TROMBONE-L Digest 1845 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Re: Grondahl Trombone Concerto Question by Douglas Yeo 2) RE: Alto Trombone - Fun, Fun, Fun by "Richardson, Tim" 3) Berlioz recording by Douglas Yeo 4) RE: Britt Woodman by sabutin@mindspring.com 5) RE: Double posts.. by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 6) Doug Wright's Mahler 1 Mute by Nancy Vogt 7) Re: Alto Trombone Quick-tip Help by ROSEBONE@aol.com 8) Re: SV: Silver bells...silver bells...plus laquer by sabutin@mindspring.com 9) REGARDING DOUBLE MESSAGES by Listmonitor Trombone-L 10) Re: Bass trombone in jazz by Walter Barrett 11) Re: Bass trombone players who won't play the written music by "Gary D. Maxwell" 12) Re: Du-wah with hand in 10 1/2" Bell by Walter Barrett 13) RE: SV: Silver bells...silver bells...plus lacquer by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 14) Jazz bass trombonists-Jeff Nelson NOT Jeff reynolds by Charles 15) RE: SV: Silver bells...silver bells...plus lacquer by "Andrew Elms" 16) Re: Bass trombone players who won't play the written music by "Kathy-Green -TJ" 17) Re: The Mighty Trombone Stand by "Chuck De Paolo" 18) Re: The Mighty Trombone Stand by Chris Waage 19) Al Grey by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 20) Re: Treating the sick (was bass tbn down an octave, etc) by "Rodney Ellard" 21) Re: Bass trombone players who won't play the written music by "Adrian Drover" 22) Re: Bass trombone in jazz by "Adrian Drover" 23) Re: The Mighty Trombone Stand by "Dennis Clason" 24) RE: Alto Trombone - Fun, Fun, Fun by Wayne Dyess 25) Re: Treating the sick (was bass tbn down an octave, etc) by Gabriel Langfur 26) Re: Bass trombone players who won't play the written music by Gabriel Langfur 27) Re: Bass trombone players who won't play the written music by "Aaron Roth" 28) Re: Jazz bass trombonists by "Adrian Drover" 29) Re: Jazz bass trombonists by "Gary D. Maxwell" 30) Name that instrument by Beth Lewis 31) RE: Name that instrument by Steve Gamble 32) Re: Double posts.. by H du Plooy 33) RE: Alto Trombone - Fun, Fun, Fun by "Richardson, Tim" 34) Re: The Mighty Trombone Stand by Craig Parmerlee 35) WolfPak Update by "Chuck De Paolo" 36) Re: Treating the sick (was bass tbn down an octave, etc) by Craig Parmerlee 37) Re: The Mighty Trombone Stand by "Dean McCarty" 38) Re: Alto Trombone - Fun, Fun, Fun by "Dean McCarty" 39) Re: Jazz bass trombonists by "Dean McCarty" 40) Arbans Received by lewismm@songs.sce.com 41) RE: Bass trombone players who won't play the written music by "Andrew Elms" 42) More on Grondahl (new edition) by Douglas Yeo 43) RE: Name that instrument by "Aaron Roth" 44) Re: Berlioz recording by Scott Ruedger 45) Those no good for nothing bass trombone players by Agapebassbone@aol.com 46) Re: More on Grondahl (new edition) by Beth Lewis 47) Changing the part by Douglas Yeo 48) Re: Alto Trombone - Fun, Fun, Fun by "Tom Izzo" 49) Re: Changing the part by BassBonist@aol.com 50) Re: Arbans Received by Zemry@aol.com 51) RE: WolfPak Update by "Daniel Cloutier" 52) There is no defense for bass trombone players :) by Craig Parmerlee 53) Re: A great old record by "Dick Sleeman" From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:25:58 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Grondahl Trombone Concerto Question Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 10:21 PM -0700 10/25/00, Bodie Pfost wrote, regarding the Grondahl "Concerto": >As I am preparing this piece a question came up. In the "original" 1974 >edition of the trombone part there is a mordent before the e natural in >measure 49. In my "revised" 1974 edition the mordent is not there. My >question is this, did the composer intend for this mordent to be played >here? Do you play the mordent? The revised edition is full of errors and editorial additions. For an excellent account of all the misprints, things left out and editorial revisions (by an unnamed editor), see the ITA Journal April 1982, Vol. X, No. 2. There is an article called "An Interview with Thorkild Graae Jorgensen" by Per Gade. Jorgensen played the Grondahl many times with the composer conducting, and Gade (a Danish trombonist now living and teaching in Japan) provides a huge list of the scandalous 1974 edition's mistakes. You can then make the corrections in your edition. If you don't have the journal, visit the ITA home page at: http://www.ita-web.org and order a back issue. It is essential reading for anyone considering playing the piece. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:28:04 -0400 From: "Richardson, Tim" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Alto Trombone - Fun, Fun, Fun Message-ID: <21E592FA8BA7D311B5B100062B001FE28C9650@LEE2> Hey, I've been here too, and you're missing something. Alto has really tricky positions, and under stress you tend to fall back on old familiar ones. You're going to be out of tune all night, unless you mark them. You need to mark your bell for each position so you can check with your thumb. I use a small drop of hot glue gun glue. It will snap off after the performance (well usually anyway) but be secure while you are playing. So you write the positions over the notes, and mark them on the bell with something you can feel - problem solved. But speaking of altos, anybody got a lyre that will fit, for marching band season? Glad to be back on the list, computer glitches have had me off about a month. My playing is all screwed up too but I think that's just a coincidence. Out of desperation I'm playing just Remington every day, the shortened version (sample rotation) before work and the whole book each evening. Takes about 90 minutes. If that doesn't work - sigh - guess I'll have to finally take a lesson. yours, Tim Richardson > -----Original Message----- > From: Guion, David [SMTP:8guion@jmls.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 9:46 AM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: RE: Alto Trombone - Fun, Fun, Fun > > Wayne Dyess wrote: > > > We're doing Beethoven's 9th this week, and I'm playing alto (on loan > > from a friend). Now, I think I know the answer to this question > > before the "get-go" -- but I'll ask anywho. > > > > What's the best way to deal with this babe? I was all set to play > > the part on my trusty Conn 6H, but the other guys in the section > > thought it would be better if we played smaller equipment. I read > > alto clef pretty well, but not when putting all the overtone series > > into different positions. Now I find myself having to think way too > > much. > > > > But it's FUN!!! > > > > So -- how did YOU learn to deal with READING while playing the alto > > trombone? If the answer is what I think it is, then 2 days of > > practice ain't gonna be NEARLY enough. > > > If a 6H is too big, do you have access to a 4H? > > If you must play it on alto with such short notice, you'll have to take > pointers from students. Let's see: > > --write the position for alto trombone above every note. In black ink. > > --get some manuscript paper and rewrite the entire part in a different > clef. > > --play along with the record and try to fake by ear. > > Students on the list!!! Help Prof. Dyess out here. There must be things > you've observed of the same sort. Of course, none of you has actually done > any of them yourselves. ;-) > > ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ > David Guion, Cataloger > John Marshall Law School > 315 S. Plymouth Ct. > Chicago, IL 60604 > Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 > > Should part-time band directors be called semi-conductors? > > ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ > From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:47:38 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Berlioz recording Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Berlioz "Grand symphonie funèbre et triomphale" has, as its second movement, a well known trombone solo (published in Henry Smith's "Solos for the Trombone Player" as "Recitative and Prayer," in a lower key). Recently I've purchased a very fine recording of the work performed by The Wallace Collection conducted by John Wallace. The trombone soloist is Dudley Bright. What makes this recording particularly interesting is the use of period instruments - small bore brasses, serpent, ophicleides, etc. The album also has other music of and inspired by the French Revolution. The contrast between this recording and others I have (including the fine performance by Denis Wick with the London Symphony conducted by Colin Davis on Philips) cannot be overstated - this recording is a cleaning for the ears. Happy listening! -Doug Yeo Details: Berlioz Grande symphonie funèbre et triomphale (Works from the French Revolution) The Wallace Collection John Wallace Nimbus NI 5175 Trombone players are: Susan Addison David Purser James G. Casey Kenny Hamilton David Stewart Dudley Bright (solo in the Grande symphonie) Also: Ronald Bryans, contrabass trombone (the "Grand Trombone Basse" in the Grande symphonie) Stephen Wick, serpent Stephen Wick and Stephen Saunders, ophicleide ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:51:36 -0400 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: "sbrager@earthlink.net" Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Britt Woodman Message-ID: <200010261255.IAA29368@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:52 PM 10/25/00 -0700, you wrote: >S. > >I'm looking for any information which will provide some insight to Britt >Woodman both the man and the musician. For instance, Charles Mingus raved >about Britt extending the range of the trombone for jazz. Also Toshiko >Akioshi wrote a piece, "American Ballad" especially for Britt. > >But more importantly, what thoughts come to your mind as YOU think about >Britt Woodman? What do you want others to know about him? ========================== Britt was one of those men I think of as "an honest musician"...people who had great talent, worked hard to learn their craft and art, succeeded at what they did perhaps beyond many players who became more famous, yet were not so ego driven as to continually force themselves to the