Subject: TROMBONE-L Digest - 30 Jul 2002 to 31 Jul 2002 (#2002-17) There are 43 messages totalling 1869 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. what was your first horn? (7) 2. Less Muzak. More Music (4) 3. Salsa...Latin Camaraderie (5) 4. NTR - Hickey's Job Openings 5. what was your first instrument? 6. how do I find out how old my horn is? (2) 7. first horn 8. Edwards Bass Trombone for Sale 9. First Horn (9) 10. questions mounting for bach trombone history model S no 127 11. Mouthpiece alterations (5) 12. Webcast sat. 8/3 13. First Horn and Intro 14. FIRST HORN 15. Price histories, was Re: First Horn 16. First Horn, Ye Olde Conne (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:28:26 -0700 From: sloane@BATNET.COM Subject: Re: what was your first horn? At the end of third grade (circa 1955), after seeing a sixth grader play the trombone -- it went in and out like, like, like ANYthing -- I pleaded with the music teacher and went home with a beat-up Marine Corps band trombone that had seen service in two world wars, and I persisted in playing it until my parents, who met an actual professional trombonist from the NBC Symphony of the Air while working on Adlai Stevenson's presidential campaign, had him come by to give me some lessons. The first thing he did was locate a new Pan American for me, with one of those pyramidal mouthpieces. (Thanks, Erwin.) My next teacher played in the same orchestra but lived closer. In 1959, we went down to Manny's and he helped me pick out a new 2B from half a dozen we tried. It came with a King 28 mouthpiece but he switched me to a Bach 6 1/2AL. After many horn changes, that's still my favorite setup, although I'm very fond of a couple of other horns (Silvertone, 3B Silversonic, 32H Burkle). The 2B, BTW, cost $150. I went back a couple of years later and prices had risen: it cost another $150 to trade the articulated case for the black and silver alligator coffin and a 2B valve section. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 15:03:38 EDT From: Dslide13@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Less Muzak. More Music I think trombonists are a lot more to blame for the state of the instrument than most are willing to acknowledge. The concept of making music that's been discussed is one of the most valuable that we as "musicians" can possess. Yet, I find trombonists to be some of the biggest snobs when listening to other trombonists. No one who listens to jazz would argue the validity of John Coltrane's music, yet Trane obviously played sharp on many occasions. The music was more powerful than the lapses in intonation. Miles Davis didn't overwhelm audiences with his blistering technique. Instead, he chose with precision the perfect place for notes and flurries, like a poet chooses the perfect word or phrase. But when we listen to trombonists doing the same, we can't get past their intonation, or we want them to show how fast or high or loud that they can play. Some actually applaud a high note in the middle of a solo regardless of the context. When I was growing musically, I had trouble with certain recordings of Curtis, or Grachan, or Julian. But that was MY problem. Do you think the Benny Golson, Freddie Hubbard or Herbie Hancock had these guys around because they were just nice? Of course not. BG, FH and HH are arguably some of the greatest musicians in the world, and they were able to hear the music. Why is it that we can't? The answer, in my opinion, is that we're not listening for the music. Instead, we're auditioning them like the panels at orchestral auditions. We're auditioning their technique instead of their musicianship. We wonder why trombone is becoming a dinosaur? We don't even support our own, so how can we expect bandleaders to get excited about adding a trombone to the ensemble. Though things have since changed, I remember a trombonist telling me he had approached Gerry Teekens of Criss Cross about recording an album. Gerry's response was that he wasn't going to record any more trombonists. His first effort at recording trombone was Slide Hampton's "Roots" in 1985, featuring Cedar Walton's trio and Clifford Jordan. He said that sales were very poor, and if he couldn't make money recording Slide Hampton, then there was no money to be made with the trombone. There aren't enough trombonists to buy enough copies of Slide Hampton's record so that Teekens would consider recording him or any other trombonist again? What are we doing anyway? Fortunately, Gerry does now record Steve Davis and Wycliffe Gordon. I guess there's a silver lining. But, I believe the problem still exists. Peace, DG David Gibson 810 W. 183rd St. Apt. 5G New York, NY 10033 917.521.7130 hm phone dslide13@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:35:03 -0300 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Less Muzak. More Music At 03:03 PM 07/30/2002 -0400, Dslide13@AOL.COM wrote: >The answer, in my opinion, is that we're not listening for the music. >Instead, we're auditioning them like the panels at orchestral auditions. Hear, hear. I would take it one step further and say that what impresses the community of trombonists is generally not very impressive to the public. We are impressed by what we know to be difficult. The public is impressed by what their ears tell them is good. This "peer encouragement" so to speak, may have sent a few players off into directions that only a trombonist can love. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 21:03:48 +0100 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: Less Muzak. More Music From: "Craig Parmerlee" > We are impressed by what we know to be difficult. The public is > impressed by what their ears tell them is good. Or by a tromonist dressed as a clown playing the piccolo part from Stars and Stripes Forever whilst hanging upside down from a trapeze and landing in the net just before the trombone explodes 6 feet above his head? Now that's impressive. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:07:09 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee Subject: Re: Less Muzak. More Music Yes. That too. At 09:03 PM 7/30/2002 +0100, Adrian Drover wrote: >From: "Craig Parmerlee" > > > We are impressed by what we know to be difficult. The public is > > impressed by what their ears tell them is good. > > >Or by a tromonist dressed as a clown playing the piccolo part from Stars and >Stripes Forever whilst hanging upside down from a trapeze and landing in the >net just before the trombone explodes 6 feet above his head? Now that's >impressive. