TROMBONE-L Digest 2292 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) RE: Mouthpiece info by sabutin 2) RE: Mouthpiece info by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 3) Re: King 607F vs. King 608F by "Daniel Pliskin" 4) RE: Mouthpiece info by Craig Parmerlee 5) Perfect Pitch study by Walter Barrett 6) RE: Mouthpiece info by Gabriel Langfur 7) RE: Mouthpiece info by Douglas Yeo 8) Re: TROMBONE-L digest 2291 by rjlapham@infinet.com (Jerry Lapham) 9) RE: Mouthpiece info by Craig Parmerlee 10) RE: Mouthpiece info by "Daniel Pliskin" 11) RE: Mouthpiece info by Gabriel Langfur 12) Trombone Stand by "Douglas Kilen" 13) Re: [TL]Trombone Stand by Galen Zinn 14) Re: Ergobone Trombone Stand by "Shaun Hillen" 15) Re: Super Bowl (was: Doug Yeo) by "Richard Johnson" 16) Re: Ergobone Trombone Stand by BassBonist@aol.com 17) RE: Mouthpiece info by Randy Campora 18) RE: Mouthpiece info by Craig Parmerlee 19) Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice by "Bart Roberts" 20) RE: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice by "Gary Greenhoe" 21) RE: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice by Phil Burton 22) Re: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice by Earl Needham 23) Re: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice by Brian French 24) RE: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice by "Jeffrey Albert" 25) Re: Phil Teele's book by Gabriel Langfur 26) RE: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice by "Tom G Tyson" 27) Re: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice by Michael & Dava Millar 28) RE: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice by Chris Waage 29) Warming Up (WAS: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice) by "Dale J. Cruse" ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:10:46 -0500 From: sabutin To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Mouthpiece info Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I have to throw this in-the mass is important, but WHERE the mass is - this is even more important. Gary Greenhoe and I are working on a little mouthpiece project that will prove this out. Some prototypes are out being tested now, and I think you will be surprised at 1) how much or little mass is really necessary and 2) where the mass needs to be. I will leave the rest to Gary to explain, and to anyone with a Greenhoe mouthpiece prototype who wants to chime in. :) Best regards, Kevin Saunders ================== I've got several of these prototypes, and although I think the proportions of the throat and backbore and the shape of the cup have a great deal to do w/the overall excellence of the m'pces Gary + Kevin are making, I'm sure the distribution of the mass has a lot to do w/it as well. John Stork told me the same thing several years ago, and I've been playing the heavyweight m'pces he made me for my small horns for at least 5 years. Must be SOMETHING to it... I must add here that one m'pce I got from Kevin + Gary...a small shank m'pce they have designed for specifically for.525 bore instruments...is the single best balanced, most comfortable, natural, and easy to play m'pce I have ever played anywhere on any horn when combined w/my .525 bore Shires. Simply amazing. Opens up the low range almost like a good .547 w/out losing much in the high range when compared to my usual (about 15 years now) bored out 6 1/2AL. Too big, a little too dark for most of what I do as a jazz player (3G-4Gish rim, DEEP cup), but if I were playing that horn in orchestral or chamber situations, I'd switch in a heartbeat.) Later... S. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:19:57 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: kevin@kevingsaunders.com, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Mouthpiece info Message-ID: <81F62454EA21B94EA95517180D7303730243F823@lee-is-102.lee.army.mil> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1AE71.B7B6EA00" And if you wouldn't mind, would you theorize a little bit on why there is an effect?Ź Please understand, I'm not claiming there is no effect, nor being argumentative. And obviously, you are unlikely to know how this really works on a theoretical level.Ź But you must have thought about it, and knowing something about how much mass and where it goes should suggest some mechanisms, and maybe rule out some other ones.Ź After all, it is kind of hard to figure out how the air inside the mouthpiece knows what gets added on to the outside of the mouthpiece - most people won't even speculate. I've thought about it and failed to come up with any answers that even begin to satisfy me. -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Saunders [mailto:kevin@kevingsaunders.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 12:07 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: Mouthpiece info I have to throw this in-the mass is important, but WHERE the mass is - this is even more important. Gary Greenhoe and I are working on a little mouthpiece project that will prove this out. Some prototypes are out being tested now, and I think you will be surprised at 1) how much or little mass is really necessary and 2) where the mass needs to be. I will leave the rest to Gary to explain, and to anyone with a Greenhoe mouthpiece prototype who wants to chime in. :) Best regards, Kevin Saunders -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Gabriel Langfur Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 10:48 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Mouthpiece info --- Jerry Blomberg wrote: > Thanks, Gabe -- > > Does the weight of the mouthpiece blank affect the tone, > or is there really > a problem with a lighter mouthpiece? > Oh boy - big subject. I don't have the time or the real knowledge to go into it in much detail, but the overall mass of the mouthpiece certainly affects the tone and playing characteristics in many ways. I tend to think that WHERE that mass is also makes a difference... If you want to do an experiment, go to a well-stocked music store, preferably with a friend whose ear you trust, and play a standard Bach 1-1/4GM back to back with a Bach Megatone 1-1/4G (or the corresponding 1-1/2s). If I understand correctly, all the inside dimensions will be the same for these two mouthpieces (I think Bach puts the larger M throat in the Megatone mouthpieces - someone please correct me if I'm wrong). The only difference is the blanks they are made from. You will probably notice differences in the articulations and the dynamic curve - by that, I mean the way the tone color changes at different dynamics. You might notice other things as well. What you prefer will depend on you - I like for the mass of the mouthpiece to be in between those two extremes. I could make generalizations about the more specific playing characteristics of lighter vs. heavier mouthpieces, but I'm not sure how useful they would be, because they vary for different players. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 19:13:50 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: King 607F vs. King 608F Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Thank you all. I guess I missed the difference in the brass. Fortunately, I like to get the darkness in my sound from a larger mouthpiece and medium bore, not from the brass or lacquer. So I guess Iāve got the right trombone for me. Itās sad, though, that my other trombones are getting so little attention. DanP _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:29:56 -0400 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Mouthpiece info Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020205151709.01b3ad48@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:19 PM 02/05/2002 -0500, richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL wrote: After all, it is kind of hard to figure out how the air inside the mouthpiece knows what gets added on to the outside of the mouthpiece - most people won't even speculate. I've thought about it and failed to come up with any answers that even begin to satisfy me. I certainly don't have a compelling theory, but I don't think there are that many possibilities. Let's start with some assumptions. a) The mass of a mouthpiece can definitely make a difference observable to the player, and maybe to the listener. b) Heavyweight slides can have different acoustic properties compared to lightweight slides of the same geometry. c) Many people believe that The Brace or bracing in general has a significant effect on the sound production d) All parts of the instrument (mouthpiece, slide, bell section) can easily be felt to be vibrating whenever the instrument is played. So clearly it is about vibrations. I can think of only two major theories. If there are other possibilities I'd like to hear them. Otherwise, I'll leave it to others to debate which of the two following theories is more likely to be governing here. Theory 1. All the vibrations represent loss of energy. To the extent that we reduce the loss of energy (through the mouthpiece, slide or bell section) through unproductive vibration of the metal, we bring the instrument ever closer to its "true potential". Theory 2. The vibrations are part of an amplification/refinement system. The vibrations in a great instrument are a good thing -- part of its essential character. The reason the inventions like Megatone and Brace help in some cases is because they enable us to put more energy into the instrument before reaching the point where we overwhelm the instrument's ability to do its amplification/refinement. By reinforcing the instrument at the most vulnerable points, we allow the amplifier/refiner to operate at louder levels without unacceptable distortion. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 15:27:12 -0500 From: Walter Barrett To: "Trombones and related issues forum." , TubaEuph List , Subject: Perfect Pitch study Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In the latest International Musician (Union paper), there's a brief mention of a study being conducted at UCSF. They're looking at a possible genetic link to absolute (perfect) pitch. After a brief questionnaire, you listen to 80 tones, 40 are pure sine waves, 40 are piano notes, and you click the name of the note on the little on-screen piano keyboard. If you have a dial-up connection, the whole thing takes about 30-35 minutes, because each group of 10 tones takes 2-3 minutes to load. If you meet their criteria for absolute pitch, then they might arrange to take a blood sample for DNA testing. Let's just say that they won't be asking for MY blood, unless they want a control group! I did almost 2x better identifying the piano tones vs. the sine tones. If it had been trombone sounds, maybe I would have aced it? Very interesting! Here's the link... http://perfectpitch.ucsf.edu/ Walter "Test, schmest! Where's the Guinness?" Barrett Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:00:57 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Mouthpiece info Message-ID: <20020205210057.54450.qmail@web10302.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Craig Parmerlee wrote: > So clearly it is about vibrations. I can think of only > two major > theories. If there are other possibilities I'd like to > hear > them. Craig, it seems to me that your two theories are essentially gradations of the same theory - maybe I didn't read carefully enough. Anyway, based on my limited understanding, your general principles are correct. I've heard a convincing theory that there's an additional factor, which is affected most by the mass of the mouthpiece - the actual buzz being produced, the vibration at the lips. I think we all more or less agree that the ability to buzz the mouthpiece and/or free buzz accurately greatly enhances our ability to play the instrument. But when we're playing the instrument, the buzz doesn't exist all by itself - it's part of a larger system. One theory for why the mass distribution of the instrument and mouthpiece affect the playing characteristics of the instrument (despite the argument physicists have made for years that the vibrating column of air doesn't care about the mass of its container) is that the amount of energy lost by the container affects the source of the vibration directly. In other words, the mass of the mouthpiece and the rest of the instrument CHANGES THE BUZZ ITSELF. There is a continuous loop of feedback: we produce a vibration, which is then amplified by the instrument, but feedback from the instrument also has an effect on the vibration. I think that's why the ability to buzz accurately, independent of the instrument, is so important (I think it also explains why it's possible at all to play a pitch on the instrument, remove the mouthpiece, and have the buzz remaining be a completely different pitch). If we are always producing exactly the pitch we want at the point of the buzz, AND the instrument is the right length (the slide's in the right place), then the feedback from the instrument is that much stronger and closer to instantaneous, giving us fuller tone, better pitch and cleaner articulations. The distribution of mass on the mouthpiece and other parts of the instrument affects that feedback - and how much and what kind of feedback a player wants is a very individual thing. That's why there's no such thing as a one-size-fits-all trombone, and why different players will get different results from heavier or lighter mouthpieces. