Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 6 Aug 2002 to 7 Aug 2002 (#2002-25) There are 40 messages totalling 1526 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. What we've been up to 2. Sound and register was RE: [TBN-L] trombone hard to play (2) 3. Maintaining "X" Chops? (3) 4. [tbn-l] and junk mail filtering (4) 5. trombone hard to play (11) 6. Air column, Schmair column 7. Here's that valve debate again! (was Good valve trombones) 8. another (perhaps naive) newbie lip question (5) 9. Melodious Makers 10. Doug Elliot 11. trombone hard to play////playing hard 12. Articulation, was: trombone hard to play 13. Good valve trombones (2) 14. getting the chops back in shape 15. the trombone and gen. Y or is it Z 16. Fw: [TBN-L] the trombone and gen. Y or is it Z 17. trombone hard to play; doubles 18. small size trombone mpc needed for boston trombone (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 01:44:44 -0400 From: Strum Hollow Subject: What we've been up to Hi, =20 Here in sunny (ya right!) Florida, we've been spending a lot of time = with our noses pointed toward the computer, working on additions to the = site and repairing damage from a lightning strike a couple of weeks ago = that caused a lot of annoying damage. Here's some of what you can find that's new at Strum Hollow. =20 We now offer sweatshirts as well as T-shirts including designs for = trombone To make shopping easier, we now accept credit cards Many new shirt designs including Celtic and Band Three new free tabs have been posted - Redwing, Bonaparte's Retreat, and = Sheebeg Sheemore, (Milk Cow Blues and Sandy Boys are still available in = the archives.) =20 And, we are finally starting serious work on our CD but it will take = time. So many tunes, so little disk space. =20 Enjoy! Ken & Trisha Ken & Trisha Brooks 363 Hartwood Ave Spring Hill, FL 34606 352-683-8245 www.strumhollow.com www.names-n-wood.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:41:26 +0100 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Sound and register was RE: [TBN-L] trombone hard to play From: "Jeff Albert" > Adrian wrote: > > What instruments are easier to play than the trombone? > =================================================== > > Saxophones. I was once in a situation where a bari sax double would > come in very handy. 4 weeks from getting a hold of a bari, I was > playing it on a gig, granted in a very limited fashion. I can't imagine > a non brass player picking up the trombone, and being able to get away > with it on a gig in 4 weeks. Well yes, from being a trumpet player (on which I was never able to develop a high range) I bought myself an alto sax, learned the fingering in less than a day and also played my first gig within a month. But how long does it take to play the sax, or any other instrument well? Just as long as the trombone I would think. I learned the trombone slide positions (roughly) in less than a day too and seem to remember it took me less than a week to use it as a double on my resident gig. I'm happier playing the trombone now than I ever was with the sax or trumpet. I think that is the main thing. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 06:07:12 -0600 From: Music Subject: Re: Maintaining "X" Chops? on 8/5/02 8:01 AM, Randy Fendrick at jfendrick@BAK.RR.COM wrote: > One of our local players decided about a year ago to stop playing trombone > as it is too hard to maintain his chops. He has switched to cornet, not > trumpet, but cornet. Really? This implies that he finds it easier to maintain cornet chops? That certainly goes against everything I've heard and experienced. Anyone else find a cornet or other instrument (other than tuba) easier to maintain?? Cary Hobbs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 05:24:46 -0700 From: David Guion Subject: Re: [tbn-l] and junk mail filtering From: Daniel Pliskin , who must have deleted the List Monitor's survey: >Dear List, > >Over the past week, I?ve received a bunch of trombone-L email with a subject >line that included [tbn-l]. With all the junk mail I receive, I?d love it >if all trombone-L mail included that. It would allow me to better filter >out the junk. Is that something that others would also like? Lots of email lists are starting to identify themselves, and most people find it helpful. Wouldn't it be even better if other mass mailers had to put, say, [JUNKMAIL] before the subject heading? Or better still, [VIRUS ATTACHED]? -- *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* David Guion "When you swim in the sea And an eel bites your knee-- That's a moray!" david@trombone.org *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 05:31:03 -0700 From: David Guion Subject: Re: trombone hard to play ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Jeff Albert > >Adrian wrote: >[Jeff Albert] >I don't really understand this statement Jeff. What instruments are >easier >to play than the trombone? >=================================================== > > >Saxophones. I was once in a situation where a bari sax double would >come in very handy. 4 weeks from getting a hold of a bari, I was >playing it on a gig, granted in a very limited fashion. I can't imagine >a non brass player picking up the trombone, and being able to get away >with it on a gig in 4 weeks. > Did you hear the one about the kid who decided to learn electric bass? He had is first lesson on a Friday night. When he got home, his mother asked him how the lesson went. "Just great. I learned how to play the note G." The next Friday, he came home and his mother asked him how the lesson went. "Just great. I learned how to play the note D." The next Friday, he came home and his mother asked him how the lesson went. "I didn't have time for a lesson tonight. I had a gig." > -- *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* David Guion "When you swim in the sea And an eel bites your knee-- That's a moray!" david@trombone.org *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:12:07 EDT From: BJMCHAFFIE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: trombone hard to play Never thought of it before but... why wouldn't blowing a little air through the trombone before tongueing the first note