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:18:36 -0700 From: Galen Zinn Subject: Salsa...Latin Camaraderie Saturday night I had the good fortune of standing at the back stage door at the Chronicle Pavilion (I work backstage security there) listening to John Santos, Puente, Machito & Rodriguez Ensemble, Eddie Palmieri, and Arturo Sandoval. Here are some observations. Firstly, I was struck by the degree of admiration and respect that all of the Latin artists had for each other. They stood around backstage shaking each other's hands, hugging, kissing, slapping each other on the back, telling jokes, continually pausing to get into various combinations with each other to pose for snapshots, conversing about the biz., etc., etc. In other words, making a special point of taking the time to enjoy and celebrate each other. All of them shared their personal gifts and support for each other. What a great way to live! Have you found this to be true of the Hispanic culture? Secondly, I was blown away by the technical facility and musicianship of THE MAN, Arturo Sandoval. He began his portion of the evening exhibiting more range and expression than Maynard Ferguson. Then he demonstrated amazing powers with his voice (more than Bobby McFerrin). Then he proved that he can play as much or more piano/keyboard than most anyone else on tour. It was an athletic event; his shirt was wringing wet when he walked off stage at the end of his set. My God what a monster of a musician! And, all the while, a gentleman! Galen Zinn grzinn@ca.astound.net Trombone Products: http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=stonestbones ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:39:09 -0400 From: Chuck De Paolo Subject: NTR - Hickey's Job Openings Greetings from Ithaca, Just a note to let you guys and gals know that we have three positions open here at Hickey's that we need to fill this month. The positions open are Road Rep, Mailorder Customer Service Rep, and Shipping Clerk. If interested, please visit the following link for more details and instructions on applying. http://www.hickeys.com/pages/jobs.htm Mandatory Trombone Content: My first horn was a 1960's vintage King 3BF with an optional valve trombone section. The horn was pretty well beat by then but the slide was still wonderful. In Music, ---Charles De Paolo General Manager & Webmaster Hickey's Music Center 104 Adams Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607.272.8262 (Phone) 607.272.2203 (Fax) chuck@hickeys.com (E-Mail) http://www.hickeys.com (Website) http://www.weather.com/weather/local/14850 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:57:48 -0400 From: bonearzt@MINDSPRING.COM Subject: Re: Salsa...Latin Camaraderie Not only is the camaraderie so wonderful, most of these aren't racing each other for the tour bus before the echo dies! They really want to play! My .01! Eric On Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:18:36 -0700 Galen Zinn wrote: Saturday night I had the good fortune of standing at the back stage door at the Chronicle Pavilion (I work backstage security there) listening to John Santos, Puente, Machito & Rodriguez Ensemble, Eddie Palmieri, and Arturo Sandoval. Here are some observations. Firstly, I was struck by the degree of admiration and respect that all of the Latin artists had for each other. They stood around backstage shaking each other's hands, hugging, kissing, slapping each other on the back, telling jokes, continually pausing to get into various combinations with each other to pose for snapshots, conversing about the biz., etc., etc. In other words, making a special point of taking the time to enjoy and celebrate each other. All of them shared their personal gifts and support for each other. What a great way to live! Have you found this to be true of the Hispanic culture? Secondly, I was blown away by the technical facility and musicianship of THE MAN, Arturo Sandoval. He began his portion of the evening exhibiting more range and expression than Maynard Ferguson. Then he demonstrated amazing powers with his voice (more than Bobby McFerrin). Then he proved that he can play as much or more piano/keyboard than most anyone else on tour. It was an athletic event; his shirt was wringing wet when he walked off stage at the end of his set. My God what a monster of a musician! And, all the while, a gentleman! Galen Zinn grzinn@ca.astound.net Trombone Products: http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=stonestbones Thanks Eric Edwards bonearzt@mindspring.com "Just shut up and play!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:09:04 +0100 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: what was your first horn? Not as lucky as some of you folks. I started on an ancient Salvation Army small-bore. A genuine peashooter. The mouthpiece, manufacturer of which I can't remember, was a tiny conical shaped thing. There was more interest in the decorative engraving to the flanges and slide grips than in the sound it made. Any attempt at a broad tone quite impossible. Makes me wonder how I ever stayed interested! Keith in Bb/F/D > -----Original Message----- > From: greg waits [mailto:alteredcircuit@HOTMAIL.COM] > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 4:13 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU > Subject: what was your first horn? > > > What I think could be the start of an interesting discussion would be what > trombone was your starter horn. > > I will go first. > > I started out in '68 on a Conn 6H that I got second hand from an senior in > High School who had just been tossed from the stage band for drinking beer > on a band trip. > > I wish I still had that horn. I traded it in on a new 42B when I made > Symphonic band in '72; little did I know that I would eventually spend 90% > of my time on a small bore! > > > GW > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:39:39 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Salsa...Latin Camaraderie >Saturday night I had the good fortune of standing at the back stage door at >the Chronicle Pavilion (I work backstage security there) listening to John >Santos, Puente, Machito & Rodriguez Ensemble, Eddie Palmieri, and Arturo >Sandoval. > >Here are some observations. > >Firstly, I was struck by the degree of admiration and respect that all of >the Latin artists had for each other. They stood around backstage shaking >each other's hands, hugging, kissing, slapping each other on the back, >telling jokes, continually pausing to get into various combinations with >each other to pose for snapshots, conversing about the biz., etc., etc. In >other words, making a special point of taking the time to enjoy and >celebrate each other. All of them shared their personal gifts and support >for each other. What a great way to live! > >Have you found this to be true of the Hispanic culture? > >Secondly, I was blown away by the technical facility and musicianship of THE >MAN, Arturo Sandoval. He began his portion of the evening exhibiting more >range and expression than Maynard Ferguson. Then he demonstrated amazing >powers with his voice (more than Bobby McFerrin). Then he proved that he can >play as much or more piano/keyboard than most anyone else on tour. It was an >athletic event; his shirt was wringing wet when he walked off stage at the >end of his set. My God what a monster of a musician! And, all the while, a >gentleman! > >Galen Zinn >grzinn@ca.astound.net > >Trombone Products: >http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=stonestbones ======================================= This is what has kept me in the latin music scene for 30 years. I have been playing w/the Puente, Rodriquz, Machito band whenever I have been available since it began about a year ago. (Current real name...The Big Three Palladium Orchestra) For financial reasons, they were going to hire 3 CA trombonists to save flight and room + board money, but two weeks ago Mario Grillo, Machito's son, called me, said they had come up w/some more money, thought having a lead player there who knew the book might be a good idea (DUH!!!), and asked if I could make the trip. I had to refuse because I was working w/the Smithsonian Band in Washington DC during the same general time, but I hated to say no. The music is so real; many of the players have shared so many dues over the past 50 years or so, and the love and mutual respect (although all is not perfect, of course) among the players is so strong...wonderful scene. Plus...the trombone actually serves a function!!! Great music. As far as these attitudes being an integral part of the general