TROMBONE-L Digest 2433 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans by "Fred Hudson" 2) Re: chemical cleaning by "Daniel Pliskin" 3) Re: chemical cleaning by Craig Parmerlee 4) RE: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans by "Gary Greenhoe" 5) RE: chemical cleaning by Stan Brager 6) Re: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans by Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur 7) RE: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans:Now W of O by "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" 8) Re: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans:Now W of O by "Fred Hudson" 9) Re: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans by "Hector Bourg Jr." 10) Re: Chem Cleans by "Daniel Pliskin" 11) RE: chemical cleaning by "Tom Izzo" 12) RE: slide-o-mix cleaning rods at rayburn by "Gary Greenhoe" 13) Chemical cleaning. by "M & S Walker" 14) RE: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans by Gabriel Langfur 15) Re: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans by Eric & Candice Swanson 16) Myrtle Beach by "Fred Hudson" 17) Fw: SF Bay Area Trombonists by "Dean Hubbard" 18) postpone by Peter Fielding 19) Cleaning rods by Wil Salo 20) RE: Cleaning rods by "Gary Greenhoe" 21) Ode to the Ophicleide by Craig Parmerlee 22) RE: Ode to the Ophicleide by "Jeff Albert" 23) RE: Ode to the Ophicleide by Craig Parmerlee 24) RE: Ode to the Ophicleide by "Jeff Albert" 25) Re: Ode to the Ophicleide by "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" 26) Friendly Skies Advice? by lewismm@songs.sce.com 27) Re: chemical cleaning by "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:17:50 -0500 From: "Fred Hudson" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans Message-ID: <002701c21d35$6ef94fa0$2f1298d8@s0024172501> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ultrasonic cleaning is a terrific alternative to an acid treatment, but again, is not practical for the do-it-yourselfer. One of the best cleaners for use in ultrasonic baths is an industrial cleaner called "Blue Gold" which was developed as a replacement for vapor degreasing when the production of CFC's was banned. It is also available in a "hand wipe" formulation and is far safer to use than muriatic acid both to the individual and to the instrument.. http://www.bluegoldcleaners.com/ Unfortunately it is not available as a consumer item and minimum package sizes would be enough to clean your trombone for several millenia, unless you know somebody in an industry that uses it and could cadge a pint or so. Almost as good is "Simple Green" which IS available as a consumer item and comes in several different end use formulations. http://www.simplegreen.com/products/consumer/ One of the objections to Simple Green in the past has been the odor which is sort of a combination of wintergreen and licorice and could be kind of overwhelming to some people when used in poor ventilation situations. A new Lemon formulation may eliminate this objection. The original smell does not particularly bother me. Two Simple Green products which appear particularly applicable to cleaning slides are the aerosol foam, which sticks to vertical surfaces (like Pipes); and the lime deposit cleaner which contains hydroxy acetic acid or glycolic acid, a derivative of acetic acid(vinegar acid) in low concentration. There are other consumer products which are formulated similarly. These products are far safer than muriatic acid. I recommend that you check these web sites and scroll through the links to download the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) If you have a severe problem, send your slide out to a good pro slide man. If you want to do-it-yourself, remember Occam's Razor: "Entities ought not to multiplied except from necessity" (William of Occam, 14th century) Or in modern English - KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) Fred Hudson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Parmerlee" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 10:36 AM Subject: Re: Chem Cleans > Cleaning? Sure, I think we can all agree on that. Chemical cleaning? > Depends on the chemicals. After all, Dawn detergent is a chemical. > > Acid bath? That's where I begin to get uncomfortable. > > What has been missing from all of this discussion is the solution that > seems to be affordable, completely safe, and effective. This is ultrasonic > cleaning. Not every shop has this equipment, but to me, it should be the > first choice. > > > > > > > > > > At 11:20 AM 6/26/2002 -0400, bonearzt@mindspring.com wrote: > >Hi All, another reason to get a thorough chemical cleaning, especially on new > >horns, is most larger manufacturers seem to have stopped doing any kind of > >cleaning or rinsing after production. > >I have seen MANY Bach trumpets pulled straight out of the shipping box still > >caked with buffing rouge, and this is only on the outside! > >Just think what a little buffing dust will do when mixed with valve oil and > >run between the valve & casing. Can we all say NEW VALVE! And of course it > >will be the students fault, naturally! > > > >Same thing with slides and rotors. > >Just this morning, I was working on a Yamaha euph, pulled the 4th slide and > >it's loaded with corrosion and crud. Not the crud resulting from being played. > > > > > >Too bad these manufacturers aren't concerned with shipping a well built clean > >product, ready to play straight out of the box! > > > >Thanks > >Eric Edwards > >bonearzt@mindspring.com > > > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 18:35:11 +0000 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: chemical cleaning Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed They sure wouldn't stick andy more. Hmmm, it might seem like they were never there ;-) > This should work especially > well on those aluminum CL and Thayer valves! I'd prewash those > gizmos with > straight muriatic acid from the jug! They would clean up nicely. DanP PS. Kids, we're being facetious. Don't do any of these things to your trombone. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:08:04 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: chemical cleaning Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020626140715.02032e90@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:35 PM 6/26/2002 +0000, Daniel Pliskin wrote: PS. Kids, we're being facetious. Don't do any of these things to your trombone. Including any acid stronger than vinegar. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:14:35 -0500 From: "Gary Greenhoe" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, Fred,...good thinking Plus there's a Simple Green "crystal" available only from big supply houses...MSC, etc. that works great, without the smell. It's an industrial strength cleaner. Bio-degradable....etc. I've also used some of the citrus de-greasers, but have read a lot about them actually being carcinogenic...is that a word? AND...thanks to Dan for pointing out our sarcasm about the acids! Very dangerous stuff. I agree that ultrasonics are a great tool...but finding one to fit a slide in is expensive! At least 3-4 grand. Tanabe in Chicago has a huge one that will even fit tubas. It's a dream machine. I hope to have one soon....not for tubas...but trombones. Also...I have a question for either Eric.....or other tech's... how well do the brass bee bee's from Ferree's work with removing slime? There's also "Slime-away" available. Inquiring minds want to know! Are these viable alternatives? I am really concerned with the good Slide Doctor's suggestion for anyone to use muriatic acid at home...or very often. Just doesn't seem at all necessary to me. We use this stuff (muriatic) in the shop for cleaning off the flux from brazing....and it will eat up many alloys in a big hurry! Then you have to neutralize it with caustic soda, baking soda...or tons of soapy water. It is not a game! Needless to say....what a number of folks have mentioned here....nothing better than a snake...a cleaning rod, Dawn detergent, or equivalent...and some good bath tub scrubbing. I've been doing that for darn near 50 years with no problems! ...and I still have several of those horns working just fine. BTW, I picked up a really neat cleaning rod at the ITF from Rayburn in Boston. It has a terry cloth outer tube that is removable...and a brush attachment that can be screwed onto the business end of the rod....just to get around the slide crook. It comes in a plastic tube that you can usually fit into a case or gig bag for on the job cleaning. I believe it's made by the Slid-o-mix folks......OH NO.....the dreaded words! ;-) Herr Schmeltzer swears by them...and that was good enough for me. They come in two sizes (diameters) for small bore....and one for everything else. Great tools! Regards, gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Fred Hudson Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:18 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans Ultrasonic cleaning is a terrific alternative to an acid treatment, but again, is not practical for the do-it-yourselfer. One of the best cleaners for use in ultrasonic baths is an industrial cleaner called "Blue Gold" which was developed as a replacement for vapor degreasing when the production of CFC's was banned. It is also available in a "hand wipe" formulation and is far safer to use than muriatic acid both to the individual and to the instrument.. http://www.bluegoldcleaners.com/ Unfortunately it is not available as a consumer item and minimum package sizes would be enough to clean your trombone for several millenia, unless you know somebody in an industry that uses it and could cadge a pint or so. Almost as good is "Simple Green" which IS available as a consumer item and comes in several different end use formulations. http://www.simplegreen.com/products/consumer/ One of the objections to Simple Green in the past has been the odor which is sort of a combination of wintergreen and licorice and could be kind of overwhelming to some people when used in poor ventilation situations. A new Lemon formulation may eliminate this objection. The original smell does not particularly bother me. Two Simple Green products which appear particularly applicable to cleaning slides are the aerosol foam, which sticks to vertical surfaces (like Pipes); and the lime deposit cleaner which contains hydroxy acetic acid or glycolic acid, a derivative of acetic acid(vinegar acid) in low concentration. There are other consumer products which are formulated similarly. These products are far safer than muriatic acid. I recommend that you check these web