TROMBONE-L Digest 2350 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: F.A.R.T. by "Michael and Dava Millar" 2) Re: F.A.R.T as related to Arnold Jacobs buzz aid by Galen Zinn 3) RE: F.A.R.T by "Gary Maxwell" 4) Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb by Galen Zinn 5) Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb by Craig Parmerlee 6) Re: Sharp King 3B's. by ALFORDMB@aol.com 7) Nick Hudson Concert by "Cooper" 8) RE: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb by "Gary Greenhoe" 9) Re: [TL]RE: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb by Galen Zinn 10) Re: [TL]RE: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb by "Brennan Arceneaux" 11) ULM Jazz concert with guest Harry Watters by "Steve Cagle" 12) Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb by BassBonist@aol.com 13) Re: F.A.R.T. by BassBonist@aol.com 14) Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb by "Aaron Roth" 15) Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb by "Adrian Drover" 16) RE: Nemetz and alto trombone in Beethoven.... by Howard Weiner 17) Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb by "Aaron Roth" 18) Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb by "Adrian Drover" 19) RE: 3B by "Jon Moeller" 20) Things that really tick me off. by "Jon Moeller" 21) RE: Nemetz and alto trombone in Beethoven - and alto design by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 22) Re: [TL]Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb by Galen Zinn 23) Re: [TL]RE: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb by Galen Zinn 24) Summer music job opening by Douglas Yeo 25) RE: [TL]RE: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb by "Edward Solomon" 26) Re: Things that really tick me off. by "Daniel Pliskin" 27) Re: [TL]RE: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb by "Steve Beck" 28) alto design by "Daniel Pliskin" 29) Re: [TL]Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb by "Daniel Pliskin" 30) Band & Choral Arrangements Available by Lawrence Zaidan ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 10:19:11 -0800 From: "Michael and Dava Millar" To: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: F.A.R.T. Message-ID: <002101c1dc05$391af620$4898b3d1@themilla> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Jeff Reynolds version of this item is a bit shorter, 4 to 6 inches. It is actually 2 or 3 tubes fitting together, each additional tube being of a smaller bore size than the previous one. The diminishing bore size seems (to me) to provide a little more resistance and a better focus than a straight tube or leadpipe. Works for me. Michael Millar ============================================= Michael W. Millar, D.M.A. Dava S. Millar, R.N., M.B.A. 25430 Via Impreso Valencia, CA, 91355 (818) 901-6843 FAX (661) 253-2999 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 6:45 AM Subject: Re: F.A.R.T. > > On Thu, 4 Apr 2002, Douglas Yeo wrote: > > > "Mastering the Trombone." A F.A.R.T. (Forced Air Resistance Tube) is > > simply a piece of 6-8" long one-half inch inner diameter rubber hose > > you put on the end of of our mouthpiece to give you some resistance > > with buzzing. I've been using one for over 25 years, long before the > > Bill Adam students buy a separate leadpipe for that purpose, more > expensive than the hose, for sure. > > Carole Nowicke > cnowicke@indiana.edu > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 10:51:44 -0800 From: Galen Zinn To: Michael and Dava Millar , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: F.A.R.T as related to Arnold Jacobs buzz aid Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 4/4/02 10:19 AM, quoth Michael and Dava Millar > The Jeff Reynolds version of this item is a bit shorter, 4 to 6 inches. It > is actually 2 or 3 tubes fitting together, each additional tube being of a > smaller bore size than the previous one. The diminishing bore size seems (to > me) to provide a little more resistance and a better focus than a straight > tube or leadpipe. Works for me. > > Michael Millar > ============================================= > Michael W. Millar, D.M.A. > Dava S. Millar, R.N., M.B.A. > 25430 Via Impreso > Valencia, CA, 91355 > (818) 901-6843 > FAX (661) 253-2999 You might want to investigate the Arnold Jacobs buzz aid which is sold at the following website: http://www.windsongpress.com/index.htm I have found it to be very useful, although I did decide to make a slight design substitution (different parts) after I received it. I feel that I have made it easier to adjust the resistance, and that what ever adjustment you chose will stay in place until you decide to change it. My 3¢ Worth, Galen Zinn E-mail: zinger@musician.org ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:07:12 -0800 From: "Gary Maxwell" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: F.A.R.T Message-ID: <659829993461CA49942D1312DE343691830A18@edcenmail1.bcsd.k12.ca.us> content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1DC0B.ED60A4A0" I guess I might as well get into the fray. List member Randy Fendrick, sometime back, reported that he uses a length of PVC piping, about the length of a normal leadpipe. (9" - 11"?) He