TROMBONE-L Digest 2407 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) ITF thoughts by "Bill Stanley" 2) RE: Factory tour by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 3) Re: Thoughts by Gabriel Langfur 4) Re: Factory tour by "D.J. Kennedy" 5) Fw: Factory Tour(Horn Design) by "Elisabeth Frederick" 6) Re: Early jazz "theory" (was Re: what to do with all this theorycrap?) by "David Guion" 7) RE: Factory Tour(Horn Design) by "Jon Moeller" 8) RE: Why do they do it? by Gabriel Langfur 9) Re: what to do with all this theory crap? by David Wilken 10) ITF - thanks for your impressions by "Tom C. Shaddox" 11) More Marching thoughts... by "Jason Akai" 12) Re: Early jazz "theory" (was Re: what to do with all this theory crap?) by "Daniel Pliskin" 13) Re: what to do with all this theory crap? by "Daniel Pliskin" 14) Re: what to do with all this theory crap? by ALFORDMB@aol.com 15) Re: College Marching Band.... by "Rod Ellard" 16) My thoughts on Marching Band... by "Elisabeth Frederick" 17) Re: Concert etiquette / the Coast Guard Band - & Stars & Stripes Bones by ALFORDMB@aol.com 18) Concert etiquette - What about the musicians? by Craig Parmerlee 19) Re: Thoughts by Eric & Candice Swanson 20) Re: Fw: Factory Tour(Horn Design) by Eric & Candice Swanson 21) Re: ITF - thanks for your impressions by "Gary D. Maxwell" 22) Re: Concert etiquette - What about the musicians? by "Joe L. Norcross" 23) Re: Concert etiquette - What about the musicians? by Craig Parmerlee 24) Re: Concert etiquette - What about the musicians? by Earl Needham 25) Re: Concert etiquette - What about the musicians? by Craig Parmerlee 26) poem for the members of bonesapart by "D.J. Kennedy" 27) Re: thoughts by "Elizabeth Lewis" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:05:34 -0600 From: "Bill Stanley" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: ITF thoughts Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C20893.164B8D20" Hi all - Again, as one who has hosted an ITF: I would guess that every host has tried to bring in the media. In 1998 we got some nice pre-Festival write-ups in print media in the Denver-Boulder area. Radio/TV wasn't at all interested. As far as web broadcasting is concerned, there is always the bottom line of the ITF to consider. Losses are seriously frowned upon by the ITA and host institutions. Anything that might cause potential registration paying participants to stay home and watch/listen to the ITF on the computer would need to be carefully considered. In 1998 we did consider a web broadcast, but decided against it for the above financial reasons. While I'm at it, suggestions for artists and groups at future ITFs are always welcome - simply contact the future host(s) or the ITA with your ideas.ÊÊBut, it might be worth looking at rosters of past ITFs before jumping in. For example, Raoul DeSouza was at the 1997 ITF in Illinois (along with a HUGE list of other artists), the Carnegie Hall Jazz Band section was here in Boulder as was J.P. Torres (Cuba). The 1995 Festival in Las Vegas was dedicated to leveling the playing field for female trombonists. Could future hosts do more? You bet. But look at what has been accomplished. Thanks for your time. Bill Stanley Associate Professor of Trombone College of Music University of Colorado at Boulder http://spot.colorado.edu/~stanleyw -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Brian French Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 6:25 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: christian rules in purple on 5/30/02 12:54 PM, D.J. Kennedy at djpens@midwest.net wrote: i would Êencourage Êthe Ênext itf /ita ÊÊproducers ÊÊto Êbring in communication Êand Êmedia Êtypes and Êbring it up a lot ÊÊÊÊÊÊlive Êbroadcast ----sponsorship ÊÊthru Êmulti media Ê---- ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊpbs//npr Ê- Here, here! ÊHear, hear? ÊI've been away for a little while (NOT in Denton), but has anyone mentioned web broadcasting, maybe streaming audio on the ita-web.org? ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 13:45:58 -0400 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: TboneGib@aol.com, TROMBONE-L@po.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: RE: Factory tour Message-ID: <81F62454EA21B94EA95517180D7303730243FB1D@lee-is-102.lee.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C208CB.059E9F20" I envy you. This should be fun. I would suggest you keep in the back of your mind somewhere a focus on two subjects. They are Quality, and Acoustics, for lack of better terms.Ê You aren't going to get good answers about Acoustics, because they either don't know or they aren't going to give up secrets!Ê Quality, on the other hand, they'll probably brag about if they have a clue. By quality, I mean a systematic body of theory about how to consistently produce an excellent product. This is like the music theory discussion going on now, in that there have always been some people who "understood" how to do it at an underlying level without ever being able to explicitly state the concepts. However, again like music, the concepts were there and were making it work. Maybe unlike music, the people who can articulate the concepts of quality management are far more consistent at producing the precise level of quality that they want. I wish you were visiting Yamaha, as well; it would be interesting to hear their philosophy. It has been my experience that companies who have no clue about the principles of quality, who answer the question by "oh, we work really hard," or "we inspect everything" or "I'm responsible and it doesn't go out without my approval" generally do a lousy job in the long run, whatever product or service they are providing.Ê But then ask about how they relate acoustic theory to trombone design. That would probably include dj's question about tubing size for different horn. I don't think you'll get an answer, they'll just say, "Oh, it's an art," and start mumbling. But it is worth a try. Ask if anyone does any research, any mathematical modeling (maybe some BEM), any actual acoustic testing (FFT, RTA), ask if they can recommend a text or papers to learn more. Pick their brains for whatever you can. I for one would be highly interested. I've never talked to a mainstream horn designer in any depth and would love to.Ê -----Original Message----- From: TboneGib@aol.com [mailto:TboneGib@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 4:38 PM To: TROMBONE-L@po.