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:03:56 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Mouthpiece info Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 1:19 PM -0500 2/5/02, richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL wrote: And if you wouldn't mind, would you theorize a little bit on why there is an effect? I went through a similar process when working with Yamaha on the mouthpiece which they subsequently have manufactured as the "Douglas Yeo Signature Series Mouthpiece." You can read a bit about the development of the mouthpiece, including experiments with different external mass, at: http://www.yeodoug.com/mouthpiece.html In short, we found in our experiments (and we made several dozen prototypes with various external shapes, backbore designs, etc, was that having added mass in particular areas (near the rim, the throat, bottom of the cup, etc) had a dramatic effect on both the feel and the sound. Mouthpieces with very little mass tended to be very flexible but didn't hold up very well in loud dynamics. Those with heavy mass around allowed one to play very loudly with a concentrated sound but required much more work to play and were more difficult to play softly. WHY? Many reasons, I think. The mouthpiece is the first part of the instrument to vibrate. Heavier mass deadens vibrations. A thin mouthpiece at the bottom of the cup will sound different than one with heavy mass. The scientific reason for this is something I don't know, and I'm sure people will argue about it. What I DO know is what, through the trial and error process, worked, and what didn't work. What we finally came up was what I thought was the best overall mouthpiece which had the most benefits and the fewest compromises. To see photos of some of the prototypes Yamaha and I worked with, you can go to: http://www.yeodoug.com/yeo_mouthpiece_prototypes.html All of the mouthpieces shown have an identical cup volume. Several were made of each design, with different throats and backbores. All play differently - and when comparing all of the mouthpieces which have the same throat and backbore but have different external mass, they are still hugely different. I'm not a designer, engineer or scientist. While I like to know the reasons why things work, what matters most to me, in working to develop equipment, is that it works. Your results may vary. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:58:07 -0500 From: rjlapham@infinet.com (Jerry Lapham) To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: TROMBONE-L digest 2291 Message-ID: <200202052109.g15L9Dn50115@mail4.mx.voyager.net> In <200202051804.g15I4TC16261@po.missouri.edu>, on 02/05/02 at 12:04 PM, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu said: > 1. Check the address to which you sent the message. Messages to be > sent to the trombone-l must be sent to the address of > trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu. Sending to any other address will > result in your message not being posted. > 2. The list is set to automatically reply to sender, rather than to > the entire list. If you reply to a post, it will be sent only to the > original poster, not the entire list unless you change the address. I'm replying to the FROM: address, trombone-l@po.missouri.edu. Where is it going? -Jerry -- ============================================================ Jerry Lapham, Monroe, OH E-Mail: rjlapham@infinet.com Written Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 02:58 PM (EST) ============================================================ MR/2 Ice tag: Taglines: Take all you want. We'll make more. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 17:34:16 -0400 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Mouthpiece info Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020205172910.00b95de0@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:00 PM 02/05/2002 -0800, Gabriel Langfur wrote: --- Craig Parmerlee wrote: > So clearly it is about vibrations. I can think of only > two major > theories. If there are other possibilities I'd like to > hear > them. Craig, it seems to me that your two theories are essentially gradations of the same theory No, I think they are practically opposite. I probably didn't explain them very well. Theory 1 says that everything important happens inside the tube. Any vibrations in the instrument (and therefore radiations through the body of the instrument) represent loss of energy and are bad. Theory 2 says that the vibrations of the instrument are essential to the character of the instrument and are good. In a great instrument, they amplify and refine the sound. In a lesser instrument they may cause more destructive interference. Even in a great instrument you can get too much of a good thing. Instruments have their breaking points where that desirable vibration becomes noise/distortion. In these cases, the extra mass or bracing may allow more energy to be put into the instrument. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 21:36:36 From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Mouthpiece info Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Craig, I assume that youāre not proposing that only one of your two theories can be correct? Iāve had the opportunity to play with lots of trombones. I own lots of trombones. Universally, I prefer the tome of a trombone that has no lacquer and a minimum of cross-braces. At the same time, I appreciate the tonal change achieved from heavy mouthpieces and Brace-like additions to my slide. I donāt generally add weights to my setup, but I would, in a heartbeat, if I was playing Dixie, and the like. As such, Iād have to say that thereās a balance between wanting parts of the trombone to vibrate and wanting sections of tubing to not vibrate, so much. But what did we expect? Were we expecting a hard and fast rule, to fall out of this discussion, like ćthe heavier a trombone is, the better?ä No, Iām afraid weāre into discussing the artistry of making trombones and individual taste for how a trombone should sound. DanP Parmerlee Reply-To: craig@acticalc.com To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Mouthpiece info Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 17:34:16 -0400 At 01:00 PM 02/05/2002 -0800, Gabriel Langfur wrote: --- Craig Parmerlee wrote: > So clearly it is about vibrations. I can think of only > two major > theories. If there are other possibilities I'd like to > hear > them. Craig, it seems to me that your two theories are essentially gradations of the same theory No, I think they are practically opposite. I probably didn't explain them very well. Theory 1 says that everything important happens inside the tube. Any vibrations in the instrument (and therefore radiations through the body of the instrument) represent loss of energy and are bad. Theory 2 says that the vibrations of the instrument are essential to the character of the instrument and are good. In a great instrument, they amplify and refine the sound. In a lesser instrument they may cause more destructive interference. Even in a great instrument you can get too much of a good thing. Instruments have their breaking points where that desirable vibration becomes noise/distortion. In these cases, the extra mass or bracing may allow more energy to be put into the instrument. _________________________________________________________________ Join the worldās largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 13:57:03 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Mouthpiece info Message-ID: <20020205215703.50079.qmail@web10306.