has a 1/16" to 1/8" hole drlled approximately at the end of the mouthpiece when inserted into the pipe. This is very light, very handy, and very successful for him. .02 Gary Maxwell Bass Trombone Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra ============================================================ -----Original Message----- From: Galen Zinn [mailto:grzinn@ca.astound.net] Sent: Thu 4/4/2002 10:51 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Cc:ÊÊÊÊ Subject: Re: F.A.R.T as related to Arnold Jacobs buzz aid On 4/4/02 10:19 AM, quoth Michael and Dava Millar > The Jeff Reynolds version of this item is a bit shorter, 4 to 6 inches. It > is actually 2 or 3 tubes fitting together, each additional tube being of a > smaller bore size than the previous one. The diminishing bore size seems (to > me) to provide a little more resistance and a better focus than a straight > tube or leadpipe. Works for me. > > Michael Millar > ============================================= > Michael W. Millar, D.M.A. > Dava S. Millar, R.N., M.B.A. > 25430 Via Impreso > Valencia, CA, 91355 > (818) 901-6843 > FAX (661) 253-2999 You might want to investigate the Arnold Jacobs buzz aid which is sold at the following website: http://www.windsongpress.com/index.htm I have found it to be very useful, although I did decide to make a slight design substitution (different parts) after I received it. I feel that I have made it easier to adjust the resistance, and that what ever adjustment you chose will stay in place until you decide to change it. My 3¢ Worth, Galen ZinnÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ E-mail: zinger@musician.org ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 11:49:01 -0800 From: Galen Zinn To: Trombone List Post Subject: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Why does the double valved pedal Bb in 5th position on an inline bass trombone use up 1/3 more air? Is it just simply the matter of filling more tubing with air? The air can't go anywhere but out the bell. I would think that once you begin the buzz at the mouthpiece the column of air in the horn would vibrate regardless of how much air you push in. Physically speaking what's going on here? Galen Zinn E-mail: zinger@musician.org ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 15:34:03 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020404153200.02357f48@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:49 AM 4/4/2002 -0800, Galen Zinn wrote: Why does the double valved pedal Bb in 5th position on an inline bass trombone use up 1/3 more air? Is it just simply the matter of filling more tubing with air? The air can't go anywhere but out the bell. I would think that once you begin the buzz at the mouthpiece the column of air in the horn would vibrate regardless of how much air you push in. Physically speaking what's going on here? 2 theories: 1) It isn't that much quieter. It is just that the pedals are raspier, and therefore sound louder. 2) All that extra bass in the slide and both valve loops and that vibration is dissipating energy. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:45:18 EST From: ALFORDMB@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Sharp King 3B's. Message-ID: <139.c241ff1.29de155e@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/04/2002 11:03:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, BGuttman@compuserve.com writes: > There were a number of 2B's made sharp so that you can play 1st position > out a little. Allows slide vibrato in 1st. I think there also were some > 2B+'s like that, too. AFAIK, all the other Kings were not made purposely > sharp. > This model should have the letters "LS" following the model number engraved on the bell - "2102LS" rather than just "2102 for the standard 2B. Mike Alford ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:52:39 -0500 From: "Cooper" To: "'Trombone-L'" Subject: Nick Hudson Concert Message-ID: <009e01c1dc1a$a8d6e2c0$0900a8c6@workstation> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just in case you missed the last message I sent, information about Nick Hudson in concert in Ontario and New Jersey can be found at www.geocities.com/cromyr/concert/index2. Both events will be well worth the price of admission. Ian ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:57:56 -0600 From: "Gary Greenhoe" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Exactly Craig, Rather than using the horn with the handslide all the way in....much more conical...you are adding all of that .562 tubing to the mix...as well as the .594 tubing in the valves... much tighter than the open horn fundamental. Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Craig Parmerlee Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 2:34 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb At 11:49 AM 4/4/2002 -0800, Galen Zinn wrote: >Why does the double valved pedal Bb in 5th position on an inline bass >trombone use up 1/3 more air? Is it just simply the matter of filling more >tubing with air? The air can't go anywhere but out the bell. I would think >that once you begin the buzz at the mouthpiece the column of air in the horn >would vibrate regardless of how much air you push in. Physically speaking >what's going on here? 2 theories: 1) It isn't that much quieter. It is just that the pedals are raspier, and therefore sound louder. 