Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 3 Aug 2002 to 4 Aug 2002 (#2002-22) There are 38 messages totalling 2855 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Sad Mingus Big Band (3) 2. state of the trombone (19) 3. Rit. vs Rallent. (3) 4. Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] state of the trombone (4) 5. Spooky 6. seeking used King 3B 7. Fwd: [TBN-L] state of the trombone 8. Front Lady (2) 9. Fwd: [TBN-L] Sad Mingus Big Band (2) 10. 2B or not 2B (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 11:39:03 EDT From: SteveInside@AOL.COM Subject: Sad Mingus Big Band Flame proofing isn't arriving until tomorrow, so I hesitate to write... And any other listers that were there, please feel free to refute every word. I was at Ronnie Scott's last night to see the Mingus Big Band strut their stuff. A good number of top class musicians on the stage and excitement in the very full room was high. All in all though, I don't think the band wanted to be there. I hope it wasn't because they felt unwanted in London. I don't know why and I'm not really qualified to speculate too much. But I'm a punter and a disappointed man (so I'll try). Maybe it was the inclement weather (they arrived in London to experience the wettest July week in many years); maybe it was the venue (the most frequent and closely communicated messages appeared not to be between musician and musician or musician and audience, but between musician and control box); maybe they couldn't hear themselves properly (large pieces of cotton wool were seen being pushed into ears and, in the first set particularly, they seemed to have trouble all arriving at the same place at the same time); or maybe they were just tired and wanted to go home. Or maybe it was all of these plus some other things that couldn't be seen on stage. They were all professional and each seemed to be a damn fine musician. But sadly to me, they were workmanlike. There were most certainly passing moments of beauty and several among the band seemed to be having a reasonably good time. But I sensed the night was summed up most compellingly when about half way through the last number (we didn't know it was the last until he did this), a section leader stopped playing and cleared up his stuff, put everything away, zipped up his bag, tidied up and put in order his sheet music and closed his folder. He sat the piece out with his horn on his knee drinking from a glass of beer. During tutti, he joined in some phrases and parts of phrases but not others in a way that seemed to say he knew the music backwards and didn't feel the need to be included. Did others feels the same? I can't be sure of anyone except my partner, who did feel disappointed. Of the other people near us, several were fast asleep, so I couldn't ask. This band has been before I think, but I didn't attend. I hope they'll come again and maybe I can see them in a different light another time. In contrast, a few weeks ago we saw Chico Freeman's Afro Cuban Band in the same club and they cooked the whole night long. At gone 3 am, we were dancing in aisles and it wasn't the audience that wouldn't go home, it was the band! A slightly disillusioned, Steve C ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:35:51 EDT From: Dslide13@AOL.COM Subject: state of the trombone What happened to the state of the trombone discussion? It was recently brought to my attention that we had a nice conversation going about why the trombone isn't taken seriously and is completely disregarded by most non-trombonists. Some, including myself, had even suggested that many trombonists are preoccupied with technical concerns to the point that it precludes them from really hearing the music when it's played on the trombone. That preoccupation with technical concerns could even result in many trombonists who aspire to play "music" suppressing their musical tendencies in order to achieve technical mastery. In achieving technical mastery, these players are compelled to display it at the expense of music and therefore only appeal to other trombonists. Since trombonists don't call them for gigs and no other instrumentalists appreciate what they do, they don't have any gigs and the trombone isn't a visible instrument on the scene. RIP trombone. It's an interesting discussion, and it's ironic that it was supplanted by discussions between myself and others about horns and mouthpieces and Christmas ornaments. I'm just doing a little self assessment here. Any thoughts? Peace, David Gibson dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:38:22 +0200 From: Howard Weiner Subject: Re: Rit. vs Rallent. At 18:46 03.08.02 -0400, David Buckley wrote: >Rit means an immediate slowing while Rall means gradual. Of course with most >conductors you can't tell the difference. David, Without realizing it you've added yet another component to this discussion: ritenuto, which however is not abbreviated "rit." According to the Harvard Dictionary of Music: "Ritardando, abbr. rit., ritard., [It.]. Gradually slackening in speed, also indicated by rallentando [abbr. rall.]. Ritenuto properly calls for immediate reduction of speed." According to my Italian dictionary: rallentare = to slacken, to slow down, to slacken speed ritardare = to delay, to retard Ritenuto seems to come from ritenere, which means "to hold" (among other things). Yet there are all kinds of variations on these. My "Pocket-Manual of Musical Terms" lists: rallentamento = a slackening in tempo rallentando = growing slower and slower rallentare = to grow slower but rallentate = go slower rallentato = at a slower pace and ritardando = growing slower and slower but ritardato = at a slower pace ritenendo = rallentando ritenente = rallentando but ritenuto = held back, at a slower rate of speed So, as you can see, there is enough potential for confusion here. Nevertheless, the standard abbreviations rit. and rall. both mean the same thing: a gradual slowing down. Ritenuto, an immediate slowing down, is always (should always be) written out in full. Howard -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner If vegetarians eat only vegetables, what do humanitarians eat? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:44:10 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: state of the trombone At 12:35 PM 8/4/2002 -0400, Dslide13@AOL.COM wrote: >What happened to the state of the trombone discussion? -- snip -- >It's an interesting discussion, and it's ironic that it was supplanted by >discussions between myself and others about horns and mouthpieces and >Christmas ornaments. I'm just doing a little self assessment here. Any >thoughts? Well David, you know it is always more fun to talk about the hardware than the music. :) I think you are on track with your comments. The allure of the hyper technical is a factor in both the jazz and "concert hall" circles. If anything, I'd argue that the pursuit of bizarre, odd, technically curious music has been a bigger problem in the concert hall. I'm not sure that Motorbike Concerto or Eine Kleine Posaunemusik do much to build the reputation of the trombone as a legitimate solo instrument. It seems to me that sort of repertoire just reinforces the trombone as a jester's tool, one step removed from Lassus Trombones. On the pop/commercial/jazz scene, the trombone is definitely falling behind the saxophone as a featured instrument, but I'm not sure this is a result of a focus on the technical at the exclusion of the musical. I think there are other factors. 1) The sax is a push button instrument, not all that different from an accordion. When good players play sax, they almost never squeak notes. The very best brass players still have some flubs. To a record company executive, the consistency of the saxophone is probably a pretty good thing. They like everything predictable. 2) We look pretty goofy. Face it folks, the trombone looks awkward. The slide motion is fun for kids to watch, and some adults find it interesting too, but the instrument covers up our faces and we have to make strange contortions while we play. Compare this with a soprano sax. Would Kenny G look like a sexy snake charmer if he were playing the trombone? I think not. It is hard to manage the pelvic thrusts while going for 7th position. That's just the way it is. No need for envy. 3) There aren't many bandleaders who are trombonists these days. During the swing era, there were quite a few. 4) Nobody has pushed the trombone into the limelight lately. Chuck Mangione and Maynard Ferguson were able to carve out a popular niche for their instruments, but as it turned out, this was a personal following they developed. No other players were able to take advantage (to any significant degree) of the openings that Mangione and Ferguson created. Those are some realities, but the picture isn't completely bleak. Trombones are still strong on the Hollywood scheme, maybe even on the ascent. Maybe that will build an audience affinity to the trombone sound, even if they don't know what they're hearing. And don't look now -- trombones rule in the Afro-Cuban genre. It is exciting music that often features a strong trombone section. Afro-Cuban de-emphasize trumpets so as not to be confused with Mexican mariachi music. It is a real growth opportunity for our instrument because the demographics all over the US have rapidly growing Hispanic populations. And finally, a plug for Alan Kaplan's CD. No matter where we wander with the instrument, there is really is no place like home. Alan's treatment of beautiful ballads is an ageless sound. That sound is just as romantic today as when Dorsey and friends were doing it 60 years ago. That sound touches something deep in the nervous system. If more players can develop a mastery of that sound, there will be a place for it in the universe of popular music. So, what mouthpiece do you think Kaplan uses ... :) My 2 cents. Craig ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:19:00 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: state of the trombone its more about the state of music //music types//and ''pop''culture play sync a buch of hotties on mtv --you got it -----back in the shadows --thats where the band is -- or on pbs ---long shots of slides moving --is the image - if you play the bone good enough - here they come -------------------------------you play great sax!!!!!! how many times has that happened to you ????????? ----------------------------------- its a state of culture ---poetry --architecture ---plastic pamelas put them on a car hood -------the struggle is not attractive ---the masses prefer watered down drinks --lite beer - ------------------ the blues band --i got back into it last year -----its too real --these guys are serious it aint a bunch of young punks anymore ------------------------- being good at anything that takes a lot of work is a big turnoff easy answers -anybody can do it --quick money win the lottery ---talent means nothing --luck is everything -------------- --guitars took over long ago -wake up !!!!!!!!!! the 50s is over -------------------- wyntons retro movement -is it real or is it memorex ------------------- but wyntons biggest winning ellington bands are from where ???????? seattle ---- ------------------------- seattle 50 street musician ---2-trombones ----how many in nyc ????? ----------------------------------- is it about trombones or is it about nike swooshes ????????????? everything is an olympic sport ---bottom line -sponsors make a $$$$$ trumpets are so over ----there are only two left doc and wyn nobody played bone since td ---sax the new guy is g the old guy is ----boots---- hire some marketing types -work on your image forget practice --learn to pose -- get some edge fashions that fit and get some sponsors mens tennis >?????????????huh are there any men people magizine you wanna be famous -play your bone in front of spagos --twas there a bone in the movie titanic ????? cant remember -----eh --- get some promo photos by annie lebowitz and get bob brookmeyer into the atlantic ------get bill watrous onto the dave letterman show Dslide13@AOL.COM wrote: > What happened to the state of the trombone discussion? It was recently > brought to my attention that we had a nice conversation going about why the > trombone isn't taken seriously and is completely disregarded by most > non-trombonists. Some, including myself, had even suggested that many > trombonists are preoccupied with technical concerns to the point that it > precludes them from really hearing the music when it's played on the > trombone. That preoccupation with technical concerns could even result in > many trombonists who aspire to play "music" suppressing their musical > tendencies in order to achieve technical mastery. In achieving technical > mastery, these players are compelled to display it at the expense of music > and therefore only appeal to other trombonists. Since trombonists don't call > them for gigs and no other instrumentalists appreciate what they do, they > don't have any gigs and the trombone isn't a visible instrument on the scene. > RIP trombone. > > It's an interesting discussion, and it's ironic that it was supplanted by > discussions between myself and others about horns and mouthpieces and > Christmas ornaments. I'm just doing a little self assessment here. Any > thoughts? > > Peace, > > David Gibson > dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:06:23 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] state of the trombone > > >What happened to the state of the trombone discussion? It was recently >brought to my attention that we had a nice conversation going about why the >trombone isn't taken seriously and is completely disregarded by most >non-trombonists. Some, including myself, had even suggested that many >trombonists are preoccupied with technical concerns to the point that it >precludes them from really hearing the music when it's played on the >trombone. That preoccupation with technical concerns could even result in >many trombonists who aspire to play "music" suppressing their musical >tendencies in order to achieve technical mastery. In achieving technical >mastery, these players are compelled to display it at the expense of music >and therefore only appeal to other trombonists. Since trombonists don't call >them for gigs and no other instrumentalists appreciate what they do, they >don't have any gigs and the trombone isn't a visible instrument on the scene. > RIP trombone. > >It's an interesting discussion, and it's ironic that it was supplanted by >discussions between myself and others about horns and mouthpieces and >Christmas ornaments. I'm just doing a little self assessment here. Any >thoughts? > >Peace, > >David Gibson >dslide13@aol.com =================== Short answer? Most trombonists...jazz. orchestral,whatever...are so obsessed w/the technical difficulties of the horn that they get lost in it, forget to communicate. Unnecessary look-at-me-ma trills and turns, fastest scales ever, high notes low notes loud notes soft notes doodle double triple single menage a trois...no music. Look...who are the trombonists that non-musiciansd and musicians who play other instruments have EVER really listened to? I can only really name 3. Teagarden, Dorsey, and J.J., with maybe 1/2 a point for Trummy Young in his prime, Bill Harris w/Woody and Urbie Green everywhere in the '50s + '60s, Why? Because they did NOT showboat. They COULD, just didn't. They projected, had great sounds, and put the music first. Is there a single CD by any number of "great trombonists" who specialize in stupid trombone tricks in any idiom that is owned by a non-trombonist? I don' think so. senor... S. P.S. Joe Shepley about a very busy player in New York who didn't seem to be particularly great technically (not bad, not good, just there...) when asked why the guy worked so much. "Because he knows when TO and when NOT to." Amen. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:17:20 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] state of the trombone Addendum:The long long long answer.( From a series of previous posts.) Originally posted by ecohouse: I would be interested in finding out why the trombone is such a neglected instrument in jazz. Especially when it is such an important part of its history. There was barely any mention in the Ken Burns documentary. Also the annual Monk Competition has been going on since the 80's and has never had a trombone competition. But last year they had hand percussion. It is just a little too blatant for myself. Do others agree. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ============================== You ask "why the trombone is such a neglected instrument in jazz". You really wanna know? OK, I'm going to tell you. It's because it's too hard to play. There are lots of subtexts to this answer, some of which I will try to cover now, but here it is, basically. It's just too hard to play. And I DON'T necessarily mean too hard to play fast. It's not just the slide that gives us most of our problems, really...in fact, that's not even the biggest drawback. The BIGGEST problem is sound and register...and this goes for orchestral playing as well, really. In order to play the horn loud enough to be heard in a normal contemporary "jazz" context, there are basically only three choices...easy, moderately easy and damned near impossible. The EASIEST way is to play REALLY loud and fairly high...but that almost invariably produces a truly ugly sound and also limits the mobility available on the horn. Thus, no one wants to hear what's being played and the horn is "neglected" as a solo instrument. The moderately easy way is to play VERY softly (and also fairly high) and use a mike. This is fairly simple to do, if you practice it, and allows for great mobility and control on the horn. BUT...it produces a weak and characterless sound, and generally nobody (except perhaps other trombonists) even notices that the horn is BEING played, let alone wants to hear it. Once again, neglect sets in. The third way is to play w/such balance, strength, musicality and economy of means that you transcend these drawbacks, and I say it's damned near impossible because only a handful of players have managed to do so...J.J., Teagarden, Dorsey...a few others, but really a very short list when you consider trombonists who were seriously listened to by large numbers of non-trombonists. This problem has a great deal to do w/the general volume of the ensembles and idioms in which the soloists are playing, and goes through all idioms and all the lower brass as well...french horn, euphonium, tuba, all have to cope w/this to a greater or lesser degree. In the late 1800s and early part of the 20th century, trombone WAS an important part of the jazz and popular musics of America...band soloists like Arthur Pryor abounded, and jazz trombonists were quite prominent right on through the swing era. Bebop brought much greater technical challenges to the horn, and at the volume that people like Tommy Dorsey, Bill Harris and Trummy Young played...and make no mistake, these guys were putting out some AIR...you just couldn't flow through 8th notes in the same way a trumpet or sax could. Only J.J. really solved this problem (and then of course the others who followed him), and he did it by sheer intensity and purity of sound, plus a balance and ability to play w/in the limitations of the horn (and actually USE those limitations to his own advantage) that to my ears were ever only equaled or surpassed by Miles Davis. (No surprise that J.J. considered Miles to be his favorite musician.) The others, great trombonists though they may have been, simply didn't have a sound that demanded attention from non-trombonists and non-musicians. Thus once again..."neglect". And this neglect intensified as leaders and arrangers realized that if they couldn't get one of about 10 players, then there was simply no use in having trombone solos or soloists in their groups. Write a part for one of the few that could do it, and if that person couldn't make the gig, you got a lame solo of some kind. "Better give it to the tenor player." How many times must that phrase (or equivalents thereof) have reverberated through arrangers' skulls in the last 50 years !!! The horn's just too hard to play. Difficult ??? Yes. Impossible ??? No, I don't think so. Think about it. What other instrument has the same kind of support group as the trombone? Hundreds, thousands of players talking to one another...the ITA, the OTJ, the trombone-l...all trying to figure out how to play the damned thing. What other instrument has many, many soloists who really do NOTHING except play instrumental technical exercises in the guise of music...what I like to call "stupid trombone tricks"...and an audience of players large enough to support them? We're all trying in our own ways to solve this puzzle, in both the Western European and more American idioms, and progress is being made...but it's slow. Very slow. Ken Burns didn't give an accurate view of the position and importance of the trombone in jazz through the early '40s because that position no longer exists today, and he (and Wynton) were seeing the past through today colored glasses. Wasn't a plot; Burn's and Marsalis weren't evilly trying to dis the horn...and the Monk competition hasn't had a trombone category (I'm taking your word on this...) but HAS had a hand percussion category because HAND DRUMMING IS MORE IMPORTANT IN TODAY'S MUSIC THAN TROMBONE SOLOING. End of story. Want to make a difference in this system of events? Resolve today never to play another stupid trombone trick while improvising (Easy to say; hard to do...) and practice SOUND and PROJECTION and well as range and velocity. Maybe...just maybe...in 20 years, if enough people do this (and I see evidence of this being the case both in NYC over the PAST 20 years or so and in the tremendous advances in design and manufacture of trombones over the last 10 or so years) the so-called "neglect" of the instrument will come to an end and its amazing potential in terms of musical communication will eventually be more thoroughly realized. We should be so lucky... Later... Sam Burtis ======== [QUOTE]Originally posted by BruceP: [B]Sam - Here's hoping a few of "us" take your words to heart! What you say, here and in other posts, may not be what some of the younger players want to hear, but the truth seldom is. ======================================= Hello... I received a private correspondence from someone about this thread, and decided to post my answer to the forum (and the trombone mailing lists), altered to protect the innocent. Here it is ========================= > > >Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:29:25 -0400 > > >From: sabutin@mindspring.com > >Subject: RE: Real reasons for the musical "neglect" of the trombone > > > >At 08:41 AM 4/10/01 -0500, you wrote: > >>Sam; > >>I read your post here on trombone-l and on the OTJ re: "stupid >trombone tricks". Do you cover this in your book? I just ordered it >from Hickey's. ==================== ("The American Trombone"...this is a plug from Sam.) ======================== > >Who is a good example to listen to who avoids "stupid bone tricks"? >Your friend and mine, (name suppressed), told me of an incident that >happened to him last year which underscores your thought. > >> > >>"...Had a funny experience. Did a jazz gig with a sax player from out of > >>town. GREAT player. I've been working on my fast chops a lot > >>lately and ripped off a couple of burners. At break the sax player > >>said..."Hey, You sound kinda like (name suppressed...fill in your >own favorite fast, light jazz player) and those guys." I was > >>flattered until he said, "Why do bone players want to sound like that? > >>You know nobody except other bone players like listening to that crap!" > >>But you know, he's right. So I've been focusing on letting my technique > >>serve the music instead of letting the music serve my technique..." > >> > >>I guess you're talking about this thing, right? > >> >(name suppressed) >> >======================== I don't cover this idea specifically in the book, but it is implicit to some degree in the physical approach I take to the horn. The book is primarily about how to produce sounds on the instrument. Loud sounds, quiet sounds, high sounds, low sounds, fast, slow...it could be used to help a fast, light style player just as easily as it might be to help someone who wishes to be a symphonic bass trombonist or an extremely aggressive latin player. However, I DO emphasize the communicative power of pure SOUND, and the fact that sound is really the trombone's primary strength. It is my opinion that no amplification or electronic reproduction can capture the full sound of the trombone...or any other acoustic instrument, for that matter...and that although it is almost impossible to avoid electronics in the world as it's set up today, a fine and full acoustic sound is the root of all good trombone playing. Most of the people who ascribe to the lighter school of jazz playing are GREAT players who would be capable of a beautiful sound if they filled the horn, but have decided not to do so in the pursuit of a rapid, fluid style of playing. They sacrifice sound (and the size of their sound, the complexity of the overtones sounding above a given note) for speed. To my ears, this results in a kind of musical failure. If I analyze my gut reaction, it appears to me that no matter HOW fast they play, the intrinsic limitations of the horn stop them from achieving the harmonic and melodic freedom available to almost any good saxophonist, trumpet player, pianist or guitarist. They can play fast, but they can't play fast with the same freedom as John Coltrane or Stan Getz or Clifford Brown or Bill Evans or Charlie Parker or John Abercrombie...the list is endless... Everybody uses licks and patterns to some degree, but the licks and patterns available to even the finest trombonists are MUCH more limited than those available to players of most other instruments. So where does that leave us? It leaves us w/ honesty. The emotional honesty of great singers, of instrumental masters like Miles Davis and Pablo Casals who rejected virtuosity in favor of...in favor of SOUND, I guess you might say. Jack Teagarden, Tommy Dorsey, and above all J.J. Johnson (there are of course many other examples...)