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Craig, you're right, I didn't quite understand...semantics...anyway, I think theory 2 is probably the most realistic way of thinking about it. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 16:01:24 -0600 From: "Douglas Kilen" To: Subject: Trombone Stand Message-ID: <000101c1ae90$a7f576d0$a012e0d1@kilen> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone posted to the list a few months ago about a new trombone stand that could be used in both the standing and sitting positions. Does anyone still have the link for that? If you do, please send it to me. Thanks! Doug Kilen ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 14:20:40 -0800 From: Galen Zinn To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: [TL]Trombone Stand Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 2/5/02 2:01 PM, Douglas Kilen blasted this into the cosmos: > Someone posted to the list a few months ago about a new trombone stand > that could be used in both the standing and sitting positions. Does > anyone still have the link for that? If you do, please send it to me. > Thanks! > > Doug Kilen > Try this: http://www.ergobone.com/mainpage.html Galen Zinn E-mail: zinger@musician.org ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:14:14 -0600 From: "Shaun Hillen" To: Subject: Re: Ergobone Trombone Stand Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just got my ergobone a couple of weeks ago. It works pretty well. However, I refrain from using it until my left arm or wrist starts to hurt. It adds a little more practice time (depending on how much longer your chops will last). I used it for about an hour when I first tried it out and then I took it off and tried to play without it. Let me tell you, the instrument felt INCREDIBLY heavy after using the ergobone for that long. That's why I wait until I'm tired to use it. I think if you use it too much you can come to depend upon it too much. --Shaun ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 17:26:43 -0600 From: "Richard Johnson" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Super Bowl (was: Doug Yeo) Message-ID: <005601c1ae9c$928e1200$42ab9d42@zemry> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Congrats on the outcome of the game! I thoroughly enjoyed reading your diary and enjoyed hearing the Boston Pops play even more. I glad that you were able to enjoy the once in a lifetime trip. ( I really can't see the Patriots going back to the Super Bowl in our lifetime:) ) I am glad that you enjoyed it so! Take care and God bless! **************************************************************************** ** Richard Zemry Johnson, Jr. "The Untouchables" Jazz Ensemble Shreveport Metropolitan Concert Band ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, , "There won't come a time when you won't have to practice anymore." J. J. Johnson **************************************************************************** ***** I'm not satisfied with anything about my playing. I know what I want. I can hear it; but it will take time and study to get it" -Sonny Rollins (1956) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Yeo" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 7:56 AM Subject: Re: Super Bowl (was: Doug Yeo) > I'm back, and what a weekend it was. > > It's a rare event, but I think I've run out of words to describe the > experience. I've updated my diary for the last time (apart from > adding some more photos when they are developed later in the week). > Tomorrow I will reformat it to read in chronological order. > > We in Boston are enjoying this so much. Our seats at the game were > fabulous, and when the winning field goal was kicked, it came right > to us. The Patriot's section was pure pandemonium. I have no voice > left - but it was all worth it. The game was very exciting, and > interesting as well, surely one of the most interesting Super Bowl > games ever. Of course we in Boston think so! > > The odds at the beginning of the season against the Patriots winning > the Super Bowl were 10,000 - 1. You never know what will happen. > > And the New England Patriots are now 6-0 when BSO/Boston Pops players > perform the National Anthem at Patriots games. Here's hoping we can > keep that roll going! > > I appreciate all the email messages so many of you have sent to me. > We have a nice community here on the list, and I appreciate being > part of it. > > Things will need to settle down a little this week, we're playing > Brahms 4 with the BSO. But, we're still on cloud 9 here in Boston.... > > > -Doug Yeo > ********************************************** > * Douglas Yeo * > * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * > * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * > * yeo@yeodoug.com * > * http://www.yeodoug.com * > * <>< * > ********************************************** > ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2002 19:47:06 EST From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Ergobone Trombone Stand Message-ID: <33.21faa2b5.2991d70a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_33.21faa2b5.2991d70a_boundary" shaun.hillen@visd.com writes: <> Probably a good idea. Now I have a question for you about it: Do you find that it hinders your ability to let the horn make micro pivot movements when adjusting for different registers? I made a goofy homemade version and that's what I didn't like about it. I DID like the fact that it takes pretty much all strain off the left arm and wrist. Still gonna stick to my good ol' Greenhoe Rest Bar though! Matt Varho Bass Trombonist Freelance, Los Angeles ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 21:38:55 -0500 From: Randy Campora To: glangfur@yahoo.