2) All that extra bass in the slide and both valve loops and that vibration is dissipating energy. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 14:07:53 -0800 From: Galen Zinn To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: [TL]RE: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 4/4/02 12:57 PM, quoth Gary Greenhoe > Exactly Craig, > > Rather than using the horn with the handslide all the way in....much more > conical...you are adding all of that .562 tubing to the mix...as well as the > .594 tubing in the valves... much tighter than the open horn fundamental. > > Gary > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu > [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Craig Parmerlee > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 2:34 PM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb > > > At 11:49 AM 4/4/2002 -0800, Galen Zinn wrote: >> Why does the double valved pedal Bb in 5th position on an inline bass >> trombone use up 1/3 more air? Is it just simply the matter of filling more >> tubing with air? The air can't go anywhere but out the bell. I would think >> that once you begin the buzz at the mouthpiece the column of air in the > horn >> would vibrate regardless of how much air you push in. Physically speaking >> what's going on here? > > 2 theories: > > 1) It isn't that much quieter. It is just that the pedals are raspier, and > therefore sound louder. > > 2) All that extra bass in the slide and both valve loops and that > vibration is dissipating energy. > >From your responses, I'm not sure if you really understand what I'm saying. I can sustain a pedal Bb in first position at least 1/3 (depending on how deeply I breathe) sometimes even 2/5ths longer than I can sustain the same note played with both valves depressed in 5th position. With the metronome set at 120, in first position I can sustain the note from 20-24 beats; but when playing on two valves in 5th position I do well if I can sustain it for 12-16 beats if I'm lucky. What gives? The horn is full of air before I start blowing; I would think that the new air that I introduce into the horn would simply push the existing air out, providing enough "fuel" to sustain a note of equal pitch and length regardless of the overall length or shape of the tube. After all, both notes are the same number of cycles per second. Obviously there is more resistance on the double valved 5th position version of the pedal Bb. Is extra "fuel" needed because of the resistance? It just doesn't seem like you should need extra air to overcome resistance. Galen Zinn E-mail: zinger@musician.org ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 16:17:59 -0600 From: "Brennan Arceneaux" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: [TL]RE: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb Message-ID: <000e01c1dc26$95731620$50a3cdd1@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Galen Zinn" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [TL]RE: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb > > Rather than using the horn with the handslide all the way in....much more > > conical...you are adding all of that .562 tubing to the mix...as well as the > > .594 tubing in the valves... much tighter than the open horn fundamental. > > > > Gary Closely related, and you guys might find this interesting. Peaslee's Arrows of Time is on my master's recital coming up shortly, and the first movement ends with a long Pedal A, followed by a Pedal D. I've had the hardest time getting the D to speak on my tenor unless I play it as a false tone without the valve. Not that it sounds great, but at least the note happens. The ratio between the length of tubing and the bore of the tubing has something to do with it I think. There's more resistance blowing against a higer ratio. Brennan Arceneaux bren77@i-55.com Masters Student: Southeastern Louisiana University Ovation Brass Quintet ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 18:40:19 -0600 From: "Steve Cagle" To: "T BONE" Subject: ULM Jazz concert with guest Harry Watters Message-ID: <000c01c1dc3a$76d3f220$22a3f318@jam.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1DC08.2BF65EA0" Thought the list might be interested in the University of Louisiana at Monroe Jazz enemble concert. Special guest is Harry Watters of the Army Blues Band. The concert is April 23, it will be at Family Church in West Monroe. (Where I just happen to be the Instrumental Music Director!). Time is 7:30. If you live in this region (North LA, South Ark, East Texas,) I highly recommend you try to come hear him. He will also be doing master classes throughout the day at ULM. Steve Cagle Family Church Instrumental Director Equinox Jazz Orchestra Twin City Community Jazz Band ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 19:40:45 EST From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb Message-ID: <18d.6051cc2.29de4c8d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_18d.6051cc2.29de4c8d_boundary" grzinn@ca.astound.net writes: " Why does the double valved pedal Bb in 5th position on an inline