sites and scroll through the links to download the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) If you have a severe problem, send your slide out to a good pro slide man. If you want to do-it-yourself, remember Occam's Razor: "Entities ought not to multiplied except from necessity" (William of Occam, 14th century) Or in modern English - KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) Fred Hudson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Parmerlee" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 10:36 AM Subject: Re: Chem Cleans > Cleaning? Sure, I think we can all agree on that. Chemical cleaning? > Depends on the chemicals. After all, Dawn detergent is a chemical. > > Acid bath? That's where I begin to get uncomfortable. > > What has been missing from all of this discussion is the solution that > seems to be affordable, completely safe, and effective. This is ultrasonic > cleaning. Not every shop has this equipment, but to me, it should be the > first choice. > > > > > > > > > > At 11:20 AM 6/26/2002 -0400, bonearzt@mindspring.com wrote: > >Hi All, another reason to get a thorough chemical cleaning, especially on new > >horns, is most larger manufacturers seem to have stopped doing any kind of > >cleaning or rinsing after production. > >I have seen MANY Bach trumpets pulled straight out of the shipping box still > >caked with buffing rouge, and this is only on the outside! > >Just think what a little buffing dust will do when mixed with valve oil and > >run between the valve & casing. Can we all say NEW VALVE! And of course it > >will be the students fault, naturally! > > > >Same thing with slides and rotors. > >Just this morning, I was working on a Yamaha euph, pulled the 4th slide and > >it's loaded with corrosion and crud. Not the crud resulting from being played. > > > > > >Too bad these manufacturers aren't concerned with shipping a well built clean > >product, ready to play straight out of the box! > > > >Thanks > >Eric Edwards > >bonearzt@mindspring.com > > > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:25:03 -0700 From: Stan Brager To: "'Adrian Drover'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: chemical cleaning Message-ID: <01C21D0C.805BAD20.sbrager@socal.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Strange you should mention this, Adrian. When computers first started making inroads into business life, I became a computer tech. The harddrives weren't very reliable in those days and nobody made backups. Often the harddrives would stop. If all else failed, we would lift the computer about 2 inches above the floor and drop it. Usually, that fixed the problem. Sometimes we had to drill a small hole into the sealed bearing and squirt in some light oil. Trombone content: yesterday, I found a used Pablo CD of a Jazz At The Phil concert in Hartford, Conn. in 1953. One cut features a dynamite solo by Bill Harris on Ellington's Cotton Tail. Thread content: do you think Bill Harris ever had his horn chem cleaned? Stan Stan Brager Trombonist-in-Training -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Drover [SMTP:slide.rule@adios.co.uk] Strange you should mention this Craig. Some years ago, I was given an abandoned soprano cornet for my son to practice on. It looked in good shape except for one thing, one of the valves wouldn't move despite intensive cleaning and lubing. I took it to our local band instrument supplier. The repair man just eyeballed the outside of the horn, never once removing the bad valve. He then held it in his left hand and gave the valve casing an almighty whack with his right fist. Afterwards, it worked perfectly and still does. I wonder, do they teach this unusual remedy at instrument maintenance school? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:40:41 -0400 From: Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur To: gary@greenhoe.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans Message-ID: <3D1A18B9.69556E25@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gary and list, Do you know where we might be able to get one of these things on line? Some of us didn't make it to the ITF. Peter Collins Bass Trombone Hamilton Philharmonic Gary Greenhoe wrote: > BTW, I picked up a really neat cleaning rod at the ITF from Rayburn in > Boston. It has a terry cloth outer tube that is removable...and a brush > attachment that can be screwed onto the business end of the rod....just to > get around the slide crook. It comes in a plastic tube that you can usually > fit into a case or gig bag for on the job cleaning. I believe it's made by > the Slid-o-mix folks......OH NO.....the dreaded words! ;-) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:25:23 -0500 From: "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" To: "'fmhudson@arkansas.net'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans:Now W of O Message-ID: <587F49FABBEDD411A68F00A0C9EA313B5FD3DB@dasmthkhn561.amedd.