Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 14 Sep 2002 to 15 Sep 2002 (#2002-64) There are 21 messages totalling 1169 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. scoring question (2) 2. Sibelius Instrumentation 3. Instruments on E-Bay 4. This Is London article from Jay Heltzer (3) 5. valve trombone (7) 6. Cleaning house - amended 7. How to teach Dolce 8. Building Trombones-employment opportunities 9. What first interested YOU in the trombone? (3) 10. Frank Sinatra ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 02:46:54 EDT From: JFBermann@AOL.COM Subject: Re: scoring question Peter, Oops, I was so caught up in the great english horn playing that I forgot I was playing! :o) The Swan Of Tuonela does indeed have 3 trombones. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:24:28 +0300 From: eliezer aharoni Subject: Sibelius Instrumentation The Swan of Tuonela has 3 trombones. If I remember correctly, the bass bone part is all low A's... Eliezer Aharoni Bass Trombonist, Jerusalem Symphony Orchestra POB 4025, Jerusalem ISRAEL 91040 Phone ++972 2 5341333 Please avoid sending documents as attachments - we usa a Macintosh computer and in some cases can not convert them. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:11:56 EDT From: JFBermann@AOL.COM Subject: Instruments on E-Bay Fellow Listers and Colleagues, After checking out some recently listed items on E-Bay, I felt a friendly reminder was in line for my fellow listers and colleagues. What you see is not always what you get. I pride myself in describing items that I am selling exactly as they are, and have yet to have a buyer that was not happy. As Chris Waage has metioned in a previous post, especially when buying on E-Bay, ask questions, the right ones, and a lot of them. Also it's good to remember that if an item has not reached a reserve price if it has one, and you negotiate to buy it from the seller off E-Bay, you lose the protection that E-Bay offers you as a buyer. It's disturbing to see items listed that the seller knows nothing about but acts like they do, and secondly items that are misrepresented. There are good deals to be had, just do your homework. If in doubt, shop the On Line Trombone Journal classifieds, or put a post on the trombone list. That's why were here, to help each other. All My Best, Jim Bermann ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 09:17:31 -0500 From: Jay Heltzer Subject: Re: scoring question While we are on the topic of scoring and instrumentation of orchestral pieces, does anyone know if there is an internet resource with that information, if not, a fantastic book, that lists most if not all standard orchestral works? Whew! Quite the run-on sentence for this early in the morning, if I say so myself. Jay Heltzer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:13:48 -0500 From: Nick Walenczak Subject: Re: This Is London article from Jay Heltzer Is it just me? Or do any others here notice a little bit of hearing loss? In recent years... well... months, rather, I've noticed that I've been asking people to repeat what they're saying several times... especially when there's background noise. I blame the percussion, of course. But now that I think about it, I wonder what all the woodwinds and strings feel about the brass. I am rather tempted to subscribe to a woodwind list and find out. I've never noticed untill now that all the orchestras that I've played in have conveniently left a 10-15 foot gap in front of the trombones. Maybe it's more than just slide space, eh? -Nick Walenczak Bass Trombonist Williamsville, NY ----- Original Message ----- From: jhfloyd@earthlink.net Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:48:47 +0100 To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] This Is London article from Jay Heltzer My wife (violist) passed this on to me. Shame we get all the blame. Percussion can be deafening as well. Anyway, read on, my friends. Jay PLEASE TURN DOWN THE ORCHESTRA Who has made the biggest noise at this year's Proms? It has already been a bumper season for large and loud ensembles. Full Story: http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/hottx/top_review.html?in_review_id=673980&in_review_text_id=645839 9 September 2002 http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/ Got a problem opening the page? Go to: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/html/URL_help.html -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:21:38 -0500 From: Nick Walenczak Subject: Re: valve trombone >I've heard valve trombone sound VERY good in >acoustic settings. Not symphonic settings, of > course, but jazz types. Let's just say that there's good reason why you rarely see a valve trombone in a sympnoic orhestra, ne? I took over a place in a summer group not too long ago from a valve trombonist. She was reading the bass trombone part on her small bore valve T-bone. Perhaps it sounds better in a higher register... but in my range it's the most grotesque, unflattering sound you've ever heard. -Nick Walenczak Bass Trombonist Williamsville, NY -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:32:33 -0500 From: Dean McCarty Subject: Cleaning house - amended Hello Again: The tuba material has been taken from my list of stuff... the remainder listed below I would take $65 (that's including shipping) Tenor Solos: Manipulations for solo trombone - Allen Molineux Cryptical Triptych - Walter Ross Carnival of Venice - transcribed by Josef Koestner Unaccompanied Solos for Tenor Trombone Vol. 3 - Tommy Pederson Unaccompanied Solos for Tenor Trombone Vol. 2 - Tommy Pederson Intermediate Trombone Solos (w/cassette and piano) - Eugene Watts (Canadian Brass Editions) (great for private students) Festival Performance Solos Vol. 1 (great for private students) Festival Performance Solos Vol. 2 (great for private students) Trombone Solos Level 1 (collection) (great for private students) Trombone Solos Level 2 (collection) (great for private students) Six Suites - Bach (Schirmer ed.) (this is published for cello, NOT a trombone transcription - I used it for comparison) Tenor Methods: Basic Routines - Robert Marsteller Elementary Method - Newell H. Long (Rubank) (great for private students) Tenor Duets: Modern Jazz Duets Vol. 1 "Cookin' " - David Baker Modern Jazz Duets Vol. 2 "Smokin' Duets" - David Baker Bass Solos: Remembrance (w/WW quartet) - David Liebman (played by David Taylor on his first solo album) Concerto - Ellen Taaffe Zwilich (solo and study score) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:30:53 -0500 From: Jeff Oien Subject: Re: This Is London article from Jay Heltzer If you haven't seen it here is an article on noise levels: http://www.yeodoug.com/noiselevels.html My hearing is still very sensitive despite having sat in front of lead trumpet players and drummers in the past but I'm only 37. Jeff Oien > Is it just me? > > Or do any others here notice a little bit of hearing loss? In recent > years... well... months, rather, I've noticed that I've been asking > people to repeat what they're saying several times... especially when > there's background noise. > > I blame the percussion, of course. But now that I think about it, I > wonder what all the woodwinds and strings feel about the brass. I am > rather tempted to subscribe to a woodwind list and find out. I've > never noticed untill now that all the orchestras that I've played in > have conveniently left a 10-15 foot gap in front of the trombones. > Maybe it's more than just slide space, eh? > > > -Nick Walenczak > Bass Trombonist > Williamsville, NY > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jhfloyd@earthlink.net > Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:48:47 +0100 > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] This Is London article from Jay Heltzer > > My wife (violist) passed this on to me. Shame we get all the blame. > Percussion can be deafening as well. Anyway, read on, my friends. > > Jay > > PLEASE TURN DOWN THE ORCHESTRA > Who has made the biggest noise at this year's Proms? It has already > been a bumper season for large and loud ensembles. > > Full Story: > http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/hottx/top_review.html?in_review_id =673980&in_review_text_id=645839 9 September 2002 http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/ Got a problem opening the page? Go to: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/html/URL_help.html -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:33:20 -0500 From: Nick Walenczak Subject: Re: How to teach Dolce > What words best describe how to play or sing > Dolce passages? How do you > know when the Dolce instruction lapses? > > David How do I describe it? It's just something that the player developes, I would say. Making the music go somewhere. Rochut and other similar books are good for that. They're vocalises, so they suppose to be... well... melodic. I've always imagined how a singer would do it before I play them. This seems to be dealing with musical expression not only dolce... a book that Dr. Holcomb here at SUNY Fredonia highly recommends is "Note Dropppings"... er... "Note Grouping" rather. I've thumbed through it and it seems to give detailed instruction on how to play expressively. Some of the stuff is like "Oh... so that's why I was doing that." I can't say too much about it, since I'm still waiting for my copy of the book. It should be a worthwhile read for students and teacher alike. Al Hemer Music can get it to you. www.alhemer.com I've pestered Al about that book (didn't know the author or publisher) so he should know exactly what you're talking about. I don't know how you'd teach something like Dolce. I'm a lousy teacher... which is probably why I'm studying Music Education. to get better, that is. -Nick Walenczak Student Bass Trombonist SUNY Fredonia -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:58:00 -0500 From: Gary Greenhoe Subject: Building Trombones-employment opportunities Hi list, As we expand our production in Wisconsin, we are taking applications for employment. I thought it would be a plus to find a trombonist. If you might be interested in a full time gig in our shop or have friends that may be interested, please check the OTJ news..or www.greenhoe.com for details. Gary Greenhoe Greenhoe Musical Instrument Components Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra gary@greenhoe.com http://www.greenhoe.com 262-677-0460 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 17:02:24 -0500 From: Nick Walenczak Subject: Re: What first interested YOU in the trombone? I wish I had a cool story... Mine is rather bland. How did I get started? Our 4th grade band was playing for the third graders (we could pick intruments to play next year if we wanted). So, on a whim, I chose the trombone. That's what got me started. 