Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 10 Sep 2002 to 11 Sep 2002 (#2002-60) There are 35 messages totalling 1417 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. TROMBONE THEFT (5) 2. Chicago was RE: [TBN-L] International Trombone Association/Festival-New Directions 3. Chicago was RE: [TBN-L] International Trombone Association/Festival-New Directions 4. Please keep this family in your prayers. 5. Feels so good! (7) 6. Watzit? (6) 7. Doug and the Pugh (2) 8. ITA...Diversity... 9. the 3, 33, 66 rule (8) 10. Old Conn Bass Collectors Take Note 11. 12. David Gibson's "MAYA" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 01:41:08 EDT From: Edcox1@AOL.COM Subject: TROMBONE THEFT A guitar-playing friend sent me this "true story." There was this trombone player driving home from a late night gig Feeling tired, he pulls into eatery for some coffee. While waiting to pay, he remembers that he locked his car doors but left his trombone in plain view on the back seat of his car! He rushes out only to realize that he is too late. The back window of his car was smashed and somebody had thrown in two more trombones. If any of you can think of an appropriate response to this guy, let me know and I will make sure he gets it. Ed Cox ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 19:32:48 +0100 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Chicago was RE: [TBN-L] International Trombone Association/Festival-New Directions From: "D.J. Kennedy" > so far no modern trombonist as prominent as kenny g or chuch > mangione has come along Kenny G and Chuck Mangione play trombone? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:22:57 +0100 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Chicago was RE: [TBN-L] International Trombone Association/Festival-New Directions From: "Jeff Albert" > You should check out some Chicago. Calling their music unsophisticated > would lead me to believe that you simply aren't familiar with it. It > has mixed meters, interesting harmonies, trombone solos...all the stuff > that really cool sophisticated music has. The biggest difference is > Chicago also has a large audience. I was in fact referring my comments on sophistication to the beginnings of rock & roll and to the music that the majority of kids listen to today. Of course, rock music has evolved, and in some areas to the good and benefit of the discerning listener, and in others unfortunately, to the utter degradation of the musical art form. Rock rhythms in the areas of jazz/funk have of course become more exciting and sophisticated. Russel Garcia teaches that the three major elements of music are in order of importance: rhythm, melody and harmony. Melody and harmony in fact have rhythms of their own making. I'm not sure where counterpoint and form come into this equation. I guess counterpoint is equal with melody and form is in fact rhythm on a much larger scale. As an arranger, my interest bends towards lush harmonies, but I cannot deny that I am excited by complex and intertwining rhythms, especially those of Afro-Cuban origin, but not forgetting the contrapuntal cross rhythms of J.S.Bach. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 06:24:41 -0400 From: john burton Subject: Re: TROMBONE THEFT He tried the first 'bone, found it was too hard.. The second (predictably) was too soft, so all the while he just kept coming back to his old favorite, it was "just right"... -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Edcox1@AOL.COM Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 1:41 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] TROMBONE THEFT A guitar-playing friend sent me this "true story." There was this trombone player driving home from a late night gig Feeling tired, he pulls into eatery for some coffee. While waiting to pay, he remembers that he locked his car doors but left his trombone in plain view on the back seat of his car! He rushes out only to realize that he is too late. The back window of his car was smashed and somebody had thrown in two more trombones. If any of you can think of an appropriate response to this guy, let me know and I will make sure he gets it. Ed Cox ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 06:10:55 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: TROMBONE THEFT That's an accordion joke. Tell your guitar player friend to quit plagiarizing. It's not like there aren't enough trombone jokes out there. You know how to get a guitarist to turn down...put music in front of him. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE- > L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Edcox1@AOL.COM > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:41 AM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] TROMBONE THEFT > > A guitar-playing friend sent me this "true story." > > There was this trombone player driving home from a late night gig > Feeling tired, he pulls into eatery for some coffee. While waiting > to pay, he remembers that he locked his car doors but left his > trombone in plain view on the back seat of his car! > > He rushes out only to realize that he is too late. The back window > of his car was smashed and somebody had thrown in two more > trombones. > > If any of you can think of an appropriate response to this guy, let me > know > and I will make sure he gets it. > > Ed Cox ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 07:54:59 -0500 