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Factory tour Happy summer everyone...... I have been invited on a tour of trombone factories in June. I will be visiting Conn,Benge,Bach,UMI,Selmer and trying all the latest,greatest toys. Student and pro horns alike. I promise to take copious notes and I have declined sponsorship (for now:-), so that I might write a completely impartial review in an upcoming article. If there are particular instruments you've been curious about, or if you have some questions you'd like to pose to the makers, please let me know. I have a scheduled Q&A at each factory with a trombone rep. and I'd love to pose some tough questions for em. I know what I'm gonna ask, but thought all of you might like to pose a few queries, too. I'll post my review to the list and on the website once it's completed.......... Tom Gibson Brass Dept. Coordinator Georgia State University tbonegib@aol w: 404-651-1740 trombonelessons.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:15:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Thoughts Message-ID: <20020531181543.38859.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- bonearzt@mindspring.com wrote: > Also, it would be refreshing to hear more from the people > who play in the trenches on a day to day basis, not just > the guys with the ultimate orchestral dream jobs. I think that's one of the things I like about this list and the OTJ forum...much more democratic than the ITA can ever be. Valuable as it is, the ITA is limited by its institutional framework and its reliance on the academic world. THIS is where we hear those voices: from Sam, in the commercial/latin/jazz trenches in New York, from myself, freelancing in orchestras (and whoever else calls) all over New England, from Craig P., who seems to play jazz mostly as a professional and classical mostly as a high-level amateur, etc. etc. etc. AND we have Doug Yeo, Randy Campora and others in the full-time orchestras AND dedicated amateurs and many others. Yay trombone-l! Thank you Eric...yay OTJ! thank you Richard! Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 15:12:03 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" To: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Factory tour Message-ID: <3CF7D913.7B027034@midwest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E8CA8B7B2AFC8B984FB39212" in the beginnings vincent bach tried many many small batches of alloys --- french brass for example ----and many different mandrels especially in the trumpets ---- the model 4 trombone --bill watrous mentioned someone playing one recently in slide hamptons -world of trombones - the model 6 went thru many changes --i have a 413 mandrell bell i believe the bell mandrell 431 is now the standard dimension for models 6,8,12,16 with the exception of the later 16mlt bell --these bells seem to be dimensionally identical -----where as there were diameter differences thru the mount vernon era -----the new bells are far from identical in character -and the new horns i tested at the bach booth were all great with the exception of the model 6 -- ---right now i am making a slide stand out of a heavy drum gear triiipod to hold 6 8 12 16 16m and 36 slides --as they all interchange -- ------------------------------------------------------------ the more people touch the product the greater the variable factor which is why yamaha plasma weld and hi tech spinning yields a very consistant product --- look down an old conn 6h or ny 67 bell and see the ripples --- sam burtis beautiful shires ---gleamed in the sun almost as bright as his eyes accoustics ----violins ---- richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL wrote: I envy you. This should be fun. I would suggest you keep in the back of your mind somewhere a focus on two subjects. They are Quality, and Acoustics, for lack of better terms. You aren't going to get good answers about Acoustics, because they either don't know or they aren't going to give up secrets! Quality, on the other hand, they'll probably brag about if they have a clue. By quality, I mean a systematic body of theory about how to consistently produce an excellent product. This is like the music theory discussion going on now, in that there have always been some people who "understood" how to do it at an underlying level without ever being able to explicitly state the concepts. However, again like music, the concepts were there and were making it work. Maybe unlike music, the people who can articulate the concepts of quality management are far more consistent at producing the precise level of quality that they want. I wish you were visiting Yamaha, as well; it would be interesting to hear their philosophy. It has been my experience that companies who have no clue about the principles of quality, who answer the question by "oh, we work really hard," or "we inspect everything" or "I'm responsible and it doesn't go out without my approval" generally do a lousy job in the long run, whatever product or service they are providing. But then ask about how they relate acoustic theory to trombone design. That would probably include dj's question about tubing size for different horn. I don't think you'll get an answer, they'll just say, "Oh, it's an art," and start mumbling. But it is worth a try. Ask if anyone does any research, any mathematical modeling (maybe some BEM), any actual acoustic testing (FFT, RTA), ask if they can recommend a text or papers to learn more. Pick their brains for whatever you can. I for one would be highly interested. I've never talked to a mainstream horn designer in any depth and would love to. -----Original Message----- From: TboneGib@aol.com [mailto:TboneGib@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 4:38 PM To: TROMBONE-L@po.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Factory tour Happy summer everyone...... I have been invited on a tour of trombone factories in June. I will be visiting Conn,Benge,Bach,UMI,Selmer and trying all the latest,greatest toys. Student and pro horns alike. I promise to take copious notes and I have declined sponsorship (for now:-), so that I might write a completely impartial review in an upcoming article. If there are particular instruments you've been curious about, or if you have some questions you'd like to pose to the makers, please let me know. I have a scheduled Q&A at each factory with a trombone rep. and I'd love to pose some tough questions for em. I know what I'm gonna ask, but thought all of you might like to pose a few queries, too. I'll post my review to the list and on the website once it's completed.......... Tom Gibson Brass Dept. Coordinator Georgia State University tbonegib@aol w: 404-651-1740 trombonelessons.