Carinbbean/Mexican/Central + South American culture...yes. Lots of laughter, lots of friendship, lots of demonstration of that friendship. Like I said, it's not a perfect world...I could tell you stories...but it is a very warm one. Hot, even... The musicianship goes w/out saying, if you have the ears to hear it. Rhythmically, harmonically, melodically,in terms of sheer virtuosity and power, only the great jazz traditions come close to it in America. Glad you saw and heard it. Only the root language keeps it from the attention of many mainstream English speaking musicians. (Dizzy knew, though...) Later... S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:28:49 -0500 From: conn60h Subject: Re: what was your first instrument? My first trombone was a used Pan American. I bought from a friend of mine in '65 for the paltry price of $2. (I told my folks it was $5, so I even made three bucks on the deal.) It came with a Rudy Muck mouthpiece. The first time my director saw the Rudy Muck, he took the mouthpiece from the horn. And without saying a word, walked up to an open window in the bandroom, and gave it the old heave ho. He preceded to then give me a 12C. Needless to say, he was a trombone player. I used that horn for a practicing at home throughout junior high. I had a Conn Director to use at school. In High School I switched to tuba. I thought my mother was going to put her head in the oven. "My son the tuba player". After HS switched to bass trombone. I still have my first bass bone, a Conn 60H, with a Schilke 59. Of all the horns I own or have owned, it's still my favorite. Kenny Jay ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:35:15 -0500 From: Dilshad Kasmani Subject: Re: what was your first horn? I started on a King 606 rental with the teacher-mandated 6.5AL in 6th grade (1988). My folks purchased a well used 1979 Reynolds Medalist (.490-.500" w/ f-attachement) when I went into 7th - what a lazer of a horn!!! 3 dozen horns later, Dilshad Kasmani ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:52:47 -0700 From: Philip Dean Subject: how do I find out how old my horn is? I have a conn jazz horn and it has a nickle bell. I bought it used and was wondering how old it was because I want to sell it. it is in very good condition but there is some rust on the slide that has been there since I got the horn. the slide still slides beautifully. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 21:25:20 -0400 From: Thomas Sousa Subject: Re: what was your first horn? Hello all: Well, my first horn was a piston-rotary valved OLDS DURATONE baritone bugle with the "satin" finish that looked more like it had been soaked in a vat of Guiness for a month. About a year later, I started trombone and got an old CONN 50H at my junior high. The first trombone of my very own was a used KING TEMPO that is still in very nice shape, but I no longer own it. I got it for X-mas 1976. Still longing for my OLDS DURATONE... Peace, Tom Sousa Rochester, New York -- Artist Representative Greenhoe Musical Instrument Components -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Dilshad Kasmani Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 7:35 PM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: what was your first horn? I started on a King 606 rental with the teacher-mandated 6.5AL in 6th grade (1988). My folks purchased a well used 1979 Reynolds Medalist (.490-.500" w/ f-attachement) when I went into 7th - what a lazer of a horn!!! 3 dozen horns later, Dilshad Kasmani ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:50:03 -0700 From: emrose79@PACBELL.NET Subject: Re: what was your first horn? obviously you stayed interested because of the Duo Gravis! Keith Marr wrote: > Makes me wonder how I ever stayed interested! > > Keith in Bb/F/D > > > -----Original Message----- > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:38:27 -0500 From: mxntrpic@SWBELL.NET Subject: Re: first horn I rented one, some student model, for a couple years. Then we tracked down the Olds Recording my dad played when he was in high school and bought it for $70. I had it refurbished and still play it today (though it needs another refurbishing). I resisted the temptation through high school to go to large-bore, F-attached equipment and never was sorry (my parents felt a little guilty in retrospect about not buying me another instrument :). I just really liked that horn. Still do. Haven't played many others, though. Galen, you'll have to let me know how the work on yours comes out. Corey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:05:07 -0400 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." Subject: Edwards Bass Trombone for Sale I have a student who has an Edwards bass trombone for sale. It has a 9.5" 1239CF bell, yellow brass, 22 gauge, rose brass tuning slide, Thayers, (Bb, F, Gb) 3 standard leadpipes, standard (not dual bore) orchestral slide, hard shell case. It is about 4 years old, and is in very good condition. $3400, shipping included if shipped within continental US. If interested, you can email Eric Miller at EWMZ71@aol.com or call him at 706-861-0823. He'll also post this add to the OTJ Classifieds, so if you're interested, you'd better jump on this one. It is a very good sounding and playing horn. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:04:40 -0500 From: Billy Cordova Subject: Re: First Horn My first horn was a Conn 18H. Billy Cordova I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire St. Cecilia, pray for us ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:14:38 -0700 From: Galen McQuarrie Subject: Re: Salsa...Latin Camaraderie Bueno, Sam. Me gusta mucho La Musica Latina tambien. ˇTienes los cojones buen puesto! (And thank you for your comments ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "sabutin" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 3:39 PM Subject: Re: Salsa...Latin Camaraderie | >Saturday night I had the good fortune of standing at the back stage door at | >the Chronicle Pavilion (I work backstage security there) listening to John | >Santos, Puente, Machito & Rodriguez Ensemble, Eddie Palmieri, and Arturo | >Sandoval. | > | >Here are some observations. | > | >Firstly, I was struck by the degree of admiration and respect that all of | >the Latin artists had for each other. They stood around backstage shaking | >each other's hands, hugging, kissing, slapping each other on the back, | >telling jokes, continually pausing to get into various combinations with | >each other to pose for snapshots, conversing about the biz., etc., etc. In | >other words, making a special point of taking the time to enjoy and | >celebrate each other. All of them shared their personal gifts and support | >for each other. What a great way to live! | > | >Have you found this to be true of the Hispanic culture? | > | >Secondly, I was blown away by the technical facility and musicianship of THE | >MAN, Arturo Sandoval. He began his portion of the evening exhibiting more | >range and expression than Maynard Ferguson. Then he demonstrated amazing | >powers with his voice (more than Bobby McFerrin). Then he proved that he can | >play as much or more piano/keyboard than most anyone else on tour. It was an | >athletic event; his shirt was wringing wet when he walked off stage at the | >end of his set. My God what a monster of a musician! And, all the while, a | >gentleman! | > | >Galen Zinn | >grzinn@ca.astound.net | > | >Trombone Products: | >http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=stonestbones | | | ======================================= | | This