Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 14 Aug 2002 to 15 Aug 2002 (#2002-33) There are 23 messages totalling 878 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Thought for the day (3) 2. Articulation (9) 3. Further praise for Phil Teele. 4. Galen Zinn!!! 5. Vital Capacity (2) 6. Larsson Concertino (3) 7. Playing on the Beat (2) 8. travels with the trombone 9. Wagner "Ring Cycle" Low Brass Excerpts for sale ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:21:00 +0100 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Thought for the day I frequently wake up with ideas that should radically change our way of thinking about the universe, but don't. Here is my thought for this morning: What use is the Harmonic Minor Scale? Hardly anybody ever uses the triad on III. It cannot provide a harmony for the ascending VI or descending VII. All the basic harmony for the Minor mode can be sought from the Melodic Scale, i.e. predominantly Aeolian with a few borrowed chords or intervals from the Ionian. Even the Melodic Minor scale is a bit ridiculous. Ascending notes can descend and Descending notes can ascend. Ah, I've just thought of a use for the Harmonic Minor scale. Michel Legrand couldn't have written the melody for "What Are You Doing With the Breast of Your Wife" without it. So, if we use the Melodic Minor scale to harmonize, and the Harmonic Minor scale to write tunes, wouldn't it make sense just to swap the labels around? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 06:52:57 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Articulation funny how you dont notice time until its off a little even stranger is drummers -that people say ----their time is off but sometimes drummers will mess with your head that way David Oliver wrote: > OK Dan, I'm not quite sure exactly what you are really saying (and I even have a > BSEE too!), but I'll chime in on the "bad time" thread and back up Art et al. I > remember talking with Sam about this at the Nashville ITF last year, and I felt > strongly that "tempo" (or good time) was one of the three fundamentals. For me, > the other two were tone and intonation. > The average concert go'er isn't going to notice that you've got that heavy (or > thin) bell with the super-duper 5 piece inverse custom modified rocketship > mouthpiece, but he or she *is* going hear the fundamental quality of your tone, > whether you are in tune, and how well your "internal" metronome is working. > > I have a ragtime ensemble cassette tape from the Musical Heritage Society, > purchased many moons ago. It is somewhat maddening though, because the piano > player has a horrible sense of time. He often briefly speeds up in just about > every piece more than once. Ragtime does at times change a bit in tempo, but > generally it stays locked in. It is clear (to me anyway) that even though this > guy is a good ragtime player, his internal metronome is lacking, affecting the > overall musical impression. > > Caffeine isn't good for my ears, so I think a better solution for me is to hit > the sack. > > David Oliver > Broomfield, Colorado USA > Denver Concert Band > > Daniel Pliskin wrote: > > > >Yup, no argument here, bad time is as bad, as bad pitch.... > > >art > > > > Throwing a bit of science into the mix, I’ll have to disagree! > > > > Bad time is only 67% as bad, as bad pitch. > > > > OK, I’ll admit that I’m in a strange mood and that this might be more > > Christian Science that acoustical science. But I saw this as an opportunity > > to bash the repeating threads about how science should be able to solve why > > trombone is as hard to play as it is, or whatever… > > > > It becomes even more scary when you hear that it’s OK to pollute the globe > > because scientists will figure out how to fix it, by and by. As a guy who > > specialized in electro-acoustics, when he got his Bachelors of Science in > > Electrical Engineering (BSEE), I can officiously say that the scientists > > aren’t going to do anything for you, when it comes to making trombones easy > > to play. Only practice will make trombone easier to play. And as someone > > who worships/fears Murphy, I’ll have to add that the more you practice, the > > more you’ll want to be challenged by harder material, so maybe practice > > won’t make trombone easier to play, after all. > > > > Come to think of it, if trombones miraculously got easier to play, we’d all > > be in the same soup, only we’d all have to compete, playing Flight of the > > Bumble Bee, rather than something easier. > > > > Maybe caffeine will help… > > > > DanP > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:18:42 +0100 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Articulation From: "Daniel Pliskin" > I can officiously say that the scientists aren't going to do anything for you, when it comes to making trombones easy to play. Only practice will make trombone easier to play. _______________________________________________ Oh drat! Can I hire someone to do my practice? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:22:14 -0400 From: Art Triggs Subject: Re: Articulation I'm available, I would love to get paid for practicing, even if it is for someone else.......lol Art ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Drover" To: Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 5:18 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Articulation > From: "Daniel Pliskin" > > > I can officiously say that the scientists > aren't going to do anything for you, when it comes to making trombones easy > to play. Only practice will make trombone easier to play. > _______________________________________________ > > Oh drat! Can I hire someone to do my practice? > > A. > > Adrian Drover > ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk > Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 05:25:54 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Re: Further praise for Phil Teele. --- M & S Walker wrote: > I've always had a problem with my pedal range, having a > fairly dramatic > "shift" right on pedal Bb. Wow Matt, sounds exactly like me! Except my shift was not quite so dramatic, and happened a little higher. Low C and B were always a little dicey and not quite focused enough for good projection. Not bad enough to put me out of work, but bad enough to be VERY frustrating. Just wait til you can do the whole routine! I've added a higher series to the warmup, since my pedal B-flat was not solid enough to be the first note of the day. In fact, what I usually do now is choose a scale at random and play that, starting on low B-flat or A, two octaves down through the pedal register. Even better if I give myself a pulse to play to, although for a while I had to think more about form in the pedal register than time - it seemed like the two disciplines at once was too much to handle, detracting from both. I've been able to slowly incorporate the discipline of a good pulse to start the notes, even in the lowest pedal register. Also, when I called Phil about it and explained that I couldn't get out a pedal E-flat with a middle register embouchure at all, he told me to just start that day on a pedal B-flat until I could - which he said wouldn't take long, and didn't. "Start with what you CAN do." - Norman Bolter Have fun, Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:24:04 EDT From: MikeSuter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Articulation << Oh drat! Can I hire someone to do my practice? >> Sort of like a practice poule? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 07:44:50 -0700 From: Chris Waage Subject: Re: Articulation Or, if you hate to practice by yourself, you could always invest in a duet-yourself kit. ;-) ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: MikeSuter@AOL.COM Reply-To: MikeSuter@AOL.COM Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:24:04 EDT ><< Oh drat! Can I hire someone to do my practice? >> > >Sort of like a practice poule? > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:34:19 -0700 From: Randy Fendrick Subject: Galen Zinn!!! Send me your web site again as my computer crashed, ah the early morning blues! Thanks, -Randy Fendrick- Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra Southside Chicago Seven ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:16:51 -0400 From: Keith Davis Subject: Re: Articulation I think the important part is not so much when you play it, but rather, playing it when you are supposed to . The Basie discussion... here the point is that the notes come in exactly when they are supposed to, as dictated by the style and the director. ALL the trombones together at some point between the second half of the beat and the start of the next. We are not interested in when, mathematically, that is but that its when its supposed to be as dictated by the style. This is the whole concept of playing ahead of the beat, or laying back -- playing exactly when the rest ensemble is playing that note... Keith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:04:19 -0700 From: cworth Subject: Vital Capacity 15 Aug 02 Trombone-L, I just got the results from some medical tests. Among them was 'Vital Capacity'. My VC was 4.03 liters. Beyond measurement of capacity, there were a few measurements 'in comparison to predicted results'. In every case, my score was 100% or more. But these 'predicted' measurements are not tailored for wind instrument players and perhaps I only compare well to the run-of-the-mill, smoking asthmatic. I have Donald Knaub's 'Steps to Excellence' VHS tape (circa 1985). On it, he measures his vital capacity with an Inspirometer, comes up with 6.05 liters, and declares 'not bad for an old man'. Although I don't know how old Mr Knaub was in 1985, I wonder, as a 63 year old bass trombonist with two fewer liters less than Donald, if I am fighting a losing battle? Of course, my management of those paltry 4 liters is another matter altogether, and I'm hopeful that surgical repair of a hiatal hernia will serve to improve my diaphragm integrity. As my usual performance requirements are not excessive, I am not seriously contemplating permanent retirement at this point. Perhaps a flood of contrary opinion will re-focus my thoughts. Alan Charlesworth Digest Subscriber ================= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:18:44 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Articulation >Daniel Pliskin wrote: > > > >Yup, no argument here, bad time is as bad, as bad pitch.... > > >art > > > > Throwing a bit of science into the mix, I’ll have to disagree! > > > > Bad time is only 67% as bad, as bad pitch. >OK Dan, I'm not quite sure exactly what you are really saying (and I even >have a >BSEE too!), David, Please pardon my mood, yesterday. I’ve got way too much time on my hands. I’m one of those unemployed engineers, in Silicon Valley, that you read about and it’s starting to get to me. I