help with the problem of moving the air column to produce the first note. beldon wade ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:24:59 -0400 From: David Buckley Subject: Re: trombone hard to play Interesting comment re articulation. At Nashville Carsten Swanberg in his clinic asked why conductors of orchestras are always telling trombones they are behind. That hit home because we hear it in our orchestra and I thought it was just we amateurs with not much orchestral experience who had this problem. His answer was partly because we are at the back of the band far from the conductor but mostly because of our soft attacks, we don't put enough front on the note. I'm still a firm believer that practicing very soft vocal articulation is the way to go. This allows you the flexibility then to start a note any way you want especially at low volumes but also demands the musical intelligence to do what is required by the music and the conditions. Nothing worse than trying for a very soft attack and having it fail making a wimpy start to the note. That'll kill the music quicker than anything else we might do. Dave. Walter Barrett wrote: > Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but Robert Holland... > > > True, we overemphasize tone. But the 90% > > articulation idea is just unsupported contention. And the trombone has been > > continuously redesigned and improved in the U.S. to make it more responsive, > > which has had diminished returns because now it's so touchy. Older Conns and > > German Laetsch instruments one can articulate with surprising force without > > their sounding harsh. That enables a far greater comfort zone to begin notes > > cleanly. > > This reminded me of something that's been bothering me of late, mostly in > groups that I play in, plus, to a lesser extent, certain trombone "stars" on > recordings. What is it with mushy attacks? Doesn't anybody even try to put a > point at the start of the note anymore? And that's just for one note, forget > about faster passages. Between the mushy attack and the > oops-held-it-too-long-but-how-about-that-tone releases, it's a wonder that > we're not forced to play the Stars & Stripes at 96 bpm! > > Yes, the trombone is more responsive these days, but mostly in terms of > volume. The same things that make it easier to play louder without total > meltdown also make it harder to get a clean attack. Sit down and play a duet > with a trumpet player, taking care to match his level of articulation. Try > it with a small tenor first, then a 547 large tenor. If you have one around, > try a euphonium. As the bore sizes get bigger and more conical, you have to > add more "snap" to the attacks to keep up with the trumpet attacks. Many > try, fail, then blame the equipment. > > Another contributing factor is that if you're playing too loud, flexibility > of the lips and tongue goes out the window. So, just play "loud", not "too > loud." Don't believe it, try playing the last variation of Bluebells at the > same volume you/most folks play Mahler 3rd, or the Ride. > -- > Walter Barrett > > "Tongue and blow, Kid!" > -John Coffey > "Tongue harder, kid, it's getting lost in there..." > - Me (Walter Barrett) > > > Yamaha Artist/Clinician > Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones > Euphonium > Bass Trumpet > Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:33:52 -0400 From: David Buckley Subject: Re: Maintaining "X" Chops? He may think he is retaining his chops because as a cornet player if he is in a brass band he will be playing in a group where his sound can be buried in the mix. But I will guarantee that without basic work at least equal to what was done on trombone, the sound will be crap and not worth listening too. The only component of trom playing not common to the cornet is the necessity of constant tuning adjustments to get in tune with the cornets. Dave Buckley. Music wrote: > on 8/5/02 8:01 AM, Randy Fendrick at jfendrick@BAK.RR.COM wrote: > > > One of our local players decided about a year ago to stop playing trombone > > as it is too hard to maintain his chops. He has switched to cornet, not > > trumpet, but cornet. > > Really? This implies that he finds it easier to maintain cornet chops? > That certainly goes against everything I've heard and experienced. Anyone > else find a cornet or other instrument (other than tuba) easier to > maintain?? > > Cary Hobbs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:45:36 -0500 From: Fred Hudson Subject: Re: [tbn-l] and junk mail filtering The [TBN-L] in the subject line is also handy for sending your incoming list mail directly to a unique folder. I have named my folder [TBN-L] ! (With creativity like that I oughta be writing sitcom scripts!) Fred H ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Guion" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 7:24 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] [tbn-l] and junk mail filtering > From: Daniel Pliskin , who must have deleted the List Monitor's survey: > > >Dear List, > > > >Over the past week, I?ve received a bunch of trombone-L email with a subject > >line that included [tbn-l]. With all the junk mail I receive, I?d love it > >if all trombone-L mail included that. It would allow me to better filter > >out the junk. Is that something that others would also like? > > Lots of email lists are starting to identify themselves, and most people find it helpful. Wouldn't it be even better if other mass mailers had to put, say, [JUNKMAIL] before the subject heading? Or better still, [VIRUS ATTACHED]? > > -- > *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* > David Guion > > "When you swim in the sea > And an eel bites your knee-- > That's a moray!" > > david@trombone.org > > > *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* > > > -- > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:03:02 -0500 From: Fred Hudson Subject: Re: trombone hard to play ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Buckley" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] trombone hard to play ... Nothing worse than trying for a very soft attack and > having it fail making a wimpy start to the note. That'll kill the music quicker > than