4th grade I learned the trombone. I remember being taught how to buzz. Good ol' days, eh? My first day at band was rather discouraging, though. A trumpet playing friend of mine said "Your instrument sounds funny." Great... just great. By 5th grade (begining of middle school), I wanted to quit. My mom (bless her), make me atleast stick it out to the end of the year. BIG mistake... by that point, I was like "Huh? Quit? Why!?" The next big step came in high school. Trombones were never the favored instrument. There were only two in all three of our bands (six total). I was in the "bad" band. I was a freshman... with absolutely no sense of pitch. Yes... I was that painful little kid who NEVER pulled his tuning slide out. Geeze! It embarasses me to say that. Due to the instrumentation, our high school collapsed down into two bands... the Wind Ensemble (40-50) and the Symphonic Band (120-140). My band director back then said "Nick.... you'll be playing Bass Trombone in Wind Ensemble next year." "Okay." That's it... that's the whole story. No redifining moment of self-discovery or anything. Now -- of course -- I've improved a lot since then... and certainly my sense of pitch is better (still can't get my 6th position F in tune). The one thing that solidified (more than it already was) my decision to become a trombonist happened a year ago almost. My father died of cancer. I remember how much he used to like it when I played Tannhauser excerpts for him... so that's what I played for him as they were lowering his casket. I wish I could say that that was the most flawless performance I've ever given... it wasn't. I didn't like the attack on a couple of the notes... my G was a little bit on the high side once. But all my friends and family told me that THAT was the best that I've ever played. Faults aside. Music was always there for me... it's the one thing that no one can take away from me. It'll always be there to comfort me... to cry with me... to celebrate my achievements. Always. Through music (Marching Band) I've met my, unfortunately, now ex-girlfriend. She was a bass trombonist just like me. How weird is that? So that's it... that's my whole story. Not much, but it's all I have. -Nick Walenczak Bass Trombonist Williamsville, NY -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:06:58 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: valve trombone > >I've heard valve trombone sound VERY good in >>acoustic settings. Not symphonic settings, of >> course, but jazz types. > >Let's just say that there's good reason why you rarely see a valve >trombone in a sympnoic orhestra, ne? > >I took over a place in a summer group not too long ago from a valve >trombonist. She was reading the bass trombone part on her small bore >valve T-bone. Perhaps it sounds better in a higher register... but >in my range it's the most grotesque, unflattering sound you've ever >heard. > > >-Nick Walenczak >Bass Trombonist >Williamsville, NY >-- ================== Just for general interest's sake... A little known fact is that Juan Tizol played all the third parts on Duke Ellington's band, and was an integral part of perhaps the best sounding (to my ears, anyway) jazz trombone section to ever play. I have listened very carefully to the recordings, and he sounded GREAT in the low register. On a King trombone pitched in C !!! (Maybe slightly larger bore than normal...I've heard different reports about that.) I have played his parts on a .500 bore Conn valve section and several different bells in The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra using a stock 6 1/2 AL m'pce, and I guarantee it can be done. If you're careful tuning the 2nd + 3rd valve slide, use the right fingerings, really go for the notes and accept what comes out as valid (I mean, it's not a .547 or even .525 sound down there, let alone a bass trombone...but it works...), you can make some music and support a strong trombone section. Also...Bob Brookmeyer played lead on the Thad Jones/Mel Lewis Band for years on very similar equipment to what I use. He wasn't the typical "lead player", but it worked. I've been told Thad liked the way the brightness and valve phrasing linked up the trumpet and trombone sections, acting as a kind of bridge between them in ensemble passages. I can see how that might work. So...enough about the valve trombone. Now valve trombone PLAYERS...that's what we're really talking about, and you're right, many of them sound like sheep w/intestinal problems. But the horn...no. Twenty generations of Spanish, Italian and American band players can't ALL be wrong, and that's what I see people playing in old photos...valve trombones of all descriptions. Let me tell you a little valve trombone story. I was in Dillon Music once several years ago,looking at horns. For those of you that don't know, Dillon is a NJ brass shop that, among other things, has literally hundreds of used brass instruments hanging on the walls, and there are always several people trying them in different rooms. This day it was quite busy, and as I assiduously tried various trombones, a very robust looking man in his 70s came in accompanied by a younger man. I didn't really pay much attention to him, but he looked Italian. Italian Italian, not American Italian. His shirt, his shoes, his haircut, his suspenders, the big mustache...country or working class Italian. And in fact, I soon overheard him speaking Italian w/his companion. I didn't pay much attention to him, but about three minutes later I heard this TREMENDOUS sound behind me...florid vibrato, volume enough to be heard across the piazza in good sized Italian town, an incredibly "different" sound than any I had ever heard live before. Shocking, like time travel. Playing an operatic aria of some sort the way Bordogni must have been sung before it was Frenchified into the Rochuts, or the way Nino Rota wanted his music to sound in Fellini's films. Raw. Italian soul music. I turned