TROMBONE-L Digest 2335 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Ten Ways to Play Appropriate Volume by Craig Parmerlee 2) Why is it Loud? by "Kathy-Green -TJ" 3) Re: Wycliffe Gordon at ETW by PCtrombone@aol.com 4) Oscars (fwd) by "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" 5) Re: Why is it Loud? by "Daniel Pliskin" 6) RE: Wycliffe Gordon at ETW by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 7) Re: Why is it Loud? by Craig Parmerlee 8) Re: Oscars (fwd) by Gabriel Langfur 9) why is alto so loud? by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 10) RE: why is alto so loud? by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 11) RE: Wycliffe Gordon at ETW by "Daniel Pliskin" 12) At the movies by "Tom C. Shaddox" 13) Teagarden's Prelude in G by "Tom C. Shaddox" 14) Re: At the movies by "Matthew Stoecker" 15) RE: Oscars (fwd) by "Tom Izzo" 16) Bud Powell Recordings by "John Reifel" 17) Which instruments change pitch most? by Craig Parmerlee 18) Re: Bud Powell Recordings by ALFORDMB@aol.com 19) Appropriate volume by "Edwards Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared" 20) Conn 110H versus Bach 50 by "Richard Johnson" 21) Re: Conn 110H versus Bach 50 by Gabriel Langfur 22) Re: why is alto so loud? by Gabriel Langfur 23) Re: Which instruments change pitch most? by "Daniel Pliskin" 24) RE: why is alto so loud? by Gabriel Langfur 25) Nasty Ugly Sound by John & Mary 26) Re: Nasty Ugly Sound by "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." 27) Re: Ten Ways to Play Appropriate Volume by Mike Mathews 28) Re: Which instruments change pitch most? by Craig Parmerlee 29) Re: Nasty Ugly Sound by Craig Parmerlee 30) Re: Which instruments change pitch most? by "Adrian Drover" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:33:39 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Ten Ways to Play Appropriate Volume Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020320131859.00b34d40@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:47 PM 3/20/2002 -0500, BJMCHAFFIE@aol.com wrote: --snip-- My wife complains that she can't hear me over the bass bone. She also says that there is no blend. Bass man tells me that his lip is not in condition so he can not play all the time that he is supposed to. I believe that if he paid attention to dynamics and blend, the problem with ebouchure not being adequate nor getting too tired to continue through three verses and choruses would go away. He is simply blowing too much and has lost his ability to regulate what he is doing with the bass. There is that, and there is also the thing that players don't seem to practice playing quietly. Everybody seems to want to train themselves to blow the walls down (with equipment optimized for that purpose). How many times have we heard fawning comments like "he had such a huge sound", as if the purpose of music is to permanently ruin everyone's hearing? Just try to get a true ppp with a full tone out of an ensemble. Most groups can't do it. Loud is easy. Gentle, subtle, and expressive are hard. That "loud for loudness' sake" is so pervasive these days, I wear earplugs every single time I have a horn in my hand in ensemble. When I was growing up, my favorite conductor would begin many pieces with the comment "you're already too loud" before the first note. He forced us to find the music that exists between the impulses of blastissimo noise. It is the difference between an audience sitting on the edge of their seats versus an audience running for cover. Later, Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 10:49:12 -0800 From: "Kathy-Green -TJ" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Why is it Loud? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit My own personal opinion is that it is so easy to "blatt" on a bass trombone that when (especially young) players discover they can do it, it becomes a "fun thing" - and therefore they begin to play loud all the time if allowed to do so. I have a recording of the jazz band from my previous teaching position where the bass trombonist took everything down an octave and played it really loud. I remember glaring at him during the performance and I threatened to kick him off stage if he did it again during the concert. It is just like whenever there is a percussion instrument anywhere around, normally sane people lose their good sense and begin hitting it. Well, at least under the age of 18. I have seen some very good young trombonists who were played quite tastefully, reserved, and played with good tone and sensitivity lose all control when they pick up a bass trombone. I remember in college there were 3 of us who would get into these blatting contests. I always lost (which I suppose really means I won!) Kathy Green, Band Director Thomas Jefferson High School "Iâve never known a musician who regretted being one. Whatever deceptions life may have in store for you, music itself is not going to let you down." Virgil Thomson ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:33:34 EST From: PCtrombone@aol.com To: murrayr@vt.edu, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Wycliffe Gordon at ETW Message-ID: <50.8661cf7.29ca3e0e@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_50.8661cf7.29ca3e0e_boundary" Hello List! This is the first time I have ever written to the list. I have been enjoying all the list news and opinions for years now. The recent discussion of Wycliffe Gordon at the ETW has inspired me to give my 2 cents. I was at the ETW and I sat in the front row for the Army Blues Concert with Wycliffe. I couldn't disagree more with anyone who walked away from that concert with a negative opinion of Wycliffe's performance. Did Wycliffe play loud? He certainly did. Was that the only memorable characteristic of the performance? Not at all.