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C21D47.37B186E0" If you want to do-it-yourself, remember Occam's Razor: "Entities ought not to multiplied except from necessity" (William of Occam, 14th century) Or in modern English - KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) Fred Hudson =========== Fred, Fred, Fred... When will you learn. :-). Quotes on Trombone-L draw special attention and often will cause a showing "in force" of the Quote Poliia. (Special Euro-Siren heard in background...). William of Occam(or Ockham), ca. 1285-1349, may have said something like what you quoted, but according to my sources, his exact quote is "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate", or en Anglais, "plurality should not be posited without necessity." Many believe, like many attributed quotes, William, a medieval English philosopher and Franciscan monk, did not originate the concept but helped make it popular in his day. One of my sources (although I can't get back to it now) suggested that William, in his mechanical engineer mode, had been asked to survey the bridges in England and summarized what caused their failures. His written description was supposed to have used this concept. From the Skeptic's Dictionary by Robert Todd Caroll, "Occam's razor is also called the principle of parsimony. These days it is usually interpreted to mean something like "the simpler the explanation, the better" or "don't multiply hypotheses unnecessarily."" One of my favorite historical persons, medicine uses Occam's Razor as in the last paragraph. You can read more about William of Occam at http://skepdic.com/occam.html http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~lloyd/tildeMML/Notes/Ockham.html http://paedpsych.jk.uni-linz.ac.at/INTERNET/ARBEITSBLAETTERORD/PHILOSOPHIEORD/Occam.html Thanks for a great post! See URL #2 for the wording argument. Rick Marple San Antonio TX ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:59:34 -0500 From: "Fred Hudson" To: "Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans:Now W of O Message-ID: <005501c21d4b$ff967b80$2f1298d8@s0024172501> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0052_01C21D22.15B3E580" Sorry about that! Apparently my source* had attempted to simplify! LOL * Dickson, Paul, The Official Rules, Dell, New York, NY, 1978. Thanks for the links. Fred H ----- Original Message ----- From: Marple, Richard L COL BAMC-Ft Sam Houston To: 'fmhudson@arkansas.net' ; Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 2:25 PM Subject: RE: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans:Now W of O If you want to do-it-yourself, remember Occam's Razor: "Entities ought not to multiplied except from necessity" (William of Occam, 14th century) Or in modern English - KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid) Fred Hudson =========== Fred, Fred, Fred... When will you learn. :-). Quotes on Trombone-L draw special attention and often will cause a showing "in force" of the Quote Poliia. (Special Euro-Siren heard in background...). William of Occam(or Ockham), ca. 1285-1349, may have said something like what you quoted, but according to my sources, his exact quote is "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate", or en Anglais, "plurality should not be posited without necessity." Many believe, like many attributed quotes, William, a medieval English philosopher and Franciscan monk, did not originate the concept but helped make it popular in his day. One of my sources (although I can't get back to it now) suggested that William, in his mechanical engineer mode, had been asked to survey the bridges in England and summarized what caused their failures. His written description was supposed to have used this concept. From the Skeptic's Dictionary by Robert Todd Caroll, "Occam's razor is also called the principle of parsimony. These days it is usually interpreted to mean something like "the simpler the explanation, the better" or "don't multiply hypotheses unnecessarily."" One of my favorite historical persons, medicine uses Occam's Razor as in the last paragraph. You can read more about William of Occam at http://skepdic.com/occam.html http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~lloyd/tildeMML/Notes/Ockham.html http://paedpsych.jk.uni-linz.ac.at/INTERNET/ARBEITSBLAETTERORD/PHILOSOPHIEORD/Occam.html Thanks for a great post! See URL #2 for the wording argument. Rick Marple San Antonio TX ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:08:53 -0400 From: "Hector Bourg Jr." To: , "Bone List" Subject: Re: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans Message-ID: <018801c21d4d$4b8dd9b0$4d533842@hn9nz49oeloz7b> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just looked it up myself. Here's where to find the basic info: http://www.slide-o-mix.com ...looks to cost somewhere around $20 +/- HB **************************************************************************** *** Hector "Butch" Bourg Jr. - Graphic and Web Design - Atlanta, GA Trombonist - Sentimental Journey Orchestra - http://www.thesjo.com ** NOW CELEBRATING TWENTY-SIX SWINGIN' YEARS ** **************************************************************************** *** PLEASE UPDATE your e-dress for me to: sackbutt@attbi.com **************************************************************************** *** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:40 PM Subject: Re: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans > Hi Gary and list, > > Do you know where we might be able to get one of these things on line? > Some of us didn't make it to the ITF. > > Peter Collins > Bass Trombone > Hamilton Philharmonic > > Gary Greenhoe wrote: > > > BTW, I picked up a really neat cleaning