anything else we might do. > > Dave. > This happened to me the first time I participated in a performance of Brahms One. (Is there any more difficult entrance in the literature?) In subsequent performances I found that a more assertive attack drew less violent glares from the conductor. Fred H ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:08:38 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Air column, Schmair column There have been several comments on the "trombone is soooo hard" thread that talk about the difficulties of getting the air column moving. I don't understand why this is a problem. "Moving" the air through the horn has nothing to do with producing sound. Once the air passes the lips, the mechanical movement of air has been converted into a sound wave. From that point, it travels THROUGH the air column as a wave, at 740-some miles per hour. And it is reflecting back and forth inside the horn at that speed too. The fact that some of the air happens to be moving at about 1/100 of a mile per hour through the horn at the same time is of no consequence at all. In other words, it isn't necessary for the air to be moving at all for the sound to happen. The ONLY reason air moves through the horn is because we're blowing into the mouthpiece and the air has to go somewhere. But after the air passes the lips, its work is done. Cheers, Craig ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:12:10 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: [tbn-l] and junk mail filtering At 05:24 AM 8/7/2002 -0700, David Guion wrote: >Lots of email lists are starting to identify themselves, and most people >find it helpful. Wouldn't it be even better if other mass mailers had to >put, say, [JUNKMAIL] before the subject heading? Or better still, [VIRUS >ATTACHED]? Or how about [LAME JOKE] or [FINANCIAL CON JOB] or [FEEL-GOOD MORALITY STORY] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:42:27 -0500 From: Dean McCarty Subject: Here's that valve debate again! (was Good valve trombones) > From: "Gary Greenhoe" The biggest problem with most open wraps built today > is the clever way in which a very, very tight bend is disguised. If one > things they have a superbly designed open wrap trombone, just take a quick > peek at the tight 180 degree reversed path that is relocated IN THE CASING! > Now, tell me how open that design is. > > On Behalf Of Steve Beck > You will be pleased to note that Conn has corrected this with the CL valve. > > From: "Gary Greenhoe" > I am pleased to note the CL valve adds it's own set of problems which > truly inhibit the natural sound of the trombone. Just peek into the > design...with a huge air bubble in the idle port. This is progress? I have had the opportunity to try out most of the "advanced valves" out on the market. My conclusion is this... some valves are more open than others. I am not saying that Thayers are more open than traditional rotors... I am saying that some valves work well and others don't. For example: I have tried a Thayer on one horn and it was great... on another it was no improvement to traditional rotors... or worse. I have also tried horns with traditional rotors that are equally, if not more, open to Thayers. I personally believe that all of this valve hype is more psychological than physics. I know that if I went out and spend $1500 on a new valve section for my bass then by golly it's going to sound better... at least $1500 better. I don't think that anyone out there can say that one valve is superior to another. No disrespect to Gary Greenhoe... but I tried one of his inline bass sections on a Shires during a rehearsal a couple of years courtesy of Kevin Saunders. I pushed the instrument and valves at all dynamics and ranges. That instrument did not even compare my personal instrument - and, by the way, Kevin concurred. For the record... on my Bach 42 I have one of the newer Thayer valves... and I love it. On my Bach 50 I have the inline balanced (K) valves... on a bass I have not found better valves. But hey... the next guy will play my horn and say that he hates it... What does this mean? If you are comfortable with your instrument then great, don't fix what ain't broke. Just look at guys like Bill Reichenbach, Doug Yeo, and George Roberts... they all play on traditional rotors... and THEY could play on anything that they wanted to for free probably. They prefer traditional rotors. I have to admit... on the instruments that they play on... those rotors are quite free blowing. My wife owns a Conn 88H with the Lindberg valve... I'm not a Conn fan, but the valve is very open and has about half the throw of a traditional rotor... I like it... not enough to buy a set for my bass, because I like my balanced valves. So in the end what does all of this debate get us? Nothing... I will say I like a particular valve; Gary will try to sell us on his valve, which is good - just not for me at this time; Doug will say that he likes traditional rotors... Again, where does this get us? Well it does this - some people need the comfort of the newest gadget out there. Let's face it - the trombone hasn't really changed since it was invented... it's pretty boring - so when something new comes out it makes it exciting again. Do any of these valves REALLY improve anything? I don't know - there were great players before these valves and there will be great players in the future. If it make the player more confident - then great! Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks! Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:38:54 +0000 From: robert.osterlund@ATTBI.COM Subject: another (perhaps naive) newbie lip question Folks: Okay, after blowing little or no for about a week (and just doing warmups for ~10 minutes per day for a week and a half before that), the purpling of my lower lip has just about vanished. The surface roughness (chapping) has mostly gone, too. However, I still observe a slight bulging on both sides of the lip, thinning and curving upward in the middle of the lip. Sort of like an extended, wavy "w". (This is not the circular ring shape, extending from upper lip to lower lip, that one gets from pressing on the mouthpiece too hard. At least I think not.) I know that embouchure development involves strengthening of the lip muscles. Is this bulging I observe normal, akin to what a body builder grows from pumping iron? Try to think back to the early days of your trombone (or whatever) playing. Did you, too, observe a thickening and bulging of your lips (especially the lower lip) as you practiced the horn? And did this become more or less permanent? Interesting thought: Does playing brass make you a better kisser? ;-) Berto -- robert.osterlund@attbi.com http://earlymusichicago.home.attbi.