around, and it was that guy, playing an old valve trombone that had been on the wall. Now here's the funny part. I loved it...everyone else in the place HATED it. Sour faces, shaking heads, kind of "How DARE he plau that way? So crude, so vulgar...!!!!" Why? BECAUSE HE WAS DIFFERENT. No other reason. That, and the difference was loud. He was in tune; he was playing the right notes; he just wasn't being polite about it, and obviously didn't give a good goddamn what anybody thought one way or another. Cracked me up, the whole scene. After the shock of the new had worn off and everybody went back to whatever they thought they were doing, he and I were both left alone in the trombone room. (A big enough room that we weren't really in each other's way.) I didn't want to bother him, and it appeared that he spoke no English...his friend was interpreting when they talked to salespeople...so I just went about my business. At the time, I was trying to find something that played as well as my old slide tuning 76H (I guess I still am, actually, although my .525 Shires is pretty close...better in some respects...), and I was playing the 76H and then A-B-ing it w/a couple of other horns. It was becoming obvious to me that the other horns weren't in the Conn's class, but I was hoping... Anyway, one time just after I had played the Conn for a few minutes, I happened to look up and there this guy was, suspenders and all, looking at me. He put his finger up to his nose, pointed at the 76H, and gave me a wink and a look that was right out of every Fellini film I have ever seen..."Ayyyy, THAT'S the one !!!!" he was saying. We both started laughing...I guess he knew that I dug his playing, and I guess he had dug mine...soon after we went on our separate ways. Now I tell this story not to tell a story about an old Italian man, or even about valve trombones, really...it's a story about difference and idiom. All those horns that were made so "differently" from the ones we are playing today were a result of the collaboration between serious players and equally serious makers, and, given whatever limitations of manufacturing technique existed at the time they were made, they were valid for their time and place. A nasal sounding Conn 2H...what were they, around .465 bore w/a 6 1/2" bell...in the hands of Arthur Pryor or the other virtuosi of the time, WORKED. And so do valve trombones. Bet on it. Some hundred years from now, if people keep playing music in a manner that is in some way evolutionary from the way we play today, some player in some Dillon equivalent shop is going to hear some old guy playing a ,547 Edwards w/a Thayer on it in the style of Joe Alessi and think to himself "Why did they EVER play instruments that didn't have electromagnetic valves and automatic pitch compensation systems? And it sounds so TUBBY !!!" So it turns... Later... S,. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:47:23 -0500 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: valve trombone > Sam typed: I have played his parts on a .500 bore Conn valve section and several different bells in The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra using a stock 6 1/2 AL m'pce, and I guarantee it can be done. If you're careful tuning the 2nd + 3rd valve slide, use the right fingerings, really go for the notes and accept what comes out as valid (I mean, it's not a .547 or even .525 sound down there, let alone a bass trombone...but it works...), you can make some music and support a strong trombone section. snip I just want to add: For ANY of you, if you've not heard our own "Sabutin" play live, you are missing a real treat. This man can flat out play! And I'e heard him play VALVE Trombone, and SLIDE Trombone, in his element: Jazz. I agree, Sam. It is NOT the instrument, as much as the player. Tom (who owns & plays several Valve Trombones as well as slide models) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:53:30 -0500 From: Nick Walenczak Subject: Frank Sinatra Dear all, On behalf of a friend, I promised to relay an inquiry to the list. I know this is a trombone list... but maybe someone here has heard of Charlie Turner... or atleast Frank Sinatra. Without further adue, here's his message... let me know if any of you have any leads. ===================================================== Does anyone know how to get in touch with Charlie Turner, the lead trumpeter for Frank Sinatra. I've been trying to find him for many years. He hails from Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm an old 59 year old "has-been", formerly lead with Don Ellis, Lionel Hampton, Tito Puente. Any help would be welcome! Paul Bogosian ===================================================== -Nick Walenczak Bass Trombonist Williamsville, NY -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:05:40 -0500 From: Nick Walenczak Subject: Re: valve trombone Hmmm... This summer was one of the few times when I've heard a valve trombone... other than when my band director way back when pulled out his valve trombone to play with our Trombone Choir (he was a trumpet player). None of them sounded really great... but I am open to new experiences. If you know of any good recordings of valve trombonists, let me know. I'd be glad to check them out. Juan Tizol played well, though I really don't have too many recordings of the Duke's band... oddly enough. (If I understand correctly, didn't Tizol write many of Ellington's pieces?). Any recordings would be great, Thanks, -Nick ----- Original Message ----- From: sabutin Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:06:58 -0400 