TROMBONE-L Digest 2303 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by sabutin 2) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by sabutin 3) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by Craig Parmerlee 4) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by "Charles Perron" 5) Subsidised versus commercial music by Craig Parmerlee 6) That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Richard B. Human, Jr." 7) Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by Craig Parmerlee 8) Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics by Gabriel Langfur 9) Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Rod Ellard" 10) Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by Craig Parmerlee 11) Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by "Richard B. Human, Jr." 12) [TubaEuph] Trombone Albums by Dave Tall 13) Relaxation by "Richard B. Human, Jr." 14) Re: Janacek Sinfionetta parts? by Daniel Cloutier 15) Jazz, Western European tradition, etc by sabutin 16) RE: Relaxation by "Jeff Albert" 17) Re: Tenor Trumpets (Re: Instrument design over the past 100 years or so) by "Adrian Drover" 18) Re: Tenor Trumpets (Re: Instrument design over the past 100 yearsor so) by "Adrian Drover" 19) Re: Relaxation by sabutin 20) Re: Relaxation by Walter Barrett 21) Re: Relaxation by BassBonist@aol.com 22) Alto trombone info... by "Elisabeth Frederick" 23) Re: Relaxation by "Gary D. Maxwell" 24) Re: Relaxation by Gabriel Langfur 25) Re: Jazz, Western European tradition, etc by Gabriel Langfur 26) Re: Tenor Trumpets (Re: Instrument design over the past 100 years or so) by Gabriel Langfur 27) Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing by Gabriel Langfur 28) Re: Alto trombone info... by "David Pozos" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:44:50 -0500 From: sabutin To: glangfur@yahoo.com Cc: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" --- sabutin wrote: Think about it, Gabe...if you and the other freelance orchestral musicians you know had a full time job w/a major symphony, don't you think that you;d be playing even better than you are now? Absolutely true. I can only imagine what would happen if the members of a band like the Vanguard Band or the Smithsonian had a 40 + week season, made a living wage playing great music, and had all the side benefits available to a member of major orchestra. A dream? Maybe...but I don't see why it should be, short of the endemic racism + culturalism that exists in large parts of our society. That is an absolutely fantastic dream, and I can't agree with you more that it SHOULD happen. You ascribe a lot of the obstacle to racism and other things, and I contend that those are eminently surpassable at this point in history. ============== Better than before,,,but no one except Wynton and his allies have been able to really do it so far, and as I say, they have largely done it at the expense of the music. =================== My point is that jazz musicians have not yet learned how to ask for help from the systems that are already in place to promote great art. The money's not there, but I really think the biggest reason it's not there is that it hasn't yet been asked for, seriously and persistently - at least not by anyone other than Wynton Marsalis and Ken Burns. ================ The people who run the Smithsonian Band has been trying...seriously + persistently...for 10 years now, w/little success. I'm sure there are others... Now it way not have been done WELL...I think only the Lincoln Center act has been together in a mainstream "I KNOW how to play this game" way...but is has been done. It sure would be nice to try this...it could be VERY easily done for the price of a SCUD missile or two, y'know what I mean...???? Well - you're not gonna get THAT kind of money... Gabe ============== Why not? The NY Phil is worth 4 or 5 SCUD missiles every year. ($100 million + budget...) S. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:43:29 -0500 From: sabutin To: craig@acticalc.com Cc: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 03:17 PM 2/15/2002 -0500, David Buckley wrote: sabutin wrote: W/proper scheduling and publicity, you would attract audiences of the same size as symphony audiences, paying about the same money per person. I'm not so sure about this. To be totally honest, I have never yet heard any jazz performance with the complexity and emotional impact of the great symphonies. Does that mean you only want to listen to the same few pieces all the time? No of course not. But the simplicity of the jazz from - note form, not notes - does not offer the same interest by a long shot. If it did, audiences for jazz would be a whole lot bigger than they are now, regardless of what orchestras do. I don't think the jazz form is particularly lacking. It can be inspirational in its own way. The problem is the inconsistent execution. Symphony orchestras strive to execute a piece perfectly and the same way every time. When you buy a ticket for a symphony performance, you have a clear expectation that is usually met. Some performances are better than others, but the deviation is 5% or so. =========== I have two answers for this. 1-The very NATURE of jazz playing...which was largely formed by its societal position at the bottom of the ladder...is by definition improvisatory. This is its strength...it almost alchemically transformed the lead of racial and cultural bias into the gold of art right under the noses that were lopoking down upon it, and in the process infulenced the entire musical culture of the world...and its weakness as well. You're right, "jazz" is not consistent. This goes to the next point: 2-How do you think major orchestras GET consistent? They REHEARSE, and they are paid for it. The musicians STUDY, in the absolutely best situations that the society can provide. Those same musicians are mostly THERE at the paid rehearsals, because they can afford to be rather than being forced to go play a toilet paper commercial ion order to pay the rent. And we are right back to money and societal position. ========================== Jazz concerts are completely different. First, a lot of the performers act like they really don't care very much about their music. They show up and play some stuff for an intro, jam a little, maybe play a distinguishable head, then mess around for 30 minutes improvising on chords that have some resemblance to the head, play the head, finally run out of steam on an ending chord, and jam another 30 seconds before deciding they are done. ================ Who is this/ Certainly not Miles Davis, not the bands I play with, not Chucho Valdez or Dave Douglas or Wayne Shorter...go to inferior jazz performances...and most festival scenes are as jive as the day is long...and that's what you'll get. Go hear Jim Hall or The Vanguard Band or Bill Charlap and you will get committed artistry. Every time. Go see a bunch of jerks in suits who think they can play and are looking down their cocaine filled noses at their audience and you will get just what you described. ======================== It doesn't appear that they have made much of an effort rehearsing for the performance. Sometimes the spontaneous performance yields a magnificent performance. Other times it is not very moving. The variance, it seems to me, is more like 60% or so. Because of that, I'd have a lot of trouble paying top