From: Dean McCarty Subject: Please keep this family in your prayers. Friends and Family: Please keep the family of Caleb Crump and Andy = Guthrie in your prayers. Last night around 8:00 PM Caleb was driving = Andy home and lost control of his car. Caleb was killed and Andy is in = the hospital. Caleb, who was 17 years old, leaves behind his parents, = and 7 brothers and sisters... he was the oldest, and had just received = another baby brother a couple of months ago. Caleb, a French horn player at Vidor High School, also played off and on = in the Worship Orchestra that I direct at FBC. He is also the boyfriend = of my niece, who understandably is not doing well at all. =20 Andy Guthrie, as far as I know, is ok, but in the hospital. Caleb's = parents names' are Jody and Marilyn... please keep them in your prayers = so that they can remain strong for their other 7 children that are sure = to have many different emotions in the coming months. Thank you, Dean McCarty ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 05:51:30 -0700 From: Brian Frederiksen Subject: Re: TROMBONE THEFT A take off on a joke going around years in Chicago during the Green Bay Packers bad days. There is another variation that the guy who left the other tickets got caught and the judge sentenced him to go to the game. Brian Frederiksen WindSong Press PO Box 146 Gurnee, Illinois 60030 brianf@windsongpress.com www.windsongpress.com Phone 847 223-4586 Fax 847 223-4580 brianf@windsongpress.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 10:41 PM Subject: [TBN-L] TROMBONE THEFT > A guitar-playing friend sent me this "true story." > > There was this trombone player driving home from a late night gig > Feeling tired, he pulls into eatery for some coffee. While waiting > to pay, he remembers that he locked his car doors but left his > trombone in plain view on the back seat of his car! > > He rushes out only to realize that he is too late. The back window > of his car was smashed and somebody had thrown in two more > trombones. > > If any of you can think of an appropriate response to this guy, let me know > and I will make sure he gets it. > > Ed Cox > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:01:30 +0000 From: Jason Akai Subject: Feels so good! Oh my Did someone actually bring up Chuck Mangione and Kenny G on this list? Next thing you know, someone will tell us what a great genius Yanni is. Ok, I take that back - I love Chuck's work too. Kenny G - well, actually its because of him I have grown to dislike the sax sound - specifically the soprano sax. And, the truth is America (where much of the world's popularity is driven) isn't really interested, as a whole, in talent. What they seem to be interested in is something that has breasts in smallish outfits, or stupid guys who "sing" harmonies and do stupid dances all over the stage. I just saw American Pie 2. I cringed when Jason (character name Jim) tried to play the bone upside down. And then at the end when he threw the horn??? I mean, sure its a student horn, but for the love of GOD! It was worse than watching a scary movie! It was horrible for those for have not seen it yet. But - that's my point. People don't care anymore about people like us. There are some who do, but their numbers are few and far between. I dont know about your groups - but all of the bands I play for usually draw the 75 and over crowd - and the younger ones come because their loved ones are in the band. Or - maybe the problem has been that the level of excellence we've achieved so far has not been as excellent as we can - and if someone were to really shoot out - bigger and better than any trombonist you can name present or past - then the bone would be on the map. Ok, enough of my rambling. Have a great day. Jason _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 08:18:37 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: TROMBONE THEFT At 05:51 AM 9/11/2002 -0700, Brian Frederiksen wrote: >A take off on a joke going around years in Chicago during the Green Bay >Packers bad days. There is another variation that the guy who left the other >tickets got caught and the judge sentenced him to go to the game. The way I heard the story, it was a trombone-playing Packers fan who broke into the grocery store one night and left a bushel of Brussels sprouts in the produce section. True story. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 11:13:16 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Feels so good! yeah if pamela anderson learned trombone that would be a bust ---i mean a boost Jason Akai wrote: > Oh my > > Did someone actually bring up Chuck Mangione and Kenny G on this list? Next > thing you know, someone will tell us what a great genius Yanni is. > > Ok, I take that back - I love Chuck's work too. Kenny G - well, actually > its because of him I have grown to dislike the sax sound - specifically the > soprano sax. > > And, the truth is America (where much of the world's popularity is driven) > isn't really interested, as a whole, in talent. What they seem to be > interested in is something that has breasts in smallish outfits, or stupid > guys who "sing" harmonies and do stupid dances all over the stage. > > I just saw American Pie 2. I cringed when Jason (character name Jim) tried > to play the bone upside down. And then at the end when he threw the horn??? > I mean, sure its a student horn, but for the love of GOD! It