TROMBONE-L Digest 2344 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Alto Trombone Solos by Gabriel Langfur 2) Re: The Athletic Trombone Player by "Richard Zemry Johnson" 3) Re: improv blues//bus stops here by "D.J. Kennedy" 4) Re: Resubmit w/ new subject...need help w/ impov. by Craig Parmerlee 5) Re: improv blues//bus stops here by "Daniel Pliskin" 6) Re: Alto Trombone Solos by "Keith Marr" 7) Re: Musical Profanity (was Re: need help with some improv) by "Dale J. Cruse" 8) Looking for music by Bruce Guttman 9) Re: Musical Profanity (was Re: need help with some improv) by Walter Barrett 10) RE: need help with some improv by sabutin 11) Alt scale/chord (was Re: Musical Profanity) by "Bodie Pfost" 12) Re: need help with some improv by ROSEBONE@aol.com 13) Bridge over troubled water..... by "M & S Walker" 14) Just one position away ... by Craig Parmerlee 15) Re: Hotmail Message by Larry White 16) Re: Just one position away ... by Walter Barrett 17) Re: The Athletic Trombone Player by Gabriel Langfur 18) Re: Looking for music by ALFORDMB@aol.com 19) Re: Just one position away ... by "Keith Marr" 20) Re: lowd bas trwambonists by jimandcat@juno.com 21) Re: academicization of jazz was RE: improv blues by Angie Brunk 22) RE: need help with some improv by Robin Eubanks 23) One more thing :-) by Robin Eubanks 24) Re: lowd bas trwambonists by "Aaron Roth" 25) Re: need help with some improv//robin eubanks gets it by "D.J. Kennedy" 26) Re: Musical Profanity (Wrong notes?) by "Adrian Drover" 27) Re: Musical Profanity (Altered Intervals) by "Adrian Drover" 28) the ugly bass trombonist by Dave Tall 29) Re: Just one position away ... by "Adrian Drover" 30) Re: Just one position away ... by Craig Parmerlee 31) RE: Musical Profanity (Wrong notes and scales) by "Wessner, John" 32) RE: Musical Profanity (Wrong notes and scales) by Craig Parmerlee 33) Re: Musical Profanity (Wrong notes and scales) by "Dale J. Cruse" 34) alternative new age and slide trips dirrefent drummers by "D.J. Kennedy" 35) RE: Musical Profanity (Wrong notes and scales) by "Wessner, John" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:01:29 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Alto Trombone Solos Message-ID: <20020329180129.47469.qmail@web10308.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- posaune rex wrote: > Keith, > > Hickey's has one of my favorite pieces for alto... the > Albrechtsberger > Passione Domine. It is scored for alto vocalist, alto > trombone, 2 violins, > cello, and organ (or piano). IMHO, A very beautiful and > underperformed > work! Good luck. An furthermore, check out the Christian Lindberg CD with that & a whole bunch of other pieces like it: "Trombone and Voice in the Habsburg Empire". - this is by far my favorite Lindberg recording. BIS-CD-548 Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:55:40 -0600 From: "Richard Zemry Johnson" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: The Athletic Trombone Player Message-ID: <006601c1d753$52776ba0$35ae9d42@zemry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0063_01C1D721.07890F40" Very well written, Paul! ****************************************************************************** Richard Zemry Johnson, Jr.ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ "The Untouchables" Jazz Ensemble Shreveport Metropolitan Concert Band ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, "There won't come a time when you won't have to practice anymore." J. J. Johnson ********************************************************************************* I'm not satisfied with anything about my playing. I know what I want. I can hear it; but it will take time and study to get it" -Sonny Rollins (1956) ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul D. Kemp, Jr. To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 11:24 AM Subject: Re: The Athletic Trombone Player Dear Trombone-L, I trust that everybody is having a good Good Friday. ÊÊ I know that this topic was originally about articulation and range, but I'd like to assert something else here as far as practicing is concerned. ÊÊ Yes, playing the trombone is an athletic endeavor on many levels. It requiresÊthe physical conditioning of a track and field athlete for the sake of endurance, and it also requires the type of conditioning required of the sports thatÊfall into the category of hand/eye coordination (bowling, golf, billiards, etc.) On top of all of that, we are trying to produce music. I wouldn't even want to venture to guess the average level of the participants of this list. Some of us do this because it is a release from the stresses of our daily jobs, and othersÊare musicÊteachers, others make a small amount of money annualyÊplaying the trombone, others of us make aÊmoderate amount of money playing the horn, and a very few make a substantial living playing the horn. Some people have joined our ranks that have taken a good while off the horn, and I always welcome those people back into the fold. Be that as it may, I do believe that all of us want to become better trombonists and better musicians. FromÊtime to time, I feel that it is necessary to take some time and reflect on what we're actually doing. Because of the fact that we are human, there is going to be a certain amount of sloppiness of various forms that is going to creep into our playing. It might be not being able to hold out notes or to play long phrases as we envision them to be in our brain, it might be an articulation problem, it might be a lack of sufficient tonal range, volume range, intonation, etc.Ê ÊÊÊ I've become interested in folks that play the hand/eye coordination sports very well, most notably Tiger Woods, even though I've never picked up a golf club. As many of you probably know, Tiger began playing golf at a very young age, and showed an enormous amount of ability.ÊWhat you may not know is that even after he had already become a regular winner on the pro tour, he decided that there was another level that he wanted to reach, so he hired a coach, and that coach completely tore his physical approach to the game apart, and piece by piece put it back together again. If something creeps into Tiger's game that he is not satisfied with, then he gets together with his coach, and his coachÊstudies what he is doing, and comes with a plan of how he can do it better. It might meanÊa 1/2" difference in the way that he addresses the ball, it might be how far he follows through on his swing, ANYTHING. Then Tiger will practice those changes until he feels that he has mastered them.Ê What we must remember always is that we're dealing here with an art form, and the coordination that is involved in executing that art form to the highest level isÊquite involved. However, the problem that I see with most players is that we don't want to tear our game apart and put it back together. Perhaps it is an admission of being weak, perhaps it isÊthat we don't want to devote the time and effort necessaryÊin order to play on a higher level. However, one fact remains--there are peopleÊout there that refuse to acceptÊthe fact that there are limits as to what they can do on the horn.Ê What I'm driving at is that in order to do very difficult things so that they sound easy, we must first start with executing simple thingsÊand gradually increaseÊthe level of difficulty as our confidence increases. This may mean doing drill type work (similar to the work I prescribed for Fred Hudson for the articlation problem) of isolating what physical actions are involved and separating the actions and then putting them back together as we can delegate each of those actions to our subconscious.Ê It requires being able to figure out why you can't do something, and slowly, with patience and persistence, working on the problems until you can atleast put it all together slowly, then once you can do that, then add the speed.Ê To me, this is what REAL practice is all about. You're always trying to improve some aspect of your playing, and incidenatally, top athletes practice this way all the time. Why should we be any different? There's always room at the top, there really are no limits on playingÊthe trombone other than the ones that we set in our brains. What it really boils down to is smart work, not just spending time on the horn for the mere sake of doing that, but practicing with a purpose. Paul D. Kemp Jr. Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊÊ ÊÊÊ ÊÊ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:28:18 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" To: daniel_pliskin@hotmail.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: improv blues//bus stops here Message-ID: <3CA4CE62.67F2C379@midwest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit actually i have done some thinking on the subject and have several theories about my feelings and the current state of the art ----impressions upon meeting --------- first of all --dizzy gillespe --he blew an incredible concert at grant park and afterward there was a huge limo with a very cute and young ''fan'' waiting for him wynton marsailais ----very intense feeling like he had been marketed by the music business and packaged like uncle toms rice louis armstrong ---very surprized expresion in his eyes saying so much it defies words but only to know a very very deep soul in an instant and knowing that his needs and gifts come from the highest place his lip looked like hamburger warren covington ---let me sit in with the td band for a whole set when i was 19 buddy morrow---loud --for sure dick nash ---friend of my mother and an admirer of murray mc eachern bob brookmeyer ---at 24 a sensation --much about his life with booze and now for 20 years plus recovering ---bob brookmeyer very understanding compassionate and very intellectual wr watrous --very intense --practices lots --and sings too great stories ----about new york and andys and kai winding and carl fontanna robin eubanks --subbing on difficult material on the first gig of a tour no rehearsal ----thats improv !