dollar to see most jazz groups. I'd rather catch them in a club with a modest cover where I can leave if it is not happening. By the way, rock groups are generally in that 5-10% variance that we expect of the symphony orchestras, although they achieve that with a lot of pre-programmed MIDI and lights. Nonetheless, the public has confidence that they will get a good show if they plunk down their 40 bucks. Maybe what we really need is for jazz composers to stretch their talents to produce programs that can are well thought out, well rehearsed, and designed to move the audience. Good jazz can be well planned. I'm thinking of Ellington's Sacred Services, which were on the more popular end of the scale. Another example is the orchestra composition Ellingtones by David Baker. It is a brilliant work and can definitely be the foundation for world class jazz playing. To me, that is a better formula for getting jazz into the concert hall. Later, Craig ============== Craig...Ellington and David Baker HAD a certain amount of position in the world when they did those things, and COULD pay great musicians to play. And they were STILL underpaid and rushed compared to major orchestras. Sure it can be done...I did Ellington's Sacred music under David Baker in Washington last year, and it was damned good. We had far too few hours of rehearsal, including the choir and soloists, and we barely made it through w/out a major train wreck as a result...but we DID it. The musicians were flown in that morning from all over the country, went straight to rehearsal, played difficult music that most of us had never seen w/a choir and soloists that were in the same boat in a cathedral that sounded like an echo chamber, slept, rehearsed again, had a sound check and did the gig. No set ensemble that plays together almost every day, no studying excerpts for 4 years in conservatory so that we had the hard parts down...just get down + do it. The music deserves more. ALL great music deserves more. S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:17:21 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: sabutin Cc: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020216171240.01f15248@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I think we're in violent agreement here. Some comments below. At 04:43 PM 2/16/2002 -0500, sabutin wrote: 2-How do you think major orchestras GET consistent? They REHEARSE, and they are paid for it. The musicians STUDY, in the absolutely best situations that the society can provide. Those same musicians are mostly THERE at the paid rehearsals, because they can afford to be rather than being forced to go play a toilet paper commercial ion order to pay the rent. And we are right back to money and societal position. I see your point. If jazz artist do create great works it is on their own dime. That is a huge disadvantage. I would love to see a financial commitment into jazz composition that is a fraction of what the European idiom has. Jazz concerts are completely different. First, a lot of the performers act like they really don't care very much about their music. They show up and play some stuff for an intro, jam a little, maybe play a distinguishable head, then mess around for 30 minutes improvising on chords that have some resemblance to the head, play the head, finally run out of steam on an ending chord, and jam another 30 seconds before deciding they are done. Who is this/ Certainly not Miles Davis, not the bands I play with, not Chucho Valdez or Dave Douglas or Wayne Shorter...go to inferior jazz performances...and most festival scenes are as jive as the day is long...and that's what you'll get. Go hear Jim Hall or The Vanguard Band or Bill Charlap and you will get committed artistry. I don't dispute that. I'd rather not name names, but I think we have all seen both kinds of performers and performances. It is the random, unprepared, unrehearsed groups that give jazz a bad name, IMHO. Maybe what we really need is for jazz composers to stretch their talents to produce programs that can are well thought out, well rehearsed, and designed to move the audience. Good jazz can be well planned. I'm thinking of Ellington's Sacred Services, which were on the more popular end of the scale. Another example is the orchestra composition Ellingtones by David Baker. It is a brilliant work and can definitely be the foundation for world class jazz playing. To me, that is a better formula for getting jazz into the concert hall. Later, Craig ============== Craig...Ellington and David Baker HAD a certain amount of position in the world when they did those things, and COULD pay great musicians to play. And they were STILL underpaid and rushed compared to major orchestras. Sure it can be done...I did Ellington's Sacred music under David Baker in Washington last year, and it was damned good. We had far too few hours of rehearsal, including the choir and soloists, and we barely made it through w/out a major train wreck as a result...but we DID it. The musicians were flown in that morning from all over the country, went straight to rehearsal, played difficult music that most of us had never seen w/a choir and soloists that were in the same boat in a cathedral that sounded like an echo chamber, slept, rehearsed again, had a sound check and did the gig. No set ensemble that plays together almost every day, no studying excerpts for 4 years in conservatory so that we had the hard parts down...just get down + do it. The music deserves more. ALL great music deserves more. Agreed. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 19:16:33 -0500 From: "Charles Perron" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <001301c1b748$5b24c7f0$6401a8c0@amd1400> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The music deserves more. > > ALL great music deserves more. > > S. Why? If we could answer that question by coming up with an objective standard that transcends "personal taste" and communicate that standard to both musicians and non-musicians then maybe there would be a chance to accomplish some of the idealistic things that have been discussed in this thread, but until then (or if that isn't possible) I think we are stuck with the situation Sam described doing Ellington's Sacred music. Chuck ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 19:49:31 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Subsidised versus commercial music Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020216193420.01f16d68@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 07:16 PM 2/16/2002 -0500, Charles Perron wrote: > The music deserves more. > > ALL great music deserves more. > > S. Why? If we could answer that question by coming up with an objective standard that transcends "personal taste" and communicate that standard to both musicians and non-musicians then maybe there would be a chance to accomplish some of the idealistic things that have been discussed in this thread, but until then (or if that isn't possible) I think we are stuck with the situation Sam described doing Ellington's Sacred music. Why "why"? There is a vast infrastructure for funding the composition and performance of music of the west European idiom, yet there is hardly an objective standard for judging that music. Most of what that system produced by way of new compositions during the 20th century sounds like -- well, it wouldn't pass any objective standard I could buy into. I think the basic question Sam raises is why should "classical" music be supported as a charity whereas we expect jazz to support itself commercially? I guess the same question could be asked with regards to rock, rap, blues, dixie, and C&W. I don't know the answer exactly, but I think that many people make an association of classical music with culture, breeding, education, intelligence and civility. For better or worse, these aren't the values that immediately spring to mind when you say the word "jazz". It is understandable that the classical companies that have been able to secure a nice revenue stream aren't eager to share this franchise with others. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 18:42:24 -0600 From: "Richard B. Human, Jr." To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Greetings, Let us not forget the long view here. If we consider that "Classical" music is about 1400 years old (if you consider the beginning to be the first codification of the canonical hours in the "Rule of St. Benedict," c. 520) as compared to "Jazz" being less than 150 years old (the origins of Jazz could be another blue-in-the-face discussion) this conversation takes on a new tint. Simply put, Jazz is a new form, and to hear people bemoaning the fact that it is not as "respected" (read: funded, supported, studied, well-thought-of, whatever you want to say) as "Classical" music seems a bit like an 8 year old stamping their feet and insisting that they be treated like an adult. Sure, they have the same biological parts as an adult, but as for experience, cultivation, history, knowledge... "fugget about it." Those who wish to have equal status with another should first travel the same road. For the time being "Jazz" is a baby, not even adolescent. To insist that it be awarded "Classical" status in any way is going against one of the first tenants of Jazz itself - "you gots to pay your dues." And then, while I was writing, Sam Burtis (I think) wrote in another message: > The music deserves more. By this I assume he meant "Jazz." > ALL great music deserves more Jazz is not yet proven to be "great" in my view. Perhaps in 500 or 1000 years it won't even be recognized, or perhaps it will be all that we know. For now, though, it isn't great - it just is. If it is viable and speaks to people artistically (meaning - past making them tap their toes and snap their fingers) then it, deservedly, will survive just as much of "Western Art Music" has. This reminds me a maddening thing that happened recently in the US. A few days after September 11, the airline industry was in the houses of our government whining about how they needed subsidies to stay in business - a relief package to help get them through a time when people weren't traveling. What kind of crap is that? If there is not a market for what you are selling then why is it a society's responsibility to insure your viability? If there are too many airlines for the amount of business available, then some need to go out of business. Just because you *want* to do something does not mean you have the *right* to be able to do it. If it good and necessary - if it fills a need - then it will survive. Nothing in this world deserves to exist without a purpose. My .02 Richard ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:12:07 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020216200205.01f3de40@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:42 PM 2/16/2002 -0600, Richard B. Human, Jr. wrote: Simply put, Jazz is a new form, and to hear people bemoaning the fact that it is not as "respected" (read: funded, supported, studied, well-thought-of, whatever you want to say) as "Classical" music seems a bit like an 8 year old stamping their feet and insisting that they be treated like an adult. Sure, they have the same biological parts as an adult, but as for experience, cultivation, history, knowledge... "fugget about it." Those who wish to have equal status with another should first travel the same road. For the time being "Jazz" is a baby, not even adolescent. To insist that it be awarded "Classical" status in any way is going against one of the first tenants of Jazz itself - "you gots to pay your dues." I generally agree with that. If it is viable and speaks to people artistically (meaning - past making them tap their toes and snap their fingers) then it, deservedly, will survive just as much of "Western Art Music" has. This reminds me a maddening thing that happened recently in the US. A few days after September 11, the airline industry was in the houses of our government whining about how they needed subsidies to stay in business - a relief package to help get them through a time when people weren't traveling. What kind of crap is that? If there is not a market for what you are selling then why is it a society's responsibility to insure your viability? If there are too many airlines for the amount of business available, then some need to go out of business. Just because you *want* to do something does not mean you have the *right* to be able to do it. If it good and necessary - if it fills a need - then it will survive. Nothing in this world deserves to exist without a purpose. Gee, that seems to be an argument for just the opposite. After all, classical is the only music that does *NOT* and cannot pay its own way. There isn't a single large company that would be alive today if it weren't for a big endowment, a steady stream of government grants and large gifts from philanthropists. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm betting that commercial revenues (i.e. box office + merchandising) pays for less than 50% of the operation industry-wide. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:14:22 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: very encouraging orchestra statistics Message-ID: <20020217011422.21061.qmail@web10304.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- sabutin wrote: > > The people who run the Smithsonian Band has been > trying...seriously + persistently...for 10 years now, > w/little > success. I'm sure there are others... > Maybe the problem is that they are tied to the Smithsonian. It might be worth a try to keep the association and the name if possible but form their own corporation. I would imagine that the bureaucracy of the Smithsonian Institution is absolutely huge, and therefore very difficult to move. A smaller organization can be more independent in its fundraising activities, and limited only by the drive of the people involved. The Boston Early Music Festival (where I work) puts on a major international festival of early music every two years and an annual concert series of 10-13 events with a staff of 2 1/2 + a couple of consultants. It's basically impossible, but it happens because of the determination of one woman - who refuses to go the route of looking for a sponsoring organization to swallow us into its budget and activities. She's seen what that's done to other, similar organizations. Almost without exception, they've had to scale back activities to the point of near irrelevance. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 17:31:12 -0800 From: "Rod Ellard" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <000901c1b752$df79fe80$57e994d1@lindascomp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now the reactionaries react. A few not very well argued thoughts: 1. Why is just "classical" (forget definitions, we know what we mean) supported by the gov't? Well, I suppose, for one reason, it's impossible to support an major orchestra without government funding. Many smaller classical ensembles struggle with minimal gov't support, mostly on the strength of volunteers. 2. Why subsidize music at all? More than at any other point in history, if one needs a fix of music, one can buy a CD that, on a reasonably priced system, satisfactorily reproduces the great performances of the great orchestras. The American governments (all levels) seem happy to heavily subsidize professional sports. At least the outcome of the Super Bowl, for example, was a surprise. We all know how Beethoven's 5th turns out. 3. Sam talks about "culturalism", presumably referring to the the respect and legitimacy accorded the Western European classical music tradition v. the lack thereof accorded jazz composers (with the exception of Ellington and [insert name here]). But why stop there? What about other forms of music? Rap, alternative, punk, etc. "Punk" might be the best example. The expression of frustrated disenfranchised youth raging against the restraints of contemporary N. American culture. Unsupported by the big music industry, no outlet or media attention or support. Why shouldn't some young hoodlum sceraming at the top of his lungs (with an electric guitar and a Marshall turned up to ten) about society's ills be ignored in favour of the music of long dead Germans or sophisticated dance music from the 30's? 4. Culturalism? What culture does jazz represent, exactly? Aging hipsters, black democrats, what? It doesn't represent American-Asian, hispanic, native etc., although there are any number of musicians from those particular cultural and ethnic backgrounds playing jazz music. Isn't jazz pretty comfortable stuff these days? It hasn't challenged anybody since 1956. By the way, apropos of nothing, Dizzy Gillespie was the hippest guy of the 20th century. 5. What happens to all those jazz musicians in high schools and universities? They aren't playing any music in my neighborhood. This doesn't call for a government (read taxpayer) solution. 6.Since when do we owe Sam and his pals a living? If Sam sells his 'bones and starts selling bonds for a living, is the world worse off? Does it rain in my neighborhood? So what if Alessi is cleaning up (on mostly government money and corporate donations which, in turn, are tax deductible, so it's the taxpayers who are ultimately footing this bill too). Sam, you should have practiced those excerpts. Rod ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:47:41 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020216204650.00b91f20@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 05:31 PM 2/16/2002 -0800, Rod Ellard wrote: 2. Why subsidize music at all? More than at any other point in history, if one needs a fix of music, one can buy a CD that, on a reasonably priced system, satisfactorily reproduces the great performances of the great orchestras. The American governments (all levels) seem happy to heavily subsidize professional sports. At least the outcome of the Super Bowl, for example, was a surprise. We all know how Beethoven's 5th turns out. Not when I play it. :) ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:12:04 -0600 From: "Richard B. Human, Jr." To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This is a wonderful discussion that has flowered to other areas - it's nice to see the trombone-L thriving on this topic and its' auxiliaries. on 2/16/02 7:12 PM, Craig Parmerlee at craig@acticalc.com scrambled the quantum eggs of the ever-expanding universe by writing: >> If it is viable and speaks to people artistically (meaning - past making >> them tap their toes and snap their fingers) then it, deservedly, will >> survive just as much of "Western Art Music" has. >> >> This reminds me a maddening thing that happened recently in the US. A few >> days after September 11, the airline industry was in the houses of our >> government whining about how they needed subsidies to stay in business - a >> relief package to help get them through a time when people weren't >> traveling. >> >> What kind of crap is that? If there is not a market for what you are >> selling then why is it a society's responsibility to insure your viability? >> If there are too many airlines for the amount of business available, then >> some need to go out of business. Just because you *want* to do something >> does not mean you have the *right* to be able to do it. If it good and >> necessary - if it fills a need - then it will survive. Nothing in this >> world deserves to exist without a purpose. > > > Gee, that seems to be an argument for just the opposite. After all, > classical is the only music that does *NOT* and cannot pay its own > way. There isn't a single large company that would be alive today if it > weren't for a big endowment, a steady stream of government grants and large > gifts from philanthropists. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm betting that > commercial revenues (i.e. box office + merchandising) pays for less than > 50% of the operation industry-wide. We all have opinions... Craig's statement, "that seems to be an argument for just the opposite," assumed that I supported these artificial supports for the arts when I don't for the private sector. I don't. It is wrong for music just like it is wrong for anything else. It was not my intention to infer that "Classical" music "pays it own way." It doesn't. The point was that of the two choices being discussed here, the realm of "Classical" music has more solidly established itself. This does not mean that "Jazz" is inferior - it means that it has not had the benefit of time to establish its place and importance in the culture. "Western Art Music" has survived, I would offer, in *small* part due to being propped up, and in a larger part due to its connection to our culture over a long period of time. When (if?) "Jazz" gets this old it will have this importance as well - some of the older stuff is already rising to the top like cream. It will come, but I think it will take time. The Kellogg foundation didn't support the trouveres, and Beethoven did it on his own as well. In order for music to get really good, it had to get away from being a commodity. Jazz started by not being a commodity, and I think to try to sell it as one by tying its' worth to how much funding it gets (money it makes) is to sell the art form short. Music, in this century, is almost all commodity - and you can see where that has gotten us. Jazz needs time to grow some more before we feed it to the wolves of capitalism - it's too young to fend its' own way. On a totally different topic.... It was written.... > 2-How do you think major orchestras GET consistent? And then offered were a lot of reasons to do with getting paid: > They REHEARSE, and they are paid for it. > > The musicians STUDY, in the absolutely best situations that the > society can provide. > > Those same musicians are mostly THERE at the paid rehearsals, > because they can afford to be rather than being forced to go play a > toilet paper commercial ion order to pay the rent. I would offer that major orchestras are consistent (not that consistency is the end all and be