To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] valve trombone > > >I've heard valve trombone sound VERY good in > >>acoustic settings. Not symphonic settings, of > >> course, but jazz types. > > > >Let's just say that there's good reason why you rarely see a valve > >trombone in a sympnoic orhestra, ne? > > > >I took over a place in a summer group not too long ago from a valve > >trombonist. She was reading the bass trombone part on her small bore > >valve T-bone. Perhaps it sounds better in a higher register... but > >in my range it's the most grotesque, unflattering sound you've ever > >heard. > > > > > >-Nick Walenczak > >Bass Trombonist > >Williamsville, NY > >-- > ================== > > Just for general interest's sake... > > A little known fact is that Juan Tizol played all the third parts > on Duke Ellington's band, and was an integral part of perhaps the > best sounding (to my ears, anyway) jazz trombone section to ever > play. I have listened very carefully to the recordings, and he > sounded GREAT in the low register. On a King trombone pitched in C > !!! (Maybe slightly larger bore than normal...I've heard different > reports about that.) > > I have played his parts on a .500 bore Conn valve section and > several different bells in The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra > using a stock 6 1/2 AL m'pce, and I guarantee it can be done. If > you're careful tuning the 2nd + 3rd valve slide, use the right > fingerings, really go for the notes and accept what comes out as > valid (I mean, it's not a .547 or even .525 sound down there, let > alone a bass trombone...but it works...), you can make some music and > support a strong trombone section. > > Also...Bob Brookmeyer played lead on the Thad Jones/Mel Lewis Band > for years on very similar equipment to what I use. He wasn't the > typical "lead player", but it worked. I've been told Thad liked the > way the brightness and valve phrasing linked up the trumpet and > trombone sections, acting as a kind of bridge between them in > ensemble passages. I can see how that might work. > > So...enough about the valve trombone. > > Now valve trombone PLAYERS...that's what we're really talking > about, and you're right, many of them sound like sheep w/intestinal > problems. But the horn...no. > > Twenty generations of Spanish, Italian and American band players > can't ALL be wrong, and that's what I see people playing in old > photos...valve trombones of all descriptions. > > Let me tell you a little valve trombone story. I was in Dillon > Music once several years ago,looking at horns. For those of you that > don't know, Dillon is a NJ brass shop that, among other things, has > literally hundreds of used brass instruments hanging on the walls, > and there are always several people trying them in different rooms. > This day it was quite busy, and as I assiduously tried various > trombones, a very robust looking man in his 70s came in accompanied > by a younger man. I didn't really pay much attention to him, but he > looked Italian. Italian Italian, not American Italian. His shirt, his > shoes, his haircut, his suspenders, the big mustache...country or > working class Italian. And in fact, I soon overheard him speaking > Italian w/his companion. > > I didn't pay much attention to him, but about three minutes later > I heard this TREMENDOUS sound behind me...florid vibrato, volume > enough to be heard across the piazza in good sized Italian town, an > incredibly "different" sound than any I had ever heard live before. > Shocking, like time travel. Playing an operatic aria of some sort the > way Bordogni must have been sung before it was Frenchified into the > Rochuts, or the way Nino Rota wanted his music to sound in Fellini's > films. Raw. Italian soul music. I turned around, and it was that guy, > playing an old valve trombone that had been on the wall. > > Now here's the funny part. I loved it...everyone else in the place > HATED it. Sour faces, shaking heads, kind of "How DARE he plau that > way? So crude, so vulgar...!!!!" > > Why? > > BECAUSE HE WAS DIFFERENT. > > No other reason. That, and the difference was loud. He was in > tune; he was playing the right notes; he just wasn't being polite > about it, and obviously didn't give a good goddamn what anybody > thought one way or another. > > Cracked me up, the whole scene. > > After the shock of the new had worn off and everybody went back to > whatever they thought they were doing, he and I were both left alone > in the trombone room. (A big enough room that we weren't really in > each other's way.) I didn't want to bother him, and it appeared that > he spoke no English...his friend was interpreting when they talked to > salespeople...so I just went about my business. > > At the time, I was trying to find something that played as well as > my old slide tuning 76H (I guess I still am, actually, although my > .525 Shires is pretty close...better in some respects...), and I was > playing the 76H and then A-B-ing it w/a couple of other horns. It was > becoming obvious to me that the other horns weren't in the Conn's > class, but I was hoping... Anyway, one time just after I had played > the Conn for a few minutes, I happened to look up and there this guy > was, suspenders and all, looking at me. He put his finger up to his > nose, pointed at the 76H, and gave me a wink and a look that was > right out of every Fellini film I have ever seen..."Ayyyy, THAT'S the > one !!!!" he was saying. We both started laughing...I guess he knew > that I dug his playing, and I guess he had dug mine...soon after we > went on