Ê I walked away from that concert feeling great. Not only because I heard a great performance, but because I heard a trombone artist that I feel is redefining the instrument. I think Wycliffe can reach people with his playing. The general opinion of the trombone is low, particularly the jazz trombone. I think Wycliffe plays so convincing and colorful that he can reach the general audience and bring the trombone back to the forefront of jazz. Wycliffe played loud. I never felt that he played with a bad sound and I didn't hear one cracked note all night. He has a ton of air and he used it with authority. It was incredibly controlled and soulful. It is obvious that he has great ears and an amazing concept. Just think about the logistics. He wasn't playing with a trio or quartet. He was playing with one of the best jazz Big bands in the country. He was backed by 17 wonderful musicians who play with guts and great sounds. I think Wycliffe played appropriately to the situation. I know Joe Alessi and Christian Lindberg play differently in front of an orchestra than they do in front of a piano.Ê His volume was impressive but there was so much more that was impressive too. Wycliffe arranged most or all of the music. The charts were great and he gave all the band members a chance to blow. There was tremendous interplay between soloist and band. There was some Ellington and Basie, some originals and classics from Gershwin and Carmichael. The band was inspired by his great artistry and they did turn it up. If the bone players in the band had a little grit in their sound it was because they were blowing on a greasy New Orleans Blues tune. There is nothing wrong with playing a little raw when the situation is appropriate. The entire Army Blues trombone section showed their tremendous talent and versatility on the first part of the concert. Wycliffe added variety to the program by performing a totally improvised unaccompanied composition. Did he play full force when he was by himself? No. Did he display incredible range, flexibility, technique and soul? Absolutely! Did he show his command of improvisation and extended techniques? Absolutely! Wycliffe has a tremendous jazz vocabulary. It is obvious that he has studied the jazz tradition and he is taking it to the next level. This is all just my opinion, but I am sad to hear that some felt that Wycliffe didn't play well. He played great and I didn't ever hear him play ugly. We should be excited by great players who are opening doors for our instrument. I love the trombone and I think there are players walking the planet today that are going to change opinions. On my list are Joe Alessi, Christian Lindberg, Dave Taylor and Wycliffe Gordon. It wasn't that long ago that Gary Burton labeled the trombone a dead axe that would be out of jazz in a few years. I think Wycliffe Gordon made it clear that the trombone is alive and kicking. Paul Compton ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:33:58 -0500 (EST) From: "Dr. Carole Nowicke, Applied Health Science" To: tpin , Trombone-l Subject: Oscars (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII People always ask: who was playing... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 09:51:48 -0800 From: Jim Self Subject: Oscars Hello Family and Friends, After 28 years in LA I'm finally doing the Academy Awards this week, Sunday March 24th. John Williams is the leader and we'll have a full orchestra (on camera for some of it). It is the largest orchestra ever for the Oscars and it will be in the new Kodak Theater in Hollywood. The musicians are John's first call players for his movies and records. The brass players are: Trumpets: Malcolm McNab, Warren Luening, Jon Lewis, Tim Morrison Horns, Jim Thatcher, Brian O'Conner, Dave Duke, Rick Todd Trombones: Bill Booth, Andy Malloy, George Thatcher I'm the fat guy on the end with the Tuba (and Bass Trombone). Woodwinds include great jazz men Pete Christlieb, Gary Foster, Dan Higgins, and great classical players: Emily Bernstein, Clarinet; Louise DiTullio, Flute; John Ellis, Oboe; Mike O'Donovan, Bassoon Rhythm includes: Harvey Mason, Drums; Randy Kerber, Brian Pezzone, Keyboards; Neil Stubenhaus, Elec. Bass Large String section with Andre Granat, Concertmaster. Music will play a prominent role in this years ceremony. Best to you all, Jim ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 19:48:15 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Why is it Loud? Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I mostly play trombone in my studio, in the garage, and I love the sound of a trombone played especially quietly. That doesnât keep my family from complaining about how loud the trombone is, but perhaps thatâs another issue. All this talk, about how fun it is to play a bass trombone loud, has started making me want one. I guess I should learn my F-attachment, before I go out and spend lots of money, though. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:42:13 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: murrayr@vt.edu, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Wycliffe Gordon at ETW Message-ID: <81F62454EA21B94EA95517180D7303730243F928@lee-is-102.lee.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1D04F.B705A9C0" I had not heard Wycliffe before this. I came away impressed and I enjoyed that concert.Ê It was not the loud playing that did that for me. Yes, I noticed! I didn't know you COULD play the trombone that loud, particularly for so long. I doubt he needed the mike at all, certainly much of the time I was hearing him acoustically and not amplified. He also played very high, and neither high nor loud particularly moves me.Ê But I did think he played in a more accessible style, more melodic, shorter and more harmonic phrases, less of that extremely fast, extremely technical, and overly complicated chord structure playing that we normally see when name jazz artists play there. It may be a somewhat commercial approach, giving the audience what they want, like a classical orchestra playing 1812 and William Tell; maybe it was a pops version of jazz. In that case the fact that I liked it speaks to my lack of sophistication. Maybe that's what Sam meant by "playing down to the audience." I guess you need a balance, ...but! I quite often leave those concerts early, because I can only take so much of a trombone imitating a sax imitating a keyboard - whoops that sounds negative, and I don't mean it that way. I do appreciate the artistry that goes into that, I just don't like listening to it for very long.