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and so on ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// what i see and feel as time goes by is that jazz has become a subject to be learned apart from the jazz life schools have become the place --not coming out of big bands touring -- one night jobs people dancing -----wedding gigs -jazz festivals -- los vegas --recording studios --backing up singers -- many areas had their big bands and local theatre --------- this is long past jazz combos came before rock and roll bands blues ---many young players are not learning the blues and times have changed the old blues players sing and play in a certain style --the keyboard player [b3] in michael brooks band told angie that he gets $3000 per gig yes jazz has become acceptable as elevator music -the level of musicianship has become incredible-and jazz has become respectible but by the masses about as popular as opera or symphony ----pops orchestra ---- jazz musicians themselves judge other jazz musicians on several things personality --uniqueness -exploring or not exploring new ground technical skill ---sense of humor ---wierdness ---hats they wear[al grey] dependability or flakiness --easy to work with or not -- reading or writing ability ---business acumen or lack thereof - a certain performance when everything clicked or didnt --- their girlfriends//wife//boyfriend// xxxxs---jimmy smith jaguar -- now for those of you into speed reading i apologize for my writing style it is not elevator music ---no troolhouse cookies today --thanks i believe that the best jazz and other music spring forth from the basic drive to create to love and be loved in return -to be accepted --from being truly inspired --to inspire others by social issues political climate and or deep religious experience and faith a hunger drive motivation determination desperateness failings faults foibles flubs and overcoming obstacles ----freedom --healing --a state of bliss--- connecting with the life force and a giving up of the ego --submersion into a flowing state of mind -------getting in the groove ---the flow -- happening ---with it ----turned on ---hot --synced--linked up connected --in tune --- use the instrument as a way of prayer meditation inner reflection a means of transcending a bitter world and a bickering people ---climb the mountain moses lay down your stone -bring the light to the people play it joshua gabriel blow your horn --rejoice and make a mighty and joyful noise yes i have heard the high note ---i believe ---- so all we are asking is give peace a chance --put a little soul into it it wasnt always as easy as gong to the practice room or combo class and the music itself is incredibly demanding of both technical and intellectual skills but in the past it was the other ingredients to the mix that gave jazz an edge if you can somehow catch that ----yellow brick road ----on 4 Daniel Pliskin wrote: > OK, several things: > > First, Iâd like to apologize for the ãless than warm welcome youâve received > on trombone-L. Weâve had a history of trolls, disrupting the list, and I > was a bit quick to finger you as yet another. > > I do still feel that youâre working extra hard to make it difficult for > others to read you email messages. And for me it requires that I dispense > with speed-reading, some thing that Iâve gotten used to using most of the > time. Iâm not saying that being forced to relax, for a moment, is a bad > thing. > > >ok mouthpiece for sale --hn white co 28 equa tru > > I loved these about a year and a half ago. Iâve got two of them. > > Theyâre about half a millimeter smaller than a 6 ¸ AL and they got a > slightly flatter rim. Theyâre also more funnel-shaped than a 6 ¸ AL and > have a smaller back-bore. > > They sound quite pleasant on a small-bore trombone. Being funnel-shaped, > they tend to be a bit less brassy, just a bit more whispery or fuzzy, than a > similar sized cup-shaped mouthpiece. > > For someone who wants a little warmth in their sound and doesnât want to go > to a larger mouthpiece to get it, I heartily recommend an H.N. White 28 > Equa-Tru. > > DanP > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:42:20 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Resubmit w/ new subject...need help w/ impov. Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020329143435.00b219a8@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:46 PM 3/29/2002 -0500, Jason Rogers wrote: This is one of the best things I experienced at New England Conservatory and specifically with Ran Blake. (methods, syllabus, and all). I think NEC may be the only place where this is done this way. -- snip -- Well, one thing than Ran teaches is that you can specifically cultivate the influences on your "subconscious" to bring about stylistic change if you care to. It sounds like a fascinating course of study. I'm wondering if there is anything along that school of thought for adults in a condensed camp format. I realize the contradiction of trying to squeeze something of a "self discovery" program into a high impact week. I guess what I'm saying is that I've avoided the popular jazz camps because their itinerary seems to be emphasizing face time on the horns and hobnobbing with famous artists. I'm sure the participants find that valuable or else the camps would not succeed financially, but what you have described sounds like something that would do me more good. Cheers, Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:56:07 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: improv blues//bus stops here Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed D.J. Now THAT really was well written; with a bit less of that Miles Davis brevity for we old-school sorts. The life of a jazz musician is very hard. I tried it for a while and, frankly, am really happy I chose another path. The creativity, needed in order to keep having things to work towards, other than just more and more speed, is way up there with Steven Hawkens. Lots of people have thought that they could find creativity in drugs and alcohol. Perhaps they did. Lord knows, some of their music is magical. Life on the road certainly doesnât help to add stability to their lives. Then thereâs all that stuff we learned in biology, all those claims that man is a superior creature because we have the ability to learn from each otherâs mistakes. More and more, I see less and less evidence to support that. And I think itâs wonderful that the gene maps of humans and mice show that we really arenât more biologically complex then mice, only different. So when it seems as if one might, and I repeat, might be able to learn jazz in school, I applaud that effort. It does seem a bit odd that students are analyzing raw feelings, in order to come up with a formulaic representation of jazz should be. And yet my jazz playing and understanding increased one hundred-fold, by virtue of a couple years of schooling, in music. But then I think your logic wanders. Thereâs money to be made in ãselling outä. And I have no doubt that those with that money would prefer to deal with reliable musicians that donât have drug and alcohol problems. Theyâre not looking for music with raw feeling, so they might as well hire someone that canât play the blues. Perhaps we can fault young musicians for taking the Musak path, but when those musicians get a bit older and have a few financial responsibilities, that money looks like a Godsend. Are they selling their souls? Itâs really hard to know. Perhaps thatâs why most religions leave that judgement up to God. I appreciate that you hung in there. Iâm slowly coming around. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:55:17 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Alto Trombone Solos Message-ID: <009601c1d75b$ac992d00$a02786d9@tiny> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all who replied with reference to this thread. I now have loads of stuff to look at - brilliant! Keith in Eb/Bb for the purposes of this thread only ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:06:20 -0500 From: "Dale J. Cruse" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Musical Profanity (was Re: need help with some improv) Message-ID: <016d01c1d74c$6ec00990$0302a8c0@desktop> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT For all your would-be improvisers out there, the appropriate scale to use over this chord would be the chromatic scale (minus the natural seventh). Just trying to help! Dale J. Cruse dale@dalecruse.com www.dalecruse.com Professional sites for professional people. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Mathews" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 12:46 PM Subject: Re: Musical Profanity (was Re: need help with some improv) > Some folk like lots of tension and some > don't. If you don't like the sound of something like C7b9 or C7b13, you > shoulkd go way out of your way to avoid something like C7 Alt (i.e. C7, > b9, #9, #11, b13). That one is REAL tense!! > > To each his own ;-) > > Mike Mathews > Director of Instrumental Studies > Missouri Western State College > mathews@mwsc.edu ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:11:14 -0500 From: Bruce Guttman To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Looking for music Message-ID: <200203291511_MC3-F7D6-2A8B@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message text written by INTERNET:joetuba@lightspeed.net >My band director is looking for the parts to E. F. Goldman's Children's March. Any leads it is POP This is EDWIN FRANCO GOLDMAN not Percy Grainger < This was called "Children's March", and was published (I believe) by Carl Fischer. I wouldn't be surprised if it was out of print. We have a copy in the Nevers Band library, but we use it every year for our Childrens' Concert. I doubt we could let it go even for a week. You might want to contact the Chatfield Brass Band (do a Search on them). They may have a copy in their lending library. Another place to try is the Detroit Concert Band. The DCB will sell a set of photocopies of Out of Print music. Hope this helps. Bruce Guttman Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band Section Leader, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra Former Librarian, Nevers Band of Concord, NH ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:21:10 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Musical Profanity (was Re: need help with some improv) Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/29/02 1:06 PM, Dale J. Cruse expounded thusly... > For all your would-be improvisers out there, the appropriate scale to use over > this chord would > be the chromatic scale (minus the natural seventh). Just trying to help! > > Dale J. Cruse > dale@dalecruse.com > www.dalecruse.com > Professional sites for professional people. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Mathews" > To: "Trombones and related issues forum." > Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 12:46 PM > Subject: Re: Musical Profanity (was Re: need help with some improv) > > >> Some folk like lots of tension and some >> don't. If you don't like the sound of something like C7b9 or C7b13, you >> shoulkd go way out of your way to avoid something like C7 Alt (i.e. C7, >> b9, #9, #11, b13). That one is REAL tense!! >> >> To each his own ;-) >> >> Mike Mathews >> Director of Instrumental Studies >> Missouri Western State College >> mathews@mwsc.edu > And, like Jiggs Whigham said, "If you play a wrong note, you're only one position away from a right note!" -- Walter Barrett "The only things that the United States has given to the world are skyscrapers, jazz, and cocktails. That is all. And in Cuba, in our America, they make much better cocktails." -Federico Garc’a Lorca Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:38:56 -0500 From: sabutin To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: need help with some improv Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1194688154==_ma============" Here's a post I THINK I posted a few months ago on the trombone list...I know it was originally written for the OTJ Forum in answer to a particular question about Cherokee + Giant Steps from a college age player. The specific concepts in it can be applied to almost all tonal jazz improvisation, and since we...myself included...have recently gotten all touchy-feely about improvisation, I thought maybe this might ground the discussion a little. If you've already read it...just delete. ====================== I don't know at what level you play nor how much harmonic theory you understand, so I am going to answer you in a fairly broad manner. Generally, when people have "trouble" w/ tunes like Giant Steps and Cherokee, their real problems are threefold. 1-They don't have the technical wherewithal to make the tempos. 2-They neither understand the harmony on a theoretical level nor can they hear it. 3-They are frightened of sounding bad, especially trombonists when compared to saxophone players and others who play instruments on which it is easier to play fast and fluently through all the keys. (You say you want pointers on how to "to get through these tunes without looking like a complete idiot". Feeling that not playing well makes you LOOK like a complete idiot is one of the BIGGEST problems a jazz playerÉtrombonists particularlyÉmust overcome.) Number one can be solved only through thorough and consistent practice of your instrument, with an eye towards developing certain techniques that will allow you to play tempos. Articulation techniques (tonguing and flexibility), the slide, and their coordination are the greatest physical challenges for a jazz trombonist, and all I can suggest here about them is this. Learn how to double and/or doodle tongue (as well as develop your single tongue), practice your rapid flexibilities, and learn how to use your slide like a fine sword instead of a sledgehammer. (THINK about slide technique and how you hold the slide, and learn your alternate positions thoroughly.) Number three won't get better until you DON'T sound bad, but you do have to understand that you will never play as fast as a good sax player. Use your sound; use your mindÉplay honestly and as simply as you must to make the notes w/out sounding like a cement mixer, and your solos will be appreciated AS TROMBONE SOLOS. That leaves us with number two. Whole books have been written about jazz harmony, and I imagine you are studying it in school as well. However, most of the stuff that is generally taught is lacking in certain aspects for trombonists particularly. It doesn't consider the specifically instrumental problems of the slide trombone, and it very rarely really delves into the CONCEPTUAL things, the reasons and musical, esthetic logic behind why one set of changes is a classic and another set just a dry series of chords. OKÉfirst things first. (This IS a trombone forum, right?) Do you know what the hardest thing is that these two tunes have in common as far as the trombone is concerned? (In their most commonly played keysÉ) B major. Really. Think about it. Giant Steps is REALLY about the relationships between and among three keys, all in a relationship of a major third to each otherÉ.B major, G major and Eb major (hence the "giant steps"Élarge motions from one key to another). Now I'm willing to BET you that you have spent 1/100th of the time the you have been playing the horn in the key of B than in either Eb or GÉmore likely 1/1000th if the truth be known. Yet here you are, about to take a solo on an uptempo, challenging piece of music that asks you to play equally well in B, G + Eb. You play badly on the first chord and there you areÉegg on your face before you even get STARTED. PlusÉB maj.7 and its related ii-7->V7 chords (C#-7->F#7) are going to come back and smack you in the face several more times each chorus. Oh, the DREAD of it allÉ!!! Cherokee is actually a fairly easy tune harmonicallyÉmostly dominant motion from one key to the next, mostly in the "easy" keys of Bb + Eb. But watch outÉHERE COMES THE BRIDGE!!! No preparation, just BAM !!! B major. Here you've been, sailing along playing in familiar keys that are in familiar relationships to one another and suddenlyÉno man's land. By the time you've negotiated THAT minefield, here comes the key of A!! I have heard SO many good players crash on this bridge and never recover for the rest of the tune (still thinking about it 40 bars later)Éthere's even a recording of Charlie Parker having problems on it, and if you really understand how well HE played, that's almost unthinkable. SoÉfirst, learn how to play in B major. As fluently as in Bb. What does this entail on the trombone? Learn how to play middle A# in (a slightly sharp) 5th position. That's a good start, anyway. Learn how to arpeggiate C#-7 in all inversions through as many octaves as you can play, also learn it fully extended through the 9th + 11th. Learn how to play the C# mode of B major., again, using 5th position for middle A#. (This is commonly called the "Dorian" mode, but since as far as I know they didn't play jazz w/complicated changes in Greece during the time of SocratesÉfugeddaboudit. Just learn the scale on the horn.) Learn how to play F#7 arpeggiatedÉagain, through the 9th, #11 and 13th as well. (HintÉtry the basic F#7 chord up from middle F# using only 5th position.) After a few weeks of 20 minutes a day in B major, much of your perceived difficulty with these tunes will be gone, I promise you. (HintÉB major can basically be played using the positions of the "easy" key C major down one position. If can play one, you can play the other. Hint hint hint hint hint hintÉ) NowÉconceptually speaking É(Just a quick rundown, more to help you begin to "think" (and NOT think) about changes in general rather than just get you through these two tunes.) First of all, generally, learn to think and hear in tonal blocks and motion tendencies rather than individual chords. If you have Bb maj.7->Bb7-> Eb maj.7 as in the first part of Cherokee (basic changes, hereÉ) the Bb maj.7 chord is IN Bb, but as soon as you get to the Bb7, you are in Eb. The same general idea holds true for the Eb-7->Ab7-> Bb that follows. Although Eb-7->Ab7 is the ii-7->V7 of Db, it is really heading back to Bb. Play it that way. In Giant Steps, you have B maj.7->D7->G maj.7 as the first three chords. Once you get to the D7, you are IN G major. Then Bb7->Eb maj.7. Think of that in Eb. Then A-7->D7-G maj.7. Think G major. So what you end up doing is playing tonal BLOCKS that are more like: B major->G major->Eb major, G major->Eb major->B major, etc. Simplifies things tremendously. How to "remember" how the changes goÉ? Giant StepsÉthe key centers basically first go down in major thirdsÉB, G, Eb, then G, Eb, BÉthen on the bridge they go UP in major thirdsÉEb, G, B. Any time there is a ii-7->V7, it is an augmented fourth away from the I chord it follows. CherokeeÉIt's in Bb, then Eb, then a little substitute minor subdominant back to Bb (Eb-7->Ab7 can almost be thought of as a fancy Eb minor chord), then V7 of V (C7), back to chords that basically define Bb. The bridgeÉ? Simple. It's in major seconds down (B major, A major, G major) then basically V7 of V-> V7 back to the head. Additionally, the major keys are immediately followed by their minor 7 analogues (B major is followed by B-7, etc.) A word here on ii-7->V7 changes. Again, COMPRESS them in your mind. They are really usually just a V7 chord w/a little delayed resolution and a root change. G-7->C7 really equals C7sus4/G->C7. The note change from 4 to 3 (from F to E in this case) is the salient feature. Now this is all very "intellectual". Getting down to the nitty gritty of actually PLAYING these things requires that you FREE your mind as much as possible so that you can flow, so that you can hear and feel and swing. A hint or two here as well. Practice them as slowly as you need to. Practice them as fast as you can MAKE them, no matter HOW slowly that may be. Don't be afraid to isolate certain series of changes. For example, if you're having trouble w/the first 4 bars of Giant Steps, make a little phrase or song out of it and repeat it until you feel comfortable. (Maybe 2 beats of B maj.7->2 beats of D7->2 beats of G maj.7->2 beats of Bb7->4 beats of Eb maj.7, then add 2 beats of C#-7->2 beats of F#7 to get back to the B maj.7, over and over again.) Try to internalize the harmonies until you are no longer "thinking" of them as much as "hearing" them. One of the best ways I know to do this is to play the tune (or a small segment of the tune) through the cycle of fifths in all keys. After a few keys the mind begins to give up "thinking" about individual chords and begins to combine them into tonal tendencies. You begin to hear rather than think. (An interesting sidelight about Giant StepsÉonce you have gone through the cycle of fifths four timesÉsay Eb, Ab, Db+ Gb/F#Éthe tonal centers you have to play in the next key are the same as they were in the original key, only in a different order, The next key will be B, and the tonal centers will be G, Eb + B for the first four bars instead of B, G + Eb, for example. The changes to this tune are a conceptual masterpiece. Giant Steps indeed, on every level.) AlsoÉLEARN THESE CHANGES AT THE PIANO. Learn simple voicings; learn simple voice leading. You don't have to play them in tempoÉjust learn how they sound and relate. The word "key" suggests the word "lock". You need to understand how to use the "keys" to open up the "locks" of the harmonic content of the music. The keyBOARD is a whole RACK of keys that can be used to open ANY harmonic lock. Learn to use it. And simplify simplify simplify simplify. All this "simplification" can initially seem quite complicatedÉbut that's what you must do. The great jazz players ALL "simplified" in one way or another. They heard in tonal blocks rather than chord chord chord chord chord. They heard in cut time rather than pounding their foot on every beat. And, at the highest pointÉthey just HEARD. No thought, just music. Have fun tryingÉ LaterÉ Sam Burtis ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:04:51 -0800 From: "Bodie Pfost" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Alt scale/chord (was Re: Musical Profanity) Message-ID: <3ca4d6f3.750e.0@humboldt1.