rod at the ITF from Rayburn in > > Boston. It has a terry cloth outer tube that is removable...and a brush > > attachment that can be screwed onto the business end of the rod....just to > > get around the slide crook. It comes in a plastic tube that you can usually > > fit into a case or gig bag for on the job cleaning. I believe it's made by > > the Slid-o-mix folks......OH NO.....the dreaded words! ;-) > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:36:45 +0000 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Chem Cleans Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I have seen MANY Bach trumpets pulled straight out of the shipping box still caked with buffing rouge, and this is only on the outside! Just think what a little buffing dust will do when mixed with valve oil and run between the valve & casing. In just a little bit of time, you have a hand lapped valves? DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:34:42 -0500 From: "Tom Izzo" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: chemical cleaning Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan, you typed: >They sure wouldn't stick andy more. Huh?????????????????? Andy Who? And where wouldn't [they] "stick" him? [And who's "they"] I'm all confused.................... Tom ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 18:06:45 -0500 From: "Gary Greenhoe" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: slide-o-mix cleaning rods at rayburn Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Hector and List, This site Hector found has what I bought from Rayburn. That's www.rayburnmusic.com or email brass@rayburnmusic.com ..Joe or Lee will know exactly what I purchased from them...and I'm sure they would send these items promptly. I've had wonderful results with them. While you are surfing the Slide-o-mix site....I discovered a nice tutorial on slide maintenance written by our colleague Randy Kohlenburg! Interesting reading.. I find it very sensible. Don't forget to turn in the direction of a slide.... gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Hector Bourg Jr. Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:09 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans I just looked it up myself. Here's where to find the basic info: http://www.slide-o-mix.com ...looks to cost somewhere around $20 +/- HB **************************************************************************** *** Hector "Butch" Bourg Jr. - Graphic and Web Design - Atlanta, GA Trombonist - Sentimental Journey Orchestra - http://www.thesjo.com ** NOW CELEBRATING TWENTY-SIX SWINGIN' YEARS ** **************************************************************************** *** PLEASE UPDATE your e-dress for me to: sackbutt@attbi.com **************************************************************************** *** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Collins & Sara Wilbur" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 3:40 PM Subject: Re: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans > Hi Gary and list, > > Do you know where we might be able to get one of these things on line? > Some of us didn't make it to the ITF. > > Peter Collins > Bass Trombone > Hamilton Philharmonic > > Gary Greenhoe wrote: > > > BTW, I picked up a really neat cleaning rod at the ITF from Rayburn in > > Boston. It has a terry cloth outer tube that is removable...and a brush > > attachment that can be screwed onto the business end of the rod....just to > > get around the slide crook. It comes in a plastic tube that you can usually > > fit into a case or gig bag for on the job cleaning. I believe it's made by > > the Slid-o-mix folks......OH NO.....the dreaded words! ;-) > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:29:58 +1000 From: "M & S Walker" To: "Trombone-L" Subject: Chemical cleaning. Message-ID: <003101c21d71$df93a3a0$b0e2223f@ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit G'day all! First I have to say that I'm a bit alarmed at the fact that John Upchurch is out there advocating that slide cleaning is DIY job. I can't help but think about the old saying "a little bit of knowledge is more dangerous than none at all!" Whilst I don't doubt that Mr Upchurch does very fine work , (there are just too many people out there that say great things about him) I feel that he is misguided in his sentiment. I've had to repair more horns that have been "fixed" by well meaning dads than I care to think about. (Including one fellow using a screw driver and hammer to push a piston out from the bottom.) Can't help but think that there will be many more "accidents" due to people not knowing the full consequences of their actions. Having said that...... I spent 9 months at Red Wing Tech College MN learning the repair trade (topped the class, infact), and now run a VERY busy repair shop (on top of my full time Opera Co commitments) My clients include James Morrison, Dave Panichi (ex Buddy Rich), and players from all the major Symphonies here in Australia. I do not use Muriatic/Hydrocloric acid for ANYTHING!!! It is just NOT NECCESARY for someone at home!!! If it is used, it must be neutralised, (as mentioned by Gary Greenhoe) it is corrosive, and if even the tiniest speck is left inside the horn, it WILL continue to eat into the brass. At college we used straight Muriatic to strip