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 10:53:22 -0500 From: Dean McCarty Subject: Re: Melodious Makers From: "Joe L. Norcross" > I was told by a Blessing rep that it was Conn who copied. Who is right? Being a clinician for E.K. Blessing I can tell you this... When Conn was still in Elkhart they subcontracted some of their work out to the E.K. Blessing Company - which at that time did not make instruments under their own name. They were strictly a sub-contracted company. I'm sure that many of you remember the day when music stores had their "own brand" of instrument. Blessing made a lot of those "store brands" and then the store stamped their name on it. When Conn moved out of Elkhart some of their instrument builders did not move with the company... many of those went to work for E.K. Blessing. That is how many of the Blessing instruments, including the B88 came into existence. It was (and is) as close a copy of an Elkhart Conn of any other "copy" out there.... one problem though... it is just that - a copy. Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:58:27 -0700 From: Randy Fendrick Subject: Re: Maintaining "X" Chops? on 8/7/02 7:33 AM, David Buckley at davebuckley@SYMPATICO.CA wrote: > He may think he is retaining his chops because as a cornet player if he is in > a > brass band he will be playing in a group where his sound can be buried in the > mix. But I will guarantee that without basic work at least equal to what was > done on trombone, the sound will be crap and not worth listening too. The only > component of trom playing not common to the cornet is the necessity of > constant > tuning adjustments to get in tune with the cornets. > > Dave Buckley. > > Music wrote: > >> on 8/5/02 8:01 AM, Randy Fendrick at jfendrick@BAK.RR.COM wrote: >> >>> One of our local players decided about a year ago to stop playing trombone >>> as it is too hard to maintain his chops. He has switched to cornet, not >>> trumpet, but cornet. >> >> Really? This implies that he finds it easier to maintain cornet chops? >> That certainly goes against everything I've heard and experienced. Anyone >> else find a cornet or other instrument (other than tuba) easier to >> maintain?? >> >> Cary Hobbs Actually he is playing a jazz gig with a duo. Piano and cornet or bass and cornet. He is a very good player, but doesn't have the time or desire to maintain the trombone chops. The last symphony thing we did together he subbed on the lead part to play the Bolero and a year or so ago he transcribed Jack Teagardens solo on St James Infirmary played it note for note and did the vocal part so he is no slouch. He chose the cornet because he found one that is free and easy to blow that responds to his attacks. I don't know about you guys but I have to practice to play. There was a time in my life that I didn't, or at least I felt I didn't, but at my age I need to spend time doing the fundamentals. If I don't it is apparent real quick, at least I know it. Randy Fendrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:07:35 EDT From: Dslide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: trombone hard to play Gary, I don't think it's the difficulty of the instrument. I think it's the specialized nature of the articulation that's the problem....along with the coordination of slide and tongue. I think that can be learned relatively easily. But in our education system, kids are taught in the very beginning by instructors who have to do it all, and I would imagine that most aren't trombonists. These instructors rarely have the specialized knowledge of the "tube" and its tendencies. Therefore, kids are starting out at a disadvantage, and many times never find a teacher who can really help them until college. Kids also don't listen to music that features their instrument, for the most part. You might be able to get away with that on a trumpet, or a saxophone, but if you have no concept on the trombone, then you're at a greater disadvantage still. When all of the other instruments are progressing rapidly, the trombonists are still trying to get the basics together, and all they have to bring to the table is loud, slippery, sloppy playing. They become the no talent off the bench. But, you know, everyone's gotta play. So these teachers just encourage the bones to blast or whatever and further reinforce their bad habits coupled with a lack of concept. That's why I want so badly to get into the education/clinic scene. I feel that I have something to offer students and teachers. Not to mention, I would love to do master classes about Jazz History, or harmony/theory for non-Music Majors, in colleges. Those are the people who are going to keep live music breathing. Most people who go to a baseball game have played the game at some level. They understand the rules, and they've probably even thrown a ball or gone to the batting cages. They can go through the motions of a professional athlete, so they're even more appreciative of the skill level in a professional. Most audience members at concerts have zero clue about what it takes physically, mentally and emotionally to create music. They have no basis for their appreciation. I want to talk to those people. I want them to know the magic of creating music at any level. And, I want them to come out and hear me play and buy my music. If they don't, then we're all finished. Sorry for the rant, but we live in a TV society. People aren't responsible for entertaining themselves any longer. Live music is just a channel they can't change. Peace, David Gibson dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:55:05 -0700 From: Galen Zinn Subject: Re: [tbn-l] and junk mail filtering On 8/7/02 7:45 AM, Fred