was worse > than watching a scary movie! It was horrible for those for have not seen it > yet. > > But - that's my point. People don't care anymore about people like us. > There are some who do, but their numbers are few and far between. I dont > know about your groups - but all of the bands I play for usually draw the 75 > and over crowd - and the younger ones come because their loved ones are in > the band. > > Or - maybe the problem has been that the level of excellence we've achieved > so far has not been as excellent as we can - and if someone were to really > shoot out - bigger and better than any trombonist you can name present or > past - then the bone would be on the map. > > Ok, enough of my rambling. Have a great day. > > Jason > > _________________________________________________________________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:38:01 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Watzit? It could also be an alto trumpet in F. Second partial would be C, and very flat with a trombone mouthpiece jammed in it. J.c. Sherman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:48:58 +0000 From: alan partis Subject: Re: Feels so good! At 01:01 PM 09/11/2002, Jason Akai wrote: >But - that's my point. People don't care anymore about people like us. >There are some who do, but their numbers are few and far between. I dont >know about your groups - but all of the bands I play for usually draw the 75 >and over crowd - and the younger ones come because their loved ones are in >the band. On my way to work this morning, I was thinking about the thread here regarding how to expand the reach and the interest of the ITA as well as the thread sounding the death knell of the trombone in general. Even though I play the trombone, first and foremost I consider myself a musician and have found over time that music is very important to me. But that's exactly my point: it's important to me. I make music purely for my own enjoyment as it gives me great solitude. I don't necessarily make music purely for my own consumption (I greatly enjoy playing for an audience), and I feel strongly that music should be a strong influence on my children's lives, but most of my satisfaction comes simply from making music. So I don't really care whether audiences are small or if my kids, like me in my teenage years, are drawn to the pop music of the day, or whether there are trombonists in prominent spots in the pop culture. I'm not looking to change other people, I'm looking out only for my own enjoyment and satisfaction. Like the subject of this thread, I play, and I suspect a great deal of others do as well, simply because it "Feels so good!" and that's all that really matters. Music itself, is in no danger of dying off. Soap box off ... ______________________________________ alan partis, amateur bonehead louisville, ky ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:19:41 -0400 From: Dale Cruse Subject: Re: Feels so good! While he's not as sexy as Pam, actor Jonathan Frakes (Commander Riker from Star Trek: The Next Generation) does play trombone and has done so once or twice on the show. He's no virtuoso, but so what? Has anyone ever approached him about doing PSAs to help recruit kids to play the ol' sliphorn? What about inviting him to the ITF? It would certainly attract some media attention. And since he's part of Star Trek history, we KNOW he does conventions. And surely there are a few other famous people who "also" play trombone. Ideas? --- Dale Cruse dale@dalecruse.com www.dalecruse.com On 9/11/02 12:13 PM, "D.J. Kennedy" wrote: > yeah if pamela anderson learned trombone that would be a bust ---i mean a > boost > > Jason Akai wrote: > >> Oh my >> >> Did someone actually bring up Chuck Mangione and Kenny G on this list? Next >> thing you know, someone will tell us what a great genius Yanni is. >> >> Ok, I take that back - I love Chuck's work too. Kenny G - well, actually >> its because of him I have grown to dislike the sax sound - specifically the >> soprano sax. >> >> And, the truth is America (where much of the world's popularity is driven) >> isn't really interested, as a whole, in talent. What they seem to be >> interested in is something that has breasts in smallish outfits, or stupid >> guys who "sing" harmonies and do stupid dances all over the stage. >> >> I just saw American Pie 2. I cringed when Jason (character name Jim) tried >> to play the bone upside down. And then at the end when he threw the horn??? >> I mean, sure its a student horn, but for the love of GOD! It was worse >> than watching a scary movie! It was horrible for those for have not seen it >> yet. >> >> But - that's my point. People don't care anymore about people like us. >> There are some who do, but their numbers are few and far between. I dont >> know about your groups - but all of the bands I play for usually draw the 75 >> and over crowd - and the younger ones come because their loved ones are in >> the band. >> >> Or - maybe the problem has been that the level of excellence we've achieved >> so far has not been as excellent as we can - and if someone were to really >> shoot out - bigger and better than any trombonist you can name present or >> past - then the bone would be on the map. >> >> Ok, enough of my rambling. Have a great day. >> >> Jason ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:47:25 -0500 From: s76lewis Subject: Re: Feels so good! Hi