...all realized this, and they all successfully made the limitations of the instrument its STRENGTH. The great NYC bass trombonist and dedicated wiseguy Alan Raph (whose book "Le Trombone" is the funniest book about ANY instrument I have ever seen) once sidled past me as I was practicing some fast scales backstage before a gig and stage whispered "Trying to be the world's fastest trombone player is like trying to be the world's tallest midget". I have never forgotten this sage bit of advice, even though I, like almost every other contemporary jazz trombonist, work as hard as I can to get the maximum amount of mobility possible on the horn. But never at the sacrifice of SOUND. That's what the book is really about. Sound. You want a REALLY good book about trombone playing? Pick up a book by an Indian musician named Hazrat Inayat Khan called "The Mysticism of Sound and Music". (Barnes + Noble online has it, and I imagine Amazon and the other online bookstores have it as well.) Changed everything I ever thought about playing. Everything. Later... Sam Burtis ========================================= >>What happened to the state of the trombone discussion? It was recently >>brought to my attention that we had a nice conversation going about why the >>trombone isn't taken seriously and is completely disregarded by most >>non-trombonists. Some, including myself, had even suggested that many >>trombonists are preoccupied with technical concerns to the point that it >>precludes them from really hearing the music when it's played on the >>trombone. That preoccupation with technical concerns could even result in >>many trombonists who aspire to play "music" suppressing their musical >>tendencies in order to achieve technical mastery. In achieving technical >>mastery, these players are compelled to display it at the expense of music >>and therefore only appeal to other trombonists. Since trombonists don't call >>them for gigs and no other instrumentalists appreciate what they do, they >>don't have any gigs and the trombone isn't a visible instrument on the scene. >> RIP trombone. >> >>It's an interesting discussion, and it's ironic that it was supplanted by >>discussions between myself and others about horns and mouthpieces and >>Christmas ornaments. I'm just doing a little self assessment here. Any >>thoughts? >> >>Peace, >> >>David Gibson >>dslide13@aol.com > >=================== > > Short answer? > > Most trombonists...jazz. orchestral,whatever...are so obsessed >w/the technical difficulties of the horn that they get lost in it, >forget to communicate. > > Unnecessary look-at-me-ma trills and turns, fastest scales ever, >high notes low notes loud notes soft notes doodle double triple >single menage a trois...no music. > > Look...who are the trombonists that non-musiciansd and musicians >who play other instruments have EVER really listened to? > > I can only really name 3. > > Teagarden, Dorsey, and J.J., with maybe 1/2 a point for Trummy >Young in his prime, Bill Harris w/Woody and Urbie Green everywhere in >the '50s + '60s, > > Why? Because they did NOT showboat. They COULD, just didn't. > > They projected, had great sounds, and put the music first. > > Is there a single CD by any number of "great trombonists" who >specialize in stupid trombone tricks in any idiom that is owned by a >non-trombonist? > > I don' think so. senor... > > S. > > P.S. Joe Shepley about a very busy player in New York who didn't >seem to be particularly great technically (not bad, not good, just >there...) when asked why the guy worked so much. > > "Because he knows when TO and when NOT to." > > Amen. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:30:46 EDT From: Dslide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] state of the trombone In a message dated 8/4/02 2:24:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sabutin@MINDSPRING.COM writes: > Resolve today never to play another stupid trombone trick while > improvising (Easy to say; hard to do...) and practice SOUND and > PROJECTION and well as range and velocity. > Amen. David Gibson dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:36:23 -0400 From: David Shriver Subject: Re: Rit. vs Rallent. Thanks for the lesson on musical terminology Howard! This is the exact reason that I carry a small music dictionary around in my music bag. There have been many occasions that I've had to look up something while the conductor is trying to get the coronets to play that 188 m.m. sextuplet run correctly. :) Clear Skies, David Shriver Bass Trombone Brass Band of the Tri-State www.bbts.info -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Howard Weiner Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 6:38 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Rit. vs Rallent. At 18:46 03.08.02 -0400, David Buckley wrote: >Rit means an immediate slowing while Rall means gradual. Of course with most >conductors you can't tell the difference. David, Without realizing it you've added yet another component to this discussion: ritenuto, which however is not abbreviated "rit." According to the Harvard Dictionary of Music: "Ritardando, abbr. rit., ritard., [It.]. Gradually slackening in speed, also indicated by rallentando [abbr. rall.]. Ritenuto properly calls for immediate reduction of speed." According to my Italian dictionary: rallentare = to slacken, to slow down, to slacken speed ritardare = to delay, to retard Ritenuto seems to come from ritenere, which means "to hold" (among other things). Yet there are all kinds of variations on these. My "Pocket-Manual of Musical Terms" lists: rallentamento = a slackening in tempo rallentando = growing slower and slower rallentare = to grow slower but rallentate = go slower rallentato = at a slower pace and ritardando = growing slower and slower but ritardato = at a slower pace ritenendo = rallentando ritenente = rallentando but ritenuto = held back, at a slower rate of speed So, as you can see, there is enough potential for confusion here. Nevertheless, the standard abbreviations rit. and rall. both mean the same thing: a gradual slowing down. Ritenuto, an immediate slowing down, is always (should always be) written out in full. Howard -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner If vegetarians eat only vegetables, what do humanitarians eat? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:39:00 EDT From: Dslide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: state of the trombone I must disagree that ballads don't sell. Ballads don't sell to trombonists, but other people buy them. John Coltrane's "Ballads" is one of the classics that comes to mind. People do lay down the cash for that one. Maybe the reason that no one lays down cash for a trombone ballads album lies in your 'Sound' commentary. Not to mention, when all someone focuses on is technical prowess they aren't developing their sound. Sound is where it's at. Burtis is right on the money with that. Your sound is your voice. When a great orator stands in front of a group of people, he doesn't command attention with a weak voice. Many trombonists sound like mealy mouthed politicians whose timbre is non committal, and whose words display vocabulary skills while conveying no message. We don't need any more politicians. We need men of action. We need............ In a message dated 8/4/02 2:28:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, billredgate@ATTBI.com writes: > Mr Gibson; > > > I whole heartedly agree with you on this one! The only problem is that > , > no matter what we say, the guys who get listened to and respected as > "influences" are all technical monsters who of course have to display that > skill enough to gain their market share. This of course goes back to Mr. > Greenhoe's comments of last week - regarding the lack of bravery in Music. > The guys who are (technical) Monsters will show it and even if they're also > incredibly talented Musicians (Watrous comes to mind) what gets noticed is > how fast they play notes. It has been mentioned here that the Trombone > looks a bit ungainly. I suppose that's probably the reason that all this > is. Because It just doesn't look like you should be able to do that. To a > beginner , the slide is a hugely challenging thing , and I would wager that > , deep down inside , most of us never get over that attitude. > > I was privileged to attend a clinic by Bill Watrous - many years ago at > the > University of Delaware. He was asked endlessly about HOW he achieved his > degree of technical mastery. In an hours worth of questions , only one was > about ballad styling and musicality. He claimed to be happy to have had > that question asked, but the seething mob returned to their endless quest > for "notes" immediately and irretrievably. I guess that's just what > "sells." Ballads don't seem to move people anymore unless they're played > entirely above high Bflat and contain at least a few notes more than an > octave above that. > > It's the same though, with SOUND. In schools and colleges today , > there is > ONE trombone sound and everyone is aspiring to it. I find that > particularly > odious! Find the sound YOU like and make it. Unfortunately, music has > gotten so competitive and the people administering the competition so > spineless, that there must now be a standard to refer to, so that no one > actually has to decide whether they really like one sound or style better > than another - that sort of thing just isn't measurable - and intangibility > just doesn't play in our society today. People don't want something they > really like anymore, they want "the Best." The only way they can get that > is > to provide some standard of measurement. Notes are easy. Trying to decide > who's better - between Ella and Sarah - that's tough. No one wants to work > too hard anymore - but they have to have "the best". Welcome to America. > > All of which above could have been summed up in "yes you're right." I > apologize for having taken your time. This has been a pet peeve of mine > since I was very young and I just got carried away. I won't send this to > the list since I don't want to get the discussion sidetracked with comments > on my syntax and punctuation and the like. I would like to thank you > however for bringing this up on the list. We will all benefit from it. > > I have not yet bought your CD, but as soon as I can save up some spare > scratch , I will. The positive reviews were not enough to make me loose up > the cash - This exposition of your mindset is. Thank you and keep playing > the music - and forget the NOTES. > > Bill Redgate > > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Dslide13@AOL.COM > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 12:36 > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: [TBN-L] state of the trombone > > > What happened to the state of the trombone discussion? It was recently > brought to my attention that we had a nice conversation going about why the > trombone isn't taken seriously and is completely disregarded by most > non-trombonists. Some, including myself, had even suggested that many > trombonists are preoccupied with technical concerns to the point that it > precludes them from really hearing the music when it's played on the > trombone. That preoccupation with technical concerns could even result in > many trombonists who aspire to play "music" suppressing their musical > tendencies in order to achieve technical mastery. In achieving technical > mastery, these players are compelled to display it at the expense of music > and therefore only appeal to other trombonists. Since trombonists don't > call > them for gigs and no other instrumentalists appreciate what they do, they > don't have any gigs and the trombone isn't a visible instrument on the > scene. > RIP trombone. > > It's an interesting discussion, and it's ironic that it was supplanted by > discussions between myself and others about horns and mouthpieces and > Christmas ornaments. I'm just doing a little self assessment here. Any > thoughts? > > Peace, > > David Gibson > dslide13@aol.com > > David Gibson dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:43:56 -0400 From: David Buckley Subject: Re: Spooky Either that or Three's enough. Dave the elder. Adrian Drover wrote: > From: "David Buckley" > > > And only one David in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada that I know of. Some say > > that is more than enough. > > Plus Dave Burch in Hamilton, Ohio and Dave Hankin in Hamilton, Scotland I'd > say "three's a crowd". > > A. > > Adrian Drover > ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk > Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:46:41 -0400 From: David Buckley Subject: Re: Rit. vs Rallent. Thanks howard. Learn something every day. Dave. Howard Weiner wrote: > At 18:46 03.08.02 -0400, David Buckley wrote: > >Rit means an immediate slowing while Rall means gradual. Of course with most > >conductors you can't tell the difference. > > David, > Without realizing it you've added yet another component to this discussion: > ritenuto, which however is not abbreviated "rit." > > According to the Harvard Dictionary of Music: > "Ritardando, abbr. rit., ritard., [It.]. Gradually slackening in speed, > also indicated by rallentando [abbr. rall.]. Ritenuto properly calls for > immediate reduction of speed." > > According to my Italian dictionary: > rallentare = to slacken, to slow down, to slacken speed > ritardare = to delay, to retard > > Ritenuto seems to come from ritenere, which means "to hold" (among other > things). > > Yet there are all kinds of variations on these. My "Pocket-Manual of > Musical Terms" lists: > > rallentamento = a slackening in tempo > rallentando = growing slower and slower > rallentare = to grow slower > but > rallentate = go slower > rallentato = at a slower pace > > and > > ritardando = growing slower and slower > but > ritardato = at a slower pace > > ritenendo = rallentando > ritenente = rallentando > but > ritenuto = held back, at a slower rate of speed > > So, as you can see, there is enough potential for confusion here. > Nevertheless, the standard abbreviations rit. and rall. both mean the same > thing: a gradual slowing down. Ritenuto, an immediate slowing down, is > always (should always be) written out in full. > > Howard > > -- > Howard Weiner > weiner@privat.toplink.de > http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner > > If vegetarians eat only vegetables, what do humanitarians eat? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:20:55 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: state of the trombone too many noodles spoil the soup !!!!!! i play happy birthday without getting off the melody --its not about bones in the soup its about noodles saxplayers are more notorious --lead guitar syndrome its not the type of horn its a diva //mic hog //egomaniac obsessive on automatic me me me ------the rest of you -----you are back up /sidemen the show biz types ----well they need and feed off the audience --its the diff in ''''self--abuse'''''' off and makin luv --- they gotta see part of themselves in you or its nowhere if they cant relate ----no repeats one time thru ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------=========== my first duty is to entertain //// my second duty is at appreciate and listen to the people in the room and the band my third duty is to let all of them share the light the songs you write ----the painting you paint clothes you design ---its about you but - people can relate to it same for opera ==== cats -rent----- whatever --------------- the old style bluegrass players --no smilin no movin just pickin --the message is about the life of the people you gotta listen close ---to loretta lynn -------------------------------- who is your audience -5 guys ?????? --------- if you wanna make your music palatable to non trombonists -- how about keyboard [just kidding add some ''''chick ''''singers --ha ha --- it about the music first -- trombone is the tool ////the medium used you gotta get past the bone to get to the core or what you want to say its the musical ideas the content -- your self image that comes across personality emotions involvement ///detachment this guy is good plus he has something to say ---------------- this cats chops are great -but --cant play s/////// --- this guy is weak but did you hear that one note ???? ------ make your music delicious -yummy ---tasty ---sweet and sour spicy ---make it cuisine --a beautiful looking plate -- you are all of these things ------and beyond tom cruise plays bone ----harrison ford plays bone denzel plays bone -----jimmy stewert plays bone [huh] cosby plays bass bone julia plays bone gweneth plays bone ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:37:57 EDT From: BJMCHAFFIE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: state of the trombone A couple of Sundays back I was asked if that was my Oboe.. I think we lack a front man or woman who gets national coverage like Tommy Dorsey did. beldon wade ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:35:44 EDT From: BJMCHAFFIE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sad Mingus Big Band Maybe they ate too many bangers before the gig. beldon wade ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:40:34 -0500 From: Richard Zemry Johnson Subject: Re: state of the trombone Interesting topic. Trombonists have a preoccupation with playing trombone.........and NOT with playing music. The object of the game is not to play high, fast and loud. The object is to play music that the PEOPLE enjoy and not STUFF that other trombonists say, "WOW!!!" over. Trombonists congregate and talk about how loud "so and so" plays in a major symphony or how fast "so and so" plays bebop or how high (or low) "so and so" played with his band. The trombone, perhaps more so than most instruments, requires a large amount of athleticism, that is, technique and physical facility. The only sport that I could possibly equate it with is golf, which requires a large amount of physical dexterity and technique. However, unlike golf, playing trombone is not a sport and the focus is not on the physical. The focus is on music and communicating that music to the audience. I've heard several amateur trombonists compliment on how fast and high Bill Watrous and Carl Fontana play. That's like looking at a movie with the "mute" button on! You aren't getting the whole story. As trombonists, we need to concentrate on not only listening to the whole story, as performers we need to concentrate on TELLING the whole story. Play with an emphasis on musicianship. Deemphasize technique for technique's sake. Technique is a tool that is used to tell a story. Technique is not the point of the story. When we write on this forum, we don't use big words for big words sake. We use the words that we feel will help us communicate our point the most. Now, how can we popularize our humble friend, the trombone. First, we have to get people used to hearing the trombone played beautifully and soulfully. Play the trombone in church. You owe it to the instrument! Play nice simple melodies. Concentrate on the music. Trust me, the audience will love to hear you play. In addition, Secondly, play pop tunes on the instrument. This is not sacrilege. People like pop tunes. There is nothing inherently evil with pop tunes. Trombones can play more than just jazz and classical. Think about it, more people hear church music and pop music than hear jazz and classical music. You popularize the trombone by playing "popular" music. Quite a simple concept, really. If kids, at church or elsewhere, hear the trombone playing the music that they like to hear, then (1) they may consider playing the trombone themselves and or (2)they will learn to hear the trombone as something as natural as the saxophone and not just an "exotic" instrument. Sooner or later, one of those young minds will take that trombone and go where no trombonist has gone before...straight to the top of popular culture! Just one trombonist opinion, which probably isn't woth a whole lot in the world today. -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Dslide13@AOL.COM Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 11:36 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] state of the trombone What happened to the state of the trombone discussion? It was recently brought to my attention that we had a nice conversation going about why the trombone isn't taken seriously and is completely disregarded by most non-trombonists. Some, including myself, had even suggested that many trombonists are preoccupied with technical concerns to the point that it precludes them from really hearing the music when it's played on the trombone. That preoccupation with technical concerns could even result in many trombonists who aspire to play "music" suppressing their musical tendencies in order to achieve technical mastery. In achieving technical mastery, these players are compelled to display it at the expense of music and therefore only appeal to other trombonists. Since trombonists don't call them for gigs and no other instrumentalists appreciate what they do, they don't have any gigs and the trombone isn't a visible instrument on the scene. RIP trombone. It's an interesting discussion, and it's ironic that it was supplanted by discussions between myself and others about horns and mouthpieces and Christmas ornaments. I'm just doing a little self assessment here. Any thoughts? Peace, David Gibson dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:52:04 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Sad Mingus Big Band >Maybe they ate too many bangers before the gig. > >beldon wade =========== I don't believe I got the original post(s) on/this subject. Anyone save them? Sam P.S. And did anyone else miss them? If so, what's up w/the list? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:04:33 EDT From: ALFORDMB@AOL.COM Subject: Re: state of the trombone I'd like to pick up on David Gibson's post regarding ballads vs. , etc. There was a lot there. I'm a jazz listener and a trombone generalist, I guess I'd say. But I truly love a good trombone rendition of a ballad, and that to me means, leave out the acrobatics please. A ballad is a sung story, and that's the way it should be played. To a great extent your voice - your sound - should compliment the story. That means everything from silky broad toned, to husky breathy sound, to plunger muted blues. It's the story in music and 'bones have got what it takes. I get lost when the player goes off on a technical ride, either in the "stratosphere", or down "tongue-tech alley". That almost always comes off as gimicky and not appropriate to the music. One of you used the words, "play the music, not the notes, and another way to put it is play from the heart, not the head. I'm glad to hear David and others talk about musicality especially in context with trombone performance. I think more of our bright, talented trombonists today would go that way except for one thing: Marketing. Marketing has become a racket in America. You have to have marketer to get heard, and you have to have a gimick to get a marketer, etc. etc. and so forth. A gimmick? Just look at the gimmicks one rock band uses! The genuine artists end up trying to be their own marketer and lose out to the money-power ad-houses. When you hear phrases like "people want" this or that, it means one thing: "these people" are brainwashed to want this or that - by the marketers of course. OK! End of sermon! (Don't get me started! ;-)) Anyway, it's good to have players like David, and others who are trying to keep the faith, participate on this list. we need to encourage and support them! We'll find and buy your music, David! Mike Alford ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:43:37 -0700 From: "James W. Yardley" Subject: Re: state of the trombone For a college trombone student, without a gig for the summer, who is struggling to find the motivation to practice, this thread has done it for me. I'm really thankful for Paul Kemp who got this topic started. He's been a huge help for me though this list and private e-mails. For me, however, this discussion isn't going the direction I hoped it would. It started to, in Paul's first message when he said; "When you're at home, and you're preparing something, try to have a definite idea in your mind of what you the phrase to sound like. You may have to break this down into several parts, such as which group of notes you intend to phrase together, the type of articulation you want to use, what choice of positions you intend to use (a pencil is very valuable for this), where you are going to breathe, the volume at which you are going to play at, and the speed you're going to play it." The message I'm hearing from everyone is "play more musically" rather than "here's what you need to do to play more musically." While I'm at it, I'll open another can of worms....I don't think musicality is something you're born with and can't attain through hard work and practice. HOW do you play more musically? HOW do you decide what articulation is appropriate? One thing my teacher has me do with rochuts is write in all of my breath markings and all of my crescendos and descrescendos. It forces me to "plan" out MY musical ideas. Most visual artists do this I would imagine? Don't they FIRST sketch, THEN paint/sculpt/whatever? I would like to hear more about the PROCESS of playing more musically. I would guess it has a lot to do with listening to the masters (not just trombone players) in music. Obviously we have our own opinions on who the masters are, but I think that's where we can "make the music our own," as some have been saying. If we all listen to the people we believe are the best, and incoporate that into our own playing, we'll all sound different....in thoery. Ok, I'm getting away from my purpose of the message. I want to hear what the professionals are doing to play musically, because I know they aren't just sitting down and saying "ok, i'm going to think about the music." There's got to be more to it than that. Take care, James Yardley -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Dslide13@AOL.COM Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 9:36 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: state of the trombone What happened to the state of the trombone discussion? It was recently brought to my attention that we had a nice conversation going about why the trombone isn't taken seriously and is completely disregarded by most non-trombonists. Some, including myself, had even suggested that many trombonists are preoccupied with technical concerns to the point that it precludes them from really hearing the music when it's played on the trombone. That preoccupation with technical concerns could even result in many trombonists who aspire to play "music" suppressing their musical tendencies in order to achieve technical mastery. In achieving technical mastery, these players are compelled to display it at the expense of music and therefore only appeal to other trombonists. Since trombonists don't call them for gigs and no other instrumentalists appreciate what they do, they don't have any gigs and the trombone isn't a visible instrument on the scene. RIP trombone. It's an interesting discussion, and it's ironic that it was supplanted by discussions between myself and others about horns and mouthpieces and Christmas ornaments. I'm just doing a little self assessment here. Any thoughts? Peace, David Gibson dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:25:47 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: state of the trombone Zemry states: Trombonists have a preoccupation with playing trombone.........and NOT with playing music. ========================================================= Not too long ago there was a poll question on the OTJ forum that asked if playing piano made you a better trombone player. I replied that I thought the question was poorly worded because playing piano can't really improve any aspect of how you physically work a trombone, but it does do a plethora of things that make you a better musician, and isn't that really the point. I must have worded my response in an offending tone, because the author of the question came back quite defensively, as if I said he was a poor writer. What I was trying to point out was the mindset evidenced by the wording "better trombone player" instead of "better musician." I don't think he ever really got the point. I agree with most of what has been said, but I don't think that trombonists are alone. One of the most popular trumpet players today is Arturo Sandoval, and I think a large part of what he does is trumpet jockey stuff. I am not denying that he can be very musical, but he can also be very flashy. I found it very interesting that the same day the "music first" discussion started, another poster spoke of an Arturo Sandoval concert as if it were an athletic event. He played really high, and really fast, and he wasted all the other cats on stage. If they brought back the lions and the Christians, it would probably get pretty good ratings. Where trombonists suffer is that when saxophonists, trumpeters, guitarists, etc. take place in musical athletics it is showy and flashy and entertaining. It's like the slam dunk contest. When trombonists do that it is like watching the NFL lineman's slam dunk contest. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:24:35 -0500 From: greg waits Subject: Re: state of the trombone After having read sp many of these posts regarding the current state (dilemma) of the trombone, I finally decided to add my opinion. There have been much input on the topic, and I agree with most everything that has been added here. The one thing that is most important to keep in mind (as far as I see it) is this: play melodies! Face it, most of the listening/buying public don't have the ability or the inclination to absorb all these burning choruses that players (on ALL instrumsnts) spew forth. I am not saying that we need to play for the listeners solely, because if we do, our love of music and the pursuance of what WE hear will be sacrificed in the meantime. Without a doubt, we as players need to strike a balance, and know our audience. I played a private party (for Ross Perot - you should see HIM dance lol), and the sax player was another in a long line of "angry young tenors". Every chorus he played was the cliched "sheets of sound" (no slur intended on Trane). He played all manner of altered scales, and frankly was taking it "out". After one of his long winded solos, he looked over at me sheepishly and said: "Maybe I am not playing appropriately for this gig". (duhh!) >From my own experience, most younger jazz players go through a period when they try to play everything they know, and usually it all gets played in the first chorus! Where do you go from there? How do you expect to build an effective solo when you have been double-timing right from measure one? I say this because I have been there. I used to try and incorporate all the burning "licks" that I copped off of solos I had transcribed earlier. Somewhere along the way, I think I matured as a player. While I think I can still play fast when it seems appropriate, I would rather look for the right notes and strive for good tone. Dexter Gordon comes to mind when I think on this! He could tell a solo, and he could play fast too, but not at the expense of musicallity and sound! I tell students all the time: Work on your sound, and technique will follow. I would much rather hear a player with a great sound playing slower, than a fast player with bad tone! No matter what a soloist is laying out in terms of speedball playing, if his/her tone is sad, I don't want to hear it. Great topic! GW >From: Richard Zemry Johnson >Reply-To: Richard Zemry Johnson >To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU >Subject: Re: [TBN-L] state of the trombone >Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:40:34 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from po.missouri.edu ([128.206.12.137]) by >mc2-f36.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Sun, 4 Aug >2002 13:03:30 -0700 >Received: from po.missouri.edu (po.missouri.edu [128.206.12.137])by >po.missouri.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g74Ji0j21364;Sun, 4 Aug 2002 >14:44:00 -0500 >Received: from PO.MISSOURI.EDU by PO.MISSOURI.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release > 1.8e) with spool id 147075 for TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU; Sun, 4 >Aug 2002 14:43:59 -0500 >Received: from imf22bis.bellsouth.net (mail022.mail.bellsouth.net >[205.152.58.62]) by po.missouri.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id >g74Jhwj21347 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 >14:43:58 -0500 >Received: from k6 ([66.157.170.234]) by imf22bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail > vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with SMTP id ><20020804194352.VYAE15974.imf22bis.bellsouth.net@k6> for >; Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:43:52 -0400 >X-Priority: 3 (Normal) >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 >Importance: Normal >Message-ID: >Sender: "Trombones and related issues forum." >In-Reply-To: >Precedence: list >Return-Path: owner-trombone-l@PO.MISSOURI.EDU >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2002 20:03:30.0364 (UTC) >FILETIME=[00EFDFC0:01C23BF2] > >Interesting topic. Trombonists have a preoccupation with playing >trombone.........and NOT with playing music. The object of the game is not >to play high, fast and loud. The object is to play music that the PEOPLE >enjoy and not STUFF that other trombonists say, "WOW!!!" over. Trombonists >congregate and talk about how loud "so and so" plays in a major symphony or >how fast "so and so" plays bebop or how high (or low) "so and so" played >with his band. >The trombone, perhaps more so than most instruments, requires a large >amount >of athleticism, that is, technique and physical facility. The only sport >that I could possibly equate it with is golf, which requires a large amount >of physical dexterity and technique. However, unlike golf, playing trombone >is not a sport and the focus is not on the physical. The focus is on music >and communicating that music to the audience. >I've heard several amateur trombonists compliment on how fast and high Bill >Watrous and Carl Fontana play. That's like looking at a movie with the >"mute" button on! You aren't getting the whole story. >As trombonists, we need to concentrate on not only listening to the whole >story, as performers we need to concentrate on TELLING the whole story. >Play >with an emphasis on musicianship. Deemphasize technique for technique's >sake. Technique is a tool that is used to tell a story. Technique is not >the >point of the story. When we write on this forum, we don't use big words for >big words sake. We use the words that we feel will help us communicate our >point the most. >Now, how can we popularize our humble friend, the trombone. First, we have >to get people used to hearing the trombone played beautifully and >soulfully. >Play the trombone in church. You owe it to the instrument! Play nice simple >melodies. Concentrate on the music. Trust me, the audience will love to >hear >you play. In addition, >Secondly, play pop tunes on the instrument. This is not sacrilege. People >like pop tunes. There is nothing inherently evil with pop tunes. Trombones >can play more than just jazz and classical. Think about it, more people >hear >church music and pop music than hear jazz and classical music. You >popularize the trombone by playing "popular" music. Quite a simple concept, >really. >If kids, at church or elsewhere, hear the trombone playing the music that >they like to hear, then (1) they may consider playing the trombone >themselves and or (2)they will learn to hear the trombone as something as >natural as the saxophone and not just an "exotic" instrument. Sooner or >later, one of those young minds will take that trombone and go where no >trombonist has gone before...straight to the top of popular culture! >Just one trombonist opinion, which probably isn't woth a whole lot in the >world today. >-----Original Message----- >From: Trombones and related issues forum. >[mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Dslide13@AOL.COM >Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 11:36 AM >To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU >Subject: [TBN-L] state of the trombone > > >What happened to the state of the trombone discussion? It was recently >brought to my attention that we had a nice conversation going about why the >trombone isn't taken seriously and is completely disregarded by most >non-trombonists. Some, including myself, had even suggested that many >trombonists are preoccupied with technical concerns to the point that it >precludes them from really hearing the music when it's played on the >trombone. That preoccupation with technical concerns could even result in >many trombonists who aspire to play "music" suppressing their musical >tendencies in order to achieve technical mastery. In achieving technical >mastery, these players are compelled to display it at the expense of music >and therefore only appeal to other trombonists. Since trombonists don't >call >them for gigs and no other instrumentalists appreciate what they do, they >don't have any gigs and the trombone isn't a visible instrument on the >scene. > RIP trombone. > >It's an interesting discussion, and it's ironic that it was supplanted by >discussions between myself and others about horns and mouthpieces and >Christmas ornaments. I'm just doing a little self assessment here. Any >thoughts? > >Peace, > >David Gibson >dslide13@aol.com _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 17:27:46 EDT From: SFTrombone@AOL.COM Subject: seeking used King 3B A friend of mine seeks a used King 3B, no valve. Anyone selling? Please email privately or call. Thanks, Steve Ferguson Los Angeles 818 951 9598 sftrombone@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:29:43 -0600 From: David Oliver Subject: Re: state of the trombone The DCB may do a different thing at our February concert where two DCB'ers play solos with the band (one in each half). Auditions would be necessary of course, but I'm almost ready to buy the Rimksy-Korsakov, partly because it would be a trombone solo (and a fairly accessible piece at that). I've exchanged a couple of e-mails with Doug Yeo already (he's checking his account at Tanglewood). Some might remember that I reviewed his "Take 1" CD for the OTJ way back when - actually a few years ago I think. I believe Doug still has it on his website. It's still the only version of the Rimsky-Korskov I've heard, but it was my first exposure to it. I also found an old exhange on the list in my in-box from June 2000 about the Rimksy, as someone was thinking of doing the same thing and asking for advice. I think that one other lister/DCB trombone player is also thinking of trying out for a bass trombone solo. We haven't talked about it, but I saw his post to the list some weeks ago... BTW, seeing John Daley (Colorado Symph.) doing "Blue Bells of Scotland" at a recent joint band concert this summer was great, if only for the fact that it wasn't a trumpet or saxophone (he also did it very well from memory). I'll keep you all posted. I wrote Hickeys on the "Rimsky..." arrangements (they sell three), and the Kalmus edition was recommended. Doug noted that he had a "Music Minus One" on LP from back in the early seventies. No matter what you are doing, challenges in life are a good thing. I'm going to keep Paul Kemp's post in mind if this whole thing happens. David Oliver Broomfield, Colorado USA Trombone, Denver Concert Band P.S. It seems that one of the places the trombone is taken "more" seriously might be in the big band setting, as people tend to remember fellows like Glenn Miller and Tommy Dorsey - two of the more successful band leaders during that era. I'm also big Ragtime (and also Dixieland) person, and I can't imagine a trombone *not* being involved in either one. Dslide13@AOL.COM wrote: > What happened to the state of the trombone discussion? It was recently > brought to my attention that we had a nice conversation going about why the > trombone isn't taken seriously and is completely disregarded by most > non-trombonists... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 17:50:52 EDT From: BJMCHAFFIE@AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: [TBN-L] state of the trombone --part1_176.c65e2f3.2a7efbbc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/4/02 4:49:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time, BJMCHAFFIE writes: > Subj:Re: [TBN-L] state of the trombone > Date:8/4/02 4:49:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time > From:BJMCHAFFIE > To:jeff@jeffalbert.com > > > > Great Ballad Material.. > > Gershwin's Summertime > > Body, Heart, Soul pushed through a Trombone. > > beldon wade --part1_176.c65e2f3.2a7efbbc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great Ballad Material.. Gershwin's Summertime Body, Heart, Soul pushed through a Trombone. beldon wade --part1_176.c65e2f3.2a7efbbc_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 17:56:37 EDT From: BJMCHAFFIE@AOL.COM Subject: Front Lady Abbie Conant with NY Phil doin' Pops. beldon wade ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 16:55:02 -0500 From: Richard Zemry Johnson Subject: Re: state of the trombone Good point, James. One can learn to play in a musical fashion. I don't think that there is one, set way to play musical. Sometimes, there is no "correct" way to play something.....just your way. Musicality is interpreting a phrase or song. One can interpret a phrase in more than one manner. It is playing in a "singing" manner. Music is not always about correctness and not-correctness, for lack of a better term. It is playing something that people enjoy! Listen to J.J. Johnson interpret a song...it can be stacco, legato, the attack or non-attack of a note. It is all subtle things that we should think about but never do. Interpretation is creativity. Making music is about creativity. Think otside of the box. Think about how you can make music....not whether someone can teach you how to make music. Hmmmmmm, it may be far-fetched, but kinda like learning how to bar-b-que. Someone may teach you how they do it, but pretty soon, you will be doing it your own way. Not wrong, just different! Individuality and personality make music. It comes from within you. In school, you learn the basic rules of grammar, but eventually you learn to write your own way. The same way with music, learn the basics, then find your own way. By doing so, you contribute to the vastness of human knowledge. -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of James W. Yardley Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:44 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] state of the trombone For a college trombone student, without a gig for the summer, who is struggling to find the motivation to practice, this thread has done it for me. I'm really thankful for Paul Kemp who got this topic started. He's been a huge help for me though this list and private