulating dance bands)? Are they trying to appeal to the same age group? Are they dressing the part? Are they trying to portray themselves as fun/hip/cool/whatever that attracted so many to the original bands? I guess what I'm confused about is why we are recreating this music (besides the obvious fact that it is great music). Chris brought out the fact that the same music varies depending on the director. Neither David Baker nor Gunther Schuller are Duke Ellington. And Sam brought out the fact that the instruments being used are not the same as the original band. So the sound cannot be the same. Jeff Albert wrote that he didn't want to hear "Take the 'A' Train" with solos that were recorded in 1943. He (as all of us) is accustomed to hearing other things (whether Dave Koz or John Coletrane) than the audiences in 1943. And then there is the money. What was done on a shoestring budget then requires a ton of money today. The pool of players is different. The mindset and motivation of the players is different. Some of these differences will never be overcome. And to top it off, audience tastes change. So, even if Duke Ellington and the original band came back to life, their popularity would not last forever. And without an audience, what is left? Great music filling an empty hall (or more out-of-work musicians). Even after 300 years JS Bach's music speaks to a multitude of people. Whether played by a modern orchestra setup or on original instruments the music and musicians seem to be able to transcend various limitations and still reach the audience (even if it sounds better in one setting than the other). So why is it that there is barely enough money to recreate Ellington at all let alone with original instruments? Is it because money that could have gone to promote it went instead to "Dave Koz/Kenny G./LCJO"? Maybe to a limited extent, but I really don't think that adequately explains the decline in popularity over the last 30 or more years. What do people really want right now that will fill a perceived need in their lives? During the 40's the swing bands provided a cheap night out and temporary escape from the pressures of WWII. What are the heartfelt needs today? And does jazz (of any kind) fill them? Funding and advertising a repertory band that uses small bore trombones isn't going to make the difference IMHO. I think the bigger issues need to be addressed first (why are we doing it?, who is going to listen?, why should they listen?, given some of the insurmountable differences between today and 60 years ago is the cost worth the outcome? Etc), otherwise jazz is destined to struggle to retain its history and ultimately to survive at all. But we will have a better perspective in a couple of hundred years. ;-) Chuck Chris Dearth wrote: >With the Smithsonian band, it even depends on who's running the >particular concert (whether it's David Baker or Gunther Schuller). Jeff Albert wrote: >I like to go hear Mahler 5 even when I know what it is going to sound like, >but I don't really want to Hear "Take the A Train" with the solos that were recorded in 1943. >That could just be my taste. Sabutin wrote: >Actually, no matter who leads the band...very few of us >are playing the right equipment, and it's very difficult >to get an unamplified take on the subject. >M-O-N-E-Y to pay the musicians enough so that they feel free to experiment w/out the danger of losing other gigs. >M-O-N-E-Y money...and there IS no money for such refined attempts at re-creation of the real thing. >Why? Because there is MORE money in Dave Koz/Kenny G./LCJO bullshit. ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 15 Sep 2002 to 16 Sep 2002 (#2002-65) ****************************************************************