TROMBONE-L Digest 2415 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: USA Today Article by "Gary D. Maxwell" 2) Re: USA Today Article by "Adrian Drover" 3) Beethoven's Fifth by Howard Weiner 4) Beware that Hootchy-Kootchy Sort of Intonation by "Bill Dinwiddie" 5) hagmann rotor question by danoyes@juno.com 6) RE: USA Today Article by "Tom Izzo" 7) Re: hagmann rotor question by "Dave Wank" 8) Re: Factory tour by Gabriel Langfur 9) Re: USA Today Article by Earl Needham 10) Re: Factory tour by "Galen McQuarrie" 11) Re: Factory tour by "McFarland's" 12) Lester Bowie Brass Fantasy by =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hugo_Garc=EDa_Sampedro?= 13) Re: Factory tour by "Daniel Pliskin" 14) Re: Factory tour by Craig Parmerlee 15) Re: Factory tour by "greg waits" 16) Re: Factory tour by "McFarland's" 17) Re: Factory tour by "McFarland's" 18) Re: Factory tour by "Adrian Drover" 19) Re: Factory tour by "Daniel Pliskin" 20) Re: Factory tour by emrose79@pacbell.net ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 10:25:57 -0700 From: "Gary D. Maxwell" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: USA Today Article Message-ID: <001501c20f11$8e847020$05525d3f@garymaxwell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yup, that's me. Here to cause trouble. Gary =========== From: "Daniel Pliskin" > > I guess you just canÕt win. Either you offend some people by yelling or you > offend other people by using a microphone. > > DanP > > > >Well, geeeeeees luweeeeeeeze Adrian!, you don't have to shout. Hook up an > >amplifier. > > > >Gary > >======================================== > > > From: "Earl Needham" > > > > > > > >I'm quite sure that most people, especially kids, don't even know > >what > >an > > > > >acoustic guitar sounds like. > >======================================= > > >From Adrian Grover > > > > > > > > A WHAT??? > > > > > > Are you deaf? AN ACOUSTIC GUITAR! Read my lips... > > > AH-KOOS-TIK GEE-TARRR! > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the worldÕs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:40:22 +0100 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: USA Today Article Message-ID: <002401c20f13$bef4ba60$1791fc3e@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Chris Waage" > I thought "acoustic" was something with which one played billiards. Nah, a coo stick is something you stick up a bovine's backside to read its temperature. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 19:56:25 +0200 From: Howard Weiner To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Beethoven's Fifth Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020608195148.009ef350@mail.sampo.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Here's another tidbit from the Berliner Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung. This is from a review of a concert given in Berlin on January 20, 1830. ****************** The concert opened with Beethoven's C-Minor Symphony. ...The trombonists and trumpeters deserve special criticism. At the beginning of the last movement they never enter resolutely and powerfully on the first beat, but always only on the second. Is it too much trouble for them to count rests? Next time, the names of those who do not want to take the trouble to count rests in Beethoven's masterpiece shall be made public. For these are only a few black sheep from among the excellent and with noble fervor inspired personal of the Royal Orchestra. ******************** Howard -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner If vegetarians eat only vegetables, what do humanitarians eat? ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 13:25:49 -0500 From: "Bill Dinwiddie" To: "List Trombone" Subject: Beware that Hootchy-Kootchy Sort of Intonation Message-ID: <005401c20f19$ea3a8d20$5a34f90c@attbi.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Listers, >From the August 10, 1925 issue of TIME magazine: "Looking for something to keep the police of Washington, D.C., busy in the summer, someone exhumed last week an old order forbidding 'indecent music'... There was some diversity of opinion as to what sort of music the police were supposed to suppress. Said Mrs. Mina Van Winkle, chief of policewomen: 'That tom-tommy sort of Oriental music that makes men forget home and babies.' Said the Assistant Corporation Counsel: 'You know what I mean, that hootchy-kootchy sort of intonation.' Said Sergeant Rhoda Millikan, policewoman: 'Any music played on the saxophone is immoral.' " Sgt. Millikan might have been implying that trombone music had a somewhat higher standing in the community of that time. What about now? Hope you have a very nice summer, but if you're planning a trip to D.C., BE CAREFUL! Bill Dinwiddie bill752d@attbi.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:28:05 GMT From: danoyes@juno.