is what has kept me in the latin music scene for 30 years. | | I have been playing w/the Puente, Rodriquz, Machito band whenever | I have been available since it began about a year ago. (Current real | name...The Big Three Palladium Orchestra) For financial reasons, they | were going to hire 3 CA trombonists to save flight and room + board | money, but two weeks ago Mario Grillo, Machito's son, called me, said | they had come up w/some more money, thought having a lead player | there who knew the book might be a good idea (DUH!!!), and asked if I | could make the trip. I had to refuse because I was working w/the | Smithsonian Band in Washington DC during the same general time, but I | hated to say no. | | The music is so real; many of the players have shared so many dues | over the past 50 years or so, and the love and mutual respect | (although all is not perfect, of course) among the players is so | strong...wonderful scene. | | Plus...the trombone actually serves a function!!! | | Great music. | | As far as these attitudes being an integral part of the general | Carinbbean/Mexican/Central + South American culture...yes. Lots of | laughter, lots of friendship, lots of demonstration of that | friendship. Like I said, it's not a perfect world...I could tell you | stories...but it is a very warm one. | | Hot, even... | | The musicianship goes w/out saying, if you have the ears to hear it. | | Rhythmically, harmonically, melodically,in terms of sheer | virtuosity and power, only the great jazz traditions come close to it | in America. | | Glad you saw and heard it. | | Only the root language keeps it from the attention of many | mainstream English speaking musicians. | | (Dizzy knew, though...) | | Later... | | S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:51:24 EDT From: Edcox1@AOL.COM Subject: Re: First Horn My first horn was a Buescher 400 in 1943. Slide Hampton, who is also from Indianapolis, had one, but his was the left-handed model. I then moved to a Conn 6H and went through several of those until they stopped making them at Elkhart. I switched to a King 3B and played that for several years until Urbie Green recommended a 2B. I have had two and both have been excellent. I also have a Benge 190C that I use for certain work. Ed Cox - Freelance Indy & Bloomington ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:27:22 -0400 From: sabutin Subject: Re: Salsa...Latin Camaraderie >Bueno, Sam. Me gusta mucho La Musica Latina tambien. ˇTienes los cojones >buen puesto! >(And thank you for your comments ) ======= De nada. S. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "sabutin" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 3:39 PM >Subject: Re: Salsa...Latin Camaraderie > > >| >Saturday night I had the good fortune of standing at the back stage door >at >| >the Chronicle Pavilion (I work backstage security there) listening to >John >| >Santos, Puente, Machito & Rodriguez Ensemble, Eddie Palmieri, and Arturo >| >Sandoval. >| > >| >Here are some observations. >| > >| >Firstly, I was struck by the degree of admiration and respect that all of >| >the Latin artists had for each other. They stood around backstage shaking >| >each other's hands, hugging, kissing, slapping each other on the back, >| >telling jokes, continually pausing to get into various combinations with >| >each other to pose for snapshots, conversing about the biz., etc., etc. >In >| >other words, making a special point of taking the time to enjoy and >| >celebrate each other. All of them shared their personal gifts and support >| >for each other. What a great way to live! >| > >| >Have you found this to be true of the Hispanic culture? >| > >| >Secondly, I was blown away by the technical facility and musicianship of >THE >| >MAN, Arturo Sandoval. He began his portion of the evening exhibiting more >| >range and expression than Maynard Ferguson. Then he demonstrated amazing >| >powers with his voice (more than Bobby McFerrin). Then he proved that he >can >| >play as much or more piano/keyboard than most anyone else on tour. It was >an >| >athletic event; his shirt was wringing wet when he walked off stage at >the >| >end of his set. My God what a monster of a musician! And, all the while, >a >| >gentleman! >| > >| >Galen Zinn >| >grzinn@ca.astound.net >| > >| >Trombone Products: >| >http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=stonestbones >| >| >| ======================================= >| >| This is what has kept me in the latin music scene for 30 years. >| >| I have been playing w/the Puente, Rodriquz, Machito band whenever >| I have been available since it began about a year ago. (Current real >| name...The Big Three Palladium Orchestra) For financial reasons, they >| were going to hire 3 CA trombonists to save flight and room + board >| money, but two weeks ago Mario Grillo, Machito's son, called me, said >| they had come up w/some more money, thought having a lead player >| there who knew the book might be a good idea (DUH!!!), and asked if I >| could make the trip. I had to refuse because I was working w/the >| Smithsonian Band in Washington DC during the same general time, but I >| hated to say no. >| >| The music is so real; many of the players have shared so many dues >| over the past 50 years or so, and the love and mutual respect >| (although all is not perfect, of course) among the players is so >| strong...wonderful scene. >| >| Plus...the trombone actually serves a function!!! >| >| Great music. >| >| As far as these attitudes being an integral part of the general >| Carinbbean/Mexican/Central + South American culture...yes. Lots of >| laughter, lots of friendship, lots of demonstration of that >| friendship. Like I said, it's not a perfect world...I could tell you >| stories...but it is a very warm one. >| >| Hot, even... >| >| The musicianship goes w/out saying, if you have the ears to hear it. >| >| Rhythmically, harmonically, melodically,in terms of sheer >| virtuosity and power, only the great jazz traditions come close to it >| in America. >| >| Glad you saw and heard it. >| >| Only the root language keeps it from the attention of many >| mainstream English speaking musicians. >| >| (Dizzy knew, though...) >| >| Later... >| >| S. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:37:17 -0500 From: greg waits Subject: Re: First Horn I knew that Slide was left handed, but I had no idea that there was ever such thing as a factory available left handed model. If it was a non trigger horn, the only diff I can imagine there would be would be the water key. Has anyone ever seen a non custom-ordered left handed trombone? (I'm not doubting you Ed, it just is new to me!) Greg W >From: Edcox1@AOL.COM >Reply-To: Edcox1@AOL.COM >To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU >Subject: Re: First Horn >Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:51:24 EDT >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from mc1-f17.law16.hotmail.com ([65.54.236.24]) by >mc1-s5.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Tue, 30 Jul >2002 21:14:21 -0700 >Received: from po.missouri.edu ([128.206.12.137]) by >mc1-f17.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Tue, 30 >Jul 2002 21:04:22 -0700 >Received: from po.missouri.edu (po.missouri.edu [128.206.12.137])by >po.missouri.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6V41lg19399;Tue, 30 Jul 2002 >23:01:47 -0500 >Received: from PO.MISSOURI.EDU by PO.MISSOURI.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release > 1.8e) with spool id 99627 for TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU; Tue, 30 >Jul 2002 23:01:45 -0500 >Received: from imo-r09.mx.aol.com (imo-r09.