Hudson wrote: > The [TBN-L] in the subject line is also handy for sending your incoming list > mail directly to a unique folder. I have named my folder [TBN-L] ! (With > creativity like that I oughta be writing sitcom scripts!) > > Fred H Most competitive e-mail software programs allow you to create filters that will label any category of incoming mail, thus rendering the recent "[TBN-L]" label unnecessary. For example, Entourage does this. Galen Zinn grzinn@ca.astound.net Trombone Products: http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=stonestbones ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:19:50 -0600 From: Earl Needham Subject: Re: another (perhaps naive) newbie lip question At 03:38 PM 8/7/2002 +0000, robert.osterlund@ATTBI.COM wrote: > >Try to think back to the early days of your trombone (or >whatever) playing. Did you, too, observe a thickening >and bulging of your lips (especially the lower lip) as >you practiced the horn? And did this become more or >less permanent? Yes, I believe that happened in my case. I remember that when I was in high school I had a rather pronounced "lipcep" in the center of my upper lip. >Interesting thought: Does playing brass make you a >better kisser? ;-) No, cross-training just doesn't work in this case, only practice helps! Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk KD5XB-2>APW251,PCSAT-1%:=3425.83N/10313.55W-PHG7150/WinAPRS 2.5.1 -EARL_CLOVIS -251-<630> SETI@Home: 3337WU/3.93yrs! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:32:02 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: another (perhaps naive) newbie lip question Berto, >I know that embouchure development involves >strengthening of the lip muscles. Is this bulging I >observe normal, akin to what a body builder grows from >pumping iron? I had substantial lip muscles when I started playing trombone, from 30 years of playing oboe. But when I first started on trombone, I used to get a bulge in the center of my top lip, about the size and shape of a pea. I guess that pea-sized muscle has grown to be about an inch wide, by the feel of it. And I’d never let it get hard and sore, the way I did, when I first started playing. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:08:28 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: trombone hard to play I'll tell y'all what...it's hard for ME to play. I'll tell you something else...and this is something Doug Elliott pointed out to me on a gig a few weeks ago, when I mentioned that it seemed to me that it took me substantially longer evert day to warm up on and get comfortable w/the 11C that I was trying to use after using only 6 1/2 AL and larger m'pces for about 15 years. He said he found the same thing to be true, because there was less margin for error. Eureka time! No wonder I always feel pretty good on bass tbn. + tuba. Tbn, french horn + tpt. are hard to blow well. Of he three, tbn. adds the slide and its concomitant slide movement and articulation difficulties, and the constant articulation makes embouchure and airstream control even more difficult...sounds like a hard axe to me... As far as Gary Greenhoe's lack of problems w/the horn...NOW I understand how he has the time to do all he other wonderful things he does. Those of us w/a less than natural setup...and my own "natural" setup collapsed when I was about 22 because it just wasn't good enough or strong enough to handle professional demands...can only say "Bless you , Gary. We wish we had it." If I don't spend daily hours on the horn...I sound terrible. Consistently. Like I said... sounds like a hard axe to me... Later... S. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:26:15 -0400 From: David Buckley Subject: Doug Elliot My Doug Elliot catalogue has not yet been found after a recent move. Can anyone please help me with his phone number? Thanks in advance. Dave. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:26:08 -0400 From: Albert P Tobey Subject: Re: trombone hard to play I thought Beethoven's 5th with the high C entrance was bad - even on alto. Movement 1: Tacit Movement 2: Tacit Movement 3: Tacit Movement 4: rest through more than half, enter on high C But that's a nice fortissimo, so it's not all that bad if your chops are in shape. Shumann 3 "Rhenish" is the real nasty excerpt, IMO. Pianissimo starting on Bb-Eb ... then the pianissimo really high Eb. Separates the men from the boys (or women from the girls), as the saying goes. -Al Tobey On Wed, 2002-08-07 at 11:03, Fred Hudson wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Buckley" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 9:24 AM > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] trombone hard to play > > > ... Nothing worse than trying for a very soft attack and > > having it fail making a wimpy start to the note. That'll kill the music > quicker > > than anything else we might do. > > > > Dave. > > > This happened to me the first time I participated in a performance of Brahms > One. (Is there any more difficult entrance in the literature?) In subsequent > performances I found that a more assertive attack drew less violent glares > from the conductor. > > Fred H > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:22:06 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: trombone hard to play////playing hard well when you gotta play hard lots and lots whether you want to or not travel all the stuff that goes with it - --i got this book by jimmy haslip -long road to the bottom all the bands dixieland in various places long days and nites of playing --- ------------------- bill watrous would not switch horns and mpc for a zillion bucks and he works hard every dddd day to keep his chops up and so does slide hampton so they say bird --well bird practiced --------- nite and day and a whole lotta other tunes too and they call it play??????????? ------------------- my hat ----i mean beret----- is off to the working pros !!! sabutin wrote: > I'll tell y'all what...it's hard for ME to play. > > I'll tell you something else...and this is something Doug Elliott > pointed out to me on a gig a few weeks ago, when I mentioned that it > seemed to me that it took me substantially longer evert day to warm > up on and get comfortable w/the 11C that I was trying to use after > using only 6 1/2 AL and larger m'pces for about 15 years. > > He said he found the same thing to be true, because there was less > margin for error. > > Eureka time! No wonder I always feel pretty good on bass tbn. + tuba. > > Tbn, french horn + tpt. are hard to blow well. Of he three, tbn. > adds the slide and its concomitant slide movement and articulation > difficulties, and the constant articulation makes embouchure and > airstream control even more difficult...sounds like a hard axe to > me... > > As far as Gary Greenhoe's lack of problems w/the horn...NOW I > understand how he has the time to do all he other wonderful things he > does. Those of us w/a less than natural setup...and my own "natural" > setup collapsed when I was about 22 because it just wasn't good > enough or strong enough to handle professional demands...can only say > "Bless you , Gary. We wish we had it." > > If I don't spend daily hours on the horn...I sound terrible. > > Consistently. > > Like I said... sounds like a hard axe to me... > > Later... > > S. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:54:31 -0400 From: Walter Barrett Subject: Articulation, was: trombone hard to play Thus spake, not Zarathustra, but David Buckley... > Interesting comment re articulation. At Nashville Carsten Swanberg in his > clinic > asked why conductors of orchestras are always telling trombones they are > behind. > That hit home because we hear it in our orchestra and I thought it was just we > amateurs with not much orchestral experience who had this problem. His answer > was > partly because we are at the back of the band far from the conductor but > mostly > because of our soft attacks, we don't put enough front on the note. I'm still > a > firm believer that practicing very soft vocal articulation is the way to go. > This > allows you the flexibility then to start a note any way you want especially at > low > volumes but also demands the musical intelligence to do what is required by > the > music and the conditions. Nothing worse than trying for a very soft attack and > having it fail making a wimpy start to the note. That'll kill the music > quicker > than anything else we might do. > > Dave. Dave- I have to say that I agree with Carsten. Yes it's good to practice soft attacks, but we also need to practice the whole palette of attacks, from breath attacks to "make the violas wet their pants." As players, we need to have an idea of what it sounds like to the conductor and audience, Attacks that feel totally overbearing in the back row are often lost by the time they reach the front of the stage. The release of the note is just as important. I tell my students "Don't fall in love with it, just play it and let it go." (If it's true love, it'll come back...) Tenuto has its uses, just not all the time. Jazz players are not exempt, either, especially the guys who stick the mike down the bell and doodle away. With the mike that close, if they tongued more than a soft nah, all you'd hear was the attack. Then the tweeters would melt, and/or the sound guy would put a limiter on, reducing the brilliant stream of notes to an indistinct mumble. Either that, or he'd turn it down so far, you might as well not be miked. Add to that the tendency of most directional mikes to add "proximity effect" (which can be translated as more bass), and you've got Mud, with a capital M... -- Walter Barrett "His execution set the prairies afire; his vibrating pedal tones rattled the windows of the Theater and killed the gold fishes and stunned the canaries all the way done to the packing plant....." -review of Arthur Pryor in the 1880's Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:03:26 -0400 From: Dave Burch Subject: Re: another (perhaps naive) newbie lip question I've always had thick lips, so I didn't notice much difference after I started playing brass. However, I have noted on the faces of trombonists I know, or in photos, that many players have an unnatural-looking thickening in the center of the lower lip, about the width of the mouthpiece cup. I've always assumed this was muscular development, or at least the engorgement maintained by daily playing. > >Interesting thought: Does playing brass make you a > >better kisser? ;-) > > No, cross-training just doesn't work in this case, only practice > helps! > > Earl Acually, my wife tells people that kissing makes me a better brass player (I'm not kidding). --Dave Burch ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:19:24 -0400 From: Steve Beck Subject: Re: Good valve trombones From: "Gary Greenhoe" <> Steve, > > I am pleased to note the the CL valve adds it's own set of problems which > truly inhibit the natural sound of the trombone. Should I believe you on this or just wait until you change your mind. In May of 2001 you climbed all over me for suggesting that the New Conn 88's sounded good. You said to your ears and the people around you the were poor. You basically challenged me to a dual - trombone-wise - over this. Then a year later you were singing the praises of this very horn. This is all in the archives Gary. I invite you to look it up. The CL valve works and sounds great. Don't take my word for it, just wait until your change yours. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:30:00 -0600 From: Earl Needham Subject: Re: Good valve trombones At 04:19 PM 8/7/2002 -0400, Steve Beck wrote: >From: "Gary Greenhoe" <> Steve, > > > > I am pleased to note the the CL valve adds it's own set of problems which > > truly inhibit the natural sound of the trombone. > >Should I believe you on this or just wait until you change your mind. > >In May of 2001 you climbed all over me for suggesting that the New Conn 88's >sounded good. You said to your ears and the people around you the were >poor. You basically challenged me to a dual - trombone-wise - over this. >Then a year later you were singing the praises of this very horn. Looks to me more like Gary is saying the CL valve has it's own problems which don't let the natural sound of the trombone through. In other words, they still don't sound good. I have tried several times, and still cannot find Gary's praise for the Conn trombones. Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk KD5XB-2>APW251,PCSAT-1%:=3425.83N/10313.55W-PHG7150/WinAPRS 2.5.1 -EARL_CLOVIS -251-<630> SETI@Home: 3337WU/3.93yrs! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:38:28 -0700 From: "James W. Yardley" Subject: getting the chops back in shape dear musicians who play the trombone, as much as i don't want summer to be over, i'm looking forward to starting school again. and school is not far off for me. i've practiced more this summer than any other summer, but it hasn't been enough to keep my chops in the shape i would like them to be in. i have 3 gigs next week so i've been slowly upping my practice time in preparation. right now i've been playing lots of long tones and lip slurs, and some scales. my chops get tired quickly, and when they do, i put the horn down, and come back to it 5-10 minutes later and practice till they feel weak again. i'm wondering what others do to get their chops back in shape after taking time off. any ideas are welcome. take care, james yardley ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:40:51 -0400 From: Steve Beck Subject: Re: Sound and register was RE: [TBN-L] trombone hard to play From: "Jeff Albert" (in response to "What instruments are easier to play than the trombone?") Saxophones. I'll drink to that Jeff. I associate with a very good sax player who never practices - only gigs. I, like Tim Richard, practice daily to maintain my modest abilities. I can live with that but it really irritates me that this woodwind player can be out biking while I am practicing without a noticible difference in our abilities. If the reed were on the other lip, so to speak, my range would be in the toilet and I would be chipping notes left in right. I think that brass instruments in general are more difficult than saxes. Is that why Adolf O'Phone invented them? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:03:42 -0400 From: Bill Redgate Subject: Re: trombone hard to play How about it doublers. Have any of you played on more than one instrument in roughly the same time frame? Just how hard is this trombone thing to play? Many years ago I used to double often on several different brass horns in the same day. Trombone was always the easiest to make a good sound on - or more correctly, the most comfortable to play. Most Tubas make really nice sounds without any more than a minimum of effort - it's just that "minimum" has to be redefined for the Tuba. I had trouble if I had to go from either Trumpet to Tuba OR from Tuba to Trumpet - but the Bone mouthpiece always slotted for me. I am assuming that to be a physiological thing, but of course I don't know much of anything. As far as the slide being more or less difficult than valves, I don't feel that way. To me it's just different. The particular set of challenges the slide presents ARE a bit easier for my limited intellect to embrace and deal with - than are the challenges presented by valved instruments. But neither system is less or more difficult. It's all in what type of problem vexes you more. As my (now ex) Wife used to say, "It's all in your head." Bill Redgate ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:07:42 +0000 From: Daniel Pliskin Subject: Re: another (perhaps naive) newbie lip question Dave, >Acually, my wife tells people that kissing makes me a better brass player >(I'm not kidding). I've heard it the other way around, that trombone playing makes you better at kissing. And I've made sure that my wife believes it to be true. That way, she remains a proponent of my trombone playing, even though she'd rather hear me playing English horn. Besides, it's fun kissing when your lips are all swollen and buzzed, from practicing. Contrast that with kissing after a few hours of playing English horn. Your lips...what lips! Your lips are all tight and thin. You can't even feel that you're kissing. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:31:33 -0400 From: James Gicking Subject: the trombone and gen. Y or is it Z Was forced to listen to 4 bands here in Phila at the Electric Factory last Thurs. Names like the "Pietasters" and so on, ska-like or at least ska-derived seemed to me. Now for trombone content - two bands featured trombones. "Less than Jake," the headliner, 6 piece group (maybe 7) featured, and I mean featured, TWO trb.s and a tenor sax. Brilliant, cutting, small bore sound - like the best of the salsa guys, nicely executed figures, no solos and a lot of animated roaming/hopping around, particularly by the lead player. (Schtick WORKS by the way, seemed to charge up the crowd. Made we wonder what we could do to get some movement in our big band. Hmmm didn't Lionel Hampton do alot of that?) Lead player looked like Jimmy Bosch to me, but that didn't make much sense. BUT when my chaperonees told me they got the guy's autograph--noone else was around-- I went back and asked him if he WAS Jimmy Bosch-- he never heard of Bosch - also pretended, maybe to have no familiarity w/ any other salsa guys. Found that hard to believe given the lines they were playing and all. Could be U provided (54 y.o. in office casual among the baggy-shorted kids - hey, 'least I'm not tryin to pass) an opportunity for eye-rolling by him in the direction of the 15 y.o. girls were considering whether this short, shaved head TROMBONE player Jimmy somethingorother was worthy of their attention. As I said, the REALLY cool guys weren't around. ANYWAY, was encouraging. Also made me seem just a LITTLE less shot-in-the-head-one-foot-in-the-grave to my chaperonees b/c I own a couple of the things they saw up there on the stage... Keep the faith. This may be the CENTURY OF THE TROMBONE Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:57:55 -0500 From: Bill Dinwiddie Subject: Fw: [TBN-L] the trombone and gen. Y or is it Z James Gicking said: > Was forced to listen to 4 bands here in Phila at the Electric Factory last > Thurs. Names like the "Pietasters" and so on, ska-like or at least > ska-derived seemed to me. Now for trombone content - two bands featured > trombones. > > "Less than Jake," the headliner, 6 piece group (maybe 7) featured, and I > mean featured, TWO trb.s and a tenor sax. Brilliant, cutting, small bore > sound - like the best of the salsa guys, nicely executed figures, no solos > and a lot of animated roaming/hopping around, particularly by the lead > player. (Schtick WORKS by the way, seemed to charge up the crowd. Made we > wonder what we could do to get some movement in our big band. Hmmm didn't > Lionel Hampton do alot of that?) Yeah, Jim, My 16 year old son was listening to "Less than Jake" about a two years ago and then he stopped. All though I wasn't real strong on the group, I remember being real happy that my son was actually listening to a band that had TWO TROMBONES in it. Well, it didn't last. He's a Dave Matthews addict today. No bones, but a pretty good band. Bill Dinwiddie bill752d@attbi.