Ê I heard Harry Watters play with his Dixieland group. I really like that stuff. Mostly he played traditional and smooth into a mike,and I loved it; occasionally he played REALLY LOUD, and occasionally he played that really modern really fast stuff only he can do, and I don't like because to me it's not Dixie. I don't know how he, and Wycliffe, and Jack Kenny on alto, can push a horn so hard and not break up into sizzle. It is like a sustained blat, but not a frakk, I can't do that.ÊÊÊÊ -----Original Message----- From: Rick Murray [mailto:murrayr@vt.edu] Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 9:12 AM To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Wycliffe Gordon at ETW I came away from the Wycliffe Gordon show at ETW with a completely different take than Sam. > Case in point...at the Eastern Trombone Workshop Friday night > Wycliffe Gordon played w/the Army Blues Band. Now I'm not writing > this top put Wycliffe or anyone else down...I've played w/Wycliffe > and know how good he can sound...but that night, he was, in my > opinion, playing down to the audience; not playing at the level of > which he's capable, and worst of all...using his ability to play loud > as a substitute for his ability to play well. > > And the sound(s) that were coming out of his horn were UGGGGLY as > a result. He's big, he's strong, he's young, and he can play louder > than his horn can take. It was louder than I could take as well. > > In the Army Blues band are two REALLY good players, Matt Neiss and > Harry Watters, who rarely play loud as soloists at all,,,in fact, > they often use TOO much mike for my taste. That night they both took > up the gauntlet that Wycliffe had thrown down and tried to match him > in volume, and the sounds coming out of their horns when they did > this were UGGGGLY SQUARED to my ears. In the first half before Wycliffe came on, the Army Blues were excellent. Others have commented that the sound system of this band tends to be bad. On their home turf it was balanced and all sections sounded good. My only complaint was with the sound of the miked trombone solos. They were muffled and because of that, less interesting. When Wycliffe played, he did not use a mike. He played loud at times, but it was at an appropriate level, bringing the band up to a much higher excitement level. Matt and Harry responded to the new level with exciting responses, perhaps less refined than their earlier efforts. Wycliffe's loudness was just right to be heard above the band. If it was "UGGGGLY" to some, it wasn't to the huge audience. They loved it. There was a tremendous standing ovation. Rick Murray ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:57:01 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Why is it Loud? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020320154535.02174570@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:49 AM 3/20/2002 -0800, Kathy-Green -TJ wrote: My own personal opinion is that it is so easy to "blatt" on a bass trombone that when (especially young) players discover they can do it, it becomes a "fun thing" - and therefore they begin to play loud all the time if allowed to do so. I have a recording of the jazz band from my previous teaching position where the bass trombonist took everything down an octave and played it really loud. I remember glaring at him during the performance and I threatened to kick him off stage if he did it again during the concert. 25 years ago, it was uncommon to even have a bass trombone in the school band. If a person took up the bass it was usually later in their musical career when hopefully they had acquired some good musical judgment. These days, I'm betting the scene you described goes on in at least 80% of the high school band rooms around the country. I get a fair amount of exposure to different programs and to me, it looks like the norm, not the exception. What is exceptional in your case is that the band director stood up and stopped those bad habits while the student was still in the formative stage. Most band teachers either care too little, don't hear well enough to, or don't have enough musical judgement themselves to correct these antisocial musical behaviors. Kudos to you for taking a stand. If the student was wise enough to accept your advice, he immediately jumped ahead of 80% of his colleagues. Cheers, Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:17:19 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Oscars (fwd) Message-ID: <20020320211719.33632.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > The brass players are: > Trumpets: Malcolm McNab, Speaking of Malcolm McNab, he sounds absolutely beautiful on the soundtrack of the movie "The Last Castle", which I rented this weekend. Better movie than I expected, if a little heavy-handed, and like I said, the solo trumpet playing is gorgeous. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:16:24 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: why is alto so loud? Message-ID: <81F62454EA21B94EA95517180D7303730243F92E@lee-is-102.lee.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1D054.7D6229A0" I rarely hear alto played loudly. It may be unfair to target bass trombone players for playing gratuitously loud, but it certainly is fair to say this is not a common problem with alto trombone.Ê At ETW, for example, Jo Dee ? did a nice tasteful job of playing alto. She never played very loudly, but then the literature did not demand it. To my ears there were some times when she increased volume to the point where she appeared to be limited by the capacity of the instrument - she wanted to get louder for reasons of expression, but she was already at max. I have heard others play alto well and had the same impression.Ê then along comes Jack Kenny. Same model alto, the Conn 36H, but completely different approach, he played nearly as loud as Wycliffe. I didn't know that could be done.