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.105]) by > po.missouri.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6V3pjg18877 for > ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:51:45 -0500 >Received: from Edcox1@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id > f.103.1919089b (3948); Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:51:24 -0400 (EDT) >X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 44 >Message-ID: <103.1919089b.2a78b8bc@aol.com> >Sender: "Trombones and related issues forum." >Comments: To: billy@TROMBONE.ORG >Precedence: list >Return-Path: owner-trombone-l@PO.MISSOURI.EDU >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jul 2002 04:04:23.0431 (UTC) >FILETIME=[5AA3C170:01C23847] > >My first horn was a Buescher 400 in 1943. Slide Hampton, who is also from >Indianapolis, had one, but his was the left-handed model. I then moved to a >Conn 6H and went through several of those until they stopped making them at >Elkhart. I switched to a > King 3B and played that for several years until Urbie Green recommended a >2B. I have had two and both have been excellent. I also have a Benge 190C >that I use for certain work. > >Ed Cox - Freelance Indy & Bloomington _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:19:30 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: questions mounting for bach trombone history model S no 127 Ok, so I saw Dick Erb tonight and asked him about the "S" horn that he sold to Sharman some years ago. It was a custom slide that he had made, and it was .547/.562 dual bore. I think he said it was a regular 50 bell. Sharman, email me. Dick wants to get in touch with you, and I deleted the mail with your address on it. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of D.J. Kennedy Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 8:47 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: questions mounting for bach trombone history model S no 127 well i can call selmer monday -but i doubt if any thing might be on shop card ------------i suppose the s might be symphony ????? custom horn for sure --might just have record dick erb--- somebody needs to do a book on the bach bones anybody any input ???? thanks for sharing your bach story ::::::::::::::::::: Sharman King wrote: > Hi again, D.J. > > As I've said before, I very much enjoy your comments and the knowledge > you share. The discussion on the ealry Bach instruments brings up > something I've questioned for decades. > > I'm really only a bass trombonist, although the Williams 9 that I'm > playing in a Tuesday night "kicks" band is taking me into the tenor > trombone world. However, I have a Bach trombone that for many, many > years was my work-a-day horn. In 1968 I was in our National Youth > Orchestra. The lower brass instructor was to be Arnold Jacobs, but he > got sick at the last moment and suggested that the NYO hire a student > of his. The student was Dick Erb, from New Orleans. He was an > inspiring teacher - the section that year included Emil Subirana on > first who is now the President of the Montreal musicians union and > John Langley on second. He became the bass trombonist in the Toronto > orchestra for twenty years and then left to become a physician. Dick > was an inspiring teacher who made a profound difference in our musical > lives and now, thirty-four years later is continuing to do the same > things for new generations of young trombonists. > > Anyway, during my first summer in NYO I was playing a Holton that I'd > bought from Ted Griffiths (ex-Stan Kenton) in the Montreal Orchestra. > (The MSO had a new conductor who was insisting that they play Latszch > trombones like in his old Amsterdam orchestra) and I was happy to lend > my Latszch to Ted if he would sell me something else to use. Dick > wasn't impressed with the "Kleinhammer" Holton, and suggested I would > be better off playing the source horn for the Holton. He had a single > and a double trigger Bach, and he sold me his single for three hundred > dollars. (I think he had a matrimonial-legal-financial impetus to > sell!) > > I've loved that horn - I probably played two or three hundred TV shows > on it, hundreds of jingles and orchestral performances. I still love > it, so much that I've left it to Dick in my will. > > Perhaps you might be able to shed some light on it. the bell is a Mt. > Vernon gold brass bell, and the slide says Model S (NOT 50) and its > serial number is 127. From all the serial number sites I guess that > the slide belongs in the '20s, but that seems to be implausible. I > spoke with John Pettinato once when I was in New York; he was quite > sure that it was a custom slide. Other people have told me that Peppy > was actually building Bach bits "on the side", so I wonder if it was > something he made or if the Model S was a specific designation of > Bach's. > > I've never measured the bore, and I should. The instruent rings in my > hands, and it projects like crazy at low volumes. I can play very > softly an octave below a tuba and be as audible in the audience as the > tuba. It's got a warm, buttery sound even if it is a mechanical pig to > play. > > So, at my advancing age, I play easier and better instruments. But I > love that old Bach, and, even more, I love the memories it brings > back! > > Sharman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 00:41:03 -0500 From: Tom Izzo Subject: Re: First Horn Greg, Has anyone ever seen a non custom-ordered left handed trombone? (I'm not doubting you Ed, it just is new to me!) ________________________________ Huh? ALL of my straight (non attachmented instruments) are reversible--completely. This includes Soprano, Alto, Tenors, even the G Bass. Not left-handed, "ambidextrous" :-) Tom Greg W >From: Edcox1@AOL.COM >Reply-To: Edcox1@AOL.COM >To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU >Subject: Re: First Horn >Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:51:24 EDT >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from mc1-f17.law16.hotmail.com ([65.54.236.24]) by >mc1-s5.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Tue, 30 Jul >2002 21:14:21 -0700 >Received: from po.missouri.edu ([128.206.12.137]) by >mc1-f17.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Tue, 30 >Jul 2002 21:04:22 -0700 >Received: from po.missouri.edu (po.missouri.edu [128.206.12.137])by >po.missouri.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6V41lg19399;Tue, 30 Jul 2002 >23:01:47 -0500 >Received: from PO.MISSOURI.EDU by PO.MISSOURI.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release > 1.8e) with spool id 99627 for TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU; Tue, 30 >Jul 2002 23:01:45 -0500 >Received: from imo-r09.mx.aol.com (imo-r09.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.105]) by > po.missouri.