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Mouthpiece info Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020205212846.02490db0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I had Schilke make me a "heavy rim" a couple years ago for a 60 variation that had a screw rim on it, just to see what it would do. I have a regular screw rim and this "heavy" screw rim, and I use the regular most of the time, but the heavy rim is a little more comfy for pieces that have sustained FFF dynamics (Shostakovich, Prokofiev's Ivan the Terrible are examples). To make the heavy rim, I just asked Schilke to not undercut the rim, so it is not sculpted down to the cup as usual, just a big rim that does not taper back to the cup underneath. I too have experimented with heavier mouthpieces, and the short answer is that they are not my cup of tea for all purpose playing. After trying this heavy rim, I feel that for me I prefer a little more mass around the rim (even the regular screw rim Schilke made has a bit more mass there than a stock one piece does), and that I don't like too much extra mass down at the bottom of the cup. I feel the mass at the rim gives a slight solidity without damaging the response. By far the heaviest I ever tried was a Monette. It also was not my thing, but I was amazed that for a mouthpiece as heavy as it was (it will break your toe if you ever dropped it) it did respond well in the PP dynamic range. Monette uses a very soft metal, I don't know if it is gold brass and then softened from there or just yellow brass baked until it's almost gooey, or what, but it behaved a lot better than I would have predicted based on how heavy it is. I asked Monette about the metal and the softening, and he said "trade secret, can't tell you", though we did talk about other aspects such as cup size, throat shape, backbore etc. It will be fun to see what Gary's design looks like. Randy Campora Baltimore Symphony Orchestra ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2002 22:51:02 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@po.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Mouthpiece info Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020205225006.01f1c808@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:57 PM 2/5/2002 -0800, Gabriel Langfur wrote: Craig, you're right, I didn't quite understand...semantics...anyway, I think theory 2 is probably the most realistic way of thinking about it. Gabe Yeah. I like theory #2 also. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 00:54:53 -0500 From: "Bart Roberts" To: Subject: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I am asking for any advice any one would like to share on doubling between tenor/bass. I am primarily a tenor player but was forced in the college wind ensemble I am in to play bass trombone. I realize that it can help me as a player. I just am having some real issues right now with it from a physical and mental standpoint. Any assistance would be great. Just for some background info I play a Shires tenor with an Elliot g cup with a 102 rim on my tenor and a Getzen 1062 with an Elliot K and a 106 rim. Please email me privately as well as post to list. Thanks Bart Roberts ___________________________________________ Bart Roberts Band/Trombone Graduate Assistant Ball State University Bands http://www.bsu.edu/cfa/music/bands Muncie, Indiana ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 01:14:25 -0600 From: "Gary Greenhoe" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." , Subject: RE: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bart, It would help to know more about the physical and mental issues. Since you use the word "forced", I can only assume that you don't desire to play bass. However, you mention that you have a Getzen bass. I would first want to know if it is actually your horn...or a school horn being forced upon you. Assuming that it is yours, it would lead me to think you have had some desire to familiarize yourself with bass trombone. If that's the case, I personally would welcome this opportunity to become the best Bass trombonist you can. I have, over the years, spent some serious time learning to be proficient on bass....although I don't expect to become another Doug Yeo! It is a marvelous instrument, and can be incredibly rewarding as one gains proficiency. But more than that, I do believe that a tenor trombonist that spends quality time developing sound and low range on bass can benefit greatly when returning to tenor. At first it can feel absolutely awful, and one can feel stranded between both instruments. Personally, I solved this loss of control or foundation by playing almost exclusively the bass trombone for around a month. I reset my head and concepts to imagine that I was actually Doug. In time the instrument became more comfortable and my sound and concepts were actually shifting to something that became acceptable and exciting to me. The more I divorced myself from my long term tenor concepts..the more fun it was to play bass. But, again, I realized it would not develop overnight. I recall using mental images to help in my quest. ...like the image of a snake swallowing a rodent ;-)...which helped me to stretch my jaws to the max...and to open/relax my throat and chest for maximum air flow.....but the air flow needed to be more like a wide slow moving river....rather than the velocity of a fast moving stream. I also thought of a camera's lens aperture. It's like taking low light photographs.....rather than small bright light photographs. Canoeing also comes to mind with the tongue development on bass. As one paddles quietly on a river, the paddle has to be presented into the water with a wide slow entry without smacking the surface of the water. On tenor, I think one becomes accustomed to a more pointed attack. These were just a few of many concepts I felt compelled to re-evaluate as I built a new foundation. Was it Jim Fixx of running fame that coined "LSD" or Long, Slow, Distance. That's how I felt I needed to begin my journey on bass. As I became more grounded with my bass concepts over that time....I would gradually add tenor into the mix. To my amazement, I discovered that my tenor range had suffered VERY little! There were many other benefits from this approach too. I found that I could add more depth or dimension to my tenor sound than before. But I did not loose any of the tenor qualities that I have always desired, either. BTW, similar concepts have helped me tremendously in developing small bore tenor and alto trombone facility. In short, I have always used low range exercises on tenor to develop sound concepts and relaxation throughout the tenor range (thanks "Chief") and I feel that incorporating a much larger mouthpiece and instrument into that philosophy can enhance you as a player in numerous ways. It would be great if you could decide when in your career you would like to try this fork in the road. But if the situation is being forced upon you....I understand that