bass trombone use up 1/3 more air? Physically speaking what's going on here? " One word: Resistance. Matt Varho ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 19:46:07 EST From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: F.A.R.T. Message-ID: <16e.b8796cc.29de4dcf@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Listers: I used to be a proponent of using a "resistance simulator" during buzzing but now am on the other end of the pendulum swing. Since reading Roger Bobo's book and following his advice, I have decided to try buzzing without a BERP or FART for a while to see what results I get. So far it's been about a month and I have not noticed any adverse effects. Matt Varho ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 22:22:22 -0500 From: "Aaron Roth" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sure, just as a car has to burn extra gas to start moving on an uphill grade in second gear, a bass trombonist has to burn a little extra air to start buzzing the low Bb on the second partial. Just for the record, my alternate Bb is out in 7th (since I have that G-attachment for valve #2), which probably takes up even MORE air...or does it? -Aaron Roth _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 08:46:59 +0100 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb Message-ID: <004f01c1dc76$71cee280$fe95fc3e@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Aaron Roth" > Sure, just as a car has to burn extra gas to start moving on an uphill grade > in second gear, a bass trombonist has to burn a little extra air to start > buzzing the low Bb on the second partial. Just for the record, my alternate > Bb is out in 7th (since I have that G-attachment for valve #2), which > probably takes up even MORE air...or does it? > -Aaron Roth Surprised you can even reach Bb with a G valve. I have my 2nd valve tuned to Gb. Using this in conjunction with the F valve, my BBb is right at the end of the slide (using finger tips). This is further out than 7th position on the open 'bone, but I would prefer to call it 5th position (D is in 1st using both valves). A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:15:39 +0200 From: Howard Weiner To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Nemetz and alto trombone in Beethoven.... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020404225400.009f3940@mail.sampo.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:11 04.04.02 -0600, Gary Greenhoe wrote: Hi Howard, I appreciate and respect your documented findings. And as you are, I'm always searching for historical artifacts. But, as I look at trombone history from the mouthpiece side...I have to ask, why is the Eb and F alto so prevalent in real life? Did someone just decide around 1850 that they would collectively manufacture a ton of Eb/F alto's for kicks? Now we're getting into an area that I'm not so familiar with. Nevertheless, I think I can safely venture two answers. First, the 19th century saw the rise of the military band, both in Europe and in the USA (and later in the Confederacy). This brought about a tremendous demand for brass instruments of all kinds. After the Civil War, the band movement continued to thrive in the USA (with help from the instrument manufacturers), with town bands, high school bands, college bands, etc., causing an even greater demand for brass instruments. Second, combined with this, the nineteenth century was a time of great experimentation in instrument making. Consider, for example, all the strange instruments that Adolphe Sax invented and produced: saxhorns, valve trombones, trombones with seven bells, saxophones, etc. Principal buyer of all these instruments? The French military bands. Something most people don't realize: For the most part, it was only around the middle of the 19th century that orchestras started employing trombonists on a full-time basis. Until then there was only a limited orchestral repertoire requiring trombones. What did an orchestra do when they wanted to perform, say, Beethoven's 5th? Why, they brought in the trombones from the local military band, of course! I submit that we all can research trombone history on more than one front. True. But it's often more practical or even necessary to limit the area of research, to focus on just one or two aspects (without losing sight of everything else, of course). There are historical documents which tell us much....but there are also instruments and a clear trail of them...in our history that must indicate something. It does little good to speculate on the past and what tools one used 100-200 years ago based on a few instruments ...or a few documents. It's a starting point, though. All research is a starting point for more research, which can lead to new insights. Something that I discover and can't put into place might just be the piece that completes the part of the puzzle you're working on, even though the connection is not apparent at first glance. Howard -- Howard Weiner weiner@privat.toplink.de http://www.odilia.ch/howard-weiner If vegetarians eat only vegetables, what do humanitarians eat? ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 04:20:10 -0500 From: "Aaron Roth" To: slide.rule@adios.co.uk, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I guess I've always thought of my slide positions empirically, relating everything to the original seven positions. As for the alternate Bb, a little lip goes a long way. :-) I probably can't reach it at all purely with slide, but I generally run out to empirical 7th (and not to the end of the slide) and lip very slightly so that timbre isn't too heavily affected. For some reason, though, the lowest BBb speaks better in tune than alternate pedal Bb, probably because I still shift to hit the bottom pedals. -Aaron Roth Adrian said aloud while typing: Surprised you can even reach Bb with a G valve. I have my 2nd valve tuned to Gb. Using this in conjunction with the F valve, my BBb is right at the end of the slide (using finger tips). This is further out than 7th position on the open 'bone, but I would prefer to call it 5th position (D is in 1st using both valves). A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 11:00:02 +0100 From: "Adrian Drover" To: "Aaron Roth" , Subject: Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb Message-ID: <008101c1dc88$c488d7d0$fe95fc3e@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Aaron Roth" > I probably can't reach it at all purely > with slide, but I generally run out to empirical 7th (and not to the end of > the slide) and lip very slightly so that timbre isn't too heavily affected. I find it fairly easy to lip down the 13th position (F+Gb 5th) note one or two semitones without seriously affecting the timbre. Also discovered that I can reach 24th harmonic F in this position too. That's a 5th greater than the french horn range, tho' probably not the kind of sound any serious composer would like to hear. Wow, the overtones are really close together up there. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 06:42:40 -0600 From: "Jon Moeller" To: Subject: RE: 3B Message-ID: <000501c1dc9f$5ffdbda0$9b01a8c0@jon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Excellent point Craig. I remember that on my 165F (pretty much exact copy of 3b (thanks to UMI)), the tuning slide had to be pulled out about 1.5-2" to be in tune. -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Craig Parmerlee Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 10:17 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: 3B At 06:17 AM 4/4/2002 -0600, Edwards Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared wrote: >Hi all, The simple solution to a flat 3B is to replace the tuning slide >crook. >Just have your tech order one and have it cut 1/2" to 3/4" longer than the >original. >No big deal. I have an even simpler solution. Pull out the tuning slide a little and stop staring at it. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 06:51:14 -0600 From: "Jon Moeller" To: Subject: Things that really tick me off. Message-ID: <000001c1dca0$92572fb0$9b01a8c0@jon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C1DC6E.47BCBFB0" I really hate these rich kids today. There is a kid in our schoolÕs band, heÕs a freshman, and his dad bought him a King bass bone the other day. ÊIts like a $2500 horn, and he has no clue how to use it. He thinks pedal Db is in 1st with both valves downÉ And there are many other people like that too. ÊEven kinds in the junior high (8th grade) are hauling around 42BÕs which are WAAY too much for them. Of course now it makes since why Bach can get away with such shoddy quality control, all these parents are so willing to buy their kids a $2000 horn. AAAHHH!!! ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 07:54:13 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: gary@greenhoe.com, bpfost@humboldt1.com, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Nemetz and alto trombone in Beethoven - and alto design Message-ID: <81F62454EA21B94EA95517180D7303730243F9AF@lee-is-102.lee.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1DCA0.FCCBD760" Gary, Are the smaller altos you have come to prefer more proportionate to a tenor trombone?Ê When you look at an alto, it doesn't look like a small tenor; it looks kind of distorted, bell section too big and slide attached in the wrong place, to my eyes anyway. It sounds like you may agree.Ê I've always wondered how one would play if it were simply a scaled down version of a tenor. I suspect many alto bells are made on the same mandrel as a tenor to save production costs and I wouldn't predict that would work very well.Ê -----Original Message----- From: Gary Greenhoe [mailto:gary@greenhoe.com] things I've learned for my taste: What is wrong with the Conn? the bell flare and tuning slide are way too big....it is a woofer and sounds like a big tenor out front. Yamaha is even bigger through the tuning slide....bell has a better taper...but much too big. The large hole the tuning slide makes...leaves the Yamaha very unstable down low....try to find pitch centers on one. They wobble all over the place. And, again, they sound like a large bore tenor out front. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 06:01:51 -0800 From: Galen Zinn To: Matt Varho Cc: Trombone List Post Subject: Re: [TL]Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 4/4/02 4:40 PM, quoth BassBonist@aol.com > grzinn@ca.astound.net writes: > > >> " Why does the double valved pedal Bb in 5th position on an inline bass >> trombone use up 1/3 more air? Physically speaking >> what's going on here? " > > One word: Resistance. > > Matt Varho > But, suppose you are getting more "resistance" because you are using a mouthpiece with a narrower throat, with this scenario you use less air instead of more air. Evidently there is more to this than just "resistance"? Galen Zinn E-mail: zinger@musician.org ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 06:05:08 -0800 From: Galen Zinn To: Adrian Drover Cc: Trombone List Post Subject: Re: [TL]RE: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 4/4/02 11:49 PM, quoth Adrian Drover > > From: "Galen Zinn" > >> I can sustain a pedal Bb in first position at least 1/3 (depending on how >> deeply I breathe) sometimes even 2/5ths longer than I can sustain the same >> note played with both valves depressed in 5th position. With the metronome >> set at 120, in first position I can sustain the note from 20-24 beats; but >> when playing on two valves in 5th position I do well if I can sustain it > for >> 12-16 beats if I'm lucky. > > > Haven't measured myself on this, but have noticed the opposite between open > 'bone and tuba. I can sustain a low note on my Eb tuba considerably longer > than the same open pedal on bass 'bone. One lister offered that it was the > resistance that helped to extend the sustain time on the tuba. > > A. > > Adrian Drover > ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk > Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk > Indeed, if you use a mouthpiece with a narrower throat, you can sustain the note longer because of the added resistance. Galen Zinn E-mail: zinger@musician.org ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 09:43:19 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Cc: jwinkler@wvu.edu Subject: Summer music job opening Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" This job opportunity was passed on to me, asking if I knew anyone who might be interested, so I thought I'd pass it on to the list FYI. Contact information appears later in the message; please don't respond directly to me, I'm just the messenger. -Doug Yeo ==================== A summer employment opportunity for a Christian college-age/graduate trombonist. This commitment runs from mid-June to mid-August. Camp-of-the-Woods (COTW) is a well-known Christian resort in the heart of the Adirondack Mountains of New York State, which has had a tradition of excellent music making for many, many years. Following a very successful Summer 2001 with new music director, Hector Guzman from Dallas, Texas, we are actively recruiting talented young men and women who are seeking careers in music, but also want the opportunity to use their talents effectively in Christian ministry. COTW is a summer-long (9 to 10 weeks, depending on availability) employment opportunity. As of April 5, COTW still has one remaining opening for a trombonist... bass or tenor. The music staff performs regularly for the 1200 guests who come with their families each week. COTW will host some wonderful, internationally known guest speakers for summer 2002, including Ravi Zacharias, Josh McDowell, Howard Hendricks, and others. The guests and staff have full access to all recreational activities, including those revolving around beautiful Lake Pleasant. Visit the website: http://www.Camp-of-the-Woods.org for some general information and photographs of COTW along with staff application information. The goal for music staff: to provide musical and spiritual challenges to those seeking to serve our Lord in the Arts. There are many opportunities to play and perform. There are concerts each Friday and Saturday night, daily chapels (which require soloists and ensembles), special mid-week shows, smaller chamber ensembles that play informal performances near the waterfront and at the dining areas, etc. We are staffing a Big Band, a string quartet, a woodwind and brass quintet, and a small vocal ensemble. The musical format blends Classical, Pops, traditional sacred, and "Christian Contemporary" elements. The pay is modest, but significant for the benefits a summer like this may yield. Last season, the music staff earned approximately $225 to $250 per week, which meets or exceeds what many students earn at other music oriented camps around the country. Full room and board are provided. Waiting on guest tables is the way most music staff earn their income. The staff enjoys this opportunity to meet families from many parts of the country. Interested trombonists should contact Dr. John Winkler or Kathy Winkler immediately at: jwinkler@wvu.edu. Please include a contact phone number and a brief description of who you are (school, class, major and a sentence or two describing your music experience.) Please note that this position will be filled immediately upon receipt of a qualified application and telephone interview. -John Winkler ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 15:48:12 +0100 From: "Edward Solomon" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Cc: Subject: RE: [TL]RE: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a remarkably simple answer to this question. The