all of creativity, mind you) because the traditions are so well established. I know what Mahler 3 sounds like, I know all the notes before the very first rehearsal. I could walk into many orchestras (not the top 15, but many) and play it just fine, I arrogantly say. It has little to do with the rehearsals. It has to do with the music being around for 100 or so years and its having a well-established tradition. I would also offer that I am not paid to practice on my own - that's where our skill is learned, yes? If I don't know the notes, tempi, style, section stuff, and nail it in the first rehearsal then I don't get a second one. If you don't know the tune when its called, or the style, or the changes, do you get called again? Maybe in "Jazz," but not in the orchestra. And - I would only have to point to central Mississippi to show that not all "classically" trained people study in the 'absolutely best situations that the society can provide.' We all know that's not even close to accurate. Finally - those who can "afford to be" at paid rehearsals are there, I would offer, because they are that damned good at what they do. We, who have time to sit in front of our computer's and whine about these things until we are blue in the face, are not those people. It was also written... > I can > only > imagine what would happen if the members of a band like > the Vanguard > Band or the Smithsonian had a 40 + week season, made a > living wage > playing great music, and had all the side benefits > available to a > member of major orchestra. Perhaps, when the Vanguard is around for 160 years (NY Philharmonic), 112 years (Chicago) or 170 years (Vienna Phil) it will have achieved this level. It took over 60 years for Vienna to become a stable, regularly-performing ensemble. Richard ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:04:26 -0700 From: Dave Tall To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: [TubaEuph] Trombone Albums Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20020216220426.0134add8@mail.albqrq1.nm.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Sender: Carl Webster >X-eGroups-From: Carl Webster >From: Carl Webster >Subject: [TubaEuph] Trombone Albums > >I have the following trombone albums for sale.Ê Thought I would offer >them to the list first before putting them up on eBay.Ê Make an offer.Ê >Payment via PayPal. > >The Tiger of San Pedro ö Bill Watrous and the Manhattan Wildlife Refuge >Manhattan Wildlife Refuge ö Bill Watrous > >Danish Blue ö Kai Winding >Caravan ö Kai Winding > >21 Trombones - Urbie Green and Twenty of the ãWorldâs Greatestä (1973 >album) >21 Trombones - Urbie Green and Twenty of the ãWorldâs Greatestä (1967 >album) > >The Music of Bach, Pergolesi, Brahms, Bruckner and the Renaissance ö Los >Angeles Philharmonic Trombone troupe! >Music of the Moravian Trombone Choir ö Los Angeles Philharmonic Trombone >Ensemble > >J.J. & Kai ö The J.J. Johnson and Kai Winding Trombone Octet (J.J., Kai, >Urbie Green, Bob Alexander, Eddie Bert, Jimmy Cleveland, Bart Varsalone >& Tom Mitchell) >The Brass Connection (Doug Hamilton, Ian McDougall, Jerry Johnson, Bob >Livingston, John Capon) >Oleo ö Urbie Green, Carl Fontana, Kai Winding, Trummy Young >Trombone Summit ö Winding, Mangelsdorff, Watrous, Whigham >You Asked For It! ö Them Bones >Music for Two Seasons ö Members of the Moravian Trombone Choir of Downey >Play >Vox Gabrieli ö Ralph Sauer >Tuttiâs Trombones >Ronald Borror on Trombone >Four Freshmen and 5 trombones (Frank Rosolino, Harry Betts Jr, Milt >Bernhart, Tommy Pederson & George Roberts) >The Malcolm Forsyth Trombone Ensemble, Marini, Gabrieli, Speer, >Bruckner, Massaino, Forsyth and Massis >LâEnsemble De Trombones De Paris performs Suite Balkanique & Double >Concerto by Janko Nilovic >The Big Trombone ö Jeffrey Reynolds > >I will sell individual albums, groups and, of course, the whole thing. >Ê >Albums have been in storage and not played since 1984. >Ê >Webster >Ê > > > >---------------------end-of-message---------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe, send an email to: TubaEuph-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > >List concerns? Email the management: TubaEuph-LMT@yahoogroups.com >TubaEuph HomePage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TubaEuph >Basic Questions: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TubaEuph/files/FAQ.htm >Guidelines: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TubaEuph/files/Guidelines/Guidelines.htm > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 23:14:33 -0600 From: "Richard B. Human, Jr." To: Trombone List Subject: Relaxation Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Greetings all, On another topic... What are some methods you use to help your students relax? I'm not concerned specifically with performance anxiety - just over all un-binding of the body so that a good tone and better concentration can be had. I suggest exercise and getting enough rest, but wonder of there are some exercises or techniques that could be used in the actual lesson that address this area. Ideas? Richard ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 22:07:47 -0800 (PST) From: Daniel Cloutier To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Cc: posaune_rex@hotmail.com Subject: Re: Janacek Sinfionetta parts? Message-ID: <20020217060747.66851.qmail@web13202.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Stacy wrote: >The Janacek sinfonietta 2nd trombone part is on the >Grant Park adition list... I have the excerpt from >Brown vol VIII and the Doms book but I'm wondering if >anyone has a part they could mail me (study purposes >only of course). Just use the Brown book. That is what will be used at the audition. Remember, the Janacek is only for Section playing in the Finals, and only the 3rd movement. Hope that Helps. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 01:39:21 -0500 From: sabutin To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Jazz, Western European tradition, etc Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I have been absolutely floored by the overt (and covert) hostility to the relative validity of the jazz tradition versus that of Western European music that I have encountered over the past several months. Floored. Shocked. Surprised. And I thought that this was a thing of the past. (Silly me...) I see that it is not...neven on this relatively enlightened mailing list. I haven't the time...or considering what I've begun to see, even much inclination...to try to refute what appears to be a much larger resistance to the music than I ever imagined in the world of European art music...that jazz is a sloppy, mediocre genre by nature, that it's only a little child next to its wonderfully mature grown cousin from Europe, that we who live this music musn't "whine" about our inferior financial position in the pecking order of the culture as it stands today, that if we consider jazz as worthy of attention then why not Celine Dion (who, by the way, if you have any ears and heart whatsoever can be heard to be a VERY good singer...),or rap or grunge rock...all points that those of us who really love and understand the idiom would find nothing less than laughable, if we had any room for laughter left. I will only make two more points, and then, having said my piece, will say no more on the subject. 