it can be frustrating and difficult to approach as an exciting opportunity. It's late...been a long day...and I apologize if this makes no sense! Regards, Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Bart Roberts Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 11:55 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice Hello All, I am asking for any advice any one would like to share on doubling between tenor/bass. I am primarily a tenor player but was forced in the college wind ensemble I am in to play bass trombone. I realize that it can help me as a player. I just am having some real issues right now with it from a physical and mental standpoint. Any assistance would be great. Just for some background info I play a Shires tenor with an Elliot g cup with a 102 rim on my tenor and a Getzen 1062 with an Elliot K and a 106 rim. Please email me privately as well as post to list. Thanks Bart Roberts ___________________________________________ Bart Roberts Band/Trombone Graduate Assistant Ball State University Bands http://www.bsu.edu/cfa/music/bands Muncie, Indiana ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 05:19:22 -0700 From: Phil Burton To: , Subject: RE: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020206050948.00aabdd0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_1630240==_.ALT" At 12:14 AM 2/6/2002, you wrote: Hi Bart, If that's the case, I personally would welcome this opportunity to become the best Bass trombonist you can. I have, over the years, spent some serious time learning to be proficient on bass....although I don't expect to become another Doug Yeo! It is a marvelous instrument, and can be incredibly rewarding as one gains proficiency. . Hi Gary, I wholeheartedly agree with your reply to Bart. I am in the "learning phase" on Bass Trombone myself, and agree, the more I play it, the more I love playing it. When I go back to Tenor, I actually miss the deep rich sound that I have on the Bass. You better be careful of your comments, as your ideas could be confused with the excellent comments of Doug Yeo and Sam Burtis. This mail list is about the most informative source of knowledge out there. Thanks Phil Burton Great Falls, MT. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 06:48:40 -0700 From: Earl Needham To: bmroberts@iquest.net, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice Message-ID: <4.2.2.20020206064736.00a9fa08@pop3.norton.antivirus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:54 AM 2/6/2002 -0500, Bart Roberts wrote: Hello All, I am asking for any advice any one would like to share on doubling between tenor/bass. I am primarily a tenor player but was forced in the college wind ensemble I am in to play bass trombone. I realize that it can help me as a player. I just am having some real issues right now with it from a physical and mental standpoint. Any assistance would be great. The biggest help for me was having some good recordings to listen to so that I had a real concept of what I should sound like. Try to find recordings of Doug and George Roberts for starters. Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB, Clovis, New Mexico KD5XB-2>APU24L,WA5IHL-11,K5BEN-15,WA5IHL-7,W5SF-1,K5CQH-15,WB5EKP-1*,TRACE7- 1:=3425.84N/10313.56W-[DM84] Pet peeve #1: You look at a "SITE" with your "SIGHT". Pet peeve #2: "Congratulations" does NOT have a "d" in it. Old pet peeve: People who get themselves on a mailing list and then can't figure out how to get OFF the list, then repeatedly sending "unsubscribe" or "remove" as one-word messages to the list. ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:12:29 -0500 From: Brian French To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice Message-ID: <3C6139CD.6050105@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bart et al., I agree with Gary Greenhoe's response to your post. The most important thing he said was to "welcome this opportunity to become the best bass trombonist you can." It can be a whole lot of fun. I bought a bass trombone shortly before my freshman year of college, figuring that, as low-man on the totem pole, I'd be playing a lot of low-man parts, as there were a couple more ensembles than there were bass trombone majors. Well, I was fortunate enough to play principal and second parts most of the time, but I made it a point to request bass trombone parts in the brass choir and trombone choir. It was a great learning experience, and a great load of fun, and it turned out to be pretty profitable. Most of my gigs during school were as a bass trombonist; I was even called once at the last minute to play an entire summer festival as a bass trombonist; I continue to play jobs and sub as a bass trombonist. I once had a lot of trouble with "bass-face," that icky feeling when you first switch back to tenor. I considered having Schilke make a mouthpiece that had a 52 rim and a 60 cup. How awful that would sound, not to mention it would look like a fishbowl. So instead I found the most comfortable mouthpiece (for me, a 58) that would allow me to transition back to tenor with a minimal amount of bass-face. I know, you probably have 10 minutes in between ensemble rehearsals. I used that time to really "forget" about having just played bass and buzz a bit on the tenor mouthpiece. After a couple of weeks sticking to this routine, life became a lot easier. Mind you, my personal practice routine only included about 15-20% of bass time. Another thing that helped greatly is that I had a secondary teacher in school who was an extremely proficient doubler, one of the most prolific freelancers in the Chicago area . . . he definitely understood what I was going through, what I wanted to achieve, and how to be successful at it. Maybe your teacher is a good doubler, but if not, it would be a pretty good investment to get a private lesson from one. True, skills developed by playing bass trombone can benefit your tenor playing. But it's just hip to play bass every so often. I wish I had a bass sackbut, you know, the one with the pivoting handle. How cool would that be?! Brian _____________________________ Brian E. French Principal Trombone Winston-Salem Symphony Orchestra ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 08:09:33 -0600 From: "Jeffrey Albert" To: , "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: RE: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice Message-ID: <000c01c1af17$e7305ea0$60249d42@user> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So instead I found the most comfortable mouthpiece (for me, a *Schilke* 58) that would allow me to transition back to tenor with a minimal amount of bass-face ========================================================= I have to agree with this. As a tenor player that may go weeks without playing bass, but then have just a week's notice to play a big band book full of Les Elgart charts (and the fun but exposed bass bone parts in them), I have had great luck using a Schilke 58. It allows me to go from one horn to the other with the best musical results and the easiest transition in each direction. Jeff Albert www.jeffalbert.