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:22:36 -0700 From: "Elisabeth Frederick" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Fw: Factory Tour(Horn Design) Message-ID: <006c01c208d0$24972460$5872fb3f@d9h2z9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this didn't go through... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elisabeth Frederick" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 11:04 AM Subject: Factory Tour(Horn Design) > How do people become instrument designers? I would doubt that its just an > entry level job and I've never noticed any college degrees in either repair > or design...I have seen piano tunig and repair...... > > Liz > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:30:51 -0700 From: "David Guion" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." , Subject: Re: Early jazz "theory" (was Re: what to do with all this theorycrap?) Message-ID: <200205311130.AA31785252@trombone.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sam Burtis ended an important treatise with the following comment: > I hope this opens up a few ideas here. (I gotta write a book...I >HATE this myopic view of "jazz history"...New Orleans, came up the >river to Chicago, made a right and went to NY...what a crock.) > This brings up something I have been quietly wondering about lately. In the years before the Civil War, one of the leading society bands was all black and led by Francis Johnson. I have a recording of some of the music his band played. It has been a long time since I read the liner notes, but I think the time frame is 1830s and 1840s. Johnson's was the first American band to tour Europe and, if I recall correctly, played a command performance for Queen Victoria. The written arrangements that survive are of the same general styles that were common at the time on both sides of the Atlantic. Musard in Paris and Lanner in Vienna ran similar bands that played similar music to a similar clientele, that is, dance and entertainment music that was not considered high art. It is only now being rediscovered and appreciated. (I can remember when it was a live issue whether university curricula should acknowledge popular culture. Now that the question has been answered in the affirmative, it does no good to limit the study of popular culture to that within living memory. Most of the most interesting history of the trombone is the popular culture part.) One of the things that makes Francis Johnson so fascinating is that he played gigs for white and other gigs for blacks, and there are some cryptic references to differences in performance practice, especially the way his band played rhythms for black audiences. It's apparently impossible to reconstruct just what he did, because the references are so vague. But maybe all those quadrilles, quick-steps, waltzes, etc. played with some kind of syncopation and/or unequal division of the beat (swing?) would be recognizably jazz! In the 1830s and 1840s! You can bet there are scholars looking into this kind of question, although I don't know off hand just who they are. A couple more random thoughts and I'm through for now. First, the music on that CD has two pieces in 5/4 time, making Johnson or another black composer of the same generation the earliest I know of to use that meter throughout a piece. (Please note how carefully that's hedged. I don't pretend to know much about any of the bands of that era.) Second, of the dictionary definitions of "theory" that Sam quoted, the third is the most relevant to music. That is, the general, abstract principles of music. Everyone who can play or compose music has to know theory. Some study it formally in an academic environment. Some study it less formally from more experienced mentors, sort of like an apprenticeship. Some just reinvent the wheel on their own. I would thing that the more or less formal study would be the most efficient way both of learning it and figuring out what to do with it. But as I said before, it takes time and effort to get it from your brain to your chops and fingers. -- *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* David Guion "Television is a medium, so-called because it is neither rare nor well done."--Ernie Kovacs david@trombone.org *^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* -- ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 13:34:41 -0500 From: "Jon Moeller" To: Subject: RE: Factory Tour(Horn Design) Message-ID: <000601c208d1$d43cb2d0$310fa8c0@jon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I suspect its more of an apprenticeship type deal, like a family business passed from father to son -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Elisabeth Frederick Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 1:23 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Fw: Factory Tour(Horn Design) this didn't go through... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elisabeth Frederick" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 11:04 AM Subject: Factory Tour(Horn Design) > How do people become instrument designers? I would doubt that its just an > entry level job and I've never noticed any college degrees in either repair > or design...I have seen piano tunig and repair...... > > Liz > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:42:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Why do they do it? Message-ID: <20020531184210.65169.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Craig Parmerlee wrote: > I've never participated in an audition for a major > orchestra. I'm curious > what proportion of emphasis the audition panel usually > puts on the > blastissimo excerpts as opposed to the more gentlemanly > role of the > instrument. Every audition I've ever taken or participated in asked for both loud and soft excerpts. In general, committees also want to hear both low and high playing, as well as legato, marcato and staccato styles. It's all vital, and I think it's safe to say that, most of the time, auditions are won by the player that best demonstrated the ability to do everything well, with no particular aspect lacking. They want to hear delicacy AND the capacity for great power. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 11:18:13 -0600 From: David Wilken To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: what to do with all this theory crap? Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 5/31/02 3:45 AM, "Adrian Drover" wrote: > Ah, you spotted some of the exceptions to the rule. What about all those > guys who could not afford college fees or lessons and had to make do with > beaten up ex-civil war military horns? Was it not they who invented jazz? I think that we have a tendency to focus on and remember better those colorful cases who didn't read music. Although early jazz artists probably didn't read music (they didn't need to with the stylistic approach they were playing), once the swing era came around it became more necessary for jazz musicians to learn to read. There are also many exceptions to this rule as well, but I think they are exceptions. Furthermore, one does not need a college degree or ever have to study music formally to know theory. And what does playing on an old instrument have to do with an individual's knowledge of how music is put together? Give me a beat up trombone and I'll still know how to play a major triad. We tend to forget that even though many of the innovators of jazz, even early jazz, often (perhaps typically) learned under a sort of apprenticeship system in their formative years. They would play with older and more experienced musicians who would show them the ropes, at the very least by their example. The fact that many of them couldn't read music and picked up these things by ear is irrelevant. It is also irrelevant that many of these musicians didn't have names for what they were doing, but they knew how to do it. If you learn to play a major triad by ear, you've still learned a major triad, regardless of what you call it or don't call it. Once you've learned to transpose that triad into another key your putting music theory to use. > Better still, did dem African slaves bring deir theory books wid dem to de > New World? Of course not, but certainly African music styles have an organizational concept which can be (and has been) written down. The fact that African music and early jazz style were developed and passed on in an aural (or oral) tradition makes no difference. There absolutely is a music theory system for these styles. Whether you learn it by ear and never put names to it or learn it from a book and practice applying it makes little difference. If you doubt that there is a theoretical structure which is applied to African music you may want to check out the following URL, which has a number of interesting articles regarding African music. http://echarry.web.wesleyan.edu/africother.html We often forget that in most cases, musical terms and theoretical concepts are codified after they have been invented and applied in performance. The fact that an early jazz trombonist played a major triad without understanding that that was what it was called doesn't negate the fact, however, that he played a major triad. Later on, someone figured out what was played, and wrote down how traditional jazz musicians played. Today we can learn from these writings and use them to learn for ourselves. It is HOW these theoretical concepts are applied, not how they are learned, that is important. Do many inexperienced improvisers place too much emphasis on learning music theory and not enough on using their ears? Absolutely. The opposite is also true. Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages. They are not mutually exclusive, either. Strong ability in one approach will help the other, if you put everything in the proper perspective. Eventually you want to end up somewhere in between the two approaches, perhaps leaning towards one side or another. Ignoring one approach because of a mistaken belief that "that's not how it was created" is not only detrimental to your growth as a musician, but also just plain lazy. The musical scene is completely different today than it was in those romantic early days of jazz. When jazz was a younger, and less codified art form, there were many more playing opportunities available to a young musician where he or she could come in direct contact with older and more experienced musicians. Today those same opportunities don't exist in the same frequency, so we have jazz education instead. If a student can't learn how to play jazz on the bandstand and in jam sessions now-a-days colleges and universities may be the next best way to learn some of the same things. The question really isn't whether or not it's important to learn music theory, but how you go about learning it and applying it. Do you learn it from a book or do you listen and transcribe by ear? Do you consciously practice applying certain theoretical concepts when improvising or do you let them happen of their own accord? No one can answer this question precisely for you, since the way you learn, retain, and apply musical information is unique to you. What seems to work best for other players may not be the best approach for you. If you don't give an approach a serious effort (and serious effort can take years of practice), you will never know. > Now what was it Satchmo said to the interviewer who asked "What is Jazz?"? What do you suppose would have been Armstrong's response if he was asked, "What are the chord changes to a standard 12 bar blues?" Do you think his reply would have been, "If you have to ask, you'll never know?" One question is asking Pops to define a musical style which is illusive at best, and impossible to codify in probably most instances. The other is asking "What do you do with all this theory crap?" Dave P.S. After writing the above message I skipped ahead and read what others have already posted regarding this topic. Some interesting stuff here! P.P.S. I will be leaving my home base for a little while, and will be postponing my subscription while I'm gone. If this topic is still kicking around when I get back I'd be happy to publicly respond to this post. If you want a guaranteed reply you will have to e-mail me personally and I will get around to in later. -- David Wilken dave@trombone.org http://faculty.adams.edu/~dmwilken ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 14:16:42 -0500 From: "Tom C. Shaddox" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: ITF - thanks for your impressions Message-ID: <3CF7CC1A.1C7621D3@fnc.fujitsu.