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dale said: >For all your would-be improvisers out there, the appropriate scale to use over this chord would >be the chromatic scale (minus the natural seventh). Bodie adds: Or (you could use) the seventh mode of the Db melodic minor scale (jazz version) as explained in the Mark Levine Jazz Theory book. Chord: C-E-(G)-Bb-Db-Eb-Gb-Ab Scale: C-Db-Eb-Fb-Gb-Ab-Bb-C I think. I suppose using Sam's idea of creating new scales by adding a chromatic passing tone you could throw the Gnat in to the scale to get C-Db-Eb-Fb-Gb-G-Ab-Bb-C. What do y'all think? -bodie ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:51:45 EST From: ROSEBONE@aol.com To: sabutin@mindspring.com, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: need help with some improv Message-ID: <2d.1af51414.29d64a01@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sam, This is brilliant thinking - but I hope that those of us who are not into improvising don't dismiss it as applicable to just one aspect of performing. I think you have caught the essence of what should happen (regardless of the style of music we are called to play), and as such it is a global approach that can be applied to any piece of music a musician plays (whether it be Bartok, Bach, Bozza, Ellington or Mingus). I believe that of necessity to perform at the highest levels that a musician must become a theorist, in order to be able to crawl inside the mind of the person who wrote the music, in order to be able to "hear" (internalize the sounds and *relationships* of those sounds), and communicate that understanding to others. I also believe that we are called to be historians, not limited to music, to understand the context of the times that much of the music we play was written in, to put ourselves in the shoes of the composers and performers of the time, to delve into the 80% of the music that wasn't written down. (I know that it may be a shock to some - but just playing the ink isn't playing the music.) Add onto the above the the lifetime of physical training to accomplish the technical requirements of playing the horn, and we realize that there are no quick fixes. However, it makes for one long and exciting journey, and leaves me with the knowledge that I will *never* be bored in this profession of music 'til the day I die. And thank goodness for those who post views that disagree with mine, for they require me to examine my own views and beliefs. Bill Rose McNeese State University Lake Charles, LA rosebone@aol.com In a message dated 3/29/02 2:40:52 PM, sabutin@mindspring.com writes: << Here's a post I THINK I posted a few months ago on the trombone list...I know it was originally written for the OTJ Forum in answer to a particular question about Cherokee + Giant Steps from a college age player. The specific concepts in it can be applied to almost all tonal jazz improvisation, and since we...myself included...have recently gotten all touchy-feely about improvisation, I thought maybe this might ground the discussion a little. >> ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 10:19:46 +1000 From: "M & S Walker" To: "Trombone-L" Subject: Bridge over troubled water..... Message-ID: <001501c1d780$9a9c3a00$01c7223f@ozemail.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit G'day all, Just wondering if any one knows who the horn players were on Simon and Garfunkel's "Bridge over troubled water" album. It was recorded in 1970 (when I was but 1 year old!!) and the horn section is absolutely fabulous!! Just curious Thanks Matthew Walker Bass Trombonist, Opera Australia Walker's Instrument Repair, "The Brassery" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:21:27 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Just one position away ... Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020329185710.021c11a8@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:21 PM 3/29/2002 -0500, Walter Barrett wrote: And, like Jiggs Whigham said, "If you play a wrong note, you're only one position away from a right note!" -- Walter Barrett I never heard that quote. Maybe Jiggs meant it a little in jest, but it is literally true also. This was a real awakening for me awhile back. I had been trying to figure out why people trying to improvise were getting so analytical about it. Man, every book you would look at was just loaded with scales. It seems like there is a new scale spotted more often than comets. I'm going to invent a new class of scales that uses several notes twice and name them after all my friends. I felt like I was wasting my time trying to get enlightenment from that stack of jazz texts. One day when I was most frustrated, I discovered something that made all the difference for me. The only real point of all these scales is to say that given any particular tonality at the moment, there are some notes that mesh better than others. Those that mesh, we include in the scale, those that grind, we leave out of the scale. I don't care how many thousand polysyllabic words a persons throws at it, that is really the bottom line on it. Now I was getting somewhere. The next thing I noticed is that most of those scales have 7 distinct notes. Hmmm. The western scale only has 12 distinct tones. So let me get this straight. If I randomly play any old note that comes to mind, I have a 7 in 12 chance of picking one of the good ones? That's almost a 60% chance of success without using any brainpower at all. Where else are you going to get that kind of odds? But wait, it gets better. If you listen to some of the jazz greats, you quickly learn that they often depart from the "approved scale" to play the 5 remaining grinding notes on purpose to add tension to their playing. So let me recap, if I play a random note, there's a 60% chance it will be a "good" note, and if I guess wrong, there's a good chance that somebody in the audience will think I'm some kind of jazz genius!! My conclusion was to not pay an excessive amount of attention to the theory books. The scales are of very little use to me. Everybody on this forum can immediately hear if a note is just wrong. And as Mr. Whigham says, you're never more than one position away from a good note. The trombone has its drawbacks as a jazz instrument, but the one advantage we have is that if our ears kick in quickly, we can make that bad note virtually disappear by turning it into a passing tone, scoop, or fall. Ever since I figured that out (maybe it is obvious to everybody else), I don't worry about the theory -- I don't even think much about the keys or scales. I just listen to the music and try to come up with musically pleasing or interesting lines, knowing that the odds are strongly in favor of something fitting. Just keep the brain and slide moving and something always works out. I'll have to remember that Whigham quote, Craig P.S. Of course this can cut both ways. On a bad day, I feel like I'm "one position away" on every *$#*%)*& note. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:15:59 -0800 From: Larry White To: conn60h@visi.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Hotmail Message Message-ID: <3CA503BF.57069FD9@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7F4BCDD4F85307B3635C3C67" WHAT IS This?? conn60h wrote: From Roger, with love ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:10:19 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Just one position away ... Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/29/02 7:21 PM, Craig Parmerlee expounded thusly... > >> And, like Jiggs Whigham said, "If you play a wrong note, you're only one >> position away from a right note!" >> -- >> Walter Barrett > > I never heard that quote. Maybe Jiggs meant it a little in jest, but it is > literally true also. I heard Jiggs say that live and in person at the 1983 ITF in Nashville... -- Walter Barrett "ThereÕs more bad music in jazz than any other form. Maybe thatÕs because the audience doesnÕt really know whatÕs happening." -Pat Metheny Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:38:18 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: The Athletic Trombone Player Message-ID: <20020330013818.1294.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." wrote: > What we must remember always is that we're dealing > here with an art form, and the coordination that is > involved in executing that art form to the highest level > is quite involved. However, the problem that I see with > most players is that we don't want to tear our game apart > and put it back together. Perhaps it is an admission of > being weak, perhaps it is that we don't want to devote > the time and effort necessary in order to play on a > higher level. However, one fact remains--there are people > out there that refuse to accept the fact that there are > limits as to what they can do on the horn. Well put. I'm so grateful for the existence of this list...I really felt I had hit a brick wall in my playing a little over a year ago. I could mostly do what I needed to do, but I felt like some aspects were just never going to get better. I finally had the courage to abandon what I had been doing and try some new things - Caruso-style exercises from Sam's book, long tones a la Phil Teele - and I know I'm a MUCH better player than I was a year ago. Both those methods have their merits and made their contributions to my improvement, but the ultimate responsibility was still mine, and the most difficult part about it was to set aside the practice methods that I knew worked - to a point - and begin searching for something else that would work better and take me to a new level. For a professional musician, particularly a freelancer with little job security, that's a scary prospect. It can mean going to a gig or rehearsal and sounding bad. I'm fortunate to have a couple