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:26:33 -0500 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: trombone hard to play How about it doublers. Have any of you played on more than one instrument in roughly the same time frame? ____________________________________ Well yes, Tenor Trombone for the last 40 years, Bass Trombone for the last 32 years, & Tubas for the last 33 years, Euphonia for the last 30 years, etc etc. ____________________________________ Just how hard is this trombone thing to play? ____________________________________ Harder than most, easier than some. We just DO what we have to DO! Harder to keep up the doubling tho, in my opinion. Tom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 19:57:50 -0700 From: Rod Ellard Subject: Re: trombone hard to play And the $25,000 to $40,000 doesn't include the cost of a van to carry the thing around in. Rod ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Parmerlee" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 9:17 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] trombone hard to play > At 08:09 PM 8/6/2002 -0500, Gary Greenhoe wrote: > >I will admit that pursuing those 88 keys with two hands taught me a lot > >about how to play the tube. Better yet, how to appreciate just how easy the > >tube was. Just pucker up and blow. What a concept! > > Exactly. And it isn't as if most composers and arrangers ask us to do that > much. Trombone music is usually greatly simplified compared to any of the > woodwinds, strings, or (gasp) the piano. > > My wife has always played piano casually and this year has been taking up > the pedal harp. How much sympathy do you think I get if I talk about the > difficulties of the trombone? Her response invariably begins with, > > "Now let me understand. You play one note at a time. Is that correct? ..." > > Case closed.. > > By the way, a good pedal harp costs upwards of $25,000 -- $40,000 is quite > common. Her 60-year old beater would cost $11,000 if she weren't renting > it instead. > > Later, > Craig > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:10:16 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: trombone hard to play At 07:57 PM 8/7/2002 -0700, Rod Ellard wrote: >And the $25,000 to $40,000 doesn't include the cost of a van to carry the >thing around in. > >Rod You got that right. When we picked the bugger up, the only way it would fit in my SUV was with the driver's seat pushed all the way forward. The lady she studies with has essentially dedicated a whole van to her harp, with a complicated set of rails and rigging so she can tote the harp by herself. We trombonists have it so easy, it is unreal. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 20:09:26 -0700 From: Rod Ellard Subject: Re: trombone hard to play; doubles Yeah, I play guitar (electric jazz style) as well as bone(s). Is it easier to play than trombone? Yes. Rod ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 01:38:11 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: small size trombone mpc needed for boston trombone hello anybody able to help in finding //have one //make one a mouthpiece for a boston trombone ????? thanks dj Boreifs@aol.com wrote: > It was the 12 built in Elkhart in 1965 that had a Mount Vernon case. The > woman had highlighted the case and the bidding was up to $700 in two days > because some thought it was a MTV. She relisted it without the case, > identifying it as an Elkhart horn, and I got it for under $500. I'm neither > a jazz nor show player; I bought it for playing the French repertoire on > historical recitals. I also recently bought an 1898 Boston trombone, hoping > to use it for Arthur Pryor, but I need to have a special MP built for it > before I can see if it will work at all. Steve Laskey is too busy right now, > but he indicated he would do it in about three months. I can wait ---------------but if anybody has something it would be nice ok !!! - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:44:39 -0500 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: small size trombone mpc needed for boston trombone What's the need on a special mp? Is it just a small shank, ie: Trumpet-sized receiver? If so, contact Doug Elliott. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of D.J. Kennedy Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 1:38 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] small size trombone mpc needed for boston trombone hello anybody able to help in finding //have one //make one a mouthpiece for a boston trombone ????? thanks dj Boreifs@aol.com wrote: > It was the 12 built in Elkhart in 1965 that had a Mount Vernon case. The > woman had highlighted the case and the bidding was up to $700 in two days > because some thought it was a MTV. She relisted it without the case, > identifying it as an Elkhart horn, and I got it for under $500. I'm neither > a jazz nor show player; I bought it for playing the French repertoire on > historical recitals. I also recently bought an 1898 Boston trombone, hoping > to use it for Arthur Pryor, but I need to have a special MP built for it > before I can see if it will work at all. Steve Laskey is too busy right now, > but he indicated he would do it in about three months. I can wait ---------------but if anybody has something it would be nice ok !!! - ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 6 Aug 2002 to 7 Aug 2002 (#2002-25) **************************************************************