forefront. They exist in every scene. I only know the ones on the New York jazz/freelance scene, and they include such players as Frank Wess, Jimmy Knepper, Joe Wilder, Victor Paz, Jerry Dodgion, Eddie Bert, Roland Hanna...the list could go on forever... He was the soul of kindness, a good, gentle man, and proved that you don't have to be a raving, insecure egomaniac to have a wonderful career in music. He certainly did extend the range of the trombone, along w/a number of others who were his contemporaries...Urbie Green being foremost among them...and to my ears stood as the direct and logical extension of a style of trombone playing that includes Trummy Young, Tommy Dorsey and Lawrence Brown, Small horns, small m/pces (he played a brass King 2B during the 20 years I knew him, and m'pces somewhere around an 11C), ease of playing above the 6th partial, a fairly legato approach w/out too much use of the tongue, and a glorious, unforced sound. However, and I can't repeat this enough, what he left behind that is infinitely more important than what he played is the way he carried himself as a player. He was an honest musician, and that to me is the highest accolade. The great trombonist Trummy Young, who was very much like Britt in the way he acted, wrote a great jazz hit in the late '30s for the Jimmy Lunceford Band..."It Ain't Whatcha Do It's the Way Atcha Do It". Just about sums it up... Later... S. > >Thanks for any stories you can tell, and also for your articles written for >the Online Trombone Journal. I have all of them printed and compiled in a >notebook. As a beginning trombonist (2 1/2 years), they've helped me to >make progress with my trombone studies. > >Stan >Stan Brager >Trombonist-in-Training >-----Original Message----- >From: sabutin@mindspring.com [SMTP:sabutin@mindspring.com] >Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 5:04 AM >To: sbrager@earthlink.net >Subject: Re: Britt Woodman > >At 10:23 AM 10/25/00 -0700, you wrote: >>Former Duke Ellington trombonist Britt Woodman died October 13, 2000. >> >>I've been asked by the Duke Ellington Society of Los Angeles (where >Woodman >>was born 80 years ago in the community of Watts) to present the story of >>Britt Woodman. While I have information about his early years in L.A. and >>the Ellington years (1951-1961), I don't have much information about his >>life after Ellington. I know that he moved to New York where he became one >>of the many studio musicians and that Art Baron (another Ellington >>trombonist) celebrated Britt at a Year 2000 horn convention in New York >>earlier this year. >> >>If anyone has any information about Britt Woodman, please respond either >>on-line or off-line to sbrager@earthlink.net. > >==================== > > What kind of information do you want? > > S. > >-============== >>I'll make my completed text available to the group. >> >>Thanks; >> >>Stan >>Stan Brager >>Trombonist-in-Training >> > From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:00:11 -0500 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Double posts.. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain No, I am getting double posts at home from the Trombone-L. You are right, it is annoying. KSD > -----Original Message----- > From: Maria R. Tekle-Wolde [SMTP:mariat@qwest.net] > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 10:41 PM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Double posts.. > > I was wondering if I am the only person getting > double posts.. it's getting rather annoying and I > am hoping Eric got my email on it.. > > Just curious if I was the only one! > > Maria From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:19:09 -0500 From: Nancy Vogt To: Subject: Doug Wright's Mahler 1 Mute Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3055393149_90377_MIME_Part" Doug Wright's Mahler 1 Mute In response to a query about the mute Doug Wright used for Mahler 1 with the Minnesota Orchestra recently:

I had a lesson with Doug yesterday and asked about the mute. It's a Marcus Bonna fiberglass mute, available online at Osmun.com. He said it's even in all the registers and doesn't mess with intonation. It has a warmer sound than a metal straight mute, which is what he wanted for the Mahler.

Nancy Vogt From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:18:08 EDT From: ROSEBONE@aol.com To: DyessJW@hal.lamar.edu, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Alto Trombone Quick-tip Help Message-ID: <6d.b0e88eb.27298910@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/26/00 2:34:41 AM, DyessJW@hal.lamar.edu writes: << And the reason for the transformation was all the fine advice I received from my friends at trombone-L. Thanks again, one and all. I do have a question for you, Bill: what is a "peg tone". I'm a little dense. I also don't understand the right hand reference. Could you please explain that in detail? I never have been accused of being real smart (duh). >> Sorry, Wayne - didn't mean to be obtuse - "Peg tone"?? I was refering to intervals from a reference pitch, like on pg. 126 of the