of tenured contracts, but those supply only a small fraction of my income. It was a leap off a cliff to go to a few rehearsals not really sure what was going to come out of my bell. Now that I've done it though, my confidence level is so much higher. Now I know I can get the job done well even when my chops feel a little wierd, and I also know that I'm still on the upward course of improvement. A brief story: periodically, when I was studying with Norman Bolter, I would come into a lesson and he would be playing something over & over, obsessing over a small detail, seeming to get angrier & angrier. The most memorable time, he had been working on his extreme high register for several weeks - I'm talking about fine control up to 2 octaves above middle C. Something had gotten out of balance in his embouchure, and a double buzz had crept into his low B-flat. Every time he played it, from either direction, it would buzz like crazy. When I walked in he was playing downward scales to the B-flat and every single one was buzzing. Obviously, the lesson to be learned was not "don't work on your extreme high register." But I was inspired that he would push his limits to the point where something a little strange would happen, and then work his way back, incorporating the new ability with all the old ones. I've said this before, but I think it's important. I'm more impressed by the notes that the best players miss when trying to do something extraordinary than I am by every note they play perfectly. The missed notes are the ones that inspire me to try to do those same extraordinary things. If Charlie Vernon can't do it the first time, or even the second time, and it comes out a little weakly the third time, and then strong and beautiful the fourth time, then I can go home and try the same thing, and maybe I won't get there at all that day, but I know it can be done if I keep trying. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 21:19:18 EST From: ALFORDMB@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Looking for music Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/29/2002 10:46:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, chuck@hickeys.com writes: > If I'm correct, the real name is "Kindergarten March." If so, it appears to > be available for about 7935.46 Iranian dollars (or $65 U.S.) (ballpark). the name on all my information is the Children's March, (1934) by Edwin Franco Goldman. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 03:09:21 -0000 From: "Keith Marr" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Just one position away ... Message-ID: <001b01c1d799$135b4040$e61b86d9@tiny> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Craig Had one of those nights on Thursday! Seriously, point taken, the way you describe the procedure is undoubtedly the way most folk actually, for all the theorizing. Keith ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Just one position away ... P.S. Of course this can cut both ways. On a bad day, I feel like I'm "one position away" on every *$#*%)*& note. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:12:13 -0800 From: jimandcat@juno.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: lowd bas trwambonists Message-ID: <20020329.191842.-513865.3.Jimandcat@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey, Don't get much time to catch up on these posts. This is an old one. I am sure you have tossed George Roberts, Doug Yeo, John Rojak, Blair Bollinger, Bill Reichenbach, Adrian Drover, David Taylor, and many others I cain't thank ov rat now into that catagarry. Those guys are probably reel turrible fram wat yu say.Gess them guys just plane stink. But I am only a bass trombone player, so what do I know. Jim Prindle ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 22:50:38 -0600 From: Angie Brunk To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: academicization of jazz was RE: improv blues Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Boy two posts in two days, this is a record for me of late. Take heart Jeff. Some university ensembles do still learn by ear. The International Vocal Ensemble sings "world music" which we learn by video and audio recordings of native musicians. We usually have at least one live informant each semester who teaches us thier music. Last week, we rehearsed with the Karelian folk music ensemble. Mary Goetze is our director. She established her repuatation as a music educator, arranger and conductor before establishing IVE. I'd say the strongest resistance to her methods come from students. I'm not quite sure what that says about my generation or the education system in general. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 00:30:03 -0800 From: Robin Eubanks To: Subject: RE: need help with some improv Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Good points by Paul and the practice system he adapted to trombone. I like that concept of starting with the basics and slowly expanding and applying them. I try to do that when I practice and when I teach. I also like the analogy of speech and conversation when applied to improvisation. I've been using it for the last few years when I teach beginning improv. I think two major stumbling blocks when learning to improvise are confidence and concentration. Obviously it's hard to have either when you don't feel comfortable taking a solo. For that reason I would suggest a compromise to completely writing out a solo. Although I'm not against that in the beginning. Getting a good running start to your solo is very important because it gives you confidence. If you play some "questionable" notes in the beginning of your solo you can get so caught up thinking, "Damn, that's not the note I meant to play", that you lose your concentration as the chords fly by like a bullet train. Working out the first phrase or two of your solo is not a bad alternative. Then you can play theme and variation with those ideas. Relating and quoting directly from the melody is also a good idea. The composer spent a lot of time choosing and editing which notes to use over the chords so you KNOW these notes work. I see DJ has been on here recently. He's been on my thread for a year or so. He's different! His delivery takes a little getting used to but beneath it all I've found him to be knowledgeable about the trombone and related things. I finally met him at a gig in St. Louis in January. He's a hippy straight out of the '60's. He's an artist who paints and collects instruments. As we left the club, he gave us a few blasts from his trombone from outside his truck in 15 degree weather! -Robin Visit my website at: http://www.robineubanks.com/ Hear complete songs at: http://www.mp3.com/robineubanks ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 01:07:12 -0800 From: Robin Eubanks To: Subject: One more thing :-) Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi, I just read the other digest (2343). I have to figure a better way to do this and I thank the several people that responded to my personal email with suggestions. I wanted to quickly add a couple points. I agree with Sam, that improvisation is the most natural thing that we ALL do... 24/7 Of course we're able to improvise in speech using English because we know the language and are fluent in it's use. My Spanish is "functional". I can basically say what I want, but my vocabuary is not large enough to understand many responses. So I can only improvise in Spanish in a limited manner. Some people are excellent at improvising using English. We call them poets, writers, etc. Some people are excellent improvising using the jazz language, we call them, Coltrane, Monk, JJ. Speaking of JJ - Steve Turre's next recording will be a tribute to JJ. It will feature Steve with a few guest 'bone players. Slide Hampton, Steve Davis and myself. We'll each play a couple pieces with Steve and do a few larger 'bone ensemble pieces. Slide is arranging one and he asked me to arrange one of Jay's compositions. He's also adding Joe Alessi to the ensemble and he'll be featured as a soloist on a written piece. Joe played on JJ's, "Brass Orchestra" recording. I remember hanging with him in Jay's dressing room at the Blue Note a few years back. Doug Purviance will play bass 'bone in the ensemble pieces. There will also be a great rhythm section. I'm looking forward to it. We record at the end of May. One last revision on my post regarding DJ. I don't know how knowledgeable he is about the trombone, but he knows a great deal about trombones. He knows WAY more than me about makes, models, serial numbers and design. -Robin Visit my website at: http://www.robineubanks.com/ Hear complete songs at: http://www.mp3.com/robineubanks ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 02:08:10 -0500 From: "Aaron Roth" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: lowd bas trwambonists Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Well, I'm sure they were referring to players like me in the original posts, not to consummately skilled musicians such as the ones you mention. Also, the problem happens almost only in big band, orchestra, and wind ensembles. You don't often hear a solo piece blatted out at orchestral fortissimo. I don't remember if anyone addressed that particular facet of the controversy. It would indeed be me to revive a buried can of worms. :) -Aaron Roth Hey, Don't get much time to catch up on these posts. This is an old one. I am sure you have tossed George Roberts, Doug Yeo, John Rojak, Blair Bollinger, Bill Reichenbach, Adrian Drover, David Taylor, and many others I cain't thank ov rat now into that catagarry. Those guys are probably reel turrible fram wat yu say.Gess them guys just plane stink. But I am only a bass trombone player, so what do I know. Jim Prindle _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 03:14:48 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" To: rdeubanks@earthlink.net Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: need help with some improv//robin eubanks gets it Message-ID: <3CA58207.E98DA63A@midwest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks !!!!!!!i resemble those remarks !!!!and now let me tell you about robins gig in st louie louie !!!!!!it is about improvising !!!!!! being a hick from the sticks i dont get to that many jazz sets but have honed my ear chops on dusty but i hope not forgotton lps -------most often in quietude and silent nights when time disappears and moments are forever----- on such a nite -a cold cold nite -in a place far away they