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6V3pjg18877 for > ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:51:45 -0500 >Received: from Edcox1@aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v32.21.) id > f.103.1919089b (3948); Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:51:24 -0400 (EDT) >X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 44 >Message-ID: <103.1919089b.2a78b8bc@aol.com> >Sender: "Trombones and related issues forum." >Comments: To: billy@TROMBONE.ORG >Precedence: list >Return-Path: owner-trombone-l@PO.MISSOURI.EDU >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Jul 2002 04:04:23.0431 (UTC) >FILETIME=[5AA3C170:01C23847] > >My first horn was a Buescher 400 in 1943. Slide Hampton, who is also from >Indianapolis, had one, but his was the left-handed model. I then moved to a >Conn 6H and went through several of those until they stopped making them at >Elkhart. I switched to a > King 3B and played that for several years until Urbie Green recommended a >2B. I have had two and both have been excellent. I also have a Benge 190C >that I use for certain work. > >Ed Cox - Freelance Indy & Bloomington _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:47:52 -0700 From: John & Rossana Cather Subject: Re: Mouthpiece alterations To work on a mpc properly, you need a lathe. Anything else and you are likely to make it lose it's concentricity. If you don't know that word, I'd say you should definitely go to a mpc maker for alterations. Mpc's need to be spun. Throats are cut with multi fluted reamers. Drill bits do not leave a clean enough hole. Back bores are cut with flat reamers. Cups can be modified with hand tools while the mpc is being spun. I have made many of my own mpc's, but I also used to work in a mpc factory. By the way, I make my own alto trombone mpc's. I have sold a few to frustrated souls who can't get the range and sound from their tenor mpc's on their alto tbn. It seems the factories ship tenor mpc's with their horns. Most guys use them and complain that they don't have any better range than on their tenor, and they don't get a good centered sound. You get the same thing when you use a tuba mpc on a tenor trombone. Go figure! Anyway, if you want to do it yourself, you need to do a lot of research into mpc design and acoustics. A class in machining is highly recommended. Otherwise you risk your hands and face from serious damage. After all that, make sure you have lots of mpc's to mess up, or raw brass stock to start from scratch. You don't start with your prized mpc or you'll surely be sorry when it's junk. That is a 100% probability. Then you need a buffer and plating vat. Or you can send them out for plating like I do. Some platers will also buff mpc's, but you can't complain when they over buff and change your mpc! Besides, you need to buff them to test them properly anyway. So plan on doing your own buffing. After you get one to play like you want, then you need to have it plated. A cheap (almost toy) lathe will cost $500-$1,000. Or if you go CNC (computerized), multiply by about 3. Several hundred more for tooling (minimum). And countless hours of study and practice so you know how to cut brass and to know how to change a mpc's playing characteristics. That's why mpc makers have to charge a pretty penny. It's a lot to bite off. Still want to do it? OK, to not have it backup? You are talking about modifying: shoulder, and/or throat, and/or backbore. It'll take time and knowledge to find out which to do and how much to do without ruining the mpc. You can take a hand drill and bit and cram it into the throat in hopes that it helps, but it is blind going. You may end up with a non concentric throat with gouges but it may still help. That's probably about all you can do without machines and knowledge. I hope I didn't ruin it for you. And I hope this helps. John Cather Original message: >Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 23:05:48 -0500 >From: Jeff Albert >Subject: Mouthpiece alterations > >For those of you that are brave enough to experiment with mouthpiece >alterations, what tools do you use? Specifically, I am looking to open >up some small mouthpieces. The idea is I want to try to maintain as >much of the brightness of sound as possible, but not have it back up as >much. Advice and shared experience is also sought. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 02:11:27 -0400 From: Patricia Adams Subject: Re: what was your first horn? My first horn: Maybe there should be a discussion on why you picked the trombone.. When I was little, my sister played the trumpet. One day she let me try it, and I immediately grabbed the tuning slide and tried to slide it back and forth. When they asked me what instrument I wanted to play for band, I remembered this incident, and assumed I was fated to play the instrument with the slide...... So there we have it. I started with a Yamaha student horn, I don't recall the model number, but I assume YSL-354, this was 1987ish. It came with a 12C equivalent mouthpiece. Since I skipped beginner band, and my parents never got told what kind of horn to buy, the other students were told to get Bundy trombones. The music store recommended this horn to my parents. I was very happy that my horn worked better and looked nicer than the trombones that the other students had. I painted the weight blue, and then scraped off the raised lettering so that the silver color shined through with a blue background. Shortly thereafter, my private teacher wanted me to learn to play something other than trombone because it was not a "lead instrument". Dad got me a trumpet (a nice copper belled one from a pawn shop, also the clarinet - but I finally moved back to trombone very quickly) 1989 - Benge with an F attachment, starting on 12C then 6 1/2AL It had a gold brass bell, I unsure of model number, I think it was the same as a king 609. I was confused by the lack of model number on the horn, but noticed it had the exact same dimensions as some king horns that other students had. 1991 - Bach 42BO with a 5G then schilke 51C4 in 1992 I traded in my benge for $750, and paid $1400 for this one. $135/month until it was paid off. 2002 - Bach 42TG with a schilke 51C4 same mouthpiece I also managed to get an H.N. White gladiator in there somewhere as well. I think I got that one in 1990, It's hanging on a wall now. I really wish i had my beginner horn from way back then. I sold it at a pawn shop for way less than what it was worth.. *sigh* Ahh, the days before ebay. Trish ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 02:17:59 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Webcast sat. 8/3 Warning: shameless self-promotion. The contemporary jazz quintet that I co-lead (the Albert-Ankrum Project) will be performing this Saturday 8/3 at the Satchmo Summer Fest (www.satchmosummerfest.com) in New Orleans. We play from 12:30 - 1:45 PM Central Daylight Time (US), and our performance is scheduled to be broadcast on WWOZ 90.7 FM in New Orleans, or webcast at www.wwoz.org for the rest of the world. If you happen to be in town, please come by, the concert is free, and buy a CD. If you are out of town, you are very smart, because it is quite hot here right now. Anyway, you can listen online, and order your CD online from www.albert-ankrumproject.com or www.amazon.com. Thanks. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 09:19:25 +0100 From: Adrian Drover Subject: Re: how do I find out how old my horn is? Carbon dating? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 04:34:54 -0400 From: Aaron Roth Subject: Re: Mouthpiece alterations For much, much more casual alterations (and mainly in the cup, not backbore), one can use beeswax. Obviously, the options are limited to making the cup shallower or smaller than what it was, but the change is not permanent. If Daniel Pliskin is still on the list, Dan, this is your cue! Dan has what looks to be a fully working method for this type of experimentation; I wish I had his email address. -Aaron R. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 08:30:02 -0400 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." Subject: Re: First Horn My first horn was actually a tuba. It was fun until I discovered what a sousaphone was and I had to carry one 6 miles in a parade. My brother had a trombone that he didn't play anymore, so I switched, and I never looked back. However, the quality of that horn made a Bundy look like a Mercedes Benz, and my first professional horn was a Bach 42B in 1977. Talking about regrets---that was one horn that I should have kept. I bought another Bach, a 42C with a gold brass bell in 1986, and that was another horn that I should have kept. Then I had a short stint (6 years) with Edwards, and switched back to Bach, a 1975 42B that I had converted to a Greenhoe valve, and I am again an extremely happy camper. Yeah, I've learned a lot of things along the way, but that's life, isn't it. Paul Kemp Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 13:52:57 +0100 From: Keith Marr Subject: Re: what was your first horn? I guess that's just about right! After the peashooter, I got a Besson International medium-bore. I then made the move to Bass Trombone with a Besson International Bb/F Bass which wasn't marvellous but gave me more interest, particularly in band. 3-4 years later got the King Duo - and never looked back! Anyone never seen a Duo Gravis? There's a pic of me with mine now on http://gofree.indigo.ie/~brasswrk/bonegallery/gallery3.html What a beauty - the trombone's not bad either! Keith in Bb/F/D ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 2:50 AM Subject: Re: what was your first horn? > obviously you stayed interested because of the Duo Gravis! > > > > Keith Marr wrote: > > > Makes me wonder how I ever stayed interested! > > > > Keith in Bb/F/D > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 08:37:00 -0600 From: "Ernst, David E" Subject: First Horn and Intro Hello All, It has been a while since I have posted here but have been lurking for a while. I thought this post would be a good way to jump in. My first horn was actually a student Olds trumpet bought at a pawn shop in Philly. I played trumpet from 4th grade through 9th grade. Our school band needed baritone players and I jumped at the chance. I was last chair in the trumpet section and was not having fun. At the same time our band director was trying to convince enough trombones to play in the jazz band. They needed a 4th so I volunteered. The school had an ancient Olds valve trombone. I don't even remember the model number. So I started playing the valve trombone as 4th chair in the jazz ensemble. Since this is normally the bass bone chair, there were parts that I could not play on the valve trombone. The band director suggested that I learn slide trombone as the school had an old Olds tenor trombone with an F attachment (Yes, I know, this is a recurring theme). This would enable me to play the bass part. I learned the slide (and valve) and have been having fun playing bass bone for the last 30 years! After this my parents bought me a Bach 42b. Initially I played a 6.5AL on this, but eventually moved to a 5G to play the bass parts. I played the Bach for a little over a year and was able to sell it and I bought a King Duo Gravis with a Sterling Silver bell in 1973. Through high school I played a 1.5G with this horn. Once I got to college, I went to a 1.25G. I still own this horn today. It is a fabulous horn for big bands and I even use it for pops concerts with the symphony. About 8 years ago I went out and added an Edwards bass to my "collection". This is the horn that I use for the symphony and brass band. It has a 987 bell and I use a Stork 1 mp. Dave Ernst Bass Trombone Atlantic Brass Band North Penn Symphony Orchestra ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 07:45:48 -0700 From: Ron Simon Subject: FIRST HORN --- My first horn was a “Reichlieu Soloist”, made in France, that I bought for $25.00 in a pawn shop on Main St in Los Angeles in 1947. I was in 7th grade and just starting in band in JR High. It had a King M21 mouthpiece, Played that horn all through school and some college and stopped playing in 1959 and got married. Still have the horn put away somewhere. Started playing again in 1971 with a new Yamaha YSL621 Tenor. Slide was too tight and it didn’t feel right. I looked up the yellow pages for a repair man and found some one named Earl Williams in Burbank. Took the horn there which actually was a small factory making horns. Met Earl & Bob. Earl took a look at my Yamaha but couldn’t do anything with it. Traded it back to Yamaha for a YSL643 Tenor with F attachment which I still have. Bought a new Bach 16 then started looking for horns in the newspaper ads. Bought a Bach 42B,Conn 4H,Martin ? plus others, sometimes just for the cases. Got into a big band in 1971 playing mostly lead with a Bach 16. Years later during a rehearsal a friend of Dick Nash’s son brought a pair of used Williams 6’s that Dick was selling. Tried them out and knew that I had to have one eventually even though I couldn’t afford one at that time. I now have 2 Williams 6’s & play lead in the same rehearsal band with a Bach 11C Ron Simon __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:04:39 -0500 From: Gary Greenhoe Subject: Re: Mouthpiece alterations HI John..list, I've been waiting for someone to write all of these details to the list...it's just been too difficult for me to put your great post into words! It makes one begin to feel crazy when so many players make home modifications without regard to the consequences! I am not saying that anyone who wishes to carve out mouthpieces at home is nuts, but it is really important to carefully read what John has documented before drilling out a nice Greg Black! gary Subject: Re: Mouthpiece alterations To work on a mpc properly, you need a lathe. Anything else and you are likely to make it lose it's concentricity. If you don't know that word, I'd say you should definitely go to a mpc maker for alterations. Mpc's need to be spun. Throats are cut with multi fluted reamers. Drill bits do not leave a clean enough hole. Back bores are cut with flat reamers. Cups can be modified with hand tools while the mpc is being spun. I have made many of my own mpc's, but I also used to work in a mpc factory. By the way, I make my own alto trombone mpc's. I have sold a few to frustrated souls who can't get the range and sound from their tenor mpc's on their alto tbn. It seems the factories ship tenor mpc's with their horns. Most guys use them and complain that they don't have any better range than on their tenor, and they don't get a good centered sound. You get the same thing when you use a tuba mpc on a tenor trombone. Go figure! Anyway, if you want to do it yourself, you need to do a lot of research into mpc design and acoustics. ........... .................I hope I didn't ruin it for you. And I hope this helps. John Cather ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:25:54 -0500 From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" Subject: Re: Mouthpiece alterations On Wed, 31 Jul 2002, Gary Greenhoe wrote: > words! It makes one begin to feel crazy when so many players make home > modifications without regard to the consequences! We have a fellow in our brass band who I swear buys a new mouthpiece every week. Then he takes a drill bit to it. Designer mouthpieces, not cheap knock-offs. He's probably spent enough on mouthpieces over the years I've known him to buy a new horn, and certainly enough to have had Bob Rusk fix the one he has...although he didn't much care for that suggestion. Carole cnowicke@indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:34:49 -0500 From: Scott Moore Subject: Re: First Horn Like Paul Kemp, I started on tuba because all my family could afford in 