Arban's book (the *old* edition from Fischer!); I have seen them called intervals from a peg tone in several methods.... In the reference to the right hand - when I'm playing tenor or bass the sound of the pitch is very much related to where I happen to be on the slide, the patterns the right arm is making. Kinesthetic memory, I guess, much like using the Kodaly hand signs w/ elementary students to help solidify the pitch for singers, or using piano hand positions to help theory students here chord qualities... Because of that relationship, I had to work to *hear* "d" when my right arm was saying "a". Bill Rose From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:19:43 -0400 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: Douglas Kilen Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: SV: Silver bells...silver bells...plus laquer Message-ID: <200010261323.JAA08876@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:07 AM 10/25/00 -0500, you wrote: > > >> Personally, every horn I've ever owned that blew and sounded the way I >> want has been unlacquered...some bare brass (red brass, in my case), some >> plated.silver and/or gold. >> >> Could be coincidence, but I don't think so. >> >> Lacquer tends to dull the sound some, to my ears. >> >> (If you have a sound that could use some backing off, this might be a >> good thing.) >> >> As always...find what works for you through experimentation, then do it. >> ( And then be ready for it to change...) >> >> S. > > >I've got a Yamaha 682G that I've been thinking of stripping the bell >laquer off of. What's the best way to go about this? What other issues >arise in the area of cleaning when it comes to bare brass? Any input >you could provide would be greatly appreciated. You can also reply to >the list if you think it would be up for general discussion. Thanks!!!! > >Doug Kilen > ======================= There are a number of home recipes for taking the lacquer off horns, but I trust none of them. Personally I would take the horn to a good repairman and have it done. The only other issue that arises is that bare brass tarnishes, and can get mighty ugly looking depending on the alloy and climate. Tarnished brass also rubs of on clothes...white collars particularly. Put something light around the gooseneck to protect your collar. There is a school of thought that says that when you polish your horn, the sound changes in a negative manner. I've never noticed an ounce of difference, myself. There is another school of thought that says that polishing your horn strips off metal, and that eventually you will harm the sound of the horn by lightening it. This makes marginally more sense to me, so I only polish my horns when I'm going to appear in a situation that I think requires a shiny horn...on film or TV, fronting a band, in a particularly formal setting where I am a featured soloist...and I try to use the best brass polishes (not Brasso) and soft cotton (old all cotton t-shirts are fine). There are also a number of different lacquers and lacquering processes that have adherents who claim they don't alter the sound of the horn. I dunno...all lacquer appears to me to be the equivalent of playing piano w/gloves on, or maybe wrapping a piano in something like Saran Wrap. Makes no difference HOW fine the interface...there's going to be a difference. Later... S. From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:25:25 -0500 From: Listmonitor Trombone-L To: Trombone-L Subject: REGARDING DOUBLE MESSAGES Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" There is usually only one cause for double messages, and that is double subscription. The two individuals who posted to the list stating that they were receiving duplicate messages from the trombone-l both had two subscriptions to the same e-mail address. How is this possible? The listproc software does not check addresses to see if there is a possible relationship. For example, some e-mail services use "username@mail.domainname.com" for outgoing e-mail, but the e-mail address of the user is "username@domainname.com". If the individual subscribes to the trombone-l using "username@mail.domainname.com" and then discovers that he or she cannot post to the list, the logical solution is to re-subscribe with the "username@domainname.com" address. However, there are now TWO e-mail addresses pointing towards the same e-mail box: "username@mail.domainname.com" and "username@domainname.com" Rather than post to the list regarding the problem, the simplest solution would be to e-mail the listmonitor at tsks@cjnetworks.com with the information. Both Mr. Dowdy and Ms. Telke-Wold should be receiving one copy of the trombone-l at this point. If you have any subscription problems, please e-mail and the situation usually is easily resolved. Now, if there was just an easy way to build a seven-octave range LM -- --------------------------------------- trombone-l digest archives and useful trombone-l information are available at http://www.cjnetworks.com/~tsks From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:42:16 -0400 From: Walter Barrett To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bass trombone in jazz Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/25/00 6:21 PM, AlRobnett@aol.com at AlRobnett@aol.com sent forth into the cosmos: > I can think of many jazz standards in which bass T-bone punctos are very > effective, but when it comes to solos, the thrillers are generally in the > high range. Can anyone suggest any good listening in which a jazz soloist > emphasizes the low range? > > Allen ( 8< o) > Check out the CDs from the NY Trombone Conspiracy (4 trombones & rhythm), all four trombonists acquit themselves very well, including the bass trombonist. (Sorry, I don't remember his name) Walter Barrett Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 06:48:58 -0700 From: "Gary D. Maxwell" To: jeanvaljean@ntsource.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bass trombone players who won't play the written music Message-ID: <39F8364A.1F245E8F@bcsd.k12.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was it Craig that started this conversation? I believe it was. Anyway, he asked if there was wisdom that he could leave lying around for the proper eyes to see. My suggestion is: If you are the "leader" of the band, why not be a leader. Take all your "section leaders" (privately or en masse) out for a drink (you choose what). Explain what you want the band to sound like. Give them the authority and responsibility to work towards this goal. I don't know if you want to leave this lying around but there's my last .02, now I have to go earn some more. All the best, Gary Maxwell Bass Trombone Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:06:41 -0400 From: Walter Barrett To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Du-wah with hand in 10 1/2" Bell Message-ID: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 10/26/00 3:42 AM, a.koolen at a.koolen@hccnet.nl sent forth into the cosmos: > Hello, > > With our concert band we have a piece (Tulsa from Don Gillis) wich has several > measures that require that we play the notes with a Du-Wah sound. Is says hand > in bell. Is it "possible" when you have a 10 1/2" bell, like I have? > My opinion is that it is possible, but not very effective when the other > player just have a 8 1/2" bell. Any solution? I have tried a marching booklet, > but I am not shure if it is right. > > > Greetings. > > Arthur > > Arthur- Even with an 8 1/2" bell, unless you have a big hand, it's tough to get the right sound with just your hand. (Of course, back in the old days, the bells were smaller) I'd say to listen to a trumpet player do it with their little teeny 4 1/2" bell, and if you can't match that sound, use a plunger. Walter Barrett Yamaha Artist/Clinician Tenor, Alto, Bass Trombones Euphonium Bass Trumpet Tuba From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:21:41 -0500 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: SV: Silver bells...silver bells...plus lacquer Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" If you are lacking a good repairman (as is my case), BIX Industrial Stripper will remove the finish on about anything. I brush it on the bell and wait about five minutes. I then reapply another coat. I then "polish" the stripper/finish off using fine ScotchBrite pads soaked in denatured alcohol or mineral spirits. Next, I polish the bell again using the extra fine ScotchBrite pads. This gives the bell a satin look that I really like. If you like things a bit more shiny, Semichrome polish or Wenol works very well, and I have yet to see any damage on anything that I have used these products on. I apply the Wenol in small amounts using a clean shop rag. After rubbing the brass and letting it sit for a couple of minutes, I buff it with soft cloth (Sam's T-shirt idea works very well). To avoid the problems that Sam mentions, I mask off the parts of the bell section that I want bare, and then I lacquer the gooseneck and the front brace. I have stripped three horns using this method and was satisfied with the results on all three. KSD > -----Original Message----- > From: sabutin@mindspring.com [SMTP:sabutin@mindspring.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 8:20 AM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Re: SV: Silver bells...silver bells...plus laquer > > At 11:07 AM 10/25/00 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > >> Personally, every horn I've ever owned that blew and sounded the way > I > >> want has been unlacquered...some bare brass (red brass, in my case), > some > >> plated.silver and/or gold. > >> > >> Could be coincidence, but I don't think so. > >> > >> Lacquer tends to dull the sound some, to my ears. > >> > >> (If you have a sound that could use some backing off, this might be a > >> good thing.) > >> > >> As always...find what works for you through experimentation, then do > it. > >> ( And then be ready for it to change...) > >> > >> S. > > > > > >I've got a Yamaha 682G that I've been thinking of stripping the bell > >laquer off of. What's the best way to go about this? What other