Dale, That's a good idea, but wouldn't it be nerve-wracking to get up and play in front of serious trombonists? He would be a wonderful speaker of course. Doe anyone know which Star Trek crew will be in the next S.T.movie this fall? He could do a spot for one of the instrument companies. Weekend Warriors (like him) do know their horns. Sandy Lewis (original series watcher) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Cruse" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:19 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Feels so good! > While he's not as sexy as Pam, actor Jonathan Frakes (Commander Riker from > Star Trek: The Next Generation) does play trombone and has done so once or > twice on the show. He's no virtuoso, but so what? Has anyone ever approached > him about doing PSAs to help recruit kids to play the ol' sliphorn? What > about inviting him to the ITF? It would certainly attract some media > attention. And since he's part of Star Trek history, we KNOW he does > conventions. And surely there are a few other famous people who "also" play > trombone. Ideas? > --- > Dale Cruse > dale@dalecruse.com > www.dalecruse.com > > On 9/11/02 12:13 PM, "D.J. Kennedy" wrote: > > > yeah if pamela anderson learned trombone that would be a bust ---i mean a > > boost > > > > Jason Akai wrote: > > > >> Oh my > >> > >> Did someone actually bring up Chuck Mangione and Kenny G on this list? Next > >> thing you know, someone will tell us what a great genius Yanni is. > >> > >> Ok, I take that back - I love Chuck's work too. Kenny G - well, actually > >> its because of him I have grown to dislike the sax sound - specifically the > >> soprano sax. > >> > >> And, the truth is America (where much of the world's popularity is driven) > >> isn't really interested, as a whole, in talent. What they seem to be > >> interested in is something that has breasts in smallish outfits, or stupid > >> guys who "sing" harmonies and do stupid dances all over the stage. > >> > >> I just saw American Pie 2. I cringed when Jason (character name Jim) tried > >> to play the bone upside down. And then at the end when he threw the horn??? > >> I mean, sure its a student horn, but for the love of GOD! It was worse > >> than watching a scary movie! It was horrible for those for have not seen it > >> yet. > >> > >> But - that's my point. People don't care anymore about people like us. > >> There are some who do, but their numbers are few and far between. I dont > >> know about your groups - but all of the bands I play for usually draw the 75 > >> and over crowd - and the younger ones come because their loved ones are in > >> the band. > >> > >> Or - maybe the problem has been that the level of excellence we've achieved > >> so far has not been as excellent as we can - and if someone were to really > >> shoot out - bigger and better than any trombonist you can name present or > >> past - then the bone would be on the map. > >> > >> Ok, enough of my rambling. Have a great day. > >> > >> Jason ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:40:25 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Doug and the Pugh --- Scott Moore wrote: Last week Doug Wright > played the > Pugh Concerto on two concerts. Of all the trombonists I > have heard, > Doug has become my favorite. I concur. I had the great fortune of playing quite a bit with Doug when he was freelancing here in Boston. Great colleague, always communicating at a deep level, fantastic to have on any kind of gig because he can play in just about any style, and follow or lead beautifully as the situation demands. > I especially like > the fact that he was playing his "marching horn" from the > 9th grade. That "marching horn" is a great Bach 42G, traditional wrap, with a flexibility of sound more characteristic of Conn than Bach. I think he plays something heavier for most orchestra rep - a heavy yellow Bach bell with a thayer valve if he still plays the same horn he did in Boston - but his old one is really special. Gabe __________________________________________________ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 11:53:47 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Doug and the Pugh > > That "marching horn" is a great Bach 42G, traditional wrap, > with a flexibility of sound more characteristic of Conn > than Bach. ================================================== That must be the horn he is pictured with in the last ITA Journal. It struck me that for all of the gear talk we have, this guy who is premiering a concerto and having a feature article written about it is playing just a plain old low tech closed wrap Bach. Jeff Albert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:28:22 EDT From: Dslide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ITA...Diversity... In a message dated 9/10/02 11:41:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zemry@BELLSOUTH.NET writes: > We may be making a "quiet" resurgence in other less traditional > genres of music. If so, having those genres represented at any future ITF > would help to increase awareness amongst budding trombonists. > I once had an argument with a friend who characterized the trombone as a 'comical' instrument. I asked him how he could say that, and he supported his opinion by saying, "C'mon, if you asked 10 people to describe the trombone, most would say it's a comical instrument." I disagreed, and continue to disagree. I argued that he was asking 10 people in 'his' neighborhood. But in other cultures the trombone is a vital part of their music.....particularly in the Carribean. What is Salsa, Reggae or Ska without the trombone? DG David Gibson dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:25:30 +0100 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Watzit? From: "J.c. Sherman" > It could also be an alto trumpet in F. Second partial > would be C, So how do you count partials? I always thought harmonics, partials and overtones were the same thing, just different names. C would be the 3rd (or 6th, 9th, 12th, etc.) harmonic on a fundamental F. ie., the number relates to the number of divisions. Am I to believe that partials start counting from a different place? What about overtones? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:32:16 -0500 From: dajohansen@I-55.COM Subject: Re: Watzit? ------=_Part_38_7735671.1031769136996 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > So how do you count partials? I always thought harmonics, partials and > overtones were the same thing, just different names. C would be the 3rd (or > 6th, 9th, 12th, etc.) harmonic on a fundamental F. ie., the number relates > to the number of divisions. Am I to believe that partials start counting > from a different place? What about overtones? I'm with Adrian on this. And have any of you heard of the pedal B-flat being referred to as the fundamental with the numbering system (whatever it's called) beginning on the second line B-flat? Dave Johansen ------=_Part_38_7735671.1031769136996 Content-Type: text/plain; name="Original message"; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Original message" From: "J.c. Sherman" > It could also be an alto trumpet in F. Second partial > would be C, So how do you count partials? I always thought harmonics, partials and overtones were the same thing, just different names. C would be the 3rd (or 6th, 9th, 12th, etc.) harmonic on a fundamental F. ie., the number relates to the number of divisions. Am I to believe that partials start counting from a different place? What about overtones? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------=_Part_38_7735671.1031769136996-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:41:43 -0400 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Subject: Re: the 3, 33, 66 rule I see I sent this without stating what the rule is. That's bad form, not everyone may have internet access. The "rule" alleged that sound was 3% due to material, 33% due to shape, and 66% due to the player. I can't imagine how you would quantify or test that. But it's an interesting theory. -----Original Message----- From: Richardson, Tim Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:57 PM To: 'Trombones and related issues forum.' Subject: the 3, 33, 66 rule I happened to toot on an alphorn this weekend. Interesting horn, pitched in F, 12 feet 3 in of tube, fully conical, no resistance at all. It takes a lot of air, like trying to play loud double pedals for me. I came across the following long URL, if you try it make sure it didn't wrap: http://www.hta.fhz.ch/abteilung/m/site_maschinentechnik/subpages/studium/pdf _alphorn.pdf I guess a lot of it got lost in the translation. It doesn't have the substance I would like to see in an engineering student lab report. No calculations to speak of, no economic analysis, etc. But on the other hand they didn't let it get in the way of building something that actually played, and there's a lot to be said for that. The last slide states the 3, 33, 66 rule. I wonder if anyone can cite a reference for that. The author made no attempt to support it. It probably makes sense as a rule of thumb. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:58:21 EDT From: BassBonist@AOL.COM Subject: Re: the 3, 33, 66 rule In a message dated 9/11/02 11:51:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL writes: > I see I sent this without stating what the rule is. That's bad form, not > everyone may have internet access. > > The "rule" alleged that sound was 3% due to material, 33% due to shape, and > 66% due to the player. I can't imagine how you would quantify or test > that. > But it's an interesting theory. > Bad form? Maybe. Definitely bad math ; 3+33+66 = 102% Matt Varho Bass Trombonist Freelance LA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:02:08 -0400 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Re: the 3, 33, 66 rule Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL > I see I sent this without stating what the rule is. That's bad form, not > everyone may have internet access. > > The "rule" alleged that sound was 3% due to material, 33% due to shape, and > 66% due to the player. I can't imagine how you would quantify or test that. > But it's an interesting theory. I guess that only applies to players that give 102% of effort... Walter Barrett Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:01:16 -0700 From: Elisabeth Frederick Subject: Re: Watzit? > I'm with Adrian on this. And have any of you heard of the pedal B-flat being > referred to as the fundamental with the numbering system (whatever it's called) > beginning on the second line B-flat? I was taught that in my theory class in regards to the overtone series, the first note was the fundamental, the rest were the overtones. I assumed that overtones and partials are the same thing......but I could