our separate ways. > > Now I tell this story not to tell a story about an old Italian > man, or even about valve trombones, really...it's a story about > difference and idiom. > > All those horns that were made so "differently" from the ones we > are playing today were a result of the collaboration between serious > players and equally serious makers, and, given whatever limitations > of manufacturing technique existed at the time they were made, they > were valid for their time and place. > > A nasal sounding Conn 2H...what were they, around .465 bore w/a 6 > 1/2" bell...in the hands of Arthur Pryor or the other virtuosi of the > time, WORKED. > > And so do valve trombones. Bet on it. > > Some hundred years from now, if people keep playing music in a > manner that is in some way evolutionary from the way we play today, > some player in some Dillon equivalent shop is going to hear some old > guy playing a ,547 Edwards w/a Thayer on it in the style of Joe > Alessi and think to himself "Why did they EVER play instruments that > didn't have electromagnetic valves and automatic pitch compensation > systems? And it sounds so TUBBY !!!" > > So it turns... > > Later... > > S,. > -- __________________________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:14:05 -0400 From: Dale Cruse Subject: Re: valve trombone Two of the most famous tunes Juan Tizol wrote are "Caravan" and "Perdido." Good stuff. Both standards. For recordings, in addition to Tizol, check out Bob Brookmeyer, Rob McConnell, and (if you can find them (and if you can, please let me know)) Ashley Alexander playing the SuperBone. Good luck. --- Dale Cruse dale@dalecruse.com www.dalecruse.com On 9/15/02 10:05 PM, "Nick Walenczak" wrote: > Hmmm... > > This summer was one of the few times when I've heard a valve trombone... other > than when my band director way back when pulled out his valve trombone to play > with our Trombone Choir (he was a trumpet player). None of them sounded really > great... but I am open to new experiences. If you know of any good recordings > of valve trombonists, let me know. I'd be glad to check them out. > > Juan Tizol played well, though I really don't have too many recordings of the > Duke's band... oddly enough. (If I understand correctly, didn't Tizol write > many of Ellington's pieces?). > > Any recordings would be great, > > Thanks, > > -Nick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: sabutin > Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:06:58 -0400 > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] valve trombone > > >>>> I've heard valve trombone sound VERY good in >>>> acoustic settings. Not symphonic settings, of >>>> course, but jazz types. >>> >>> Let's just say that there's good reason why you rarely see a valve >>> trombone in a sympnoic orhestra, ne? >>> >>> I took over a place in a summer group not too long ago from a valve >>> trombonist. She was reading the bass trombone part on her small bore >>> valve T-bone. Perhaps it sounds better in a higher register... but >>> in my range it's the most grotesque, unflattering sound you've ever >>> heard. >>> >>> >>> -Nick Walenczak >>> Bass Trombonist >>> Williamsville, NY >>> -- >> ================== >> >> Just for general interest's sake... >> >> A little known fact is that Juan Tizol played all the third parts >> on Duke Ellington's band, and was an integral part of perhaps the >> best sounding (to my ears, anyway) jazz trombone section to ever >> play. I have listened very carefully to the recordings, and he >> sounded GREAT in the low register. On a King trombone pitched in C >> !!! (Maybe slightly larger bore than normal...I've heard different >> reports about that.) >> >> I have played his parts on a .500 bore Conn valve section and >> several different bells in The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra >> using a stock 6 1/2 AL m'pce, and I guarantee it can be done. If >> you're careful tuning the 2nd + 3rd valve slide, use the right >> fingerings, really go for the notes and accept what comes out as >> valid (I mean, it's not a .547 or even .525 sound down there, let >> alone a bass trombone...but it works...), you can make some music and >> support a strong trombone section. >> >> Also...Bob Brookmeyer played lead on the Thad Jones/Mel Lewis Band >> for years on very similar equipment to what I use. He wasn't the >> typical "lead player", but it worked. I've been told Thad liked the >> way the brightness and valve phrasing linked up the trumpet and >> trombone sections, acting as a kind of bridge between them in >> ensemble passages. I can see how that might work. >> >> So...enough about the valve trombone. >> >> Now valve trombone PLAYERS...that's what we're really talking >> about, and you're right, many of them sound like sheep w/intestinal >> problems. But the horn...no. >> >> Twenty generations of Spanish, Italian and American band players >> can't ALL be wrong, and that's what I see people playing in old >> photos...valve trombones of all descriptions. >> >> Let me tell you a little valve trombone story. I was in Dillon >> Music once several years ago,looking at horns. For those of you that >> don't know, Dillon is a NJ brass shop that, among other things, has >> literally hundreds of used brass instruments hanging on the walls, >> and there are always several people trying them in different rooms. >> This day it was quite busy, and as I assiduously tried various >> trombones, a very robust looking man in his 70s came in accompanied >> by a younger man. I didn't really pay much attention to him, but he >> looked Italian. Italian