issues > >arise in the area of cleaning when it comes to bare brass? Any input > >you could provide would be greatly appreciated. You can also reply to > >the list if you think it would be up for general discussion. Thanks!!!! > > > >Doug Kilen > > > ======================= > > There are a number of home recipes for taking the lacquer off horns, > but > I trust none of them. Personally I would take the horn to a good repairman > and have it done. > > The only other issue that arises is that bare brass tarnishes, and can > get mighty ugly looking depending on the alloy and climate. Tarnished > brass > also rubs of on clothes...white collars particularly. Put something light > around the gooseneck to protect your collar. > > There is a school of thought that says that when you polish your horn, > the sound changes in a negative manner. I've never noticed an ounce of > difference, myself. > > There is another school of thought that says that polishing your horn > strips off metal, and that eventually you will harm the sound of the horn > by lightening it. This makes marginally more sense to me, so I only polish > my horns when I'm going to appear in a situation that I think requires a > shiny horn...on film or TV, fronting a band, in a particularly formal > setting where I am a featured soloist...and I try to use the best brass > polishes (not Brasso) and soft cotton (old all cotton t-shirts are fine). > > There are also a number of different lacquers and lacquering processes > that have adherents who claim they don't alter the sound of the horn. > > I dunno...all lacquer appears to me to be the equivalent of playing > piano w/gloves on, or maybe wrapping a piano in something like Saran Wrap. > Makes no difference HOW fine the interface...there's going to be a > difference. > > Later... > > S. > > > From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:20:10 -0400 From: Charles To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Jazz bass trombonists-Jeff Nelson NOT Jeff reynolds Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20001026132010.00716a08@totcon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My apologies...I have been naming Jeff Reynolds (certainly not a jazz player) when I meant Jeff Nelson of the New York Trombone Conspiracy My feeling is that most bass trombone players don't play good jazz is the reason they become bass bone players (like me). The good jazz players also double on tenor bone and play good jazz on that too! From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:31:43 -0400 From: "Andrew Elms" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: SV: Silver bells...silver bells...plus lacquer Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zip Strip also makes a fine lacquer removal product, but this one is in a spray can. One can will pretty much do a horn with a can and all you have to do is hose the lacquer off after it bubbles. For me the BIX stuff was pretty messy. And, as Ken mentions, you should polish the horn in one way or another after stripping the lacquer off, that is, if you care about how it looks. I've used Amway metal cleaner for this, it worked pretty well and was easy to use. Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of DOWDY, KENNETH S Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 10:22 AM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: RE: SV: Silver bells...silver bells...plus lacquer If you are lacking a good repairman (as is my case), BIX Industrial Stripper will remove the finish on about anything. I brush it on the bell and wait about five minutes. I then reapply another coat. I then "polish" the stripper/finish off using fine ScotchBrite pads soaked in denatured alcohol or mineral spirits. Next, I polish the bell again using the extra fine ScotchBrite pads. This gives the bell a satin look that I really like. If you like things a bit more shiny, Semichrome polish or Wenol works very well, and I have yet to see any damage on anything that I have used these products on. I apply the Wenol in small amounts using a clean shop rag. After rubbing the brass and letting it sit for a couple of minutes, I buff it with soft cloth (Sam's T-shirt idea works very well). To avoid the problems that Sam mentions, I mask off the parts of the bell section that I want bare, and then I lacquer the gooseneck and the front brace. I have stripped three horns using this method and was satisfied with the results on all three. KSD > -----Original Message----- > From: sabutin@mindspring.com [SMTP:sabutin@mindspring.com] > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 8:20 AM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Re: SV: Silver bells...silver bells...plus laquer > > At 11:07 AM 10/25/00 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > >> Personally, every horn I've ever owned that blew and sounded the way > I > >> want has been unlacquered...some bare brass (red brass, in my case), > some > >> plated.silver and/or gold. > >> > >> Could be coincidence, but I don't think so. > >> > >> Lacquer tends to dull the sound