air column. The combination of two valve attachments plus the Bb side of the instrument constitutes an air column that measures 18 feet. To illustrate: the Bb trombone air column is 9 feet, so the fundamental BBb is the lowest note of the 9 foot air column. The BBb with both valves is equivalent to the second partial of the BBb contrabass trombone, which is an 18 foot air column. To set and maintain an air column of that length in motion requires more effort than with a 9 foot air column. It also has to do with the way in which fundamentals work versus second partials, but that's another story. __________________________________________ Edward Solomon British Trombone Society Webmaster mailto:webmaster@trombone-society.org.uk Visit "The Trombonist Online" - the online magazine of the British Trombone Society http://www.trombone-society.org.uk __________________________________________ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:35:14 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Things that really tick me off. Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jon, I really hate these rich kids today. There is a kid in our school's band, he's a freshman, and his dad bought him a King bass bone the other day. Its like a $2500 horn, Would you rather that they play on dreadful instruments that fight them at every stage of their development? DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:39:53 -0500 From: "Steve Beck" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: [TL]RE: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb Message-ID: <007801c1dcb8$24191000$e00c0923@cl.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Edward Solomon" To set and maintain an air column of that length in > motion requires more effort than with a 9 foot air column. That extra effort is the result of the flow loss from the length of tubes, bends etc. The more pipe the more effort is required to overcome the resistance. You see the same thing in "head loss" in fluid systems and current loss in electrical systems. Electric current in a wire is reduced by the wire's resistance. Less resistance, more current. You have to supply more voltage to get more current. That is a good analogy for more tubing. It takes more air, more buzzing to overcome the resistance of the extra tubing. Someone else said "Indeed, if you use a mouthpiece with a narrower throat, you can sustain the note longer because of the added resistance." I think your confusing things here. You probably cannot sustain the same "sound" with the smaller mouthpiece. You can play a higher, (or thinner) note longer, but to get the same sound as the large mouthpiece (if you even could) would take a similar effort. The added "resistance" of the smaller mouthpiece restricts how much air you can shove into the system. It's not "wasting" your effort, it is preventing or hindering it. The difference between this, and extra tubing resistance is. the extra tubing is actually robbing your effort. It's letting you blow your little heart out. It's just charging you a surtax for doing so. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:41:55 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: alto design Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I've always wondered how one would play if it were simply a scaled down version of a tenor. I suspect many alto bells are made on the same mandrel as a tenor to save production costs and I wouldn't predict that would work very well. As someone whoâs cut down a small-bore tenor, to make it into an alto, I can tell you that trying to maintain the look of a smaller tenor trombone isnât going to work. I cut the slide down as short as I could and still didnât have enough tubing left, to have the tuning slide ãin the right placeä. Your best bet would be to move the bell back from rim in third position to first position, something that I seriously considered. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 15:45:50 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: [TL]Re: Open Pedal Bb vs. 5th Pos. Inline Double Valved Bb Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed It might also be that the Q of the instrument, the resonance, isnât as high, with all those bends in the tubing, and it takes more of an effort, more air, to get it to resonate, at all. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350 Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:49:38 -0500 From: Lawrence Zaidan To: "Band Chat (Mail)" , "Choralist (Mail)" , Subject: Band & Choral Arrangements Available Message-ID: <3CADD5A1.DA68C94A@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear listers: If you are interested in new selections for band, I have added some arrangements for band, and band & chorus to my web site. The web site also includes score samples, and .wav files. Here is the link: http://www.angelfire.com/id/muzician/coppelia.html The titles that are currently listed, are: Amazing Grace Dies Irae - Mozart Requiem Dona Nobis Pacem Fanfare from "Also sprach Zarathustra" - Richard Strauss Gesu Bambino (vocal solo with band) How Lovely Is Thy Dwelling Place- Brahms Requiem Cheers! Larry Zaidan ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2350--