threw pseudo-science around to make a point. And the point is that that if there was one trombone that we all wanted, or one trombone design that we all wanted, then some science could be put into what made that trombone special. But we all have different concepts of what a trombone should sound and work like. Many of us have different trombones for different musical situations. So how could someone figure out what specific detail about a trombone was coincidence and which contributed to the sound that everybody preferred? Let’s take an example. Let’s say that someone wants to invent a trombone that’s more resonant, and as such, easier to play. Well there’s a whispery tone that I attribute to turbulence in the backbore. I’ve gotten that sound when I drilled out mouthpieces, rather than reaming them out, to maintain a conical backbore. But that whispery tone is obviously due to a loss in energy, and would have to be eliminated, in a trombone design that strove to be the most resonant and efficient. So anyone that happened to like a bit of whisperiness would not like the results of “science” applied to the trombone. A more efficient trombone would probably not use a magnesium bell, for its non-resonant properties. Certain aluminum alloys might also work, for the cheaper models, for the same reason. That’s “sound science” (couldn’t resist), but I can just about guarantee you that it wouldn’t sound good. But let’s not get to far into all this anti-science/pro-art stuff. There’s a heck of a lot of science that has gone into the development of the trombone. Some of it looked more like natural selection but that’s science too. And a lot of the science that goes into the making of a trombone seems invisible to the player, because it’s way back in the food-chain, but it’s definitely science. No engineer, technician or artist could make a trombone worth a damn, of the brass that they got was inconsistent. No one could for that brass into tubing and bells, if their machines were held together with bailing wire. And it goes on and on. In essence, there’s science and engineering in every stage of the construction process and in every stage of the design. What’s missing, perhaps is an overall mathematical formula for what a trombone does, but first we’d have to all agree to what a trombone is, and we certainly don’t agree on that, here. Come to think of it, I need to give thanks for this whole thread. You see, I initially dropped out of mechanical engineering school, in my forth year, to play music. I knew that I could always go back and finish. But while I was playing music, I got very interested in the physics of music and in why sound synthesizers sounded so bad, given that Scientific American had all these articles about the detailed analysis of sound. I figured that if they could really analyze sound, they should be able to then synthesize it. But clearly sound synthesizers sounded bad. My interest in sound synthesizers got me back into engineering school, only this time I was studying electrical engineering. Since I’m already way off topic, I’m conclude by saying two things. First, if you sample a beautiful trombone note and play it back four times in a row, you’ll know that it’s synthesized, because a trombonist would never play four notes in a row, that sounded identical. Second, working in sound synthesis is the ultimate in masochism, for a musician. You slave to get something that sounds good, and as soon as it does, marketing takes it and you get another assignment, working to get something that sounds good. You spend your time listening to bad sounds. In contrast, when I see bad graphics, it doesn’t get to my soul. I just look away. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:22:02 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Articulation > > I can officiously say that the scientists >aren't going to do anything for you, when it comes to making trombones easy >to play. Only practice will make trombone easier to play. >_______________________________________________ > >Oh drat! Can I hire someone to do my practice? Adrian, To give you more time to come up with your "[TBN-L] Thought for the day"? DanP _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:47:49 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Vital Capacity At 10:04 AM 8/15/2002 -0700, cworth wrote: > I just got the results from some medical tests. Among them was >'Vital Capacity'. My VC was 4.03 liters. ==snip== > Of course, my management of those paltry 4 liters is another matter >altogether, Management of air is surely far more important that absolute volume. Efficient use of the air you have will get you twice the phrase length of the average bass trombonist using the same air. And there are lots of opportunities for a person to grab extra air -- opportunities the average player never thinks about and the average teacher never mentions. And the good news is that you can master these breathing techniques very gradually and always stay ahead of the decline in your physical capacity. Unless you have a serious lung disease, I don't see any reason for air to cause a player to retire. I figure the eyes and the embouchure muscles will give out before the diaphragm. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:59:46 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Thought for the day At 09:21 AM 8/15/2002 +0100, Adrian wrote: >So, if we use the Melodic Minor scale to harmonize, and the Harmonic Minor >scale to write tunes, wouldn't it make sense just to swap the labels around? You are asking this question of people who drive on the parkway and park on the driveway. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:40:59 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Larsson Concertino Do any of you know of any precedent for doing some octave transpositions in the Larsson? In particular, the second statement of the second movement theme? Thanks, Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:51:29 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: Thought for the day >>So, if we use the Melodic Minor scale to harmonize, and the Harmonic Minor >>scale to write tunes, wouldn't it make sense just to swap the labels >>around? > >You are asking this question of people who drive on the parkway and park on >the driveway. And whose noses run and feet smell. DanP _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:57:29 +0200 From: Anders Carlsson Subject: Re: Larsson Concertino glangfur@yahoo.com writes: Do any of you know of any precedent for doing some octave transpositions in the Larsson? In particular, the second statement of the second movement theme? Why? /Anders Carlsson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:25:31 -0500 From: David Pozos Subject: Re: Larsson Concertino I believe that there is an article in the OTJ archives. I remember hearing John "Doc" Marcellus play the last triplet in the last movement starting on high A and glissing down 2 octaves to end on the note that is written. People do all kinds of stuff to that tune but I don´t know why. > glangfur@yahoo.com writes: > Do any of you know of any precedent for doing some octave > transpositions in the Larsson? In particular, the second > statement of the second movement theme? > > Why? > > /Anders Carlsson > > David Pozos Principal de Trombones Orquesta Sinfónica de Xalapa -- This Message has been sent with WebMail. http://www.megared.net.mx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:51:52 -0400 From: Art Triggs Subject: Re: Articulation HUH???? yup, Dan, better have some more caffeine ;-) Art ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Articulation > >Yup, no argument here, bad time is as bad, as bad pitch.... > >art > > Throwing a bit of science into the mix, I'll have to disagree! > > Bad time is only 67% as bad, as bad pitch. > > OK, I'll admit that I'm in a strange mood and that this might be more > Christian Science that acoustical science. But I saw this as an opportunity > to bash the repeating threads about how science should be able to solve why > trombone is as hard to play as it is, or whatever. > > It becomes even more scary when you hear that it's OK to pollute the globe > because scientists will figure out how to fix it, by and by. As a guy who > specialized in electro-acoustics, when he got his Bachelors of Science in > Electrical Engineering (BSEE), I can officiously say that the scientists > aren't going to do anything for you, when it comes to making trombones easy > to play. Only practice will make trombone easier to play. And as someone > who worships/fears Murphy, I'll have to add that the more you practice, the > more you'll want to be challenged by harder material, so maybe practice > won't make trombone easier to play, after all. > > Come to think of it, if trombones miraculously got easier to play, we'd all > be in the same soup, only we'd all have to compete, playing Flight of the > Bumble Bee, rather than something easier. > > Maybe caffeine will help. > > DanP > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:35:20 -0400 From: David Fetter Subject: Playing on the Beat To practice playing on the beat, record yourself playing with the metronome. Without the aural mirror, it is difficult to hear exactly what is happening. This is more effective than someone else listening and saying, no, you're late. No, now you're early. Practice simple music this way, because basic patterns do get distorted. Our expressive side pushes the beat around. We get impatient with long notes. We play faster when things get more exciting, or get easier. We stretch to accommodate an awkward turn. Music which is played frequently often takes on a distorted shape of its own. The central audition excerpts, for example. David Fetter Peabody Conservatory and Preparatory Trombone Faculties Associate Dean for Performance Activities and Placement 1 East Mt. Vernon Place Baltimore, MD 21202 David Fetter - Music for Brass (Mostly) Home page: gigue.peabody.jhu.edu/~davidf/ _________________________________________________________________________ This mail sent via toadmail.com, web e-mail @ ToadNet - want to go fast? http://www.toadmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:21:54 -0400 From: James Gicking Subject: travels with the trombone The trombone, unlike the guitar, is a social instrument. I've been playing guitar for 38 years I figure, and traveling with the guitar (in my case, primarily on vacation in recent decades) has netted me...not much more than living room practice time. And I actually can play the thing fairly well, in a number of styles. But my first love is the trombone and this year, and for the second year running, I was lucky enough to find I could jump into the July 4th performance of the Deer Isle, Maine community band. The director was delighted to now have TWO trombones to play on the lawn while the small town parade passed by (the rehearsal