chrome from slide tubes so that they could be soldered. It took about 2 minutes to remove the chrome!!! It also leaves the base metal pitted. This is not something you want to play with!!!!! Get the message? I believe that proper cleaning is very important for the health of your trombone. I could go on for ages about some of the things that have come through my shop, but I haven't the time. The biggest nasty that results from improper maintenance is red rot, or dezincification, but that's another thread altogether. PLEASE, only trust your beloved horns to some one that KNOWS what they're doing, and has the right equipment to do it. Cheers Matthew Walker Bass TRombonist, Opera Australia Walker's Instrument Repair, "The Brassery" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:42:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans Message-ID: <20020627004241.65509.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Gary Greenhoe wrote: > I agree that ultrasonics are a great tool...but finding > one to fit a slide > in is expensive! At least 3-4 grand. Tanabe in Chicago > has a huge one that > will even fit tubas. It's a dream machine. Ken Pope in Boston has one too. Gabe ===== ----------- Any noise that is unrelenting eventually becomes music. - Paula Carino __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:32:08 -0500 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Alternative Chemicals was Re: Chem Cleans Message-ID: <3D1A6B17.BE9B969F@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary Greenhoe wrote: > Also...I have a question for either Eric.....or other tech's... how well do > the brass bee bee's from Ferree's work with removing slime? There's also > "Slime-away" available. Inquiring minds want to know! > Are these viable alternatives? Gary, I haven't tried the BBs, and haven't heard anything about them. I've always said the muriatic (and Slime-Away) should only be used by professional repair technicians. It does clean out the horn very well, and its use shouldn't be feared, but it's not for do-it-yourselfers. Eric Swanson ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:52:35 -0500 From: "Fred Hudson" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Myrtle Beach Message-ID: <008c01c21d7d$504c7260$2f1298d8@s0024172501> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0089_01C21D53.668CF4C0" Listers Save your "Caustic" comments about that trouble makin' chemist till after the fourth, I'll be back the following week. Y'all have a great holiday now ya' heah. Fred H ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:49:12 -0700 From: "Dean Hubbard" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Fw: SF Bay Area Trombonists Message-ID: <004a01c21da6$bff86960$8502a8c0@dean> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A&G MUSIC of Oakland and CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY HAYWARD ANNOUNCE TROMBONE DAY OCTOBER 26, 2002 at CSUH ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This year's event will feature: John Marcellus, trombone professor Eastman School of Music, formerly with the National Symphony Tom "Bones" Malone of the David Letterman show, the Blues Brothers and countless recordings (As of today, Tom Malone's appearence is pending) Art Sayers, trombone legend will be featured in a concert of Tommy Dorsey's music accompanied by a trombone sextette and rhythm section David Ridge, bass trombone with the San Francisco Opera Orchestra and CSUH faculty member Billy Robinson and the Bay Bones in concert ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As always, events are free to all interested parties. More information will be coming your way as soon as plans are finalized. Please mark the day, Saturday, October 26, 2002 at CSUH. Please feel free to pass this note on to any interested parties! Thanks, Dean Hubbard Artist/Clinician for United Musical Instruments Bonedean@msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 05:01:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Fielding To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: postpone Message-ID: <20020627120124.16390.qmail@web9407.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:01:36 -0400 From: Wil Salo To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Cleaning rods Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020627090936.00b7e1a0@mail.charter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The best slide cleaning rod I have ever used is Hoppe's SGU all gauge shotgun cleaning rod which is probably available at most hardware or sporting goods stores at under $10.00. It consists of three aluminum rods about 1/4" diameter and about a foot long, one having a nicely formed plastic handle. The three sections screw together and accept a slotted plastic tip into which you can thread a cleaning swab. Being aluminum, it's light weight and there isn't much chance of the rod damaging the slide. Best of all, it breaks down into a very compact package which can find a home in most cases. I don't know how they are currently packaged, but mine came in a handy zip top plastic bag which forms a good carry case. Wil ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:23:18 -0500 From: "Gary Greenhoe" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Cleaning rods Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Wil, I'm