Italian, not American Italian. His shirt, his >> shoes, his haircut, his suspenders, the big mustache...country or >> working class Italian. And in fact, I soon overheard him speaking >> Italian w/his companion. >> >> I didn't pay much attention to him, but about three minutes later >> I heard this TREMENDOUS sound behind me...florid vibrato, volume >> enough to be heard across the piazza in good sized Italian town, an >> incredibly "different" sound than any I had ever heard live before. >> Shocking, like time travel. Playing an operatic aria of some sort the >> way Bordogni must have been sung before it was Frenchified into the >> Rochuts, or the way Nino Rota wanted his music to sound in Fellini's >> films. Raw. Italian soul music. I turned around, and it was that guy, >> playing an old valve trombone that had been on the wall. >> >> Now here's the funny part. I loved it...everyone else in the place >> HATED it. Sour faces, shaking heads, kind of "How DARE he plau that >> way? So crude, so vulgar...!!!!" >> >> Why? >> >> BECAUSE HE WAS DIFFERENT. >> >> No other reason. That, and the difference was loud. He was in >> tune; he was playing the right notes; he just wasn't being polite >> about it, and obviously didn't give a good goddamn what anybody >> thought one way or another. >> >> Cracked me up, the whole scene. >> >> After the shock of the new had worn off and everybody went back to >> whatever they thought they were doing, he and I were both left alone >> in the trombone room. (A big enough room that we weren't really in >> each other's way.) I didn't want to bother him, and it appeared that >> he spoke no English...his friend was interpreting when they talked to >> salespeople...so I just went about my business. >> >> At the time, I was trying to find something that played as well as >> my old slide tuning 76H (I guess I still am, actually, although my >> .525 Shires is pretty close...better in some respects...), and I was >> playing the 76H and then A-B-ing it w/a couple of other horns. It was >> becoming obvious to me that the other horns weren't in the Conn's >> class, but I was hoping... Anyway, one time just after I had played >> the Conn for a few minutes, I happened to look up and there this guy >> was, suspenders and all, looking at me. He put his finger up to his >> nose, pointed at the 76H, and gave me a wink and a look that was >> right out of every Fellini film I have ever seen..."Ayyyy, THAT'S the >> one !!!!" he was saying. We both started laughing...I guess he knew >> that I dug his playing, and I guess he had dug mine...soon after we >> went on our separate ways. >> >> Now I tell this story not to tell a story about an old Italian >> man, or even about valve trombones, really...it's a story about >> difference and idiom. >> >> All those horns that were made so "differently" from the ones we >> are playing today were a result of the collaboration between serious >> players and equally serious makers, and, given whatever limitations >> of manufacturing technique existed at the time they were made, they >> were valid for their time and place. >> >> A nasal sounding Conn 2H...what were they, around .465 bore w/a 6 >> 1/2" bell...in the hands of Arthur Pryor or the other virtuosi of the >> time, WORKED. >> >> And so do valve trombones. Bet on it. >> >> Some hundred years from now, if people keep playing music in a >> manner that is in some way evolutionary from the way we play today, >> some player in some Dillon equivalent shop is going to hear some old >> guy playing a ,547 Edwards w/a Thayer on it in the style of Joe >> Alessi and think to himself "Why did they EVER play instruments that >> didn't have electromagnetic valves and automatic pitch compensation >> systems? And it sounds so TUBBY !!!" >> >> So it turns... >> >> Later... >> >> S,. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 20:14:51 -0500 From: "Jerry P. Gordon" Subject: Re: valve trombone I have often thought it would be wonderful to hear Sam play live. However, I live in Boulder Colorado -- far from the locales where Sam is apt to play. I keep thinking that he will someday take some time off from his on-line participation and record an album. Jerry (I don't own a valve trombone, although I do own a flugelbone -- which I don't play very well. The problem, unfortunately, has nothing to do with the instrument.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Izzo" To: Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 6:47 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] valve trombone > > > Sam typed: > > I have played his parts on a .500 bore Conn valve section and > several different bells in The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra > using a stock 6 1/2 AL m'pce, and I guarantee it can be done. If > you're careful tuning the 2nd + 3rd valve slide, use the right > fingerings, really go for the notes and accept what comes out as > valid (I mean, it's not a .547 or even .525 sound down there, let > alone a bass trombone...but it works...), you can make some music and > support a strong trombone section. > > snip > > I just want to add: > For ANY of you, if you've not heard our own "Sabutin" play live, you are > missing a real treat. This man can flat out play! And I'e heard him play > VALVE Trombone, and SLIDE Trombone, in his element: Jazz. > I agree, Sam. It is NOT the instrument, as much as the player. > > Tom > (who owns & plays several Valve Trombones as well as slide models) > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 21:29:44 -0500 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: valve trombone Jerry, Sam HAS recorded albums. OK Sam--Time for a shamless plug---- Go for it. Tom I have often thought it would be wonderful to hear Sam play live. However, I live in Boulder Colorado -- far from the locales where Sam is apt to play. I keep thinking that he will someday take some time off from his on-line participation and record an album. Jerry (I don't own a valve trombone, although I do own a flugelbone -- which I don't play very well. The problem, unfortunately, has nothing to do with the instrument.