e-mails. For me, however, this discussion isn't going the direction I hoped it would. It started to, in Paul's first message when he said; "When you're at home, and you're preparing something, try to have a definite idea in your mind of what you the phrase to sound like. You may have to break this down into several parts, such as which group of notes you intend to phrase together, the type of articulation you want to use, what choice of positions you intend to use (a pencil is very valuable for this), where you are going to breathe, the volume at which you are going to play at, and the speed you're going to play it." The message I'm hearing from everyone is "play more musically" rather than "here's what you need to do to play more musically." While I'm at it, I'll open another can of worms....I don't think musicality is something you're born with and can't attain through hard work and practice. HOW do you play more musically? HOW do you decide what articulation is appropriate? One thing my teacher has me do with rochuts is write in all of my breath markings and all of my crescendos and descrescendos. It forces me to "plan" out MY musical ideas. Most visual artists do this I would imagine? Don't they FIRST sketch, THEN paint/sculpt/whatever? I would like to hear more about the PROCESS of playing more musically. I would guess it has a lot to do with listening to the masters (not just trombone players) in music. Obviously we have our own opinions on who the masters are, but I think that's where we can "make the music our own," as some have been saying. If we all listen to the people we believe are the best, and incoporate that into our own playing, we'll all sound different....in thoery. Ok, I'm getting away from my purpose of the message. I want to hear what the professionals are doing to play musically, because I know they aren't just sitting down and saying "ok, i'm going to think about the music." There's got to be more to it than that. Take care, James Yardley -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Dslide13@AOL.COM Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 9:36 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: state of the trombone What happened to the state of the trombone discussion? It was recently brought to my attention that we had a nice conversation going about why the trombone isn't taken seriously and is completely disregarded by most non-trombonists. Some, including myself, had even suggested that many trombonists are preoccupied with technical concerns to the point that it precludes them from really hearing the music when it's played on the trombone. That preoccupation with technical concerns could even result in many trombonists who aspire to play "music" suppressing their musical tendencies in order to achieve technical mastery. In achieving technical mastery, these players are compelled to display it at the expense of music and therefore only appeal to other trombonists. Since trombonists don't call them for gigs and no other instrumentalists appreciate what they do, they don't have any gigs and the trombone isn't a visible instrument on the scene. RIP trombone. It's an interesting discussion, and it's ironic that it was supplanted by discussions between myself and others about horns and mouthpieces and Christmas ornaments. I'm just doing a little self assessment here. Any thoughts? Peace, David Gibson dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 18:13:01 -0400 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] state of the trombone A lot of this discussion I covered in my post on Don't Play Safe. Yes, the trombone is, in my opinion, the most difficult wind instrument to play, both from the physical point of view, as well as the musical point of view as well. I have discovered several things that I would call "life lessons". The first thing that we must learn to do is to produce the notes on the instrument. This comes easier for some people than others. Then there comes the matter of getting a true characteristic trombone sound. You do this through listening to as many players, both live and on recordings, as possible. This is a very time consuming process, and letting the sound of the instrument just "wash over you" then try to reproduce that sound takes time. I'm always trying to make my sound more beautiful. Then there's this matter of dealing with moving the slide between notes. Making the slide arrive at the right place at the right time. If you're still of this notion that there are 7 positions on the trombone, then you haven't been playing long enough. There are many subtle adjustments that must be made depending both on the overtone series and the key that you happen to be playing in, and again, this is not something that is learned overnight, but I am more and more convinced that experience is the most valuable teacher. Arnold Jacobs' teachings have probably helped me more than anything in the past few years. Silence doesn't fix anything. You have to get out there and play for folks in whatever musical medium is available for you to do it in, and as you do this, and you must adopt this attitude that there is always something more to learn about music as an art form and also about the trombone as an instrument. I have a student that will be starting college in about 10 days. He played a solo in church this morning. Was it perfect? NO. And this student knew that. He tried something a bit differently this morning as a result of a lesson that he had with me yesterday. He made a good attempt at it, and to everyone in that congregation, he pulled it off. He touched the lives of everyone in that small congregation this morning. And something else: he was somewhat concerned about the mistakes that he did make. I asked him one question: Do you remember the first time that you played in church after you started taking lessons form me? He said "yes". I then asked him, Was your performance this morning better than the last time that you played? And his answer was a resounding, "YES". I told him this: "Matt, I don't expect you to play perfectly, because I don't know what that is, you don't know what that is, and I'll be the first one to tell you that I don't play perfectly. However, you're always trying to IMPROVE your relaying of a musical message, and that may happen by working on a certain aspect of your physical technique, or it may happen by you attempting something that you heard on a recording or in a live performance. You must adopt this attitude that you are ALWAYS A STUDENT, NO MATTER HOW EXPERIENCED YOU BECOME." Sam makes an awful lot of valid points, and sure that his observations are due to much time consuming thought about why the trombone isn't more accepted as a solo instrument. I believe that he's right on the money, because I don't care what genre of music you're playing, if you don't get that characteristic SOUND on the instrument, you're not going to be working much. And velocity is important too, but not at the expense of SOUNDING GOOD. I remember when Bill Watrous REALLY hit the scene--the 2 albums that he made with the Manhattan Wildlife Refuge STILL scare me to death, and they scare my students too, because they introduce them to the idea that a trombonist can actually play improvised solos at a very highly developed technical level and still swing very, very hard and also have some absolutely incredibly well conceived ideas that can be played spontaneously. A great pioneer for all of us, to be sure. As I have heard some other players recently, you can definitely hear Bill's influence on their playing- -all because he first believed that the trombone could be played as well technically as the saxophone, and he worked incredibly hard in order to achieve that end. James, while I was composing this message, I read your kind e-mail--you too David. Thanks. In any art form, it starts with the idea that this can be done at a much higher level. Look at Tiger Woods. He was already winning major golf tournaments when he decided that the game could be played at a higher level than he was doing it currently. So, He retained a coach, and he either kept notes (physical or mental) of shots that he didn't hit very well, and then he would practice those shots with the help of his coach, and has come back even stronger than he was before. After winning a tournament, you can bet that he's the first fellow out on the driving range trying to improve something about his game that he wasn't pleased with. He's never satisfied. That's why he's playing as well as he is right now. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "sabutin" To: Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 2:17 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Fwd: Re: [TBN-L] state of the trombone > Addendum:The long long long answer.( From a series of previous posts.) > > Originally posted by ecohouse: > I would be interested in finding out why the trombone is such a > neglected instrument in jazz. Especially when it is such an important > part of its history. > > There was barely any mention in the Ken Burns documentary. Also the > annual Monk Competition has been going on since the 80's and has > never had a trombone competition. But last year they had hand > percussion. > > It is just a little too blatant for myself. Do others agree. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ============================== > > You ask "why the trombone is such a neglected instrument in jazz". > > You really wanna know? > > OK, I'm going to tell you. > > It's because it's too hard to play. > > There are lots of subtexts to this answer, some of which I will try > to cover now, but here it is, basically. > > It's just too hard to play. > > And I DON'T necessarily mean too hard to play fast. It's not just the > slide that gives us most of our problems, really...in fact, that's > not even the biggest drawback. > > The BIGGEST problem is sound and register...and this goes for > orchestral playing as well, really. > > In order to play the horn loud enough to be heard in a normal > contemporary "jazz" context, there are basically only three > choices...easy, moderately easy and damned near impossible. > > The EASIEST way is to play REALLY loud and fairly high...but that > almost invariably produces a truly ugly sound and also limits the > mobility available on the horn. Thus, no one wants to hear what's > being played and the horn is "neglected" as a solo instrument. > > The moderately easy way is to play VERY softly (and also fairly high) > and use a mike. This is fairly simple to do, if you practice it, and > allows for great mobility and control on the horn. BUT...it produces > a weak and characterless sound, and generally nobody (except perhaps > other trombonists) even notices that the horn is BEING played, let > alone wants to hear it. Once again, neglect sets in. > > The third way is to play w/such balance, strength, musicality and > economy of means that you transcend these drawbacks, and I say it's > damned near impossible because only a handful of players have managed > to do so...J.J., Teagarden, Dorsey...a few others, but really a very > short list when you consider trombonists who were seriously listened > to by large numbers of non-trombonists. > > This problem has a great deal to do w/the general volume of the > ensembles and idioms in which the soloists are playing, and goes > through all idioms and all the lower brass as well...french horn, > euphonium, tuba, all have to cope w/this to a greater or lesser > degree. > > In the late 1800s and early part of the 20th century, trombone WAS an > important part of the jazz and popular musics of America...band > soloists like Arthur Pryor abounded, and jazz trombonists were quite > prominent right on through the swing era. > > Bebop brought much greater technical challenges to the horn, and at > the volume that people like Tommy Dorsey, Bill Harris and Trummy > Young played...and make no mistake, these guys were putting out some > AIR...you just couldn't flow through 8th notes in the same way a > trumpet or sax could. > > Only J.J. really solved this problem (and then of course the others > who followed him), and he did it by sheer intensity and purity of > sound, plus a balance and ability to play w/in the limitations of the > horn (and actually USE those limitations to his own advantage) that > to my ears were ever only equaled or surpassed by Miles Davis. (No > surprise that J.J. considered Miles to be his favorite musician.) > > The others, great trombonists though they may have been, simply > didn't have a sound that demanded attention from non-trombonists and > non-musicians. > > Thus once again..."neglect". > > And this neglect intensified as leaders and arrangers realized that > if they couldn't get one of about 10 players, then there was simply > no use in having trombone solos or soloists in their groups. Write a > part for one of the few that could do it, and if that person couldn't > make the gig, you got a lame solo of some kind. > > "Better give it to the tenor player." How many times must that phrase > (or equivalents thereof) have reverberated through arrangers' skulls > in the last 50 years !!! > > The horn's just too hard to play. > > Difficult ??? Yes. > > Impossible ??? No, I don't think so. > > Think about it. > > What other instrument has the same kind of support group as the > trombone? Hundreds, thousands of players talking to one another...the > ITA, the OTJ, the trombone-l...all trying to figure out how to play > the damned thing. > > What other instrument has many, many soloists who really do NOTHING > except play instrumental technical exercises in the guise of > music...what I like to call "stupid trombone tricks"...and an > audience of players large enough to support them? > > We're all trying in our own ways to solve this puzzle, in both the > Western European and more American idioms, and progress is being > made...but it's slow. Very slow. > > Ken Burns didn't give