be mistaken! Liz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:05:39 -0700 From: David Guion Subject: Re: Watzit? From: Adrian Drover >From: "J.c. Sherman" > > >> It could also be an alto trumpet in F. Second partial >> would be C, > > >So how do you count partials? I always thought harmonics, partials and >overtones were the same thing, just different names. C would be the 3rd (or >6th, 9th, 12th, etc.) harmonic on a fundamental F. ie., the number relates >to the number of divisions. Am I to believe that partials start counting >from a different place? What about overtones? > Didn't we just go through this? The overtone series begins with some fundamental and then overtones in a vibration ratio of 2:1, 3:1, 4:1, etc. The physics was first discovered in vibrating strings, and it was demonstrated in 1697 or so that a string vibrated along its entire length to produce the fundamental, but at the same time vibrated in parts (halves, thirds, fourths, etc.) to produce overtones. Since we are talking about the *partial* vibration of a string to produce overtones (to a physicist) or harmonics (to a musician), it would make sense if they were all roughly synonomous and were numbered the same way. But since when does anything have to make sense? Partials, for whatever reason, (and only partials) are numbered from the fundamental. Thus, on a trombone, the first partial is the pedal tone and the fourth partial is the tuning note. The first harmonic or overtone, on the other hand, is the first note in the series higher than the fundamental. The first harmonic or overtone is the second partial. It don't gotta make sense. BTW, Liz Frederick wrote >Actually, its first partial is middle c. Maybe >its some kind of alto horn?? The fundamental of an ordinary orchestral C trumpet is an octave below middle c. An instrument with middle c for a fundamental would be some kind of piccolo trumpet. On a tenor trombone, the fundamental in first position is the pedal (don't tell me about the physics and the fact that there is no energy on that frequency! That's what corresponds to an open string). The second partial is second line (in bass clef) Bb. The third partial is the F above that. The fourth partial is Bb flat below middle C. The fifth partial is D above middle C, the sixth F above that, the seventh more or less Ab above that (way flat), and the eighth the next higher Bb--three octaves above the fundamental. The eighth partial is also the seventh harmonic, but I don't know anyone who talks about harmonics instead of partials. I hope this has been more enlightening than confusing. -- *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* David Guion Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? david@trombone.org *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:18:31 -0400 From: Randy Campora Subject: Old Conn Bass Collectors Take Note Just thought I'd mention this, because I know there are several on the list who are on the look-out for old Conn bass trombones: David Fedderly at Baltimore Brass Company has an old Conn bass trombone, 70H I think, tuning in the slide, single rotor, silver plated, for sale. Contact him directly at bbctuba@aol.com for details. I don't know how old it is, but a quick look at the serial number from the slide said 1938--but don't quote me on that because the horn is in fabulous shape and does not look that old in terms of the condition. It appears to have been plated not too terribly long ago. I tooted on it for a minute and it seemed to play well as far as I could tell, though the rotor might need a little attention. The bell looks to be 9.5 inches, because of the plating I could not tell if it was yellow brass or rose or whatever. Just thought you Conn guys might like to know about it... Randy Campora Baltimore Symphony Orchestra ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:55:16 -0400 From: Chuck De Paolo Subject: Re: the 3, 33, 66 rule The "rule" alleged that sound was 3% due to material, 33% due to shape, and 66% due to the player. I can't imagine how you would quantify or test that. But it's an interesting theory. Interesting. (66+33+3) = 102 = 100. Guess that's what we get for not requiring college algebra in music school. --Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:43:44 +0000 From: "J.c. Sherman" Subject: Trumpets don't usually have an in-pitch fundamental, so the second _useful_ partial would be C. J.c. Sherman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 14:02:17 -0600 From: Dennis Clason Subject: Re: the 3, 33, 66 rule 3% due to material; 33% due to shape; 66% due to player; That makes .... (drum roll please) .... One Hundred and Two percent. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, Children of all ages, perhaps that's why we always need to practice our counting drills. Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason, Ph.D. Associate Professor University Statistics Center New Mexico State University > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:42 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] the 3, 33, 66 rule > > > I see I sent this without stating what the rule is. That's bad form, not > everyone may have internet access. > > The "rule" alleged that sound was 3% due to material, 33% due to > shape, and > 66% due to the player. I can't imagine how you would quantify or > test that. > But it's an interesting theory. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richardson, Tim > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:57 PM > To: 'Trombones and related issues forum.' > Subject: the 3, 33, 66 rule > > > I happened to toot on an alphorn this weekend. Interesting horn, > pitched in > F, 12 feet 3 in of tube, fully conical, no resistance at all. It takes a > lot of air, like trying to play loud double pedals for me. > > I came across the following long URL, if you try it make sure it didn't > wrap: > http://www.hta.fhz.ch/abteilung/m/site_maschinentechnik/subpages/s > tudium/pdf > _alphorn.pdf > > I guess a lot of it got lost in the translation. It doesn't have the > substance I would like to see in an engineering student lab report. No > calculations to speak of, no economic analysis, etc. But on the > other hand > they didn't let it get in the way of building something that actually > played, and there's a lot to be said for that. > > The last slide states the 3, 33, 66 rule. I wonder if anyone can cite a > reference for that. The author made no attempt to support it. > It > probably makes sense as a rule of thumb. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:25:44 EDT From: ROSEBONE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Watzit? To David and all, Two systems for identifying the overtone series: 1) Bb as the fundamental, with the overtones starting 1 8va higher (starting with the number 1 (for the octave above the fundamental). This is an older system. 2) Bb is the the 1st partial , with Bb and octave higher (dividing the air column or string into two parts) refered to as the 2nd partial, etc. two different sets of nomenclature to describe the same physical phenomena Bill Rose McNeese State University Lake Charles, LA rosebone@aol.com In a message dated 9/11/02 1:48:01 PM, dajohansen@I-55.COM writes: >I'm with Adrian on this. And have any of you heard of the pedal B-flat >being > >referred to as the fundamental with the numbering system (whatever it's >called) > >beginning on the second line B-flat? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:34:00 -0400 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Subject: Re: the 3, 33, 66 rule Yes, I did detect that they were math challenged. I was torn between giving them credit for being able to handle a foreign language as well as they did, something I can't do, or slamming them for failure to do simple addition. I also could not tell what was meant by engineering students - college? high school? But the real question is, why a stinking alphorn? We've got all of them we need. Why not build trombones? -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Clason [mailto:dclason@nmsu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 4:02 PM To: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL; TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: RE: [TBN-L] the 3, 33, 66 rule 3% due to material; 33% due to shape; 66% due to player; That makes .... (drum roll please) .... One Hundred and Two percent. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, Children of all ages, perhaps that's why we always need to practice our counting drills. Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason, Ph.D. Associate Professor University Statistics Center New Mexico State University > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:42 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] the 3, 33, 66 rule > > > I see I sent this without stating what the rule is. That's bad form, not > everyone may have internet access. > > The "rule" alleged that sound was 3% due to material, 33% due to > shape, and > 66% due to the player. I can't imagine how you would quantify or > test that. > But it's an interesting theory. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richardson, Tim > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:57 PM > To: 'Trombones and related issues forum.' > Subject: the 3, 33, 66 rule > > > I happened to toot on an alphorn this weekend. Interesting horn, > pitched in > F, 12 feet 3 in of tube, fully conical, no resistance at all. It takes a > lot of air, like trying to play loud double pedals for me. > > I came across the following long URL, if you try it make sure it didn't > wrap: > http://www.hta.fhz.ch/abteilung/m/site_maschinentechnik/subpages/s > tudium/pdf > _alphorn.pdf > > I guess a lot of it got lost in the translation. It doesn't have the > substance I would like to see in an engineering student lab report. No > calculations to speak of, no economic analysis, etc. But on the > other hand > they didn't let it get in the way of building something that actually > played, and there's a lot to be said for that. > > The last slide states the 3, 33, 66 rule. I wonder if anyone can cite a > reference for that. The author made no attempt to support it. > It > probably makes sense as a rule of thumb. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:51:05 -0400 From: Steve Beck Subject: Re: Feels so good! From: "D.J. Kennedy" > yeah if pamela anderson learned trombone that would be a bust ---i mean a > boost Well, if she did it would certainly bring an end to the slide lubricant issue. It would be silicone, hands down . . . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:57:34 -0400 From: Dale Cruse Subject: Re: the 3, 33, 66 rule On 9/11/02 2:55 PM, "Chuck De Paolo" wrote: > The "rule" alleged that sound was 3% due to material, 33% due to shape, > and > 66% due to the player. I can't imagine how you would quantify or test > that. > But it's an interesting theory. > > Interesting. (66+33+3) = 102 = 100. Guess that's what we get for not > requiring college algebra in music school. > > --Chuck > Well, you know, 90% of this game is half mental. --- Dale Cruse dale@dalecruse.com www.dalecruse.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:53:31 -0500 From: Gary Greenhoe Subject: David Gibson's "MAYA" Hello List, As long as we are discussing great trombonists, I thought I'd mention one. I finally got a really delinquent order from Tower Records: "Maya" David Gibson. I've had a few listens of this CD over the past week and I suggest that any of you that are interested in hearing some really sweet, clean jazz...this is one heck of a great performance by David! This CD should be in everyone's library...although I think it will never get put away. Some amazingly wonderful and creative trombone work. It ranks right up there with the best in my collection. Warm Regards, Gary Gary Greenhoe Greenhoe Musical Instrument Components Milwaukee Symphony Orchestra gary@greenhoe.com http://www.greenhoe.com 262-677-0460 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 18:28:05 -0500 From: Fred Hudson Subject: Re: the 3, 33, 66 rule Having dealt with polymer chemists, rubber formulators and composite material engineers all my working life my first thought on seeing the 3, 33, 66 rule was GEE maybe those guys fit one of those categories. Their formulations NEVER add up to 100%. so I went to the link in Tim's post and DUUUHHHH!! (Actually their formulations are based on parts per hundred parts resin for minor ingredients while the major components are percentages of resin composition - Think on that over your Cheerios in the morning) Fred H ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] the 3, 33, 66 rule > Yes, I did detect that they were math challenged. I was torn between giving > them credit for being able to handle a foreign language as well as they did, > something I can't do, or slamming them for failure to do simple addition. I > also could not tell what was meant by engineering students - college? high > school? > > But the real question is, why a stinking alphorn? We've got all of them we > need. Why not build trombones? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis Clason [mailto:dclason@nmsu.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 4:02 PM > To: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL; TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: RE: [TBN-L] the 3, 33, 66 rule > > > > > > 3% due to material; > 33% due to shape; > 66% due to player; > > That makes .... (drum roll please) .... > > One Hundred and Two percent. > > Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, > Children of all ages, > > perhaps that's why we always need to practice our > counting drills. > > Dennis > -- > Dennis L. Clason, Ph.D. > Associate Professor > University Statistics Center > New Mexico State University > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL > > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:42 PM > > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] the 3, 33, 66 rule > > > > > > I see I sent this without stating what the rule is. That's bad form, not > > everyone may have internet access. > > > > The "rule" alleged that sound was 3% due to material, 33% due to > > shape, and > > 66% due to the player. I can't imagine how you would quantify or > > test that. > > But it's an interesting theory. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richardson, Tim > > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:57 PM > > To: 'Trombones and related issues forum.' > > Subject: the 3, 33, 66 rule > > > > > > I happened to toot on an alphorn this weekend. Interesting horn, > > pitched in > > F, 12 feet 3 in of tube, fully conical, no resistance at all. It takes a > > lot of air, like trying to play loud double pedals for me. > > > > I came across the following long URL, if you try it make sure it didn't > > wrap: > > http://www.hta.fhz.ch/abteilung/m/site_maschinentechnik/subpages/s > > tudium/pdf > > _alphorn.pdf > > > > I guess a lot of it got lost in the translation. It doesn't have the > > substance I would like to see in an engineering student lab report. No > > calculations to speak of, no economic analysis, etc. But on the > > other hand > > they didn't let it get in the way of building something that actually > > played, and there's a lot to be said for that. > > > > The last slide states the 3, 33, 66 rule. I wonder if anyone can cite a > > reference for that. The author made no attempt to support it. > > It > > probably makes sense as a rule of thumb. > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:44:04 -0700 From: emrose79@PACBELL.NET Subject: Re: Feels so good! well now, as she doesn't have silicone, (she has saline-I think) it would start a whole new thread on whether saline or silicone or pledge was better!.....:) Ed Steve Beck wrote: > > From: "D.J. Kennedy" > > yeah if pamela anderson learned trombone that would be a bust ---i > mean a > > boost > > Well, if she did it would certainly bring an end to the slide lubricant > issue. It would be silicone, hands down . . . ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 10 Sep 2002 to 11 Sep 2002 (#2002-60) ****************************************************************