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: hagmann rotor question Message-ID: <20020608.142858.5303.79352@wm12.nyc.untd.com> Does anyone on the list use a Hagmann rotor? I have one on my Besson Sovereign and am wondering what a part that's missing looks like. It attaches onto the rotor's central rod [axis] where it protudes slightly out of the hole on the of the rotor. Is it a clip or a nut or some other thing? It keeps the rotor from popping out like a "jack-in-the-box". Without it, that's what happens. Also, do you have an idea where I could order some of these...e-mail or phone number? Thanks! Dan ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 14:21:09 -0500 From: "Tom Izzo" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: USA Today Article Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VERY GOOD Chris.!!!! You're very cued, er, clued, in :-) Tom [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Chris Waage I thought "acoustic" was something with which one played billiards. Chris ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 16:06:45 -0400 From: "Dave Wank" To: "Trombone-L" , Subject: Re: hagmann rotor question Message-ID: <001301c20f28$04e7be00$a598fea9@DaveWank> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan, Hagmann has a web site at: http://www.trombone.ch/pages/fram1.html You should be able to connect with them from there. Dave Wank ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 16:21:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Factory tour Message-ID: <20020608232100.73390.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- McFarland's wrote: > I'm glad someone brought some definition to the often > misunderstood term "Quality." I'm a control > systems/electrical engineer for a large (well-known > Fortune-500) diversified manufacturing corporation. As > such, I work with marketing people, chemical engineers, > process & product engineers, and quality engineers (an > oxymoron if I ever heard one!!). I can tell you this... > "Quality" is all(!!!) about reducing variability in the > product. OK, I'm sure that's the technical definition of quality for your field, but I would assert that musical instruments require a slightly different set of definitions. Stradivarius and Guarneri, by the general agreement of violinists all over the world, produced the greatest violins the world has ever seen, but they were certainly not interchangeable. Every instrument that came out of their shops has a personality of its own and a unique sound quality. Geyer french horns are still in high demand, but the tubing was measured with lenghths of string! Some of them are bad, but the good ones sound incredible. > Usually there is one significant difference > between consumer-grade products (i.e. student-line horns) > and professional-grade products... variability. Sure, > consumer-grade products also use lower-quality (i.e. > cheaper) raw materials, but they are usually > lower-quality because they are more variable. Maybe I'm wrong, but my impression is that student-grade horns are generally much more predictable than professional instruments - most of them equally bad. But I think the cost difference has more to do with manufacturing processes than with materials. More machine or unskilled labor work, less skilled hand work, which usually seems to mean that they are MORE consistent, not less. > It costs > more money to make a consistent (i.e. less variable) > product. The bottom line always leads to this > question... "How much variability is acceptable for this > product?" Actually, I think the relevant question in brass instrument manufacturing is where is variablity unacceptable and where is it a desired quality. Ideally, slides and valves should all be mechanically perfect, with the same tolerances from one to another. The bell flare, on the other hand, requires more of a craftsman approach - 2 bells of the same designation from Shires or Edwards will be VERY similar, but will have slight differences that result from the hand-hammering that finishes the process. Yamaha advertises that their top-level instruments also have hand-hammered bells, for the good reason that the level of variability that comes from that process produces a superior instrument. Or maybe I should say that the process produces a superior instrument, despite the level of variability. I'm sure that's a more accurate statement. > As far as > I'm concerned, Yamaha has cornered the market on reducing > variability in their products and manufacturing > processes. They've been doing it for years. They > listened to their customers. Actually Yamaha didn't make any serious inroads in professional instruments for a long time - until they started enlisting top players like Doug Yeo and Steve Norrell to work with them on designs. They failed for a long time because they DIDN'T listen to customers. And they still haven't made a large-bore tenor that has found real acceptance in symphony orchestras. > While shopping, I found the new Conn 88H's > to be just as consistent as the new Yamaha's. Bach's, on > the other hand, were all over the map and their Thayer > valves were especially quirky. Agreed, Bach has been behind on this issue, and now it seems they need to address it. But for a long time, nobody could come close to quality of the best instruments they produced. Serious players knew they had to search for a good one, but when they found it there was no comparison. And thayer valves are quirky, period - it's a design flaw - but, again, when you have a good one it's excellent. > While I liked the > Yamaha's (they felt like home), I actually purchased a > Conn with the CL valve because I like the sound and > response a little more. Conn's CL2000 valve is great... > very open, quick response, short stroke, low inertia > rotor. I just hope the aircraft aluminum rotor holds up > over time!! I'm sure you made an excellent choice. I have a question for you though: if the best horn you played all day, hands down, was a Bach, would you have bought it, even though you knew it was one-of-a-kind and would be hard to replace? I know I would... Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 18:14:53 -0600 From: Earl Needham To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: USA Today Article Message-ID: <4.2.2.20020608181412.00fb1ff0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed No, it's a device certain nations use for "counting coup", i.e. tabulating victories over one's enemies! Earl At 08:48 AM 6/8/2002 -0500, Chris Waage wrote: I thought "acoustic" was something with which one played billiards. Chris Well, geeeeeees luweeeeeeeze Adrian!, you don't have to shout. Hook up an amplifier. Gary ======================================== From: "Earl Needham" > >I'm quite sure that most people, especially kids, don't even know what an > >acoustic guitar sounds like. ======================================= From Adrian Grover > > A WHAT??? Are you deaf? AN ACOUSTIC GUITAR! Read my lips... AH-KOOS-TIK GEE-TARRR! -- ________________________________________________ Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster chris@trombone.org http://www.trombone.org - A web site for trombonists ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:01:17 -0700 From: "Galen McQuarrie" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Factory tour Message-ID: <000501c20f51$292121c0$6401a8c0@pocketinet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree wholeheartedly with Gabe Langfur. There was an excellent book written a couple of generations ago called "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence" about one man's search for quality. It drove him crazy, and left you with the decided impression that "Quality" was something that, like pornography, you knew when you saw it, but it was decidedly difficult to hang a definition on. Yamaha makes good musical instruments, there is no question about that. The Japanese bought into the Demming model of Quality Assurance many years ago, and more companies should emulate it. They produce a good, consistent product, and if I were going to buy a horn sight unseen, I would get one. But remember, McDonald's also produce a consistent product. And while you are never going to get ptomaine poisioning as from the local greasy spoon, neither are you going to get a meal from the Chez Ritz. I have a Bach 42, and I am wholly satisfied with it. My section mate in our little local band has a Conn 88H and we have traded horns and compaired them. We both agree the Bach is the more satisfactory to US. (Note the emphasis) Ironically, it was this same person's complaint about the quality of his Conn (particularly the slide action) that let me to purchace my Bach 42. I strongly considered both horns. I also have a very strong penchant for buying American products and thus I must beg some bias, (probably ill founded) against Yamaha. I think that if Selmer were wise, though, they would address the quality inconsistency of their Bach models. They could wind up getting skunked. Much as the F. E. Olds company did in the 70s. I do have to say, though I have not personally seen or know anyone that has purchacsed a "lemon" Bach Strad. (I am sure that we will hear from many who have.) And if you did, if it was an obvious flaw, the instrument is guaranteed. I wouldn't buy a $2000.00 horn without thoroughly auditioning it anyway. Also, Bach aside, I doubt you would ever find consistency in the manufacture of Edwards, Shires, Rath, Thein or other lesser known makers. That is just not the way they are organized. Variety and custom work is their specialty. I don't think that JUST reducing variability is an adequate paradigm for Quality in a musical instrument. -- GSM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabriel Langfur" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 4:21 PM Subject: Re: Factory tour | --- McFarland's wrote: | > I'm glad someone brought some definition to the often | > misunderstood term "Quality." I'm a control | > systems/electrical engineer for a large (well-known | > Fortune-500) diversified manufacturing corporation. As | > such, I work with marketing people, chemical engineers, | > process & product engineers, and quality engineers (an | > oxymoron if I ever heard one!!). I can tell you this... | > "Quality" is all(!!!) about reducing variability in the | > product. | | OK, I'm sure that's the technical definition of quality for | your field, but I would assert that musical instruments | require a slightly different set of definitions. | Stradivarius and Guarneri, by the general agreement of | violinists all over the world, produced the greatest | violins the world has ever seen, but they were certainly | not interchangeable. Every instrument that came out of | their shops has a personality of its own and a unique sound | quality. Geyer french horns are still in high demand, but | the tubing was measured with lenghths of string! Some of | them are bad, but the good ones sound incredible. | | | > Usually there is one significant difference | > between consumer-grade products (i.e. student-line horns) | > and professional-grade products... variability. Sure, | > consumer-grade products also use lower-quality (i.e. | > cheaper) raw materials, but they are usually | > lower-quality because they are more variable. | | Maybe I'm wrong, but my impression is that student-grade | horns are generally much more predictable than professional | instruments - most of them equally bad. But I think the | cost difference has more to do with manufacturing processes | than with materials. More machine or unskilled labor work, | less skilled hand work, which usually seems to mean that | they are MORE consistent, not less. | | > It costs | > more money to make a consistent (i.e. less variable) | > product. The bottom line always leads to this | > question... "How much variability is acceptable for this | > product?" | | Actually, I think the relevant question in brass instrument | manufacturing is where