sorry...the only point I was trying to make is that this Slide-o-mix is the first such item I've ever seen that was designed for trombone slides. The MOST important points being: it comes with a very heavy duty full length sock that works tremendously well with the cleaning process. No more looking for a piece of cloth, or whatever to snag on the end. It can be readily removed...or left on the rod wet...with a soapy solution for those emergency fixes at intermission, etc. The other major point....the seemingly sturdy detachable brush that's part of the kit. It is a well thought out design, IMHO..that solves a decades old problem for this slider. gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Wil Salo Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 9:02 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Cleaning rods The best slide cleaning rod I have ever used is Hoppe's SGU all gauge shotgun cleaning rod which is probably available at most hardware or sporting goods stores at under $10.00. It consists of three aluminum rods about 1/4" diameter and about a foot long, one having a nicely formed plastic handle. The three sections screw together and accept a slotted plastic tip into which you can thread a cleaning swab. Being aluminum, it's light weight and there isn't much chance of the rod damaging the slide. Best of all, it breaks down into a very compact package which can find a home in most cases. I don't know how they are currently packaged, but mine came in a handy zip top plastic bag which forms a good carry case. Wil ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:40:21 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Ode to the Ophicleide Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020627103955.00b3b930@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed THE OPHICLEIDE The Ophicleide, like mortal sin, Was fostered by the serpent. Its pitch was vague; its tone was dim; Its timbre, rude and burpant. Composers, in a secret vote, Declared its sound non grata; And that's why Wagner never wrote An Ophicleide Sonata. Thus spurned, it soon became defunct, To gross neglect succumbing; A few were pawned, but most were junked Or used for indoor plumbing. And so this ill wind, badly blown, Has now completely vanished: I nominate the Heckelphone (saxophone?) To be the next one banished Farewell, offensive Ophicleide, Your epitaph is chiseled: "I died of ophicleidicide: I tried, alas, but fizzled!" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:47:19 -0500 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: RE: Ode to the Ophicleide Message-ID: <000401c21df1$ebd5dae0$82269d42@jeff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That's beautiful. Do you take requests? Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Craig Parmerlee Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 10:40 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Ode to the Ophicleide THE OPHICLEIDE The Ophicleide, like mortal sin, Was fostered by the serpent. Its pitch was vague; its tone was dim; Its timbre, rude and burpant. Composers, in a secret vote, Declared its sound non grata; And that's why Wagner never wrote An Ophicleide Sonata. Thus spurned, it soon became defunct, To gross neglect succumbing; A few were pawned, but most were junked Or used for indoor plumbing. And so this ill wind, badly blown, Has now completely vanished: I nominate the Heckelphone (saxophone?) To be the next one banished Farewell, offensive Ophicleide, Your epitaph is chiseled: "I died of ophicleidicide: I tried, alas, but fizzled!" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:51:37 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Ode to the Ophicleide Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020627105032.00b40a20@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:47 AM 6/27/2002 -0500, Jeff Albert wrote: That's beautiful. Do you take requests? Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com It's not my writing. It was one of those anonymous things that comes across the internet. But I could be persuaded to set it to music for the right commission. :) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:56:15 -0500 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: RE: Ode to the Ophicleide Message-ID: <000c01c21df3$2b429f00$82269d42@jeff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was just envisioning a nice "Jazz is dead/Bird lives" type of thing, or maybe that's the other way around... Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Craig Parmerlee Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 10:52 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Ode to the Ophicleide At 10:47 AM 6/27/2002 -0500, Jeff Albert wrote: >That's beautiful. Do you take requests? > >Jeff Albert > >www.jeffalbert.com It's not my writing. It was one of those anonymous things that comes across the internet. But I could be persuaded to set it to music for the right commission. :) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:58:15 -0500 (EST) From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" To: Craig Parmerlee Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Ode to the Ophicleide Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Craig Parmerlee wrote: > THE OPHICLEIDE You must realize that the Ophicleidists' Union and the Ophicleidists' Anti-Defamation League will be filing grievances. Carole "when they pry the keys out of my cold, dead, fingers" Nowicke cnowicke@indiana.edu ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:22:46 -0700 From: lewismm@songs.sce.