1-In all my life I have never heard a highly evolved jazz musician put down the great body of European art music in any way. Those that I know personally...and those such as Duke Ellington and Charlie Parker that I know only by reputation...listen(ed) to ALL serious music with equal respect. I find suspicious ANYONE who claims to be a musician but cannot hear the validity of real music that lives outside of their own idiom, and I was originally drawn to jazz at least partially by the all-encompassing ears of people like Gil Evans, Charles Mingus, John LaPorta, Joe Wilder, J. J. Johnson and Jim Knepper. They listened to EVERYTHING, understanding that it is not the FORM of the music but its SUBSTANCE that matters. 2-This music has literally changed the world. It is everywhere, DESPITE the general nonacceptance (or at best, grudging inclusion) it has encountered in the mainstream cultural venues...the concert hall,the grant driven organizations, the academic institutions. Disrespectful observations notwithstanding, this music will live on after much of the product of this culture is dead and forgotten. Despite snide comments about what "culture" this music really represents, it largely represents the very best, most generous and inclusive instincts of American life, and during a time when blacks couldn't drink at white water fountains in the South and ethnics of ANY stripe couldn't buy a house in many neighborhoods in the north, Artie Shaw was playing w/Billie Holiday, Jack Teagarden w/Louis Armstrong, and jazz was nearly the ONLY place in all of America where the various races and cultures could meet on a basis of mutual respect and brotherhood. And it's STILL that way today. It has changed the way so-called "popular" music is played...I mean, who INVENTED the rhythm section of bass, drums and chordal instruments that now routinely drives rock, pop, B'way, blues, country music and most of the popular music of the rest of the world as well? Dance? Almost all elements of popular dance were first seen in dancers who danced to jazz in the '20s + '30s...maybe earlier... It greatly affected the way movies, TV and commercials are scored, and the improvisatory element of jazz has even affected the way actors perform and movies are made. Was improvisation common in ANY other art before jazz? Now it's the driving force behind TV comedy shows and mainstream movies. here are thjose who believe...and I count myself among hem...that the first effective shots fired in the war against prejudice and segregation in America were fired by the wild eyed revolutionaries we now call the beboppers. They were saying in 1941 what Martin Luther King and Malcolm X were saying in the late '50s + early '60s. We're here and we've got our own way about things and it is STRONG. Strong. And yet the questions remain. And you know why I think they remain? They remain because many people just can't swing. I feel sorry for them, but I think it's just that country simple in the last analysis. Many people just can't swing. And further, these people almost invariably take the ability to swing as a personal insult of some kind. Much Nixonian shaking of jowls and harrumphing as they justify their own defensive reactions to the threat they feel from real, free swing, but boil it all down...they're just pissed off that something's going on that they just can't get. Fats Waller said it best. When asked the question "What is swing?" he answered "If you don't know...I can't tell you." And...these people seem most often to be the ones that run things, the gatekeepers (probably using the time and energy that they don't waste on swinging to work work work work work so they can control things), which explains why something as free and joyous as jazz has been frozen out of the arts gravy train. "Too free...too loose. CAN'T be 'serious'. Harrumph harrumph". Well I've got news for you...it IS serious, and it will be here for a long long time. With or without the help of the arts culture. It is the music of freedom, and long after Bush's platitudes and the intricate machinations of the arts bureaucracy that Dave Taylor likes to call "the military/industrial/academic complex" are forgotten, Louis Armstrong's call to joy will be remembered. To those of you who look down on this music...the ones w/the steel to at least stand up and SAY so and the secret little ones that sneak around in back fixing things while they mouth how wonderful it all is...all I can say is... Too bad, folks. You're missing the real thing, and it's right there under your noses. Later... S.. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 03:39:53 -0600 From: "Jeff Albert" To: , "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: RE: Relaxation Message-ID: <000201c1b797$0d5bcfb0$41269d42@jeff> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think someone on the OTJ forum mentioned basketball... Seriously, I had a teacher that talked about warming up your lungs, and I find when I do Remington type log tones or tonguing exercises with a specific focus on maximizing the usage and efficiency of the breathing apparatus, I feel physically more prepared to play, and better focused. So I guess the short answer was - breathing exercises. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu] On Behalf Of Richard B. Human, Jr. Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2002 11:15 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Relaxation Greetings all, On another topic... What are some methods you use to help your students relax? I'm not concerned specifically with performance anxiety - just over all un-binding of the body so that a good tone and better concentration can be had. I suggest exercise and getting enough rest, but wonder of there are some exercises or techniques that could be used in the actual lesson that address this area. Ideas? Richard ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 20:09:14 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: "Earl Needham" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Tenor Trumpets (Re: Instrument design over the past 100 years or so) Message-ID: <002401c1b799$3cb26c90$7f7968d5@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Earl Needham" > This reference doesn't list a tenor trumpet, but does list a bass > trumpet in B-flat (see http://www.selmer.com/brass/stradtrp/B188.html > ). They list two trumpets pitched in F -- a sopranino and a > contralto. (Wouldn't that be neat in a marching band instead of those > mellophones or marching horns...) > > Other trumpets listed are soprano in E-flat, several rotary-valved > trumpets, etc. > > My personal thought on the tenor trumpet is that the term "bass > trumpet" is incorrect as the instrument actually plays in the tenor > range. Of course, I am just an amateur, too. Seems a lot of instruments are badly labelled. It would make more sense to have tenor trumpets in C/Bb/A, then there would be room for alto trumpets in F/Eb/D. The G flute used to be called a bass flute, and still is in older scores. Since the coming of the bass flute in C, the G flute has become an alto. So why don't they now label the larger C flute a tenor? And why isn't the bass clarinet a tenor clarinet? That would make way for a baritone clarinet in Eb and bass in Bb, instead of contra-alto and contrabass. British brass band instruments have screwy names too. Only the tenor trombone is correct. The Bb cornet has no register label, but as it lies between the soprano cornet and tenor horn, that makes it an alto. Doesn't sound like an alto to me. If all instruments were given the same register labels as the saxophones there would be no confusion. Come to think of it, why is the bass trombone not called a baritone trombone? Adrian ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:51:45 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Tenor Trumpets (Re: Instrument design over the past 100 yearsor so) Message-ID: <002501c1b799$406a6b80$7f7968d5@homel29g9mgyk9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Walter Barrett" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did see a Piccolo clarinet once, at the old Giardenelli's. It was in Ab, and only about 10-12 inches long. Now THAT's a scary thing to imagine hearing! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any kind of clarinet is scary when played above the staff, especially when there's a lot of them in "unison" (I use the term loosely). Adrian ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 08:50:51 -0500 From: sabutin To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Relaxation Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings all, On another topic... What are some methods you use to help your students relax? I'm not concerned specifically with performance anxiety - just over all un-binding of the body so that a good tone and better concentration can be had. I suggest exercise and getting enough rest, but wonder of there are some exercises or techniques that could be used in the actual lesson that address this area. Ideas? Richard ================ Richard... Play them some classic Jack Teagarden and Lester Young, some Pablo Casals and Andre Segovia. If that doesn't work...if the message of relaxation doesn't come through in the playing of these great musicians...then no amount of exercises will reach them. Later... S. P.S. I have found that when I am relaxed my students are relaxed also. It all stats w/the teacher... ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 09:29:04 +0000 From: Walter Barrett To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Relaxation Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 2/17/02 5:14 AM, Richard B. Human, Jr. at richard@trombone.org sent forth into the cosmos: > Greetings all, > > On another topic... > > What are some methods you use to help your students relax? I'm not > concerned specifically with performance anxiety - just over all un-binding > of the body so that a good tone and better concentration can be had. I > suggest exercise and getting enough rest, but wonder of there are some > exercises or techniques that could be used in the actual lesson that address > this area. > > Ideas? > > Richard > I've had some students that scrunch themselves into all sorts of positions, and tighten up various body parts, usually arms and shoulders. I remind them about seated posture constantly ("Sit tall!", "You look like a question mark!", "Does your Mom ever tell you not to slouch?") Many times, both of us can hear the difference in tone at once, and for the students who care about doing well, that and some periodic reminders are enough. (Then there are those who see slouching as a protest against authority...) I have most students sit towards the front edge of their seat, so it's more difficult (not, however, impossible) to slouch. It's amazing how flexible the youth of today are... The hardest thing here is getting the student to realize that good posture isn't necessarily "uncomfortable," it's just DIFFERENT from what they're used to. For my students who tighten up their shoulders and arms, I remind them to relax with a light touch on the shoulder or arm. (or a verbal reminder "shoulders!" if they have any lawyers in the family...) Eventually, you'll need to do it less often as it becomes the more current habit. Walter Barrett "The basic difference between classical music and jazz is that in the former the music is always greater than its performance." -Andre Previn Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 10:47:17 EST From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Relaxation Message-ID: <16a.8f927af.29a12a85@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_16a.8f927af.29a12a85_boundary" richard@trombone.org writes: << What are some methods you use to help your students relax? ÊI'm not concerned specifically with performance anxiety - just over all un-binding of the body so that a good tone and better concentration can be had.>> I have found that a breathing exercise like Joe Alessi's or the one in Roger Bobo's book (for bass trombone players) works when someone needs help to untighten the breathing apparatus. I believe that Joe's exercise is to take in a slow, six count "doctors' office" breath, hold for one count (without any tension) and blow out for a slow six counts. This should be repeated probably 10 times. The Roger Bobo exercise is better for bass trombone, euph and tuba because it is more effective if you have at least two valves. In 3/4 time, blow through the instrument for a half note at MM quarter = 40, resting on beat 3 and take a breath. Repeat three more times. Then with all valves engaged, blow again and notice the difference in resistance to the air and blow that same pattern and total of four times as before but without backing off on the air or making any "diminuendo" in the air. (Remember you are not actually playing any notes, just moving warm air through the open instrument and alternately with all valves engaged.) You repeat this pattern again next time with three measures open, three measures valved, two measures open, two measures valved, then alternate one bar each open then valved four times. Ê Matt Varho Bass Trombonist ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 07:59:54 -0800 From: "Elisabeth Frederick" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Alto trombone info... Message-ID: <002701c1b7cc$24f60980$2672fb3f@d9h2z9> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello List! I was wondering what the appropriate mouthpiece range is for an alto trombone. On my Bach 16m I use an 11C, would it be wise to get a Bach 15 or something of that approximate size? Also....I was looking at Hickeys Catolouge, they have a few alto trombone method books. Does anyone know about them? Is there a 'better' one? I would like to find a book with "directions" about alto, but aimed at someone who can play trombone. :^) Thanks!! Liz ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 08:14:50 -0800 From: "Gary D. Maxwell" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Relaxation Message-ID: <001001c1b7ce$3db4f560$31525d3f@garymaxwell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Walter Barrett" >> I've had some students that scrunch themselves into all sorts of positions, > and tighten up various body parts, usually arms and shoulders. I remind them > about seated posture constantly ("Sit tall!", "You look like a question > mark!", "Does your Mom ever tell you not to slouch?") Many times, both of us > can hear the difference in tone at once, ======================================== Absolutely! And when the student actually hears the better tone, you have something going. For awhile at least. (:>)) ======================================== >and for the students who care about > doing well, that and some periodic reminders are enough. ======================================== Yup. ======================================== >(Then there are > those who see slouching as a protest against authority...) I have most > students sit towards the front edge of their seat, so it's more difficult > (not, however, impossible) to slouch. ======================================== Right from the start I explain that I really have only two rules while playing an instrument. 