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Izzo" To: Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 6:47 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] valve trombone > > > Sam typed: > > I have played his parts on a .500 bore Conn valve section and > several different bells in The Smithsonian Jazz Masterworks Orchestra > using a stock 6 1/2 AL m'pce, and I guarantee it can be done. If > you're careful tuning the 2nd + 3rd valve slide, use the right > fingerings, really go for the notes and accept what comes out as > valid (I mean, it's not a .547 or even .525 sound down there, let > alone a bass trombone...but it works...), you can make some music and > support a strong trombone section. > > snip > > I just want to add: > For ANY of you, if you've not heard our own "Sabutin" play live, you are > missing a real treat. This man can flat out play! And I'e heard him play > VALVE Trombone, and SLIDE Trombone, in his element: Jazz. > I agree, Sam. It is NOT the instrument, as much as the player. > > Tom > (who owns & plays several Valve Trombones as well as slide models) > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:54:14 EDT From: BassBonist@AOL.COM Subject: Re: This Is London article from Jay Heltzer > My hearing is still very sensitive despite having sat in front > of lead trumpet players and drummers in the past but I'm > only 37. > Jeff Oien Jeff and List: I am 41 years old, have been playing in a variety of ensembles for the past 28 years and still have very keen hearing. I think that the factor that has made a difference for me is that I am usually: 1) A back row player, or at least sit where there is no one else playing into the back of my head except percussion, 2) Not doing many dance band gigs anymore where the trumpets are trying to split my mellon, 3) Using ear protection (on one side) if I am within five feet or less of a crash cymbal, speaker, or a painfully loud player of any instrument for extended periods. Duration is probably the key. I think that relatively short duration (10 minutes) of loud playing in your direction can be tolerated. It's when you get into the quiet of your car after a job and your ears are ringing, that's a danger signal. Matt Varho ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:58:24 EDT From: BassBonist@AOL.COM Subject: Re: What first interested YOU in the trombone? So many reasons that cannot be fully expressed with words, but this reason sums it up best for me: "George Roberts" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 22:27:14 -0500 From: Galen Tieszen Subject: Re: What first interested YOU in the trombone? My story isn't THAT interesting, but here goes. My father was a teacher, so as a very young child (probably about 3 or 4 years old), I went to a basketball game and saw the "pep" band play. The thing that interested me the most was that kid who kept swollowing that piece of pipe. Darn thing kept going in an out of his mouth and down his throat!!-- just COULDN'T figure it out!! (remember -- 3 or 4 years old!). I went home and discovered that an adjustable curtine-rod made a nice substitute so I pretended -- (didn't swollow the curtine-rod though.) When I finished third grade my folks gave me a used Elkhart Pan Am for my birthday, so now I had a REAL horn. (Interesting, that I noticed one of the other Galen's -- there are 3 of us on the list -- started with a Pan Am also.) Took lessons during the summer, then had to wait a semester before "beginning" band started after Christmas. Jr High arrived, and since I was the biggest kid in band, and since the band had no Tuba player, I too became a multi-instrument specialist. Played Sousaphone through Jr High, HATED marching!! High school was next, and since the old Pan Am was kind of beat up, I asked about using a school horn. Now don't cry, but my choices were and 88H or a 72H. I got the 72H. Really liked that horn, and I really liked playing the 4th part in band, and stage band. Now on to college. Had to leave the 72H behind, but got a large bore, single rotor King. Don't recall the model, but I just didn't like it as well as the 72H. I did have the oppertunity though to purchase an immaculate 72H from an instrumental instructor for $350 (1973 price) since he was getting, I think a 62H? (double rotor bass). But since I used my playing more for relaxation and enjoyment, and since it might as well have been $350,000 to a college student, I passed. I frequently wished I had a decent bass to mess around with over the years, but the price was always too high, and I just couldn't justify spending so much on something that would get so little use, so I did without until last spring when I found an Olds S-20 in an antique shop and got it for $90. Sent it to the Slide Dr. and now I can play in church, or community band. Sure feels good to play again. Really enjoy postings from the list -- keep it up. Galen Tieszen Wellington, KS ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 14 Sep 2002 to 15 Sep 2002 (#2002-64) ****************************************************************