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Friendly Skies Advice? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It has been years since I have travelled with my trombone. Flying to Aebersold improv camp via United Airlines this weekend, and am planning to carry my horn aboard. Shires straight 0.525" tenor in a Walt Johnson hard case...not too big at all by trombonist standards. I've read with interest anecdotes from bone-l travellers. Any final advice or helpful hints regarding finessing my way through the post 9-11 gauntlet with the bone case? thank you, Mark Lewis Oceanside, CA. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433 Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:28:01 -0400 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: chemical cleaning Message-ID: <050a01c21df7$9bb08640$4b5a4d0c@bigshark> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear List, I've been following this thread on chemical cleaning quite closely, and I've had my slide done that way by John Upchurch, and I'm not absolutely convinced that it is absolutely necessary. The cons, in my mind, far outweigh the pros, especially with older instruments. One fact still remains though, and that is that trombone slides need good, consistent maintenance. I have purchased 3 slides over the past 15 years or so that I would bet $1000 that had never been cleaned out. The amount of oxidation in these slides was formidable. On 2 of them, I had to have the outer tubes replaced---more on that later on. On brand new slides, I think the best approach is to take Mother's Aluminum and Mag Wheel Polish and polish out the outer slide tubes untill they shine. The manufacturers do not really clean slides before they ship them to the dealers, and it is not uncommon for the red rouge necessary for buffing the tubes to get into the inside of the tubes. This must be removed. Mothers does a fantastic job. Then, use Dawn Dishwashing Detergent to remove the excess residue. I have a long nylon bristle brush the length of a slide tube that I use to scrub out the outer tubes after I fill them with lukewarm water. Then dry out the tubes with a clean paper towel on a cleaning rod, or with the Slide-O-Mix rod. The terry cloth mop (as the British calls it, does very well for this.) Then use the lubricant of your choice. This is the oldest thread on the list, and I've had good success with the Conn (Superslik) and the silicone, and I've also had good success with Slide-O-Mix. The trick is NOT TO USE TOO MUCH. Very clean slides do not need much lubrication at all. Too much lubrication will indeed cause clean slides to become very sluggish. If you'll do this when you get a brand new horn (slide), you should never have to have it chemically cleaned, it will work fantastically, (provided that you don't bow it out of alignment) and the tubes will last almost indefinitely (40, 50, 60 years). Clean the slide once a week. Polish it out once a year, if necessary. Now, should you get an older horn that has never or rarely been cleaned out, and if you like the sound of the horn, but the slide is really atrocicous, it could be that it is really out of alignment, or that it needs to be cleaned. The cleaning you can do yourself. The alignment is best left to a good technician (John Upchurch, Todd Clontz, or Eric Edwards do fantastic work). If after you have cleaned it out and it still doesn't work smoothly, you might investigate the option of having the outer tubes replaced. That is a FRACTION of the price of a new slide section, and for very old slides, especially with very small bore sizes, this might not be that easy to do. However, I have found this: Bach does make slide tubing in a very wide variety of sizes, and they tend to use a very high quality of brass. If Bach tubes are too long, they can be cut down to size: the important thing to remember is that if the bore size is right, then the length of the tube can be cut down, and you can get either brass or nickel silver. That way, you can use your same U-bend, your same right hand brace, and your same inner slides, which contain the same venturi tube, which inevitably is going to affect how the slide responds to your personal style of playing and the fit of your mouthpiece. The 3 slides that I bought---the first one was able to be cleaned out, the second one (a 1965 Bach 16) the slide had never been cleaned out, and the metal had pitted on the inside of the outer tubes, so I had the outer tubes replaced, and thanks to Eric Edwards, it is now FANTASTIC. The 3rd one was a 1975 42B slide that Todd Clontz replaced the outer tubes for me, and it is FANTASTIC. They can even relacquer the U-bend, and all of the other parts, and it will look like a brand new slide at a fraction of the price (usually under $200, including the shipping). A Bach slide section now sells for about $1000--so to me, that's a no-brainer. In both cases, I did have to polish out the new tubes with Mother's and they are quiet and very, very fast. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2433--