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd been looking forward to the ITF for months, and it was right in my back yard. My grandmother passed away early last Friday morning, however, and I was unable to attend. (Sensitive folks that you are, you'll probably want to email me condolences. Thanks, that's really sweet. I'd be even more impressed if you'd use the same time to email your still living parents and grandparents.) Anyway, I just wanted to thank all of you that have taken the time to post your thoughts and impressions of the ITF - and if anyone is still sitting on the fence about posting their take on the festival, hey, jump in there! I for one would like to hear what you have to say. BTW, one of my sectionmates was able to go, and FWIW she came home with a brand-spanking-new open wrap 88H. She let me toot on it - schweeeet ax - and now I'm having fantasies about using one as the starting point for a Charlesworth Special. In other news, the band had a concert last night at the city senior center. The regular MC couldn't come, so the band turned to their jack of all trades, master of the key of Eb, 9th chair trombonist to fill in: http://www.texw.net/pcb/scc/ Aiming for Arthur Pryor, hitting Ralph Corey*, Tom Shaddox 9th chair tenor *Bonus points for knowing who trombonist Ralph Corey was. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 19:22:51 +0000 From: "Jason Akai" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: More Marching thoughts... Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Most of my musical experience with marching bands came in High School. At Marian Catholic HS in Chicago Heights, Il, the marching band played things most people that age can't play sitting down. While I was there, we played School for Scandal, Barber Pie Jesu, Lloyd Webber Gloria, Mvt 2 and 3, Rutter Music from the Motion Picture "Henry V", by Doyle The Lord of the Rings, deMeji (that was 1991, we played it in concert in 1990 - the first HS band (maybe first band period) to play it in the states) Gavornka Fanfare (writer escapes me...) Candide: Overture and Make our Garden grow, Bernstein We would warm up to Almighty Father, from Berstein's Mass. The truth is, musically, there has never been a band I have been in (Im not counting Orchestras) that could touch the musicality, beauty, or power that the MCHS band could on the field. I graduated almost 10 years ago and am still looking for an ensemble to come close to that. Marching is such an incredible way to become part of the music - not just playing it. You are a living moving part of the music that is being played. It taught the value of practicing, breathing, subdividing (your feet did most of the work), playing with difficult conditions - it was really incredible. Our band marched bass clarinets, Bas trombones (me) and tenor/bari-saxes. All music and Drill were written by our director, Greg Bimm. Our story was not unique - there are plenty of incredible bands at that level who are playing out of their minds - and becoming incredible players. In College, the focus was more on the crowd. So we played easy crap, and did easy moves. But, the dedication, family atmosphere, and work ethic was still there. I played Tuba then (more visable, and actually less work than trombone. So, no I didnt goto college for marching band, but I also wasnt so blind as to not see what it had to offer me as a player. Thats all Ciao Jason "Always seemingly in the 'Second' World as a Bass Tbone" Akai _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 20:27:51 +0000 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Early jazz "theory" (was Re: what to do with all this theory crap?) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Do you think they just stopped singing? Stopped playing their rhythms? Stopped dancing? They had voices; they had feet; they had hands...just like their cooks cooked and their teachers taught, their musicians played. Bet on it. Linguists claim that the ãnon-Englishä syntax, used by many blacks in this country, today, is identical to the syntax of several West African languages. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 20:40:52 +0000 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: what to do with all this theory crap? Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I think that we have a tendency to focus on and remember better those colorful cases who didn't read music. Although early jazz artists probably didn't read music (they didn't need to with the stylistic approach they were playing) Iâd actually believe that most early jazz musicians DID read music. There were no radios, no TVs and no records. People read music that they bought at sheet music stores. And lots of musicians made their living playing sheet music, at those sheet music stores. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 22:15:04 EDT From: ALFORDMB@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: what to do with all this theory crap? Message-ID: <3e.1f012b1c.2a298828@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/31/2002 3:05:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dave@trombone.org writes: > We often forget that in most cases, musical terms and theoretical concepts > are codified after they have been invented and applied in performance. The > fact that an early jazz trombonist played a major triad without > understanding that that was what it was called doesn't negate the fact, > however, that he played a major triad. Later on, someone figured out what > was played, and wrote down how traditional jazz musicians played. Today we > can learn from these writings and use them to learn for ourselves. This, in fact, according to more than one source that got my attention in the past, was Dizzy Gillespie's great talent - writing out and teaching what his be-bop colleagues were playing. He is supposed to have been very gifted at hearing and interpreting, and passing along, during the early stages of be-bop development. It is my impression from talking with musicians over the years that, nowadays anyway, jazz performers use and apply 'theory' to much greater degree in daily performances than what is required of 'classical' performers. Not a put down at all. 