1975 was a mouthpiece. I finally got a f-attachment small-bore Selmer, followed by a used Elkhart Conn 88-H for $300 with the Marijuana still in the case (dealer should have cleaned it out). My first bass was a new-fangled 1979 Bach 50BL in-line, new for $845. Scott Moore Music Department Gustavus Adolphus College Saint Peter, MN 56082 507/933-6260 down8ve@hickorytech.net http://www.gustavus.edu/~dmoore (soon to be changed to http://www.gustavus.edu/~smoore) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:02:42 -0500 From: Gary Greenhoe Subject: Re: First Horn Hey Scott, did you find that the ol' Conn had a terrific high range? gary -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Scott Moore Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:35 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: First Horn Like Paul Kemp, I started on tuba because all my family could afford in 1975 was a mouthpiece. I finally got a f-attachment small-bore Selmer, followed by a used Elkhart Conn 88-H for $300 with the Marijuana still in the case (dealer should have cleaned it out). My first bass was a new-fangled 1979 Bach 50BL in-line, new for $845. Scott Moore Music Department Gustavus Adolphus College Saint Peter, MN 56082 507/933-6260 down8ve@hickorytech.net http://www.gustavus.edu/~dmoore (soon to be changed to http://www.gustavus.edu/~smoore) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 09:03:50 -0700 From: Gabriel Langfur Subject: Price histories, was Re: First Horn --- Scott Moore wrote: > My first bass was a new-fangled 1979 Bach 50BL in-line, > new for $845. OK< I think I mentioned this already, but my first bass was also an inline Bach, new in 1987 for $1500 (good price I think, Giardinelli's). List price for one now is probably close to $4000 now, right? Does anyone have or know of a place to see reatil price histories of brass instruments in general, trombones specifically. It seems to me that our trombones are increasing in price at large multiples of the rate of inflation...I hope I'm wrong! Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:02:36 -0500 From: Chris Waage Subject: Re: Mouthpiece alterations For the past several years, I have been absolutely fascinated by mouthpieces. Perhaps it's an outgrowth of my curious nature, but I have nearly every production (and quite a few custom) mouthpieces out there. After dumping quite a bit of money into this process, I came to a rather frustrating conclusion: The best change in a mouthpiece that can be made is to raise the time it is on your face. There are pretty standard sizes of mouthpieces for various trombone sizes: Tenor: .500 and smaller: Bach 12C, 7C (a bit big), Schilke 45, 47, 48, 50 (again, a bit big) .525: Bach 7C, 6-1/2AL, Schilke 48, 50 .547: Bach 6-1/2AL, 5G, 4G (if you've got strong chops), Schilke 50, 51 Bass: Bach 1-1/2G, 1-1/4G, 1G, Schilke 59, Schilke 60 The funniest part is that the size difference between a Bach 12C and a 5G is less than 1/10th of an inch (12C is .97" and a 5G is 1.01", or .04" difference in diameter). The difference between a Bach 1-1/2G and a Schilke 60 is also less than 1/10th of an inch (1.10" for the 1-1/2G versus 1.14" for a Schilke 60, again a .04" difference in diameter). Granted, the differences in cup depth and backbore taper and size adds many additional variables, but the largest variable in the mix is the amount of face time you're willing to commit to the instrument. To paraphrase a quote from Doug Yeo's web site, you should work on your skills until it becomes obvious to both you and your teacher that the equipment is the limitation. Chris -- ________________________________________________ Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster chris@trombone.org http://www.trombone.org - A web site for trombonists ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:17:48 -0500 From: Jeff Albert Subject: Re: First Horn I am still wonder which "dealer" didn't clean the case. jva -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU] On Behalf Of Gary Greenhoe Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:03 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: First Horn Hey Scott, did you find that the ol' Conn had a terrific high range? gary -----Original Message----- From: Trombones and related issues forum. [mailto:TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU]On Behalf Of Scott Moore Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:35 AM To: TROMBONE-L@PO.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: First Horn Like Paul Kemp, I started on tuba because all my family could afford in 1975 was a mouthpiece. I finally got a f-attachment small-bore Selmer, followed by a used Elkhart Conn 88-H for $300 with the Marijuana still in the case (dealer should have cleaned it out). My first bass was a new-fangled 1979 Bach 50BL in-line, new for $845. Scott Moore Music Department Gustavus Adolphus College Saint Peter, MN 56082 507/933-6260 down8ve@hickorytech.net http://www.gustavus.edu/~dmoore (soon to be changed to http://www.gustavus.edu/~smoore) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:21:13 -0500 From: "D. Scott Moore" Subject: Re: First Horn, Ye Olde Conne On Wednesday, July 31, 2002, at 11:02 AM, Gary Greenhoe wrote: > Hey Scott, > > did you find that the ol' Conn had a terrific high range? > gary Yep, great ax. In my ignorance I used it in marching band, causing it to (of course) break in half like any other 88-H. That "old sound" was really nice, and I've spent a lot of cash trying to make my Eddie bass sound closer to that Conn. Tony Chipurn had two while he played in Cincinnati. One was a 60's vintage, while the other was a 50's with the extra protection band on the outside edge of the main tuning slide. Extra cool. Tony would switch Conns when one failed to work. No one understood how the one that was "resting" would magically heal itself while the other was being used, as he always neglected to take it to a repair shop. Scott Moore Music Department Gustavus Adolphus College Saint Peter, MN 56082 (507)933-6260 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 11:25:28 -0500 From: "D. Scott Moore" Subject: Re: First Horn --Apple-Mail-1-433404936 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Wednesday, July 31, 2002, at 11:17 AM, Jeff Albert wrote: I am still wonder which "dealer" didn't clean the case. jva Both. Scott Moore Music Department Gustavus Adolphus College Saint Peter, MN 56082 (507)933-6260 http://www.gustavus.edu/~dmoore --Apple-Mail-1-433404936 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII On Wednesday, July 31, 2002, at 11:17 AM, Jeff Albert wrote: 0000,0000,DEDEI am still wonder which "dealer" didn't clean the case. jva Both. Scott Moore Music Department Gustavus Adolphus College Saint Peter, MN 56082 (507)933-6260 http://www.gustavus.edu/~dmoore --Apple-Mail-1-433404936-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 12:30:54 EDT From: Steve88h@AOL.COM Subject: Re: First Horn, Ye Olde Conne In a message dated 7/31/02 11:25:37 AM, down8ve@HICKORYTECH.NET writes: << Tony would switch Conns when one failed to work. No one understood how the one that was "resting" would magically heal itself while the other was being used, as he always neglected to take it to a repair shop. >> Steve Zellmer, former principal trombone of Minnesota Orchestra, believed that his Conn 8h and 88h always played better after a week's rest. Steve Lund ------------------------------ End of TROMBONE-L Digest - 30 Jul 2002 to 31 Jul 2002 (#2002-17) ****************************************************************