Ê I don't want to do that. I will never have the need to play as loudly as Jack or Wycliffe. I do want to know how it is done, though, on the theory that then on those occasions I am called upon to play quite loud, I can do so without loss of tone. Their tone may not be particularly musical when pushed that hard, but it didn't break up the way mine does.Ê Do I just send the wife and kids to the mall and blast away periodically? (dunno if I can afford that!) - ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:34:45 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: why is alto so loud? Message-ID: <47763CCCA27C4F4FA4BEF7DDB754A1E7124A82@marshall.jmls.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > I will never have the need to play as loudly as Jack or Wycliffe. I do > want to know how it is done, though, on the theory that then on those > occasions I am called upon to play quite loud, I can do so without loss of > tone. Their tone may not be particularly musical when pushed that hard, > but it didn't break up the way mine does. > > Do I just send the wife and kids to the mall and blast away periodically? > (dunno if I can afford that!) > I don't claim to have a definitive answer, but I'm faced with a similar situation. I'm playing Pryor's Love's Enchantment at the NABBA contest, and the third waltz is fast and loud. I don't have much trouble playing either fast or loud, but the combination is tricky--playing cleanly and with a nice sound. It occurred to me that I have rarely practiced loud. If I want a wide dynamic range (and the last section of the piece is whisper soft), I need to practice it. So blasting away is part of the solution. Maybe try to play loud past a practice mute? That might help. Maybe I'll remember to try it when I get home. :-) Another thing that I think of is "tongue and blow, kid, just tongue and blow." If I concentrate on a steady air stream and keeping my tonguing in time, it seems to work better (except for the wrong notes that creep in in greater than usual abundance). Mark McDunn's cliche was "Air, Attack, Tone, Key, Rhythm", and it's hard to concentrate on all of that at once. But I guess that's what you have to do. If it doesn't happen in the practice room, it won't happen on stage. I have less than a month to make it happen on stage. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloging Librarian The John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 8guion@jmls.edu Should part-time band directors be called semi-conductors? Quidquid latine dictum sit, profundum viditur. ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 22:23:31 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Wycliffe Gordon at ETW Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Wycliffe· I heard him on the radio and ordered his CD, Slidinâ Home. Frankly, I canât listen to it. Heâs got amazing technique and itâs tastelessly over-applied everywhere. Iâd say the same thing about Steve Torre, who sounded so good, playing with McCoy Tyner, that I went out and bought my first trombone. But I canât listen to any of his CDs. It not so much that theyâre tasteless, but that the genre of music changes so radically, from cut to cut, that thereâs never a time when I want to listen to more than a couple of cuts, at any one time. I guess itâs a delicate balance, trying to wow people and remain tasteful, all at the same time. And maybe guys like Teagarden had the same problem, back then, but we can accept what he plays, now that we so used to the genre. I certainly have an easier time with Coltrane, now, than I did when he recorded it. ·back to my spice models· DanP _________________________________________________________________ Join the worldâs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:54:59 -0600 From: "Tom C. Shaddox" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: At the movies Message-ID: <3C991343.63654723@fnc.fujitsu.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last week was spring break and my daughter and I watched a number of old movies. I hadn't seen "A Clockwork Orange" in over 20 years, and had forgotten the line where Alex is trying to pick up the girls at the record store. He's telling them about his great sound system: "You can hear the angel trumpets and devil trombones." I wonder if Alex's term for intercourse is a key to understanding his description of the instrument. The band at Rick's Cafe in "Casablanca" of course has a trombonist. He's right up front, and playing what looks to be a quite small bore (French?) instrument. Nice visuals when Victor Laszlo leads the band in "La Marseillaise". It had probably been 35 years since I'd seen "The 5000 fingers of Dr. T". I had to explain to my daughter what a theremin is, and I really want a trombone like the ones they used in the dungeon scene! (Dr. T wanted to put all trombonists in the third level of his dungeon.) I'm sorry that I've been unable to find a picture of one of these Seussian instruments anywhere on the web to share with you. There's a trombone in the band at the Atlanta train station when Ashley Wilkes comes home on leave in "Gone With the Wind". I understand they didn't often use trombones in the field bands during the American civil war, but since this is a civilian band made up of children and old men, it's reasonable that a trombonist might be included. Even if it's not, directors love to throw trombones into movie scenes because they look so cool! I gotta go practice, Tom Shaddox, 9th chair tenor ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 17:15:47 -0600 From: "Tom C. Shaddox" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Teagarden's Prelude in G Message-ID: <3C991823.5D017C3C@fnc.fujitsu.