an accurate view of the position and importance > of the trombone in jazz through the early '40s because that position > no longer exists today, and he (and Wynton) were seeing the past > through today colored > glasses. > > Wasn't a plot; Burn's and Marsalis weren't evilly trying to dis the > horn...and the Monk competition hasn't had a trombone category (I'm > taking your word on this...) but HAS had a hand percussion category > because HAND DRUMMING IS MORE IMPORTANT IN TODAY'S MUSIC THAN > TROMBONE SOLOING. End of story. > > Want to make a difference in this system of events? > > Resolve today never to play another stupid trombone trick while > improvising (Easy to say; hard to do...) and practice SOUND and > PROJECTION and well as range and velocity. > > Maybe...just maybe...in 20 years, if enough people do this (and I see > evidence of this being the case both in NYC over the PAST 20 years or > so and in the tremendous advances in design and manufacture of > trombones over the last 10 or so years) the so-called "neglect" of > the instrument will come to an end and its amazing potential in terms > of musical communication will eventually be more thoroughly realized. > > We should be so lucky... > > Later... > > Sam Burtis > > ======== > > [QUOTE]Originally posted by BruceP: > [B]Sam - Here's hoping a few of "us" take your words to heart! What > you say, here and in other posts, may not be what some of the younger > players want to hear, but the truth seldom is. > > ======================================= > > Hello... > > I received a private correspondence from someone about this thread, > and decided to post my answer to the forum (and the trombone mailing > lists), altered to protect the innocent. > > Here it is > > ========================= > > > > >Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 12:29:25 -0400 > > > > >From: sabutin@mindspring.com > > >Subject: RE: Real reasons for the musical "neglect" of the trombone > > > > > >At 08:41 AM 4/10/01 -0500, you wrote: > > >>Sam; > > >>I read your post here on trombone-l and on the OTJ re: "stupid > >trombone tricks". Do you cover this in your book? I just ordered it > >from Hickey's. > > ==================== > > ("The American Trombone"...this is a plug from Sam.) > > ======================== > > > >Who is a good example to listen to who avoids "stupid bone tricks"? > >Your friend and mine, (name suppressed), told me of an incident that > >happened to him last year which underscores your thought. > > >> > > >>"...Had a funny experience. Did a jazz gig with a sax player from out of > > >>town. GREAT player. I've been working on my fast chops a lot > > >>lately and ripped off a couple of burners. At break the sax player > > >>said..."Hey, You sound kinda like (name suppressed...fill in your > >own favorite fast, light jazz player) and those guys." I was > > >>flattered until he said, "Why do bone players want to sound like that? > > >>You know nobody except other bone players like listening to that crap!" > > >>But you know, he's right. So I've been focusing on letting my technique > > >>serve the music instead of letting the music serve my technique..." > > >> > > >>I guess you're talking about this thing, right? > > >> > >(name suppressed) > >> > >======================== > > I don't cover this idea specifically in the book, but it is > implicit to some degree in the physical approach I take to the horn. > > The book is primarily about how to produce sounds on the > instrument. Loud sounds, quiet sounds, high sounds, low sounds, fast, > slow...it could be used to help a fast, light style player just as > easily as it might be to help someone who wishes to be a symphonic > bass trombonist or an extremely aggressive latin player. > > However, I DO emphasize the communicative power of pure SOUND, and > the fact that sound is really the trombone's primary strength. It is > my opinion that no amplification or electronic reproduction can > capture the full sound of the trombone...or any other acoustic > instrument, for that matter...and that although it is almost > impossible to avoid electronics in the world as it's set up today, a > fine and full acoustic sound is the root of all good trombone playing. > > Most of the people who ascribe to the lighter school of jazz > playing are GREAT players who would be capable of a beautiful sound > if they filled the horn, but have decided not to do so in the pursuit > of a rapid, fluid style of playing. They sacrifice sound (and the > size of their sound, the complexity of the overtones sounding above a > given note) for speed. > > To my ears, this results in a kind of musical failure. If I > analyze my gut reaction, it appears to me that no matter HOW fast > they play, the intrinsic limitations of the horn stop them from > achieving the harmonic and melodic freedom available to almost any > good saxophonist, trumpet player, pianist or guitarist. > > They can play fast, but they can't play fast with the same freedom > as John Coltrane or Stan Getz or Clifford Brown or Bill Evans or > Charlie Parker or John Abercrombie...the list is endless... > > > Everybody uses licks and patterns to some degree, but the licks and > patterns available to even the finest trombonists are MUCH more > limited than those available to players of most other instruments. > > So where does that leave us? > > It leaves us w/ honesty. The emotional honesty of great singers, > of instrumental masters like Miles Davis and Pablo Casals who > rejected virtuosity in favor of...in favor of SOUND, I guess you > might say. > > Jack Teagarden, Tommy Dorsey, and above all J.J. Johnson (there are > of course many other examples...)...all realized this, and they all > successfully made the limitations of the instrument its STRENGTH. > > The great NYC bass trombonist and dedicated wiseguy Alan Raph > (whose book "Le Trombone" is the funniest book about ANY instrument I > have ever seen) once sidled past me as I was practicing some fast > scales backstage before a gig and stage whispered "Trying to be the > world's fastest trombone player is like trying to be the world's > tallest midget". > > I have never forgotten this sage bit of advice, even though I, > like almost every other contemporary jazz trombonist, work as hard as > I can to get the maximum amount of mobility possible on the horn. > > But never at the sacrifice of SOUND. > > That's what the book is really about. > > Sound. > > You want a REALLY good book about trombone playing? > > Pick up a book by an Indian musician named Hazrat Inayat Khan > called "The Mysticism of Sound and Music". (Barnes + Noble online has > it, and I imagine Amazon and the other online bookstores have it as > well.) > > Changed everything I ever thought about playing. > > Everything. > > Later... > > Sam Burtis > > ========================================= > > >>What happened to the state of the trombone discussion? It was recently > >>brought to my attention that we had a nice conversation going about why the > >>trombone isn't taken seriously and is completely disregarded by most > >>non-trombonists. Some, including myself, had even suggested that many > >>trombonists are preoccupied with technical concerns to the point that it > >>precludes them from really hearing the music when it's played on the > >>trombone. That preoccupation with technical concerns could even result in > >>many trombonists who aspire to play "music" suppressing their musical > >>tendencies in order to achieve technical mastery. In achieving technical > >>mastery, these players are compelled to display it at the expense of music > >>and therefore only appeal to other trombonists. Since trombonists don't call > >>them for gigs and no other instrumentalists appreciate what they do, they > >>don't have any gigs and the trombone isn't a visible instrument on the scene. > >> RIP trombone. > >> > >>It's an interesting discussion, and it's ironic that it was supplanted by > >>discussions between myself and others about horns and mouthpieces and > >>Christmas ornaments. I'm just doing a little self assessment here. Any > >>thoughts? > >> > >>Peace, > >> > >>David Gibson > >>dslide13@aol.com > > > >=================== > > > > Short answer? > > > > Most trombonists...jazz. orchestral,whatever...are so obsessed > >w/the technical difficulties of the horn that they get lost in it, > >forget to communicate. > > > > Unnecessary look-at-me-ma trills and turns, fastest scales ever, > >high notes low notes loud notes soft notes doodle double triple > >single menage a trois...no music. > > > > Look...who are the trombonists that non-musiciansd and musicians > >who play other instruments have EVER really listened to? > > > > I can only really name 3. > > > > Teagarden, Dorsey, and J.J., with maybe 1/2 a point for Trummy > >Young in his prime, Bill Harris w/Woody and Urbie Green everywhere in > >the '50s + '60s, > > > > Why? Because they did NOT showboat. They COULD, just didn't. > > > > They projected, had great sounds, and put the music first. > > > > Is there a single CD by any number of "great trombonists" who > >specialize in stupid trombone tricks in any idiom that is owned by a > >non-trombonist? > > > > I don' think so. senor... > > > > S. > > > > P.S. Joe Shepley about a very busy player in New York who didn't > >seem to be particularly great technically (not bad, not good, just > >there...) when asked why the guy worked so much. > > > > "Because he knows when TO and when NOT to." > > > > Amen. > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 17:10:17 -0500 From: Richard Zemry Johnson Subject: Re: state of the trombone In terms of playing melodies, I think that the trombone sounds better playing melodic based improvisation than scalular based improv. I think that melody based improv has probably been out of vogue for decades now....maybe since the advent of be-bop and the subsequent emphasis on scales. Take a simple melody and see how many ways you can turn it in and out in improvisation. You will be surprised at how much you can do with so little. Best of all, it gives the audience a frame of reference, a place to hang its hat, so to speak. Think of it as a speech, tell em what you are going to tell em, tell it to em and tell em what you told em. The human mind digests stuff in small repeitative bites. This may seem somewhat far astream from our original conversation, but I am trying to make a point. The audience will accept that with which it is familiar, for example, improv based upon a familiar melody as opposed to some scale played high and fast. A scale, in my humble opinion, is a means to an end anot not necessarily the end, in and of itself. -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of greg waits Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 4:25 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] state of the trombone After having read sp many of these posts regarding the current state (dilemma) of the trombone, I finally decided to add my opinion. There have been much input on the topic, and I agree with most everything that has been added here. The one thing that is most important to keep in mind (as far as I see it) is this: play melodies! Face it, most of the listening/buying public don't have the ability or the inclination to absorb all these burning choruses that players (on ALL instrumsnts) spew forth. I am not saying that we need to play for the listeners solely, because if we do, our love of music and the pursuance of what WE hear will be sacrificed in the meantime. Without a doubt, we as players need to strike a balance, and know our audience. I played a private party (for Ross Perot - you should see HIM dance lol), and the sax player was another in a long line of "angry young tenors". Every chorus he played was the cliched "sheets of sound" (no slur intended on Trane). He played all manner of altered scales, and frankly was taking it "out". After one of his long winded solos, he looked over at me sheepishly and said: "Maybe I am not playing appropriately for this gig". (duhh!) >From my own experience, most younger jazz players go through a period when they try to play everything they know, and usually it all gets played in the first chorus! Where do you go from there? How do you expect to build an effective solo when you have been double-timing right from measure one? I say this because I have been there. I used to try and incorporate all the burning "licks" that I copped off of solos I had transcribed earlier. Somewhere along the way, I think I matured as a player. While I think I can still play fast when it seems appropriate, I would rather look for the right notes and strive for good tone. Dexter Gordon comes to mind when I think on this! He could tell a solo, and he could play fast too, but not at the expense of musicallity and sound! I tell students all the time: Work on your sound, and technique will follow. I would much rather hear a player with a great sound playing slower, than a fast player with bad tone! No matter what a soloist is laying out in terms of speedball playing, if his/her tone is sad, I don't want to hear it. Great topic! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 18:19:10 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Fwd: [TBN-L] Sad Mingus Big Band Hmmm... I was the original music director of that band. I and most of the original players left because we didn't want to be involved w/Sue Mingus, Charles' widow, on any number of levels...business, artistic, personal... It has deteriorated sadly over the ensuing years, yet because Sue is a dedicated hustler it works and works and works and works. Believe what you heard, not what you've been TOLD to hear...you heard exactly right. Great players, but most of them are bugged.Most of them are there because it pays fairly well and at least they are getting a chance to stretch out some. Plus, the travel conditions are usually abominable...big bands have to work constantly on the road in order to make money. If the players aren't really into it, fatigue takes over. Too bad...coulda been something. Get the Koch album "Nostalgia In Times Square" also called "Mingus Big Band '93" or some such name to hear what it was originally. An amazing record, if I do say so myself. Only record I've ever really produced musically pretty much the way I wanted...the right players playing the right music after playing it live for months, recorded in the best possible conditions at Chelsea Sound. Too bad it didn't sustain... S. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 18:10:33 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: Fwd: [TBN-L] Sad Mingus Big Band I still missed the beginning of this thread. Did someone hear the band and it was...less than expected? Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of sabutin Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:19 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: [TBN-L] Fwd: [TBN-L] Sad Mingus Big Band Hmmm... I was the original music director of that band. I and most of the original players left because we didn't want to be involved w/Sue Mingus, Charles' widow, on any number of levels...business, artistic, personal... It has deteriorated sadly over the ensuing years, yet because Sue is a dedicated hustler it works and works and works and works. Believe what you heard, not what you've been TOLD to hear...you heard exactly right. Great players, but most of them are bugged.Most of them are there because it pays fairly well and at least they are getting a chance to stretch out some. Plus, the travel conditions are usually abominable...big bands have to work constantly on the road in order to make money. If the players aren't really into it, fatigue takes over. Too bad...coulda been something. Get the Koch album "Nostalgia In Times Square" also called "Mingus Big Band '93" or some such name to hear what it was originally. An amazing record, if I do say so myself. Only record I've ever really produced musically pretty much the way I wanted...the right players playing the right music after playing it live for months, recorded in the best possible conditions at Chelsea Sound. Too bad it didn't sustain... S. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 20:57:21 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" Subject: Re: Front Lady lindberg rocks BJMCHAFFIE@AOL.COM wrote: > Abbie Conant with NY Phil doin' Pops. > > beldon wade ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 18:50:39 -0500 From: Jon Moeller Subject: Re: state of the trombone good point... Vendor at ITF: How come you dont play like most trombone players? Guy: Most trombone players dont make it to the top... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Zemry Johnson" To: Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 4:55 PM Subject: Re: [TBN-L] state of the trombone > Good point, James. One can learn to play in a musical fashion. I don't think > that there is one, set way to play musical. Sometimes, there is no "correct" > way to play something.....just your way. Musicality is interpreting a phrase > or song. One can interpret a phrase in more than one manner. It is playing > in a "singing" manner. Music is not always about correctness and > not-correctness, for lack of a better term. It is playing something that > people enjoy! Listen to J.J. Johnson interpret a song...it can be stacco, > legato, the attack or non-attack of a note. It is all subtle things that we > should think about but never do. Interpretation is creativity. Making music > is about creativity. Think otside of the box. Think about how you can make > music....not whether someone can teach you how to make music. Hmmmmmm, it > may be far-fetched, but kinda like learning how to bar-b-que. Someone may > teach you how they do it, but pretty soon, you will be doing it your own > way. Not wrong, just different! Individuality and personality make music. > It comes from within you. In school, you learn the basic rules of grammar, > but eventually you learn to write your own way. The same way with music, > learn the basics, then find your own way. By doing so, you contribute to the > vastness of human knowledge. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of James W. Yardley > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:44 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: Re: [TBN-L] state of the trombone > > > For a college trombone student, without a gig for the summer, who is > struggling to find the motivation to practice, this thread has done it for > me. I'm really thankful for Paul Kemp who got this topic started. He's > been a huge help for me though this list and private e-mails. For me, > however, this discussion isn't going the direction I hoped it would. It > started to, in Paul's first message when he said; > > "When you're at home, and you're preparing something, try to have a > definite idea in your mind of what you the phrase to sound like. You may > have to break this down into several parts, such as which group of notes you > intend to phrase together, the type of articulation you want to use, what > choice of positions you intend to use (a pencil is very valuable for this), > where you are going to breathe, the volume at which you are going to play > at, and the speed you're going to play it." > > The message I'm hearing from everyone is "play more musically" rather than > "here's what you need to do to play more musically." While I'm at it, I'll > open another can of worms....I don't think musicality is something you're > born with and can't attain through hard work and practice. HOW do you play > more musically? HOW do you decide what articulation is appropriate? One > thing my teacher has me do with rochuts is write in all of my breath > markings and all of my crescendos and descrescendos. It forces me to "plan" > out MY musical ideas. Most visual artists do this I would imagine? Don't > they FIRST sketch, THEN paint/sculpt/whatever? I would like to hear more > about the PROCESS of playing more musically. I would guess it has a lot to > do with listening to the masters (not just trombone players) in music. > Obviously we have our own opinions on who the masters are, but I think > that's where we can "make the music our own," as some have been saying. If > we all listen to the people we believe are the best, and incoporate that > into our own playing, we'll all sound different....in thoery. Ok, I'm > getting away from my purpose of the message. I want to hear what the > professionals are doing to play musically, because I know they aren't just > sitting down and saying "ok, i'm going to think about the music." There's > got to be more to it than that. > > Take care, > James Yardley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Trombones and related issues forum. > [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Dslide13@AOL.COM > Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 9:36 AM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: state of the trombone > > > What happened to the state of the trombone discussion? It was recently > brought to my attention that we had a nice conversation going about why the > trombone isn't taken seriously and is completely disregarded by most > non-trombonists. Some, including myself, had even suggested that many > trombonists are preoccupied with technical concerns to the point that it > precludes them from really hearing the music when it's played on the > trombone. That preoccupation with technical concerns could even result in > many trombonists who aspire to play "music" suppressing their musical > tendencies in order to achieve technical mastery. In achieving technical > mastery, these players are compelled to display it at the expense of music > and therefore only appeal to other trombonists. Since trombonists don't > call > them for gigs and no other instrumentalists appreciate what they do, they > don't have any gigs and the trombone isn't a visible instrument on the > scene. > RIP trombone. > > It's an interesting discussion, and it's ironic that it was supplanted by > discussions between myself and others about horns and mouthpieces and > Christmas ornaments. I'm just doing a little self assessment here. Any > thoughts? > > Peace, > > David Gibson > dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 17:46:55 -0700 From: "Joe L. Norcross" Subject: Re: state of the trombone It is not just trombonist who do this. We have an entire generation of college band directors that never had to please an audience to make money. Their whole career is base on my band can play the Hideous Symphony with it's 500,00o notes in 32 measures, It sounds like crap, it is crap but we can play it. JJ, Dorsey, Kid Ory, Teagarden played music, not just stupid tricks. If I want that I will go to a college band. Boy do I really miss Leonard Smith today Joe L. Norcross Tuba: Visalia CA Sequoia Winds Bass Trombone: Clovis CA Community Band Tuba and Announcer: Kingsburg CA City Band joetuba@lightspeed.net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 20:16:02 EDT From: Dslide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: state of the trombone Yes....tell a story. David Gibson dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 20:22:22 EDT From: Dslide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: state of the trombone In a message dated 8/4/02 4:59:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yardlejw@uwec.edu writes: > HOW do you play > more musically? You play more music. You listen to more music. Music will reveal itself to you if you're listening. I use the music as a language metaphor often, but it almost always applies. If you learn the vocabulary, you don't necessarily have anything to say. We develop the ability to tell stories by living life. Musical life would require us to listen and play and listen and play.....and the big trick, which is LISTEN WHILE YOU PLAY. That's what I'm working on. Sometimes I succeed. David Gibson dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 20:24:23 -0400 From: Michael B Kieda Subject: 2B or not 2B I will soon be deciding between a new 2B Silversonic and a new 3B Silversonic for my next jazz axe. I will only have one day to audition these instruments and having never owned a King horn I would appreciate any input from King players about how these horns compare to each other. thanks, Mike -- _______________________________________ Michael B. Kieda Product Dev. Engineer, DaimlerChrysler Trombonist: Royal Oak Comm. Orchestra Schoolcraft Jazz Ensemble ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 23:09:43 -0500 From: Richard Zemry Johnson Subject: Re: 2B or not 2B Nice thread title!!! -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael B Kieda Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 7:24 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: [TBN-L] 2B or not 2B I will soon be deciding between a new 2B Silversonic and a new 3B Silversonic for my next jazz axe. I will only have one day to audition these instruments and having never owned a King horn I would appreciate any input from King players about how these horns compare to each other. thanks, Mike -- _______________________________________ Michael B. Kieda Product Dev. Engineer, DaimlerChrysler Trombonist: Royal Oak Comm. Orchestra Schoolcraft Jazz Ensemble ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 00:29:20 EDT From: MikeSuter@AOL.COM Subject: Re: state of the trombone Hi Guys, And yet again we transmute what could be an important discussion into something other than intended in order to get back on safe ground. My post was one of the posts that brought this thread to light. When it drifted off to mouthpieces, horns, and other 'safe' subjects, I got off the train before it achieved 'Binak.' Thanks Dave, for going after it again. But in rereading my original post, I don't find the word 'mastery' anywhere in it. My complaint - driven by Paul Kemp's excellent post - was that trombonists settle for mediocrity . . . the Hell with mastery. I wrote: " . . . I maintain there's a problem when trombone players give up their musicality, opting instead for senseless mediocrity." I also complained that " . . . trombone players don't play the trombone as well as trumpet players play the trumpet . . . trombone players don't play the trombone as well as saxophone players (gasp) play the saxophone . . . trombone players (are) directly accountable for the disastrous state we're in." As for me, I can live with mistakes. I can live with less than mastery from every trombone player on earth. I love to talk with players who play just because it's fun; no goals other than to have a great time and maybe, just maybe, someday play that elusive 'perfect' note. But I refuse to accept the argument proffered by far too many somewhat talented players that the trombone is a lesser instrument; not worthy of our best effort because it ultimately doesn't matter. I'm sick of the complaints on the list and elsewhere that nobody listens to (or hires) trombones because saxophones (or trumpets, or clarinets, or pan flute fer christ sakes) get all the jobs. Other horns get all the jobs because they don't embarrass themselves in public with continual substandard performances the way trombonists do. I'm 57 years old. I had a stroke 6 years ago that almost killed me. Somebody should have knocked me out of the business in the meantime. But, no. Instead I'm doing a solo tour of Europe next Spring. Why? Because I bothered to learn how to play music on the bass trombone instead of focusing on its problems. Yup, the world's unfair to trombone players. So what? Fight back. Or, as Paul Kemp says: Don't play safe. Mediocrity is a step, not a goal. All The Best, Mike Suter The National Slide Quartet Slidewerke PrimeSlide Design ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 3 Aug 2002 to 4 Aug 2002 (#2002-22) **************************************************************