is variablity unacceptable and where | is it a desired quality. Ideally, slides and valves should | all be mechanically perfect, with the same tolerances from | one to another. The bell flare, on the other hand, requires | more of a craftsman approach - 2 bells of the same | designation from Shires or Edwards will be VERY similar, | but will have slight differences that result from the | hand-hammering that finishes the process. Yamaha advertises | that their top-level instruments also have hand-hammered | bells, for the good reason that the level of variability | that comes from that process produces a superior | instrument. Or maybe I should say that the process produces | a superior instrument, despite the level of variability. | I'm sure that's a more accurate statement. | | > As far as | > I'm concerned, Yamaha has cornered the market on reducing | > variability in their products and manufacturing | > processes. They've been doing it for years. They | > listened to their customers. | | Actually Yamaha didn't make any serious inroads in | professional instruments for a long time - until they | started enlisting top players like Doug Yeo and Steve | Norrell to work with them on designs. They failed for a | long time because they DIDN'T listen to customers. And they | still haven't made a large-bore tenor that has found real | acceptance in symphony orchestras. | | > While shopping, I found the new Conn 88H's | > to be just as consistent as the new Yamaha's. Bach's, on | > the other hand, were all over the map and their Thayer | > valves were especially quirky. | | Agreed, Bach has been behind on this issue, and now it | seems they need to address it. But for a long time, nobody | could come close to quality of the best instruments they | produced. Serious players knew they had to search for a | good one, but when they found it there was no comparison. | And thayer valves are quirky, period - it's a design flaw - | but, again, when you have a good one it's excellent. | | > While I liked the | > Yamaha's (they felt like home), I actually purchased a | > Conn with the CL valve because I like the sound and | > response a little more. Conn's CL2000 valve is great... | > very open, quick response, short stroke, low inertia | > rotor. I just hope the aircraft aluminum rotor holds up | > over time!! | | I'm sure you made an excellent choice. I have a question | for you though: if the best horn you played all day, hands | down, was a Bach, would you have bought it, even though you | knew it was one-of-a-kind and would be hard to replace? I | know I would... | | Gabe | | __________________________________________________ | Do You Yahoo!? | Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup | http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 22:56:48 -0500 From: "McFarland's" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Factory tour Message-ID: <001c01c20f69$af7eca20$294a4740@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gabe, What if Stradivarius could have understood his products and processes to the point where he could have consistently reproduced instruments with any characteristics his customers asked for... and never make a bad one? Of course the technology was not available then. We're still not completely there (there's no such thing as zero variability). But we're a heckuva lot closer than Stradivarius was. Imagine being able to audition different horns and being able to pick and choose exactly what you want before you place an order... Wait a minute... We're damn close to that now!! That's what "PPU" is all about. Some companies are already using it (it's not a new idea!!). Just because Yamaha hand hammers their bells doesn't mean they don't use tight controls over the process. Controlling variability does not necessarily imply automation or machine intervention. Although I mainly work with automation, my company uses manual labor for tasks that are better suited to people... usually because people can do certain tasks more consistently than machines. But make no mistake... machines can do a lot of things better, faster, cheaper, and more consistently than people - especially if the machines are self-monitoring and self-adjusting. Just 15 years ago, many people in my company firmly believed that we had topped out with our product quality and consistency... It was "too much of an art" to make any improvements. Then along come high-speed computers, sensors, controllers, etc... (combined with the right attitudes and really understanding our products and processes). We're now making products that blow our old ones (and competitor's products) out of the water. This is true of many products in different markets. There is no reason to believe that it won't happen in musical instrument manufacturing (it's already happening!!). Yamaha listened to customers who would not accept low quality (high variability)... like Doug Yeo (among others). They learned a lot about their products and processes along the way. Yamaha and others are continuing to bridge the gap between art and science in the area of brass instrument manufacturing. They are learning how to reproduce certain characteristics when customers ask for them. We are the beneficiaries of their work. Good question about the Bach!! I honestly don't know what I would have done. It would have been a difficult decision. I know I'm pretty happy with my 88H!! By the way... from what I've seen of the newer student line horns in our Middle School and High School (Conns, Yamahas, & Kings), they are mostly pretty bad but not necessarily in the same way... i.e. soldering, color of the metals, blotchy lacquer, ease of slide movement, loose water keys, etc... Some are actually pretty good. (I know this because I've been trying horns for my son who is starting trombone this summer). This implies a comparatively high level of variability. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: Gabriel Langfur To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 6:21 PM Subject: Re: Factory tour > --- McFarland's wrote: > > I'm glad someone brought some definition to the often > > misunderstood term "Quality." I'm a control > > systems/electrical engineer for a large (well-known > > Fortune-500) diversified manufacturing corporation. As > > such, I work with marketing people, chemical engineers, > > process & product engineers, and quality engineers (an > > oxymoron if I ever heard one!!). I can tell you this... > > "Quality" is all(!!!) about reducing variability in the > > product. > > OK, I'm sure that's the technical definition of quality for > your field, but I would assert that musical instruments > require a slightly different set of definitions. > Stradivarius and Guarneri, by the general agreement of > violinists all over the world, produced the greatest > violins the world has ever seen, but they were certainly > not interchangeable. Every instrument that came out of > their shops has a personality of its own and a unique sound > quality. Geyer french horns are still in high demand, but > the tubing was measured with lenghths of string! Some of > them are bad, but the good ones sound incredible. > > > > Usually there is one significant difference > > between consumer-grade products (i.e. student-line horns) > > and professional-grade products... variability. Sure, > > consumer-grade products also use lower-quality (i.e. > > cheaper) raw materials, but they are usually > > lower-quality because they are more variable. > > Maybe I'm wrong, but my impression is that student-grade > horns are generally much more predictable than professional > instruments - most of them equally bad. But I think the > cost difference has more to do with manufacturing processes > than with materials. More machine or unskilled labor work, > less skilled hand work, which usually seems to mean that > they are MORE consistent, not less. > > > It costs > > more money to make a consistent (i.e. less variable) > > product. The bottom line always leads to this > > question... "How much variability is acceptable for this > > product?" > > Actually, I think the relevant question in brass instrument > manufacturing is where is variablity unacceptable and where > is it a desired quality. Ideally, slides and valves should > all be mechanically perfect, with the same tolerances from > one to another. The bell flare, on the other hand, requires > more of a craftsman approach - 2 bells of the same > designation from Shires or Edwards will be VERY similar, > but will have slight differences that result from the > hand-hammering that finishes the process. Yamaha advertises > that their top-level instruments also have hand-hammered > bells, for the good reason that the level of variability > that comes from that process produces a superior > instrument. Or maybe I should say that the process produces > a superior instrument, despite the level of variability. > I'm sure that's a more accurate statement. > > > As far as > > I'm concerned, Yamaha has cornered the market on reducing > > variability in their products and manufacturing > > processes. They've been doing it for years. They > > listened to their customers. > > Actually Yamaha didn't make any serious inroads in > professional instruments for a long time - until they > started enlisting top players like Doug Yeo and Steve > Norrell to work with them on designs. They failed for a > long time because they DIDN'T listen to customers. And they > still haven't made a large-bore tenor that has found real > acceptance in symphony orchestras. > > > While shopping, I found the new Conn 88H's > > to be just as consistent as the new Yamaha's. Bach's, on > > the other hand, were all over the map and their Thayer > > valves were especially quirky. > > Agreed, Bach has been behind on this issue, and now it > seems they need to address it. But for a long time, nobody > could come close to quality of the best instruments they > produced. Serious players knew they had to search for a > good one, but when they found it there was no comparison. > And thayer valves are quirky, period - it's a design flaw - > but, again, when you have a good one it's excellent. > > > While I liked the > > Yamaha's (they felt like home), I actually purchased a > > Conn with the CL valve because I like the sound and > > response a little more. Conn's CL2000 valve is great... > > very open, quick response, short stroke, low inertia > > rotor. I just hope the aircraft aluminum rotor holds up > > over time!! > > I'm sure you made an excellent choice. I have a question > for you though: if the best horn you played all day, hands > down, was a Bach, would you have bought it, even though you > knew it was one-of-a-kind and would be hard to replace? I > know I would... > > Gabe > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 02:26:14 -0300 From: Hugo Garc’a Sampedro To: "Trombone-list" Subject: Lester Bowie Brass Fantasy Message-ID: <000a01c20f76$2ebea9c0$41752bc8@user061a> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C20F5D.07617D80" Hello Sometime in the past I postedÊthe same question with no results... lets try again. I would like to know if there are available arrangements of theÊLester Bowie's Brass Fantasy repertoire (I Only have Eyes for You, etc.) I looked over the web and I found no results... and it is wonderful music to play, so I will be grateful to received any kind of information concerning this issue. Thanks a lot -Hugo ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 06:16:48 +0000 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Factory tour Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed One problem with not being able to produce a consistent product is that you can never quite tell if youâve improved the product, without producing enough of the ãimprovedä version, to generate a considerable statistical sample. Without consistency, you also canât tell when your manufacturing process has been compromised. If you get a bad batch of tubes, you canât tell until youâve produced many instruments, that your process is off. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Join the worldâs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 07:34:05 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Factory tour Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020609071007.01e99568@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:56 PM 6/8/2002 -0500, McFarland's wrote: What if Stradivarius could have understood his products and processes to the point where he could have consistently reproduced instruments with any characteristics his customers asked for... and never make a bad one? Of course the technology was not available then. More than anything else, what made the Strads so exceptional was the very dense wood that was available in original growth forests nearby. It is the same thing that makes Guarnerius axes so desirable. Wood is naturally variable. I don't really see it as a function of technology in that case. There isn't much of that great old wood available anymore. Today the top violin makers look everywhere, sometimes converting antique furniture into violins. There is a fellow who has been rescuing old logs from the bottom of Lake Superior, left over from a harvesting operation a century ago -- original old growth stuff. I think all of the great violin makers would gladly trade the best manufacturing machine for a good stash of great wood. I don't know how this translates to brass making. Maybe it is more practical to apply Demming principles to the art of brass. Personally I have seen organizations doing a "forest versus trees" thing by taking a single minded approach to Demming. Consistency is nice, but what you really want is one great instrument. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 07:49:42 -0700 From: "greg waits" To: , "trombone list" Subject: Re: Factory tour Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0000_01C20F8A.37045710" This mention of "old wood" somehow made me think of the stories I have heard about the lesser quality of brass alloys used inÊthe manufactureÊofÊtrombones today. Is it a cost saving measure that has brought some companies to this? Is it a common reality? I am a Bach clinician, andÊI truly hope that the reputation for inconsitency can be overcome. I have played nothing but BachsÊsince my dad bought me my first 42B inÊ1972.ÊOver the years, probably more than 25 Bach strads have passed through my hands.ÊI have never personally encountered a lemon. The reputation of old Bach's - esp.ÊMt Vernons and NYsÊ- are legendary. The challenge is finding one thatÊisn't trashed completely. I have ownedÊseveralÊmodel 36s in particular, and everyÊone had a distinctÊpersonality. The one I like theÊbest is one that was made in 1952 (NY model) and was given to be by the original owner. IÊam very fortunate in that he took extremely good care ofÊthe horn, and - thanks be to GodÊ- heÊnever marched with it! What one person might refer to as variability, I would call personality. Some were brighter, some were darker, but they all had good response and wonderful overtones. Most of the ones I had were made in Elkhart. When I got the New York 36, I owned 2 Elkhart 36s already. I sat down and played all three of the 36s to decide which one I liked best. In most areas of comparison, the differences were minimal, but the NY had an unbelievable resonance. Thanks to Trombone-L for yet another fascinating topic of discussion! GW ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Parmerlee Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 5:33 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Factory tour At 10:56 PM 6/8/2002 -0500, McFarland's wrote: >What if Stradivarius could have understood his products and processes to the >point where he could have consistently reproduced instruments with any >characteristics his customers asked for... and never make a bad one? Of >course the technology was not available then. More than anything else, what made the Strads so exceptional was the very dense wood that was available in original growth forests nearby. It is the same thing that makes Guarnerius axes so desirable. Wood is naturally variable. I don't really see it as a function of technology in that case. There isn't much of that great old wood available anymore. Today the top violin makers look everywhere, sometimes converting antique furniture into violins. There is a fellow who has been rescuing old logs from the bottom of Lake Superior, left over from a harvesting operation a century ago -- original old growth stuff. I think all of the great violin makers would gladly trade the best manufacturing machine for a good stash of great wood. I don't know how this translates to brass making. Maybe it is more practical to apply Demming principles to the art of brass. Personally I have seen organizations doing a "forest versus trees" thing by taking a single minded approach to Demming. Consistency is nice, but what you really want is one great instrument. Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 09:52:51 -0500 From: "McFarland's" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Factory tour Message-ID: <001101c20fc5$557ca040$704a4740@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Raw materials, raw materials, raw materials!! Why do they vary? This is a common problem to all manufacturers. Once you answer this question, you start to solve the problem.... Same "PPU" concepts. It's not new. ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Pliskin To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 1:16 AM Subject: Re: Factory tour > > One problem with not being able to produce a consistent product is that you > can never quite tell if you've improved the product, without producing > enough of the "improved" version, to generate a considerable statistical > sample. > > Without consistency, you also can't tell when your manufacturing process has > been compromised. If you get a bad batch of tubes, you can't tell until > you've produced many instruments, that your process is off. > > DanP > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 09:55:05 -0500 From: "McFarland's" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Factory tour Message-ID: <001701c20fc5$a4b69bc0$704a4740@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But it's a heckuva lot better for the manufacturers (and us) if they figure out how to consistently make an excellent product. ----- Original Message ----- From: Craig Parmerlee To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: Re: Factory tour > At 10:56 PM 6/8/2002 -0500, McFarland's wrote: > >What if Stradivarius could have understood his products and processes to the > >point where he could have consistently reproduced instruments with any > >characteristics his customers asked for... and never make a bad one? Of > >course the technology was not available then. > > More than anything else, what made the Strads so exceptional was the very > dense wood that was available in original growth forests nearby. It is the > same thing that makes Guarnerius axes so desirable. Wood is naturally > variable. I don't really see it as a function of technology in that > case. There isn't much of that great old wood available anymore. Today > the top violin makers look everywhere, sometimes converting antique > furniture into violins. There is a fellow who has been rescuing old logs > from the bottom of Lake Superior, left over from a harvesting operation a > century ago -- original old growth stuff. > > I think all of the great violin makers would gladly trade the best > manufacturing machine for a good stash of great wood. > > I don't know how this translates to brass making. Maybe it is more > practical to apply Demming principles to the art of brass. Personally I > have seen organizations doing a "forest versus trees" thing by taking a > single minded approach to Demming. Consistency is nice, but what you > really want is one great instrument. > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 17:34:19 +0100 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Factory tour Message-ID: <001a01c20fd3$ae14ccb0$e894fc3e@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Craig Parmerlee" > More than anything else, what made the Strads so exceptional was the very > dense wood that was available in original growth forests nearby. There > isn't much of that great old wood available anymore. So that's why modern violins and other string instruments have no sound body, just a cord connecting the fingerboard to an amplifier. That's progress! Couldn't have done that in Strad's day. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 16:51:21 +0000 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Factory tour Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed So that's why modern violins and other string instruments have no sound body, just a cord connecting the fingerboard to an amplifier. That's progress! Couldn't have done that in Strad's day. Adrian, Youâre such a brat. I tried a few modern upright basses, a few months ago and was surprised to find that they sounded more like a fiberglass Boston whaler, going over waves, than like a string bass. Even if I did accept mega-samplers, and the like, will they have anything worth sampling? DanP _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415 Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 10:00:09 -0700 From: emrose79@pacbell.net Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Factory tour Message-ID: <3D038999.DB6622CC@pacbell.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT do you have ANY idea at all, just how much time and effort goes into making one of those things sound exactly like a Boston Whaler, going over waves.....years of research and experimenting....for a long time they could only make a sound like a small row boat........... Daniel Pliskin wrote: > > >So that's why modern violins and other string instruments have no sound > >body, just a cord connecting the fingerboard to an amplifier. That's > >progress! Couldn't have done that in Strad's day. > > Adrian, > > Youâre such a brat. > > I tried a few modern upright basses, a few months ago and was surprised to > find that they sounded more like a fiberglass Boston whaler, going over > waves, than like a string bass. Even if I did accept mega-samplers, and the > like, will they have anything worth sampling? > > DanP > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2415--