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone know where I could get a transcription of the swing version of Rachmaninov's Prelude in G minor as done by Jack Teagarden's band? Thanks, Tom Shaddox, 9th chair tenor ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 17:11:58 -0800 From: "Matthew Stoecker" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: At the movies Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1D032.57E45AD0" Oh, I know this one! The trombonist in Rick's in Casablanca is playing an early King trombone with tuning in the slide. I don't know if it has a model name, but I know its a King because the very day after I watched Casablanca once, I bought one in a pawn shop. Plays ok, but not great. Matthew Stoecker ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom C. Shaddox Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 2:57 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: At the movies Last week was spring break and my daughter and I watched a number of old movies. I hadn't seen "A Clockwork Orange" in over 20 years, and had forgotten the line where Alex is trying to pick up the girls at the record store. He's telling them about his great sound system: "You can hear the angel trumpets and devil trombones." I wonder if Alex's term for intercourse is a key to understanding his description of the instrument. The band at Rick's Cafe in "Casablanca" of course has a trombonist. He's right up front, and playing what looks to be a quite small bore (French?) instrument. Nice visuals when Victor Laszlo leads the band in "La Marseillaise". It had probably been 35 years since I'd seen "The 5000 fingers of Dr. T". I had to explain to my daughter what a theremin is, and I really want a trombone like the ones they used in the dungeon scene! (Dr. T wanted to put all trombonists in the third level of his dungeon.) I'm sorry that I've been unable to find a picture of one of these Seussian instruments anywhere on the web to share with you. There's a trombone in the band at the Atlanta train station when Ashley Wilkes comes home on leave in "Gone With the Wind". I understand they didn't often use trombones in the field bands during the American civil war, but since this is a civilian band made up of children and old men, it's reasonable that a trombonist might be included. Even if it's not, directors love to throw trombones into movie scenes because they look so cool! I gotta go practice, Tom Shaddox, 9th chair tenor ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:06:17 -0600 From: "Tom Izzo" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Oscars (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I'm not mistaken, isn't McNab principal Trumpet in the LA Phil? He's also an extremely fine SOPRANO TROMBONE player, Catch him in the Moravian Trombone Choir of Downey, CA recordings. Tom [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Gabriel Langfur > The brass players are: > Trumpets: Malcolm McNab, Speaking of Malcolm McNab, he sounds absolutely beautiful on the soundtrack of the movie "The Last Castle", which I rented this weekend. Better movie than I expected, if a little heavy-handed, and like I said, the solo trumpet playing is gorgeous. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 21:47:39 -0500 From: "John Reifel" To: "tbnlist" Subject: Bud Powell Recordings Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1D058.DB1217A0" Does anyone know who played trombone with Bud Powell on Blue Note/Roost recordings? I have a library disc with no personnel info. It sounds like JJ. Thanks. John ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:44:12 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Which instruments change pitch most? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020320233740.021ac328@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed We are all sensitive to the fact that a cold horn gives a flatter pitch. More precisely, the cold air inside the cold horn gives a flatter pitch because the sound waves move more slowly in cold air. Because of that, it is normal to start short on the tuning slide and gradually move it out a little. Here are a few idle questions. 1) Has anybody done any theoretical calculations to figure out how much the pitch should change if the air temperature were the only variable? 2) Does the volume of air inside the horn make a difference? I think I make a bigger adjustment on bass than on tenor, but I can't say for sure. 3) If all the instruments changed at the same rate, the relative pitch of the ensemble would remain constant. I don't notice the woodwinds and strings retuning much while I may have to move out 3/8" on my tuning slide. Are woodwinds and strings more stable pitch-wise? Just curious. Craig ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 06:38:17 EST From: ALFORDMB@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Bud Powell Recordings Message-ID: <10f.e02245f.29cb2029@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Original message: < Does anyone know who played trombone with Bud Powell on Blue Note/Roost < recordings? I have a library disc with no personnel info. It sounds like JJ. Thanks. < < John -------------------------- That would be Curtis Fuller Mike Alford ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 06:55:00 -0600 From: "Edwards Eric, Leandra, Sara & Jared" To: "Trombone-L\(posts\)" Subject: Appropriate volume Message-ID: <002001c1d0d7$9d732680$47ecfea9@elsj> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Reading Paul Kemp's last post reminded me of a quote I read from the CEO of a high end sunglass maker. "If you do something a certain way JUST because it's always been done that way, means you're probably doing it wrong" Also, I can't help but wonder what Wagner, Strauss and the like would do or have done with the sonic textures & abilities of today's orchestras. Thanks Eric Edwards Bonearzt@mindspring.com "Just shut up and play!!" :) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 06:55:32 -0600 From: "Richard Johnson" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Conn 110H versus Bach 50 Message-ID: <002b01c1d0d7$b03cb880$895a86ac@zemry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just purchased a used Conn 110H open-wrap, silver bass trombone in immaculate condition. No wear anywhere! I paid $600.00 for it. Was this a decent price? The guy I purchased it from just bought a brand new Bach 50 open wrap, bass trombone. I've heard