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 06:56:04 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Cc: stjones@umbc.edu Subject: Re: Phil Teele's book Message-ID: <20020206145604.24517.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I meant to respond to this last week... --- Stephen Jones wrote: > I'm not a bass trombonist (I play a straight King 3B) and > wondered how > practical it would be for me to get the Teele book. Get Paul Kemp's book (he's on the list of course). I bought it from him to use when teaching tenor players, and it's excellent. Very well adapted for tenor playing from Phil's ideas, and I even found some of it helpful in modifying Phil's exercises to work a little better for me. If you can afford it buy both, just because Phil's book is so wonderfully direct...it's very short though, so if a friend has it, you can read it in about 10 minutes. I actually read mine over & over to keep reminding myself how simple it should be... As a side note, I'm amazed at how effective this long tone routine is. Things that I've always struggled with have become MUCH easier because I'm that much stronger. And it's not just in the registers I cover with the exercises - they really make the embouchure stronger and more responsive on the entire range of the instrument. It seemed really daunting to start doing the routine, mostly because I couldn't actually do the warmup or Day 1 the way Phil specified! But I called him to ask him about it & he was REALLY helpful (his home phone number is right in the jacket of "Low & Outside"). Very nice guy. I'm sure he and Paul would both be willing to answer your questions about their exercises. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:22:25 -0500 From: "Tom G Tyson" To: "'Trombones and related issues forum.'" Subject: RE: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice Message-ID: <000801c1af2a$777f4040$45ddbfa8@DD943111> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1AF00.8EA93840" I agree with Earl, though I've only been playing bass since Sept. - I also recommend Nelson Riddle CDs, once again there's a lot Of George Roberts there, plus Riddle really knew how to arrange for a trombone section. I love playing bass 'bone and hope you find it fun also. - Tom -----Original Message----- From: Earl Needham Subject: Re: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice At 12:54 AM 2/6/2002 -0500, Bart Roberts wrote: >Hello All, > >I am asking for any advice any one would >like to share on doubling between tenor/bass. The biggest help for me was having some good recordings to listen to so that I had a real concept of what I should sound like. Try to find recordings of Doug and George Roberts for starters. Earl ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:17:51 -0800 From: Michael & Dava Millar To: gary@greenhoe.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice Message-ID: <3C61653F.6DCB59D3@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary's post says a lot, and says it very well: live with your double and learn to love it. One thought I'd add is this: learn to switch comfortably between your primary instrument and your double. If you wait until you get a call for your double and then start woodshedding on it, you're creating a stressful situation for yourself. I play primarily bass trombone, but I work in one or more of my tenors with my practicing every day. I have certain exercises where I switch between tenor and bass every couple of minutes. The goal, as I see it, should be to convince your chops and your brain that picking up that double is completely natural, something you wouldn't worry about for a second. A couple of weeks a go, Lloyd Ulyate told me that he has never worried about warming up. Since he hasn't always had the luxury of warmup time on jobs, he hasn't allowed himself to regard warmup as a necessary thing to have. Doubling is like that -- get yourself to the point where you don't think about it. Michael Millar Gary Greenhoe wrote: > > Hi Bart, > > It would help to know more about the physical and mental issues. Since you > use the word "forced", I can only assume that you don't desire to play bass. > However, you mention that you have a Getzen bass. I would first want to > know if it is actually your horn...or a school horn being forced upon you. > > Assuming that it is yours, it would lead me to think you have had some > desire to familiarize yourself with bass trombone. > > If that's the case, I personally would welcome this opportunity to become > the best Bass trombonist you can. I have, over the years, spent some > serious time learning to be proficient on bass....although I don't expect to > become another Doug Yeo! It is a marvelous instrument, and can be > incredibly rewarding as one gains proficiency. > > But more than that, I do believe that a tenor trombonist that spends quality > time developing sound and low range on bass can benefit greatly when > returning to tenor. At first it can feel absolutely awful, and one can feel > stranded between both instruments. Personally, I solved this loss of > control or foundation by playing almost exclusively the bass trombone for > around a month. I reset my head and concepts to imagine that I was actually > Doug. In time the instrument became more comfortable and my sound and > concepts were actually shifting to something that became acceptable and > exciting to me. The more I divorced myself from my long term tenor > concepts..the more fun it was to play bass. But, again, I realized it would > not develop overnight. I recall using mental images to help in my quest. > ...like the image of a snake swallowing a rodent ;-)...which helped me to > stretch my jaws to the max...and to open/relax my throat and chest for > maximum air flow.....but the air flow needed to be more like a wide slow > moving river....rather than the velocity of a fast moving stream. I also > thought of a camera's lens aperture. It's like taking low light > photographs.....rather than small bright light photographs. Canoeing also > comes to mind with the tongue development on bass. As one paddles quietly > on a river, the paddle has to be presented into the water with a wide slow > entry without smacking the surface of the water. On tenor, I think one > becomes accustomed to a more pointed attack. These were just a few of many > concepts I felt compelled to re-evaluate as I built a new foundation. Was > it Jim Fixx of running fame that coined "LSD" or Long, Slow, Distance. > That's how I felt I needed to begin my journey on bass. > > As I became more grounded with my bass concepts over that time....I would > gradually add tenor into the mix. To my amazement, I discovered that my > tenor range had suffered VERY little! There were many other benefits from > this approach too. I found that I could add more depth or dimension to my > tenor sound than before. But I did not loose any of the tenor qualities > that I have always desired, either. BTW, similar concepts have helped me > tremendously in developing small bore tenor and alto trombone facility. > > In short, I have always used low range exercises on tenor to develop sound > concepts and relaxation throughout the tenor range (thanks "Chief") and I > feel that incorporating a much larger mouthpiece and instrument into that > philosophy can enhance you as a player in numerous ways. It would be great > if you could decide when in your career you would like to try this fork in > the road. But if the situation is being forced upon you....I understand > that it can be frustrating and difficult to approach as an exciting > opportunity. > > It's late...been a long day...and I apologize if this makes no sense! > > Regards, > Gary > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu > [mailto:owner-trombone-l@po.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Bart Roberts > Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 11:55 PM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice > > Hello All, > > I am asking for any advice any one would > like to share on doubling between tenor/bass. > > I am primarily a tenor player but was forced in the college > wind ensemble I am in to play bass trombone. I realize that > it can help me as a player. I just am having some real issues > right now with it from a physical and mental standpoint. Any > assistance would be great. > > Just for some background info I play a Shires tenor with an > Elliot g cup with a 102 rim on my tenor and a Getzen 1062 with > an Elliot K and a 106 rim. > > Please email me privately as well as post to list. > > Thanks > > Bart Roberts > ___________________________________________ > Bart Roberts > Band/Trombone Graduate Assistant > Ball State University Bands > http://www.bsu.edu/cfa/music/bands > Muncie, Indiana -- ============================================= Michael W. Millar, D.M.A. Dava S. Millar, R.N., M.B.A. 25430 Via Impreso Valencia, CA, 91355 (818) 901-6843 FAX (661) 253-2999 ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 00:17:17 -0600 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: RE: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 12:54 AM 2/6/2002 -0500, Bart Roberts wrote: >Hello All, > >I am asking for any advice any one would >like to share on doubling between tenor/bass. I had to approach it from the other direction about two years ago - bass to tenor. To quote, "90% of it is half mental." Paul Hunt had some great suggestions for me, and they work well in reverse: 1. Don't worry so much about equipment. Find something that gets the results you need - don't go to a Schilke 60 on a .562/.578 dual bore inline Thayer with 10-1/2" bell. For most (about 95%) concert band and orchestral literature, a single rotor bass will work well. Get a Bach 2G or 1-1/2G, or a Schilke 58. 2. Treat it like a true double - you'll have to devote specific practice time to it, just as you would euphonium, tuba, or any other instrument. 3. It's a tonal concept thing - listen to the difference between the great tenor voices and the great bass voices out there. The tenor has a different projection and timbre from the bass. To me, the biggest problem wasn't tonal concept or range, it was the mouthpiece. I switched to a Schilke 59 in 1980, and have played something very similar in size (either a Doug Elliott or a Yamaha Doug Yeo) ever since. Moving to a Bach 5G to play tenor felt like I had just switched to trumpet! However, I found that a tenor mouthpiece with a very wide rim made things work better - I used a Greg Black Alessi 5 or 6 for most of my work. It's about a 4G in size, but has a very wide rim that makes the outside diameter about the same size as my Doug Yeo mouthpiece. For tenor to bass, though, that's probably not a factor. The biggest problem you'll run into is being able to really roar in the low ranges without losing any of your tenor range. Time and application is the only real cure. In a nutshell, find equipment that works for you, get the sound you want locked into your head, and hit the practice room. ;-) Chris -- ________________________________________________ Chris Waage, Associate Webmaster chris@trombone.org http://www.trombone.org - A web site for trombonists ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292 Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2002 12:41:31 -0500 From: "Dale J. Cruse" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Warming Up (WAS: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice) Message-ID: <025601c1af35$83e190d0$70d92444@union1.nj.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---- Original Message ----- From: "Michael & Dava Millar" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 12:17 PM Subject: Re: Bass Trombone/Tenor Trombone Doubling Advice > A couple of weeks a go, Lloyd Ulyate told me that he has never worried > about warming up. Since he hasn't always had the luxury of warmup time > on jobs, he hasn't allowed himself to regard warmup as a necessary thing > to have. Doubling is like that -- get yourself to the point where you > don't think about it. > > Michael Millar Hoo boy! Warming up is worth its own discussion. Years ago I heard Dale Clevenger (principal hornist of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra) say that he never warms up because he never cools down. With all the playing he does in the CSO, chamber groups, lessons, etc., etc., his chops were/are always ready to go. While that's something to strive for, I would never say don't warm up at all - I'm just saying that we all need different amounts and types of warmups depending on the situation and where we are in our musical development. I'm also an electric bassist and recently attended a master class with Victor Wooten (from Bela Fleck and the Flecktones) where he talked about his favorite warmup - a good game of basketball! Instead of concentrating on warming up his fingers, he liked to warm up his entire body. I don't recall anywhere in the Remington Warm-Up Studies does it say, "Go play a quick game of one-on-one!" Different strokes for different folks. ;-) Dale J. Cruse dale@dalecruse.com http://www.dalecruse.com ----__ListProc__NextPart____TROMBONE-L__digest_2292--