came -- a girl ravishingly beautiful with a radiant light about her and wavy wavy er hair who is she ?????beatle bob was there -one of stlouis ''personalities' i think the clubs let him in for free ---well i was very anxious to meet robin and i found him in a little room trying to decipher the illigible manuscripts of some studio charts zip a du de dut de de de duh bead a beada be du du ---i knew i was interrupting and tried to fade into a cat or dog form to melt into nothingness so robincould get this riff down ------ never saw this stuff before the plane --he says-- claudia s trombone player has paper problems getting out of israel --this is my first gig with them ------------------------------------------------------------------------- and now from new york city --the home of the free and the brave we bringyou internationally acclaimed vocalist one of the brightest stars in the universe --------claudia acuna ----------- who else but the dazzling damsel herself ---in fact i am listening to her cd now wind from the south what a set of pipes !!!!the piano ---the piano -the piano -the piano --the piano-- is there any room at all and robin is standing way off to the side ---- 20 bucks to get in --do i care about some babe -ha i wanna hear the bone -- subconsciously -spinning like the flakes of ice and frozen leaves ---in my mind after an eternity of warm up numbers and soft back ground playing robin launched into an incredible exposition that perhaps didnt exactly fit the genre of ms acunas structure ---but the astounding explorations were an introduction more about robin and a way of introducing himself and the looks of astonishment from the band at such a virtuoso display clued them in that this impeccibly groomed man was indeed one of jazzdoms first and foremost usually with his own group they knew that they were in for a special special treat -the luxury of the best like the old bentley only that runs a little more maybe or wearing nina gancis couture clothing ------ into your imagination that fill the worlds --and be free and see it like a dream of paradise --your imagination the first solo -----the hardest -a new band -new material -never seen --never played ---- new guy in the band ------ intricate and harmonically challenging -- this is all about improv ----this is when all the years of training and practice boil down to a few notes --------- i knew that robin was adjusting listening getting used to the piano players chord language ---and this new york cat was deep deep deep into his thing if you have ever worked on on one with a monster keyboard cruncher you know that can be tough indeed ----------and claudia was incredibly tight with his changes this is the new language ---the new world ---rejoyce in the ever renewing cycle of life death and awaken to heightened consciousness i was drawing drawing drawing bruce and a friend also were there-------- salsa number -she is argentine ---incredible --man -i am making beautiful drawings here is the chart that robin was working on -synchronized scatting with claudia down scale and he is reading this off a stand --incredible ---- it is one thing to have the chance to rehearse and practice but this is the real test that life gives us sometimes ----no chance to rehearse so improvise we must the test of our time --- how to be ---- the paths we chose robin took one spectacular long solo that i heard every trombone player that ever lived in ----it was like one long breath -one forever moment --he took time and had finally relaxed tiger woods into everything and the flow was fantastic ---then he paused but i knew he could have gone on forever in that infinite buddabliss state and blow forevertime --my life was changed infinitely ----thanks ----- about robins horn--it looks like gerry mulligans bari -worn and smooth a yamahs heavy red sym bell -a sterling pipe --and a special made lever that pulls with robins finger instead of thumb -- he plays all over the horn ----to really hear the most excellent full bone he has an a capella solo on his cd --get to it-----which features the electric bone in that one piece he goes beyond classical beyond jazz and trancends the fray ----hurray for robin eubanks !!!!!!!! and thanks for blessing my mouthpiece and for everything else too my 1956 holton strat slide was froze solid --- Robin Eubanks wrote: > Good points by Paul and the practice system he adapted to trombone. I like > that concept of starting with the basics and slowly expanding and applying > them. I try to do that when I practice and when I teach. > > I also like the analogy of speech and conversation when applied to > improvisation. I've been using it for the last few years when I teach > beginning improv. > > I think two major stumbling blocks when learning to improvise are > confidence and concentration. Obviously it's hard to have either when you > don't feel comfortable taking a solo. > For that reason I would suggest a compromise to completely writing out a > solo. Although I'm not against that in the beginning. > > Getting a good running start to your solo is very important because it gives > you confidence. > If you play some "questionable" notes in the beginning of your solo you can > get so caught up thinking, "Damn, that's not the note I meant to play", that > you lose your concentration as the chords fly by like a bullet train. > Working out the first phrase or two of your solo is not a bad alternative. > Then you can play theme and variation with those ideas. Relating and quoting > directly from the melody is also a good idea. The composer spent a lot of > time choosing and editing which notes to use over the chords so you KNOW > these notes work. > > I see DJ has been on here recently. He's been on my thread for a year or so. > He's different! > His delivery takes a little getting used to but beneath it all I've found > him to be knowledgeable about the trombone and related things. I finally met > him at a gig in St. Louis in January. > He's a hippy straight out of the '60's. He's an artist who paints and > collects instruments. As we left the club, he gave us a few blasts from his > trombone from outside his truck in 15 degree weather! > > -Robin > > Visit my website at: http://www.robineubanks.com/ > Hear complete songs at: http://www.mp3.com/robineubanks ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:19:18 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Musical Profanity (Wrong notes?) Message-ID: <009d01c1d7c4$a10a8e70$e88afc3e@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Walter Barrett" And, like Jiggs Whigham said, "If you play a wrong note, you're only one position away from a right note!" ======================================= But what is a wrong note? One of my favourite jazz musicians once told me "You can play any note against any chord". It's only wrong if it's prepared or departed incorrectly. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:20:13 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Musical Profanity (Altered Intervals) Message-ID: <009e01c1d7c4$a2e5de20$e88afc3e@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Mike Mathews" > I guess that profane (i.e. "ugly") is in the ear of the beholder (just as > beauty is in the eye of ...). Some folk like lots of tension and some > don't. If you don't like the sound of something like C7b9 or C7b13, Certainly nothing profane about these, even when both of the lowered intervals are found in the same chord. They are merely the minor key equivalent of C9 and C13. And it is quite common in jazz (and even classical) music to find these lowered notes in major keys. Blues style wouldn't be blues style without them. I've recently seen this type of harmony described as "modal interchange". Russel Garcia in his "Professional Arranger Composer" describes them as "pretty notes". > you > shoulkd go way out of your way to avoid something like C7 Alt (i.e. C7, > b9, #9, #11, b13). That one is REAL tense!! Again, this depends on how the chord is voiced. If the altered notes are stacked in 4ths in the top part of the chord (eg. from bass to top, C, E, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb), they can sound quite beautiful. You can even put a G (natural or perfect 5th) in there between C and E, and it doesn't interfere with either the Ab or Gb. Just makes the bass of the chord sound a little thicker. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 01:37:22 -0700 From: Dave Tall To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: the ugly bass trombonist Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020330013722.030f4730@mail.comcast.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'm sure it's no news to anyone that many bass trombonists joke about this all the time. For me it's maybe 60% laughing at the stereotype, 30% chagrin that the stereotype has so much basis in reality, and 10% personal shame ;) We were doing Ravel's Rapsodie Espagnole a couple of weeks ago. In the first rehearsal, in a room we play in perhaps once a year or less, the (guest) conductor asked me for more in a bar with a glissando, which is played by only bass trombone and third trumpet. On the rerun of that section, I gave (what I thought was) a bit more, and the conductor stopped a few bars later and said, laughing, something like "I should know better than to ask a bass trombonist to give more." Laughs from all of the orchestra. I ask for clarification, and he says that he wants it brought out, but further back in the texture than I just played it. OK, thanks, that's why we have these little pre-concert meetings. But he clearly was familiar with the stereotype. Just before our next entrance, I say to our second trombonist, "I'm just a f****** pig, aren't I?" Neither of us can play for laughing. Continuing on that riff, during the next rests, I tell him that it's not really my fault, it's a requirement for your Bass Trombonist's Operator license that you have no musical taste. He quickly replies, "What about Randy Hawes? How did he get in?" "Affirmative action." What's the dynamic range of the bass trombone? On and off. Last week I played Tchaik 5. After the concert, I ran into a good friend and fine hornist backstage. His first comment? "Well, I could really hear you!" There's a spot in the second movement (all you bass trombonists know it intimately) where you play a seemingly loosely-related-to-anything-else fanfare triplet on bottom space A, with only the bassoons. In the beat where the triplet occurs (this happens 3 times), everyone else is silent except for an ongoing tremolo in the cellos and basses. The entire orchestra has been playing FF or FFF before the triplet, and will enter at that volume the beat after. The conductor made it clear that he wanted the volume to match the orchestral FF it fits into. Bassoons, when you get down to it, don't make a lot of noise. This fellow is a fine musician, a fine hornist, and a good friend. I felt a pang in my stomach when he said it, although I knew then and now that he meant it as a compliment. Why didn't he comment on the extreme soft playing I did in a couple of first movement licks with the woodwinds and pizz strings? What about the fine blend I think I produced with the rest of the section and tuba? Partly admiration/being impressed by the volume and color, and partly the sterotype, I think. Would he say to a principal trumpeter, referring to the opening of Mahler 5, "Well, I could really hear you!"