him play both trombones. The Conn has a more distinctive sound however, the Bach seems to blend better with the section. I really can't say which I prefer. Different sounds, but they both sound great! **************************************************************************** ** Richard Zemry Johnson, Jr. "The Untouchables" Jazz Ensemble Shreveport Metropolitan Concert Band ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, , "There won't come a time when you won't have to practice anymore." J. J. Johnson **************************************************************************** ***** I'm not satisfied with anything about my playing. I know what I want. I can hear it; but it will take time and study to get it" -Sonny Rollins (1956) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:11:48 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Conn 110H versus Bach 50 Message-ID: <20020321161148.36903.qmail@web10301.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Richard Johnson wrote: > I just purchased a used Conn 110H open-wrap, silver bass > trombone in > immaculate condition. No wear anywhere! I paid $600.00 > for it. Was this a > decent price? That's a great price! Enjoy... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:19:42 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: why is alto so loud? Message-ID: <20020321161942.96605.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL wrote: > Do I just send the wife and kids to the mall and blast > away periodically? > (dunno if I can afford that!) Yeah, that's pretty much it. Obviously there's more to it, but you have to have the embouchure strength to handle that much volume, and you really only get that particular type of strength by doing it. And you'll find that practicing loud as part of your daily routine, as long as it's done correctly, helps the soft playing, just as relaxed soft practicing helps the responsiveness at loud dynamics. Others on the list have more experience teaching and articulating these kinds of things better than I do, but I'm convinced that a lot of controlling the loud sound so that it doesn't break up has to do with the efficiency of the aperture, so that it spreads open no more or less than it needs to. Sam's adaptation of the Caruso ideas adresses that, as do Phil Teele's and Paul Kemp's long tone routines. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:22:41 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Which instruments change pitch most? Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I was looking at a calculation for that, just last night, and I believe that the temperature term is the square root of (1 + 0.00038T), where T is in centigrade. One cent is 1.00058, so a ten degree C. change in air temperature should result in a pitch rise of around 16 cents. But what that formula doesnât include is that the trombone also shrinks, at lower temperatures, so the rest of the formula, also changes. DanP From: Craig Parmerlee Reply-To: craig@acticalc.com To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Which instruments change pitch most? Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:44:12 -0500 We are all sensitive to the fact that a cold horn gives a flatter pitch. More precisely, the cold air inside the cold horn gives a flatter pitch because the sound waves move more slowly in cold air. Because of that, it is normal to start short on the tuning slide and gradually move it out a little. Here are a few idle questions. 1) Has anybody done any theoretical calculations to figure out how much the pitch should change if the air temperature were the only variable? 2) Does the volume of air inside the horn make a difference? I think I make a bigger adjustment on bass than on tenor, but I can't say for sure. 3) If all the instruments changed at the same rate, the relative pitch of the ensemble would remain constant. I don't notice the woodwinds and strings retuning much while I may have to move out 3/8" on my tuning slide. Are woodwinds and strings more stable pitch-wise? Just curious. Craig _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:23:59 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: why is alto so loud? Message-ID: <20020321162359.45911.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> wrote: > Mark McDunn's cliche was > "Air, Attack, Tone, > Key, Rhythm", and it's hard to concentrate on all of that > at once. Forget about the others and concentrate on rhythm. Everything else will fall into place if the rhythm is strong - particularly when you are doing your slow practicing. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 08:31:35 -0800 From: John & Mary To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Nasty Ugly Sound Message-ID: <3C9A0ADF.7B30959C@teleport.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why do we play the trombone? Why not the trumpet? Or piano? It's because of the SOUND. The trombone is an instrument of tone and warmth and beauty. Other instruments can play higher and faster. Is that the point of making music...to play high and fast? I read Sabutin's comments on Wycliffe's apparent over blowing with interest. I just bought two CD's by big name jazz players and was disappointed with their sounds. The sound was sacrificed for range and speed. Put yourself in the place of a non-trombonist, non-musician and listen to some trombone players. Is it still interesting? Does the sound seduce you to listen to more? Non-trombonists don't give a rat's ass about speed and range. They want to be GRABBED. The sound is what grabs them. Al Grey doing his feature tune with Basie in 1975 stopped the show with his great sound. People that previously didn't know a trombone from bass drum got goose pimples. For me the sound does not have to be gigantic. Jack Teagarden, Vic Dickenson, Bill Harris, Lawrence Brown. All great sounds. Fontana, Green, Rosolino. More great sounds. Trummy Young, J.J. Johnson, Watrous. You think of a name and you can hear that sound in your mind. It's identity. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 12:22:01 -0500 From: "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Nasty Ugly Sound Message-ID: <001501c1d0fc$eac35390$525b4d0c@trbnplyr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, I couldn't have said it better myself. I think of players that had a strong influence on me in my earlier years, and Dave Summers, Glenn Dodson, Harry Maddox, Gabriel Masson, The old Chicago Symphony section, all impressed me with the clear, pure SOUND. In the jazz world, the players that really have a sound that matches my idea of what a trombone is supposed to sound like would be Urbie Green, Dick Nash, Joe Howard (his playing on the Mr. Lucky theme on the Tutti's Trombone album is literally magnificent) Dave Steinmeyer, just to name a few. Of course there are others, but all of these players really helped to shape what my concept of the ideal trombone sound is. I'll go one step further. When you listen to real ARTISTS on any instrument, the SOUND that they produce on the instrument is really the first thing that grabs you. While it is true that there are many players out there who are raising the bar as far as the technical facility that is possible on the trombone, the # 1 thing that I listen for is DO THEY HAVE A GREAT SOUND? Without that, then nothing else they do matters very much. Trumpet players--Herseth, Andre, Phil Smith, Severinsen, Conrad Gozzo: Piano--Horowitz, Rubenstein, Ashkenazy, Garrick Ohllson, Oscar Peterson, Bill Evans, Art Tatum. Technical facility without a great sound is a very shallow, short lived experience, but great technical facility coupled with a great sound leaves a lasting impression not soon to be forgotten. Being a decent pianist, I vividly remember the first time I heard Bill Evans, Oscar Peterson, and Art Tatum. While their technical and improvisational facility is/was definitely formidable, I never tire of the sheer beauty in the sound that these guys produce(d) at the piano. Playing in an orchestra, we get to hear a number of really fine pianists that have no problems negotiating the technical aspects, but I can think of 3 pianists that we have had here that really impressed me as far as producing a great sound at the instrument in the past 20 years: Garrick Ohlsson, Vladimir Virado, and Tommy Banks (pianist with Gary Guthman, trumpeter, who is as close to being a "white" Oscar Peterson as anyone I've ever heard live---A real unsung hero). There are many pianists out there that can play all of the notes, have accurate time and rhythm, but there aren't very many that really get a great sound out of the instrument, and we as orchestral musicians hear many fine pianists, but the sound that they produce of the instrument many times leaves you empty. That's all I have to say on that. Paul D. Kemp Jr. Chattanooga Symphony www.trbnplyr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "John & Mary" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 11:31 AM Subject: Nasty Ugly Sound > Why do we play the trombone? Why not the trumpet? Or piano? > It's because of the SOUND. The trombone is an instrument > of tone and warmth and beauty. Other instruments can play > higher and faster. Is that the point of making music...to play > high and fast? I read Sabutin's comments on Wycliffe's apparent > over blowing with interest. I just bought two CD's by big name jazz > players and was disappointed with their sounds. The sound > was sacrificed for range and speed. Put yourself in the place > of a non-trombonist, non-musician and listen to some trombone > players. Is it still interesting? Does the sound seduce you to > listen to more? Non-trombonists don't give a rat's ass about > speed and range. They want to be GRABBED. The sound is > what grabs them. Al Grey doing his feature tune with Basie > in 1975 stopped the show with his great sound. People that > previously didn't know a trombone from bass drum got goose > pimples. For me the sound does not have to be gigantic. > Jack Teagarden, Vic Dickenson, Bill Harris, Lawrence Brown. > All great sounds. Fontana, Green, Rosolino. More great sounds. > Trummy Young, J.J. Johnson, Watrous. You think of a name and > you can hear that sound in your mind. It's identity. > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:22:40 -0800 From: Mike Mathews To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Ten Ways to Play Appropriate Volume Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sabutin wrote: " 1-Learn to hear and play simultaneously. I would say 99% of all "inappropriate" ensemble playing...too loud, too soft, out of tune, phrased in a way that doesn't match the way the rest of the ensemble is playing, timbrally wrong...is due to either disinterest and/or excessive self interest. If you listen to the music from start to finish...not just when you're playing, but throughout the piece...you will always be inside it, and all will go well. 2-Keep your chops up. You can't play appropriately if you can't play well. 3-Practice long tones as PART of keeping your chops up. You can't play soft or loud if you can't make a good sound. 4-Know the idiom. You can't tell WHEN to play loud or soft (or even HOW loud or soft) if you haven't listened to the greatest performances of the music or at least the idiom in which the music resides. Repeat the above 3 times, and there you are...12 rules." ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!! Listen all the time! There's no such thng as "you're out of tune" or he's too loud" or "she didn't phrase that correctly." There is only "WE are out of tune" and "WE are not balanced " and "WE are not phrasing the same." Each member of any ensemble is responsible for matching the others. When we ALL do this, then we play together (which is what we are supposedly trying to do); in tune, in balance, etc. I've been a bass trombonist for more years than I can count (of course I can only count to 4) and every time I have screwed up in a performance, it has almost always at least partly due to a lapse in listening to the other players. Keeping up the chops and long tones are all part of the same thing. Be able to do whatever is called for and more. We all need to be able to play higher & lower, louder & softer, and with more flexibility & technique than is ever needed in performance. If we can't do that, when we are asked to play very loud, very high, etc., we'll always be on or over the edge of losing control. Keep practicing and remember that musical talent is 95% hard work (such filthy language)! Mike Mathews Director of Instrumental Studies Missouri Western State College mathews@mwsc.edu ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 12:40:21 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Which instruments change pitch most? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020321123633.021abab8@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed It would be interesting to express this result as the amount of change in the tuning slide that each degree of change makes. Another variable is what happens to the embouchure during the warm-up period. Does our buzz change its intonation during that time? Do we tend to play below the center before being warmed up? That is part of why I am curious as to what the theory says about how far the tuning slide would move. If the actual move is much different than the theory, that suggests other factors at play. Later, Craig At 04:22 PM 3/21/2002 +0000, Daniel Pliskin wrote: I was looking at a calculation for that, just last night, and I believe that the temperature term is the square root of (1 + 0.00038T), where T is in centigrade. One cent is 1.00058, so a ten degree C. change in air temperature should result in a pitch rise of around 16 cents. But what that formula doesn't include is that the trombone also shrinks, at lower temperatures, so the rest of the formula, also changes. DanP From: Craig Parmerlee Reply-To: craig@acticalc.com To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Which instruments change pitch most? Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:44:12 -0500 We are all sensitive to the fact that a cold horn gives a flatter pitch. More precisely, the cold air inside the cold horn gives a flatter pitch because the sound waves move more slowly in cold air. Because of that, it is normal to start short on the tuning slide and gradually move it out a little. Here are a few idle questions. 1) Has anybody done any theoretical calculations to figure out how much the pitch should change if the air temperature were the only variable? 2) Does the volume of air inside the horn make a difference? I think I make a bigger adjustment on bass than on tenor, but I can't say for sure. 3) If all the instruments changed at the same rate, the relative pitch of the ensemble would remain constant. I don't notice the woodwinds and strings retuning much while I may have to move out 3/8" on my tuning slide. Are woodwinds and strings more stable pitch-wise? Just curious. Craig _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 12:43:38 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Nasty Ugly Sound Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020321124119.021c2938@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 08:31 AM 3/21/2002 -0800, John & Mary wrote: Why do we play the trombone? Why not the trumpet? Or piano? It's because of the SOUND. The trombone is an instrument of tone and warmth and beauty. Other instruments can play higher and faster. Is that the point of making music...to play high and fast? I read Sabutin's comments on Wycliffe's apparent over blowing with interest. I just bought two CD's by big name jazz players and was disappointed with their sounds. The sound was sacrificed for range and speed. Put yourself in the place of a non-trombonist, non-musician and listen to some trombone players. Is it still interesting? Does the sound seduce you to listen to more? Non-trombonists don't give a rat's ass about speed and range. They want to be GRABBED. The sound is what grabs them. Al Grey doing his feature tune with Basie in 1975 stopped the show with his great sound. People that previously didn't know a trombone from bass drum got goose pimples. For me the sound does not have to be gigantic. Jack Teagarden, Vic Dickenson, Bill Harris, Lawrence Brown. All great sounds. Fontana, Green, Rosolino. More great sounds. Trummy Young, J.J. Johnson, Watrous. You think of a name and you can hear that sound in your mind. It's identity. If you want a sound that reminds you of why you took up trombone, get that Alan Kaplan CD. Not a lick of improvisation on the whole thing, which is unusual these days. Just good sound. Pretty. In tune. Clean. Not fancy, just beautiful. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335 Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:40:11 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Which instruments change pitch most? Message-ID: <009a01c1d0ff$89b6c8e0$4194fc3e@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Daniel Pliskin" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was looking at a calculation for that, just last night, and I believe that the temperature term is the square root of (1 + 0.00038T), where T is in centigrade. One cent is 1.00058, so a ten degree C. change in air temperature should result in a pitch rise of around 16 cents. But what that formula doesn't include is that the trombone also shrinks, at lower temperatures, so the rest of the formula, also changes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, so now we have the formulae, maybe someone could build me a gizmo to replace the counterweight, that measures the air temperature and moves the main tuning slide accordingly. Then when someone asks me why I haven't corrected my tuning, I don't have to say "It was in tune when I bought it". Oh yes, and maybe it could be adapted to listen to the oboe note too, before making its calculation. Oh yes, and maybe it could also be wired to monitor my body rhythms to decide whether I'm having a good day or a bad day. How much would the prototype cost? A. Adrian Drover ADIOS, Scotland www.adios.co.uk Personal email: adrian@adios.co.uk ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2335--