'Theory" is all down on the page for classical performers. they may know theory inside and out, but that part has all been worked out by the composer. I know very accomplished pianists who have played all their life, but can't tell you the first thing about music theory. They have memorized scales and can sight read every speck on the page but can't identify a chord by name or spot a progression. Maye this is where a question like the subject line of this thread comes from. Personally, I'm not heavy on theory knowledge but I studied theory with a teacher for a time, and have found it an enormous help in my appreciation and enjoyment of music. And with that comes an appetite to learn more, which in turn results in more enjoyment and appreciation. Music is great. You can spend a lifetime studying, playing, and learning, and never have your appetite satiated. Or, with no training and ability on an instrument whatsoever, you can simply sit back and let other people play for your enjoyment. Just some thoughts. Mike Alford ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 19:57:56 -0700 From: "Rod Ellard" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: College Marching Band.... Message-ID: <003001c20918$22c8df50$61cffea9@rodcomp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Being in a marching band as a kid hasn't proved to be of much use in adult life. Rod ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 7:28 AM Subject: Re: College Marching Band.... > I was a bass trombone performance major and I specifically chose the music > school I attended because: A) There was a great trombone teacher there, and > B) There was NO MARCHING BAND. After three years of high school and two > years of junior high I had as much of the experience as I cared for. I doubt > that I would have gained anything useful had I attended a school known for > great marching bands. > > > Matt Varho > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 20:03:03 -0700 From: "Elisabeth Frederick" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: My thoughts on Marching Band... Message-ID: <000f01c20918$d9f56b80$ef72fb3f@d9h2z9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you everyone for your opinions/experiences, this is what I have come up with.... I know that I will need to work while I am going to school, or else I won't have any money to do anything. I would like to be able to see the occasional movie etc etc. I also am going to be changing from the semester system to the quarter system...... SO, I've decided that even though marching band would be a lot of fun, it probably isn't the best idea for my first semester at UCLA. So, I will see how everything works out and from there decide if I'm going to do marching band. Thanks again! Liz ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 23:30:09 EDT From: ALFORDMB@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Concert etiquette / the Coast Guard Band - & Stars & Stripes Bones Message-ID: <16b.e70da14.2a2999c1@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 05/30/2002 3:11:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL writes: > Great idea, listening to how it was done back then. > > I admit I hadn't thought of the historical authenticity argument, let us > know what you find. I could probably be convinced. (although I lost the > last Sousa historical authenticity argument) > > Here's what I'll bet you find. > > Let me restate the problem. The notes are written slurred, most bands seem > to play them smeared (glissed) even though they are unison with the tubas > and euphoniums. Well, I have listened to 13 bands play S&SF, including Sousa's band of circa 1925. (No, Adrian, I didn't listen to all of them all the way through, nor did I listen to them all consecutively, and although I was in my underwear, the color(s) shall go nameless, and moreover, said wear remained covered by outerwear.) Now, that aside, nine of the bands, including Sousa's, very definitely smear the part in question. In some cases though - recording hall acoustics maybe? - It sounds like they are all smearing. Bands that clearly smear: US Army, US Marine (Bourgeois cond.), US Coast Guard, Detroit Concert B (Smith), The Wallace Collection (British, 1988), The Goldman Band ( ca. 1950), Band of America (Lavalle, 1953), Sousa, and Eastman Wind Ensemble (Fennell, 1956). EWE under Hunsberger was "iffy" but I came down on the slur side. Others judged on the slur side, were The Nonpareil Wind Band (Foley cond., 1990), Cleveland Symphonic Winds (Fennell, 1978), and University of Michigan (Reynolds, no date). Thus stands my report: 9 smears, 4 slurs. Oldest recordings all are on the smear side. I should say that the examples I heard as slurs were not easily identified so. I had to listen a couple of times and concentrate - is it, or isn't it. Two possible reasons for this perhaps: 1. room acoustics or recording quirks that maybe cover up subtle slurs. 2. relative power between the trombone section and other low brasses. If this be the case, then they all could have been smears, but in some cases overpowered by the tuba/euphonium tribes, the slurs thus carrying the day. Hey, it was fun. Go ahead and have your laugh. S&SF is not my favorite but when you do something like this you can really pick out some differences between all the bands. Sousa's, by the way, is a very spirited rendition. I hadn't listen to it in years but enjoyed it thoroughly this morning. Here's an amateur's thought (not even an opinion) on your Thunderer question. I assume you are referring to the "bugle" strain, which comes from Sousa's Trumpet and Drum March No. 5, "Here's Your Health, Sir!". (Same situation for Semper Fidelis, which is from T & D March No. 6, "With Steady Step"). The field trumpeter is naturally limited to playing the partials but seems to me, once you bring it into the band and give the part to the trumpet/cornet, you are going to play it by the notes, or in tune as you say. But isn't the field trumpet pitched in Bb same as trumpets in the band? Does that mean that the part would be normally played all open keys anyway? I'm out of my territory on this I guess. But I'll leave it there. Mike Alford ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 00:22:37 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Concert etiquette - What about the musicians? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020601000730.00b759a0@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed There's been a bit of discussion about how sinful it is or isn't for the audience to: A) clap between movements B) give standing ovations gratuitously Hey, they are paying the bills. People that buy tickets to the basketball game are entitled to scream at the refs. No difference here, I think. I hope it doesn't become commonplace for audiences to start whistling during pieces they don't like, but it is their right IMHO. But what about the etiquette of the musicians? From where I sit, the musicians are much more disrespectful than any audience I have seen. Here are some things I see a lot: 1) musicians talking while the maestro is speaking to the audience 2) musicians previewing their big solo lines on stage at full volume 10 minutes before the concert 3) musicians flipping their music as soon as they have played their last measure in a piece (there will be plenty of time to flip the &^$# page before the next piece is started. Not only is that visually distracting to the audience, it is downright insulting to the fellow musicians who are still playing.) 