? Of course, the trumpeter got to play a MELODY, and we bass trombonists take what little scraps are left after the dog finishes with the table scraps ;) I think it's partly a "man bites dog" thing. Soft playing or section playing which fits in with everything else, an appropriate part of the whole ("If you heard (noticed) me, I didn't do my job." EK), is the norm in orchestral playing. Something really commanding, arresting, from a bass trombone is out of the ordinary. It's also partly an excitement thing. Hearing someone play loud, with an appropriate sound, is viscerally exciting. I still remember hearing Doc Severinson play a solo with a massed brass choir at the Int'l Brass Festival at IU in 1984. He was up against an everyone-come-play choir, easily 200+. He SOARED over them. Seemingly effortlessly. With a great sound, a great style, and conviction. I felt like I was witnessing another species play the trumpet, his sound was so PROJECTING. It was certainly exciting. I was VERY glad I decided not to play in the choir; I wouldn't have been able to hear that from the business end otherwise. The first time I heard Juan Pablo Torres play live, I had the same feeling. Here was a sound, raw, personal, and deep, which he could use as he wished, and it just penetrated right into you. It was so clearly him, that (in my brief exposure) there's no way he could want to play any other way. WAY exciting. Maynard concerts in the '70s and '80s? His power and assertiveness were like a drug. I heard the Basie ghost band a couple of weeks ago. The dynamic range, and unanimity of dynamic change, and blend, were stunning. And they could play LOUD with a great sound and blend and style, like a fleet of synchronized busses running over you. Except that it felt good! (note that except for Maynard, all the examples above were unmiked or very minimally miked.) Loud playing is a tool, just one of many in the toolbox. Keep it sharp, pull it out whenever it's required, but don't get into some Corky-and-Fats relationship with it. Why do bass trombonists have this reputation? I think it's partly because it's difficult to control the sound of the instrument when playing loud. It takes almost all of us quite a while to learn how to do it. I find it easier to play obliteratingly loud (in volume AND color, very important point) on bass than I do on tenor or alto. And I'm a significantly less refined player of those instruments than I am of bass, and have less control over the color I'm producing. The bass trombone just has that capability, I think. Plus, the instrument is more physically demanding than tenor, particularly in terms of maximum airflow rate. Add these together, and I think it's just EASIER to play ugly-loud-low on bass than on most any other instrument. And it takes more time to explore that aspect and learn to control it. I wouldn't doubt that many bass trombonists ARE bass trombonists because they're drawn to the sound and the tessitura and the power. It's a different set of colors than I use at my work (generally played on a different instrument), but I really get jacked listening to a great big band bass trombonist laying down the bottom in a shout chorus with a great bari sax player. I'm drawn to it. The first time I heard a bass trombone was hearing one of the DC service big bands on tour to our extremely small-town high school. It made an impression. I had never seen one or heard one live before, and something about it grabbed me. Jim Prindle made a starter list of fine, musical bass trombonists. Of course they exist. There are many others besides his list. I think most everyone who plays the instrument at a "semi-pro" or higher level (whatever THAT may mean) is. It's a culling process, if nothing else. If they always used inappropriate volume and color, they wouldn't get work, and you wouldn't hear them. So remember, Spider-Man fan bass trombonists, with great power comes great responsibility! Dave Tall Bass Trombonist New Mexico Symphony ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:39:54 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Just one position away ... Message-ID: <00e401c1d7cf$17afbdc0$e88afc3e@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Keith Marr" > P.S. Of course this can cut both ways. On a bad day, I feel like I'm "one > position away" on every *$#*%)*& note. ??? Is that a new jazz scale ??? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:14:16 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Just one position away ... Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020330081316.00b6d9a0@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:39 AM 3/30/2002 +0000, Adrian Drover wrote: From: "Keith Marr" > P.S. Of course this can cut both ways. On a bad day, I feel like I'm "one > position away" on every *$#*%)*& note. ??? Is that a new jazz scale ??? Why, I think you are correct. I'm going to name it the Drover scale. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:10:43 -0500 From: "Wessner, John" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Musical Profanity (Wrong notes and scales) Message-ID: content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'm going to defend the scale teachers (but not learn too many of the scales). I'm doing this, because now that jazz has been academicized, scales have pretty much won out over changes. I'm pretty much a diatonic guy and often a slow learner. However, if you need to understand the chord progression in one of the late Hank Levy's charts, you need to understand the alterations in the line. (I usually don't.) Lately I've been spending some time with a rehearsal small group at the Peabody, all of whom are younger than my children. It's very clear to me that I shall have to stay away from any of my usual improv lines - they clash. I can fit, but I have to rehearse the concept; something, that as a long-time session player, I find offensive. On this same note (or scale), I saw for what to me was the first time a notation of a chord letter with a superscript delta. I asked what it was and was told that it meant a major chord - as if I should have known. Does the use of the delta indicate that the preferred scale is diatonic? (For the record, it looked a lot like an "o" for diminished on the first pass, but it obviously wasn't.) jw -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Drover [mailto:slide.rule@adios.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 3:19 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Musical Profanity (Wrong notes?) From: "Walter Barrett" And, like Jiggs Whigham said, "If you play a wrong note, you're only one position away from a right note!" ======================================= But what is a wrong note? One of my favourite jazz musicians once told me "You can play any note against any chord". It's only wrong if it's prepared or departed incorrectly. A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 11:36:18 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Musical Profanity (Wrong notes and scales) Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020330112604.02192b58@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:10 AM 3/30/2002 -0500, Wessner, John wrote: On this same note (or scale), I saw for what to me was the first time a notation of a chord letter with a superscript delta. I asked what it was and was told that it meant a major chord - as if I should have known. Does the use of the delta indicate that the preferred scale is diatonic? (For the record, it looked a lot like an "o" for diminished on the first pass, but it obviously wasn't.) Yeah, there are several different dialects, and none are very well thought out. They all are visually ambiguous if the handwriting is not perfect. And then when you get those cute jazz fonts, as in Finale, that makes the computer generated stuff as hard to read as bad handwriting, but it looks cool. (The jazz font Finale provides these days has fairly clean lines for the notes and accidentals, but the articulations are really sloppy, especially the hard accent. And the Jazz text font looks good for the obvious stuff -- "plunger", "a Tempo", etc -- but I think it is really a bad choice for the chord spelling. In particular, "M" looks almost like "m" so that forces you to decide to spell out one or the other -- as in Amin7. That clutters up the score and makes it hard for anybody trying to sightread. Another case where getting overly cute is the wrong answer.) The "delta" has been around a long time. I usually see it in the context of Maj7 or Maj9. Usually it is written with the 7 or 9. If it is by itself, it is unclear whether a simple triad is intended. I assume that a delta by itself means Maj7, because in this symbolic shorthand, the chord name without any suffix means the simple major triad. Later, Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:00:49 -0500 From: "Dale J. Cruse" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Musical Profanity (Wrong notes and scales) Message-ID: <001701c1d80c$73b0ac50$0302a8c0@desktop> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Craig, John, and everyone, The use of the "delta" symbol after a chord in jazz is generally accepted to mean the major seventh chord. Books by leading jazz educators like Jamey Aebersold and David Baker (among others) agree on this. However, let the situation be your guide. Different composers may mean different things by the same symbol, much as the term "forte" means one thing for Mozart, but quite another for Wagner. If a set of changes is filled with just "deltas," you can generally assume that major seventh is the sound the composer is going after. However, if a chart is mostly "delta" 7s, and then a chord is specifically just marked "delta," I'd recommened going after just the triad on the latter. On the other hand, if it's a George Russell-type tune and I saw a major chord symbol, I would go with the Lydian sound. That's just his thing. Good luck all. Dale J. Cruse dale@dalecruse.com www.dalecruse.com Professional sites for professional people. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Parmerlee" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 11:36 AM Subject: RE: Musical Profanity (Wrong notes and scales) > At 11:10 AM 3/30/2002 -0500, Wessner, John wrote: > >On this same note (or scale), I saw for what to me was the first time a > >notation of a chord letter with a superscript delta. I asked what it was > >and was told that it meant a major chord - as if I should have > >known. Does the use of the delta indicate that the preferred scale is > >diatonic? (For the record, it looked a lot like an "o" for diminished on > >the first pass, but it obviously wasn't.) > > Yeah, there are several different dialects, and none are very well thought > out. They all are visually ambiguous if the handwriting is not > perfect. And then when you get those cute jazz fonts, as in Finale, that > makes the computer generated stuff as hard to read as bad handwriting, but > it looks cool. > > (The jazz font Finale provides these days has fairly clean lines for the > notes and accidentals, but the articulations are really sloppy, especially > the hard accent. And the Jazz text font looks good for the obvious stuff > -- "plunger", "a Tempo", etc -- but I think it is really a bad choice for > the chord spelling. In particular, "M" looks almost like "m" so that > forces you to decide to spell out one or the other -- as in Amin7. That > clutters up the score and makes it hard for anybody trying to > sightread. Another case where getting overly cute is the wrong answer.) > > The "delta" has been around a long time. I usually see it in the context > of Maj7 or Maj9. Usually it is written with the 7 or 9. If it is by > itself, it is unclear whether a simple triad is intended. I assume that a > delta by itself means Maj7, because in this symbolic shorthand, the chord > name without any suffix means the simple major triad. > > Later, > Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:34:23 -0600 From: "D.J. Kennedy" To: jwessner@towson.edu Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: alternative new age and slide trips dirrefent drummers Message-ID: <3CA6052F.BC127196@midwest.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit returning to college for the third time and buying a humble abode -- needed a roomie from time to time -----one of the several roomies - was a photo//movie major //guitar genius//composer ---steve baker --- silmultaneouly at school --a combo class with real book --was attended the contrast could not have been greater between ----real and memorex the rhythmic complexity and downright unguessable chord progressions that followed new alien x logic was steves forte ---the jump from coman hawkins to bird -to coltrane--to miles to ornette -- the tronbonal approach was improvised classical on a valve section fitted with a mellophone bell -----the tronbone --[get it tron --the movie]] lyrical flowing perfect center -no vibrato --theme variation--- to odd metered segments ---complete key feel changes at the potato eaters show in st louis newest and hottest gallery --mad art---- farshied ethnico -------played a set very early but the massive and extremely well dressed hungry buying pieces like money was no object art and culture crowd hung late --my accompianist on accordian angie jany --broke the strap on her scandalli and split to an affair d'amour leaving me to face 5 third world skin beaters ----and the people danced this went on for about three hours ---skins and bone --- rhythms ---rhythms --max roach--elvin jones --padhamasa kirtamundi takana -kawakami --ali muhmmad ---uobo mbgwan --- 4 4 ///////////no way horrns used on the gig --reynolds sterling [polka set] bought out of steve shires showroom and a bach 16 g dually w lt slide ---after 3 hours on the dually and 6 1/2 al it began to feel like a much bigger horn --- steve baker did a short 16mm and we did the soundtrack -firedance -- we also did lots of parties and got hired for frat parties and rode around on old three speeds with our axes strapped on ---- the big trombone universe is not limited to bop just as painting did not stop with the impressionists climb the mountains in sedona on the full moon for the drum circle take your horn --- oh yeah gallery scene /owner said i need help getting the worthy partons to leave ok ----happy trails -in the style of sammy kaye that will clear a room of trendies real fast ..... unless they are retro trendies ---of course Wessner, John wrote: > I'm going to defend the scale teachers (but not learn too many of the scales). I'm doing this, because now that jazz has been academicized, scales have pretty much won out over changes. > > I'm pretty much a diatonic guy and often a slow learner. However, if you need to understand the chord progression in one of the late Hank Levy's charts, you need to understand the alterations in the line. (I usually don't.) Lately I've been spending some time with a rehearsal small group at the Peabody, all of whom are younger than my children. It's very clear to me that I shall have to stay away from any of my usual improv lines - they clash. I can fit, but I have to rehearse the concept; something, that as a long-time session player, I find offensive. > > On this same note (or scale), I saw for what to me was the first time a notation of a chord letter with a superscript delta. I asked what it was and was told that it meant a major chord - as if I should have known. Does the use of the delta indicate that the preferred scale is diatonic? (For the record, it looked a lot like an "o" for diminished on the first pass, but it obviously wasn't.) > jw > > -----Original Message----- > From: Adrian Drover [mailto:slide.rule@adios.co.uk] > Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 3:19 AM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Re: Musical Profanity (Wrong notes?) > > From: "Walter Barrett" > > And, like Jiggs Whigham said, "If you play a wrong note, you're only one > position away from a right note!" > ======================================= > > But what is a wrong note? One of my favourite jazz musicians once told me > "You can play any note against any chord". It's only wrong if it's prepared > or departed incorrectly. > > A. > > Adrian Drover > ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk > Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344 Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 12:22:41 -0500 From: "Wessner, John" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Musical Profanity (Wrong notes and scales) Message-ID: content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Two things: Most of the chord symbols I see, I wrote. So I'm frequently learning new language when I see someone else's work. Secondly, I gathered that it meant just the triad, which, of course, no piano player could bring himself to play. That's why I thought it might have come along with the scale model. I wouldn't know about the books; I've learned on the front line. jw -----Original Message----- From: Dale J. Cruse [mailto:dale@dalecruse.com] Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 12:01 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Musical Profanity (Wrong notes and scales) Dear Craig, John, and everyone, The use of the "delta" symbol after a chord in jazz is generally accepted to mean the major seventh chord. Books by leading jazz educators like Jamey Aebersold and David Baker (among others) agree on this. However, let the situation be your guide. Different composers may mean different things by the same symbol, much as the term "forte" means one thing for Mozart, but quite another for Wagner. If a set of changes is filled with just "deltas," you can generally assume that major seventh is the sound the composer is going after. However, if a chart is mostly "delta" 7s, and then a chord is specifically just marked "delta," I'd recommened going after just the triad on the latter. On the other hand, if it's a George Russell-type tune and I saw a major chord symbol, I would go with the Lydian sound. That's just his thing. Good luck all. Dale J. Cruse dale@dalecruse.com www.dalecruse.com Professional sites for professional people. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Parmerlee" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 11:36 AM Subject: RE: Musical Profanity (Wrong notes and scales) > At 11:10 AM 3/30/2002 -0500, Wessner, John wrote: > >On this same note (or scale), I saw for what to me was the first time a > >notation of a chord letter with a superscript delta. I asked what it was > >and was told that it meant a major chord - as if I should have > >known. Does the use of the delta indicate that the preferred scale is > >diatonic? (For the record, it looked a lot like an "o" for diminished on > >the first pass, but it obviously wasn't.) > > Yeah, there are several different dialects, and none are very well thought > out. They all are visually ambiguous if the handwriting is not > perfect. And then when you get those cute jazz fonts, as in Finale, that > makes the computer generated stuff as hard to read as bad handwriting, but > it looks cool. > > (The jazz font Finale provides these days has fairly clean lines for the > notes and accidentals, but the articulations are really sloppy, especially > the hard accent. And the Jazz text font looks good for the obvious stuff > -- "plunger", "a Tempo", etc -- but I think it is really a bad choice for > the chord spelling. In particular, "M" looks almost like "m" so that > forces you to decide to spell out one or the other -- as in Amin7. That > clutters up the score and makes it hard for anybody trying to > sightread. Another case where getting overly cute is the wrong answer.) > > The "delta" has been around a long time. I usually see it in the context > of Maj7 or Maj9. Usually it is written with the 7 or 9. If it is by > itself, it is unclear whether a simple triad is intended. I assume that a > delta by itself means Maj7, because in this symbolic shorthand, the chord > name without any suffix means the simple major triad. > > Later, > Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2344--