the night before, it seems, led them to expect none). The band was pretty good, the camaraderie, even better. And now, sneaking another week away from the office on Martha's Vineyard, I found that the Vineyard Haven band (founded 1860-something) could stand another trombone for their annual "Illumination" concert in Oak Bluffs. I asked, acting on a hunch gained from my Deer Isle experience. So I played on the stage of the historic Tabernacle, an open sided ironwork tent-like structure from the mid 19th century, surrounded by a hundred tiny little gingerbready victorian cottages (my wife says they look like candy) festooned with Japanese lanterns, "illuminated" for the 137th or something, annual ritual. The band concert, sing-along, and tour of the illuminated cottages is an annual event, and the very enthusiastic crowd numbered, I'd guess, over a thousand. Better yet, today four of the five trombones from the Illumination concert got together to play quartet rep. on the deck of one of the guys' houses here on the island. And the neighbors didn't complain. I don't know what was better, the feeling of playing music, or just hanging and feeling completely at home and relaxed with three people sharing a common passion. Life is good. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 04:35:22 -0700 From: Gordon Cherry Subject: Wagner "Ring Cycle" Low Brass Excerpts for sale An extensive collection of Richard Wagner's complete "Ring Cycle" operatic excerpts for Low Brass - 2 Tenor Trombones Bass Trombone Contrabass Trombone Bass Trumpet Tuba Compiled by Gordon Cherry, Principal Trombone of the Vancouver Symphony. This music has the "Complete" unabridged, uncut, correct excerpts professionally scanned from the original parts as played in all major opera orchestras and is available on CD-ROM, ready to be printed up on your printer using Acrobat Reader. The following 4 Operas from Wagner's Ring Cycle are available in pdf format (compatible with PC's or Macs): Das Reingold Die Walk=FCre Siegfried (bass trumpet part is missing) Gotterdammerung There are hundreds of pages of excellent excerpt material in very good condition. Use them for private practice, section practice, audition preparation,backup parts for your library and much more. If you are a teacher, you should have the complete parts for your students to practice from. If you are a serious trombonist you should have every one of these pieces going in your sleep!Print out only what you need. No need for bulky and expensive excerpt books. Carry around your whole excerpt library on a CD. This collection comes from used parts, so there are markings, etc. These are not "virgin parts" and a few pages are cut off a tiny bit and have markings including breathing, phrasing, tuning and rhythmic reminders, as in all well used orchestral music. Satisfaction 100% Guaranteed, so there is no risk in purchasing whatsoever. Payment by check,money order,PayPal or Billpoint. Shipping & handling by airmail within North America is $2.00 or $3.00 internationally. Check out my new web site at www.Cherry-Classics.com & see my other collections of music for brass including the Mahler Symphonies on CD-ROM for low brass. Pricing is $15.00 for the collection of the music above on CD-ROM in pdf format. Payment by check,money order,PayPal or Billpoint. Shipping & handling by airmail within North America is $2.00 or $3.00 internationally. You may send payment by money order or personal check to: Gordon Cherry 5462 Granville Street Vancouver, BC V6M 3C3 CANADA (Use a $.60 stamp to get to Canada) Check out my new web site at www.Cherry-Classics.com & see my other collections of music for brass. Best wishes, Gordon Cherry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:28:18 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Playing on the Beat >To practice playing on the beat, record yourself playing with the metronome. >Without the aural mirror, it is difficult to hear exactly what is happening. > >This is more effective than someone else listening and saying, no, you're >late. No, now you're early. > >Practice simple music this way, because basic patterns do get distorted. Our >expressive side pushes the beat around. We get impatient with long notes. We >play faster when things get more exciting, or get easier. We stretch to >accommodate an awkward turn. > >Music which is played frequently often takes on a distorted shape of its own. >The central audition excerpts, for example. > >David Fetter >Peabody Conservatory and Preparatory Trombone Faculties >Associate Dean for Performance Activities and Placement >1 East Mt. Vernon Place >Baltimore, MD 21202 >David Fetter - Music for Brass (Mostly) >Home page: gigue.peabody.jhu.edu/~davidf/ > =========== Or...(much better..) JUST TAP YOUR FOOT AND LISTEN !!!!! I must admit that I do not understand the mechanism that is in operation here. Not in me, for many years, and obviously not in many of you. You have no need of a metronome to know when you are habitually late in your attacks. Just pay attention. It's easy to hear. If the note starts AFTER your foot taps, you're late. Duh. Then...remedy the situation. Duh again. (Took me about 15 years to figure it out...don't feel as if you're all alone here.) The zen of attack...the zen of real attention. So simple. So rare. S. ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 14 Aug 2002 to 15 Aug 2002 (#2002-33) ****************************************************************