1. At least two feet on the floor while playing. What you do with the others is up to you. (Just a little humor.) 2. No Backs against Back! (of chair) ======================================== >It's amazing how flexible the youth of > today are... The hardest thing here is getting the student to realize that > good posture isn't necessarily "uncomfortable," it's just DIFFERENT from > what they're used to. ======================================== Right. "I'm not here to teach you good posture. Grandma is assigned that duty". (Again with the humor.) ======================================== > > For my students who tighten up their shoulders and arms, I remind them to > relax with a light touch on the shoulder or arm. (or a verbal reminder > "shoulders!" if they have any lawyers in the family...) Eventually, you'll > need to do it less often as it becomes the more current habit. ======================================== Right on! Gary Maxwell Bass Trombone Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 08:19:04 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Relaxation Message-ID: <20020217161904.87188.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I teach the stretching & breathing exercises that I do myself every day, and I make it clear that I do them EVERY DAY. When I teach every year at a youth orchestra camp situation, I lead a group stretching/breathing session every day for the low brass players. It usually grows over the ten days to include most of the other wind players, and sometimes the precussionists and some string players too. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 08:35:24 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Jazz, Western European tradition, etc Message-ID: <20020217163524.57509.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- sabutin wrote: > I have been absolutely floored by the overt (and > covert) hostility > to the relative validity of the jazz tradition versus > that of Western > European music that I have encountered over the past > several months. I don't usually spend bandwidth on simply agreeing, but...hear, hear. And furthermore, to hold art to the standards that 1. it needs to stand the test of time, measured in hundreds of years, to be considered great and 2. that it should be able to support itself without charitable help, like any good business, is just wrong. Demonstrably, intellectually, morally wrong. Art has always needed the rejuvanation of the new to remain vital. The orchestras that are doing best in the USA right now are the ones who are demonstrating a real committment to 20th and 21st century music. San Francisco is a great example - and the conductors that have been hired recently - Bob Spano in Atlanta, James Levine in Boston - have been hired in no small part because they will take programming risks. For every Beethoven in music history, there are lots of Albrechtsbergers (who taught Beethoven counterpoint and whose name we only know because of the trombone concerto), who were a vital, essential part of their musical culture at the time but are largely forgotten now. Time separates the wheat from the chaff, but the wheat doesn't exist without the chaff. (did I get that expression right?) Beethoven struggled for money his entire life, and only survived because of the small handouts he got from the patrons who were smart enough to listen past his impossibly blunt, rude personality, as well as the friends who were devoted enough to sneak into his apartment when he was sleeping and put new clothes out for him to wear. I'm not making this stuff up. I don't think I need to point out the parallels to the jazz tradition. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 08:42:04 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Tenor Trumpets (Re: Instrument design over the past 100 years or so) Message-ID: <20020217164204.71586.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Adrian Drover wrote: > Come to think of it, why is the bass trombone not called > a baritone > trombone? > > Adrian > > Robin Eubanks likes to call his large-bore tenor a baritone trombone Gabe > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 08:56:19 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: That whole Jazz & Orchestra Thing Message-ID: <20020217165619.98308.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Rod Ellard wrote: > 6.Since when do we owe Sam and his pals a living? If Sam > sells his 'bones > and starts selling bonds for a living, is the world worse > off? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rod, you are truly frightening me. How can a bunch of people who spend time on a subscription list devoted to the trombone, of all things, not agree that the world needs professional musicians? Does it rain > in my neighborhood? So what if Alessi is cleaning up (on > mostly government > money and corporate donations which, in turn, are tax > deductible, so it's > the taxpayers who are ultimately footing this bill too). Alessi is hardly cleaning up, in comparison to the bonds traders. He makes a slightly more than comfortable living in an extremely expensive city - and there's no way, short of very lucky investing, that he's going to become rich by today's standards. > Sam, you should > have practiced those excerpts. I don't have any idea why you would write that. Would you have told J.J. Johnson that? Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303 Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 11:11:37 -0600 From: "David Pozos" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Alto trombone info... Message-ID: <001b01c1b7d6$29071960$4bc2180a@xal.megared.net.mx> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I switch between a 15 and a 22C. The 15 is like an all purpose and the 22 is for Mozart and Beethoven. The 22 also works for Wagner bass trumpet. This is not a recommendation, it«s just what I use. My teacher told me that the idea is to get a little more trumpety sound to fill between the bones and trumpets. That should probably be your criteria for mouthpiece selection. Have fun. David Pozos Primer Tromb—n Orquesta Sinf—nica de Xalapa www.sinfonicadexalapa.com ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Elisabeth Frederick" Para: "Trombones and related issues forum." Enviado: Domingo, 17 de Febrero de 2002 09:59 a.m. Asunto: Alto trombone info... > Hello List! > > I was wondering what the appropriate mouthpiece range is for an alto > trombone. On my Bach 16m I use an 11C, would it be wise to get a Bach 15 or > something of that approximate size? > > Also....I was looking at Hickeys Catolouge, they have a few alto trombone > method books. Does anyone know about them? Is there a 'better' one? I would > like to find a book with "directions" about alto, but aimed at someone who > can play trombone. :^) > > Thanks!! > > Liz ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2303--