4) musicians not smiling to the audience when taking bows. Would it kill anybody to stand proudly with their instrument in hand and actually look at the audience with an appreciative smile? To me, these actions are extremely disrespectful to an audience who has given up an evening and maybe a pocketful of money to hear a performance. Yet, these acts of rudeness seem to happen just about everywhere I can see from my window on the world. Amateurs, professionals -- I don't notice a difference. Don't they teach musical manners anymore? Just wondering. Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 00:25:52 -0500 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Thoughts Message-ID: <3CF85AE0.D03D4FE8@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > --- bonearzt@mindspring.com wrote: > > Also, it would be refreshing to hear more from the people > > who play in the trenches on a day to day basis, not just > > the guys with the ultimate orchestral dream jobs. I went to a panel discussion that included Bill Reichenbach, Tom Malone, John Swallow, and Chuck Mandernach. These guys are some of your trenches players. I think they've probably all played every kind of gig you can possibly imagine, and a bunch you couldn't even imagine. I've known Chuck for many years, and believe me, he plays it all. He was in the Dallas Symphony for a few years, but the rest of his career has been freelancing, doing some of the best and worst gigs out there. These guys had some good things to say about making it as a freelancer, and every young trombone player at the ITF should have been there to hear it. Unfortunately, not that many of them were there, which is typical of the young players out there today. Now I'll shut up and go back to my trench, Eric Swanson ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 00:44:37 -0500 From: Eric & Candice Swanson Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Fw: Factory Tour(Horn Design) Message-ID: <3CF85F45.E913A7F5@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-2; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elisabeth Frederick wrote: > > How do people become instrument designers? I would doubt that its just an > > entry level job and I've never noticed any college degrees in either > > repair or design... Liz, There are a few places you can go get a two year degree in instrument repair. If you're really interested I could track a couple down, or maybe some of the other guys know off hand. I think apprenticing may be the best way to go to learn the trade. Some of the designers started off as repair technicians and customizers and then got into designing horns for the various companies. The guy who used to have the job at Bach started out working summers at the factory and worked his way up. A background in engineering and acoustics would be helpful. I have seen that Yamaha has some internship programs you might check into. They're not specifically in instrument design, but if you could get a job in the factory, you might have a foot in the door. Good luck, Eric Swanson ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 23:42:15 -0700 From: "Gary D. Maxwell" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: ITF - thanks for your impressions Message-ID: <001201c20937$7b2b9420$a3525d3f@garymaxwell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Tom C. Shaddox" > I'd been looking forward to the ITF for months, and it was right in my > back yard. My grandmother passed away early last Friday morning, > however, and I was unable to attend. (Sensitive folks that you are, > you'll probably want to email me condolences. Thanks, that's really > sweet. I'd be even more impressed if you'd use the same time to email > your still living parents and grandparents. ============================================================================ You're absolutely right Tom! I buried my Dad on April 30. Now all I have is a Sister and a "Head Injured" Brother. Spending a lot of time on the phone with my Bro, to be sure. ============================================================================ > Aiming for Arthur Pryor, hitting Ralph Corey*, ============================================================================ Bet he was a lot better than Ralph Cramden. And there are your bonus points. Condolences to you, and all the best. Gary Maxwell ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 08:01:28 -0700 From: "Joe L. Norcross" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Concert etiquette - What about the musicians? Message-ID: <003801c2097d$3793f2c0$65dbaec7@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Parmerlee" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 10:22 PM Subject: Concert etiquette - What about the musicians? SNIP Hey, they are paying the bills. People that buy tickets to the basketball game are entitled to scream at the refs Craig Does this mean we can yell at the conductor things like, You're to slow, fast loud, soft. Can't you play music.? Joe L. Norcross Tuba: Visalia CA Sequoia Winds Bass Trombone: Clovis CA Community Band Tuba and Announcer: Kingsburg CA City Band joetuba@lightspeed.net ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 09:17:45 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Concert etiquette - What about the musicians? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020601091659.01e6f3e0@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:01 AM 6/1/2002 -0700, Joe L. Norcross wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Parmerlee" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 10:22 PM Subject: Concert etiquette - What about the musicians? SNIP Hey, they are paying the bills. People that buy tickets to the basketball game are entitled to scream at the refs Craig Does this mean we can yell at the conductor things like, You're to slow, fast loud, soft. Can't you play music.? The possibilities are endless. I really think I'm onto something here. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 08:24:29 -0600 From: Earl Needham To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Concert etiquette - What about the musicians? Message-ID: <4.2.2.20020601082403.00fb1138@pop3.norton.antivirus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:22 AM 6/1/2002 -0500, Craig Parmerlee wrote: There's been a bit of discussion about how sinful it is or isn't for the audience to: A) clap between movements B) give standing ovations gratuitously Hey, they are paying the bills. People that buy tickets to the basketball game are entitled to scream at the refs. I've seen people thrown out of baseball games for similar antics. Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk KD5XB-2>APW251,PCSAT-1*:=3425.83N/10313.55W-PHG7150/WinAPRS 2.5.1 -EARL_CLOVIS -251-<630> Did you get a letter from Nigeria offering a "deal"? See http://home.rica.net/alphae/419coal/ and http://www.crimes-of-persuasion.com/Crimes/Business/nigerian.htm ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 09:43:05 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Concert etiquette - What about the musicians? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020601094044.01edba78@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:24 AM 6/1/2002 -0600, needhame@yucca.net wrote: At 12:22 AM 6/1/2002 -0500, Craig Parmerlee wrote: There's been a bit of discussion about how sinful it is or isn't for the audience to: A) clap between movements B) give standing ovations gratuitously Hey, they are paying the bills. People that buy tickets to the basketball game are entitled to scream at the refs. I've seen people thrown out of baseball games for similar antics. They're taking all the fun out of life. :) Seriously, a lot of these pro basketball games are like attending a funeral these days. The tickets are so expensive that the "rowdy sports fan" can't afford to attend very often. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 12:32:08 -0500 From: "D.J. Kennedy" To: "tltltltltltltl forum." Subject: poem for the members of bonesapart Message-ID: <3CF90518.449953C3@midwest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: greetings from a hick in the usa////midwest to bonesapart// > Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 11:41:16 -0500 > From: "D.J. Kennedy" > To: bonesapart@hotmail.com, joshbassbone Brown , > tlist , > crobin Carnahan , skif home , > spud , Lu lu Pop , > "LButts9088@aol.com" , > tenorhorn , > "BruceAlanSmith@cs.com" , > "Brookmusic@aol.com" , > urbie Garcia , kelly Kelley , > mozart , > noodle doodle Barlow , > livett Livett , > pander Anderson , > "MARCOFLEX@aol.com" , > eeearly Anderson , > tiny tim Bryson , > mkoc00 , > "sspaulding@mail.plymouth.edu" , > 3bjulie harnois , > 2bbenhawes Hawes , tcr@trombones.co.cr, > jazz@penders.com, chops > > who wants to see an all girl group ??????????? > uuuuuuuuuuggggggg > prolly a buncha diesel dykes in flannel shirts on steroids all > playing contras > hey -they are from england !!! > wow you mean a byrd bone group ????? > super --babes w bones ---oooooooo whens the show ??? > ooooolook at the skin on that bass bone babe -man she sure blows > how about that redhead ----cool hair style -her tone is > definitely crisp > look a shy one ----- > not for long -hear that lead out --- > dig the blond --whats she playing a peashooter ?? > i dunno but its sure bright --great snap --nice vibrato > -------------------------- > i think im in luvvvvvvvv oooooooooxxxxxxxxxxxx0000000xxxxxxx > ------------------------------------------------------------ > they sureplay lots of jazz !!!![besides the usual trendy trad] > and thepadded mute stands --and lots of mute changes matching mutes > ---very cool > their show must be choreographed ---i bet they practiced those > bows > with a theatre coach --top notch -- > each one gets to talk -but i cant understand a word that thebass > boner says > maybe if she talked faster ?????she could get a job as an auctioneer > -------------------------------------- > the white outfits --fabulous !!!----oh i goot get some pics -i > think nina is going to want to put them in couture !!!--who is their > agent ??? > how about some accessories ???---- > i dunno ---love the perfume !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > i see the video now -each song recorded at a historic place - > i church so many to choose from -- > shakespearean outfits -- > stonehenge -in rugged scotch gear > playing patriotis songs ---lord nelson statue ---------------post > cards ----- > all in white aboard ship ---- > touring in a long wheel base hooperbody rolls -- > ----admidst flowers and fragrant blossoms > sunny hours and wet tears of misty moments > the love of friends playing together > seen in reflections on one texas night > as the jazz played > three shining faces as > one glowed in the solo spotlight > > the greatest treasure is admiration and support of friends in using > ones talents > > i did not mean to be a pest -but to help break the ice for you > --- > in the social realm---the goddesses are unapproachable for some > but having worshipped them in many ways > -----find ways to love and be loved in return --- > the flower draws the bee and thebutterfly ----- > > to finish the drawing ---i need some help --eye colors as you wish > to be > immortalized > i know how busy you all must be answering all the inquiries for > jobs and > e mails from fans in euro and from the us show > joshua brown wants to put the drawing[s] on the web site > ---------------------- > everone is also curious about your equipment --you know horns and > mouthpieces > ------------------------------------------ > gotta hang up laundry --that linen and silk cynthia ashby > jacket -ooooit was cold in the > concert hall --but you girls sure heated it up > ------------------ > presented on behalf of > chester hill studios ///kennedy foundation > production and career consultant > fashion design and fine arts ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407 Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 10:54:44 -0500 From: "Elizabeth Lewis" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: thoughts Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was at the free-lancing panel discussion at the itf too.. It was great. As a college student, I really wish the kind of stuff they talked about was taught more in schools. All the schools seem to be trying to train everyone (jazz majors excluded) solely for an orchestral position, which is a bit unrealistic and impractical. Maybe this is because most schools just hire retired orchestral players to their faculty, or most students just assume they'll get a job in orchestra. But I really appreciate the perspective the panel offered. Beth Lewis ________________________________________________________ Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get a 25MB Inbox, POP3 Access, No Ads and No Taglines with LYCOS MAIL PLUS. http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2407--