some, to my ears. > >> > >> (If you have a sound that could use some backing off, this might be a > >> good thing.) > >> > >> As always...find what works for you through experimentation, then do > it. > >> ( And then be ready for it to change...) > >> > >> S. > > > > > >I've got a Yamaha 682G that I've been thinking of stripping the bell > >laquer off of. What's the best way to go about this? What other issues > >arise in the area of cleaning when it comes to bare brass? Any input > >you could provide would be greatly appreciated. You can also reply to > >the list if you think it would be up for general discussion. Thanks!!!! > > > >Doug Kilen > > > ======================= > > There are a number of home recipes for taking the lacquer off horns, > but > I trust none of them. Personally I would take the horn to a good repairman > and have it done. > > The only other issue that arises is that bare brass tarnishes, and can > get mighty ugly looking depending on the alloy and climate. Tarnished > brass > also rubs of on clothes...white collars particularly. Put something light > around the gooseneck to protect your collar. > > There is a school of thought that says that when you polish your horn, > the sound changes in a negative manner. I've never noticed an ounce of > difference, myself. > > There is another school of thought that says that polishing your horn > strips off metal, and that eventually you will harm the sound of the horn > by lightening it. This makes marginally more sense to me, so I only polish > my horns when I'm going to appear in a situation that I think requires a > shiny horn...on film or TV, fronting a band, in a particularly formal > setting where I am a featured soloist...and I try to use the best brass > polishes (not Brasso) and soft cotton (old all cotton t-shirts are fine). > > There are also a number of different lacquers and lacquering processes > that have adherents who claim they don't alter the sound of the horn. > > I dunno...all lacquer appears to me to be the equivalent of playing > piano w/gloves on, or maybe wrapping a piano in something like Saran Wrap. > Makes no difference HOW fine the interface...there's going to be a > difference. > > Later... > > S. > > > From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:18:40 -0700 From: "Kathy-Green -TJ" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Bass trombone players who won't play the written music Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu writes: >Re: Bass trombone players who won't play the written music I know the REAL reasons we like to do it! 1. Gosh, darn, we paid extra money for that extra valve and tubing - we want to get our money's worth! 2. To prove that we really can play bass trombone. 3. (In my case) The disbelief on people's faces when I'm at a gig and they go "a WOMAN is playing bass trombone?" Seriously - this is something that seems to start in high school. As a high school band director I've had a lot of trouble trying to get my bass trombonists to play what was written instead of an octave lower. Sometimes I will rearrange and revoice parts, but I have to say that generally the arranger did what they did for a reason. Of course, my trouble is that "at my advancing age" and health - sometimes I have to play things an octave up, which makes me afraid of looking like a real wimp... Kathy Green From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:31:39 -0400 From: "Chuck De Paolo" To: "Trombone List" Subject: Re: The Mighty Trombone Stand Message-ID: <00c801c03f61$d5b6f9d0$0200a8c0@ws2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit `twas written: > [snip] With a little ingenuity you can have a great [trombone] stand for only a few > bucks more than the flimsy equipment that the manufacturers pass off as > trombone stands... Objection, your honor! The UMI is hardly flimsy. Far from it in fact. And it's build better than much of the percussion hardware I've seen, especially the Gibralter stuff, which uses rivets that don't stay tight over the long haul, and a material I like to call "pot metal" for some of the more important casting etc. Yamaha percussion hardware is great, but even if it's military quality, I'd still be a little anxious about some handyman approach to suspending a two to three thousand dollar trombone using add-on parts from Home Depot. Buy the UMI if you want the best. Manufactured by K&M in Germany, it's strong, very well built, has a wide [read: stable] leg span, fat rubber feet, and a bell cone that is not only adjustable, but can be locked down hard to prevent slipping. In Music, ---Chuck General Manager & Webmaster Hickey's Music Center 104 Adams Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607.272.8262 (Phone) 607.272.2203 (Fax) chuck@hickeys.com (E-Mail) http://www.hickeys.com (Website) http://www.weather.com/weather/us/zips/14850.html (Weather) From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:55:34 -0500 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: Re: The Mighty Trombone Stand Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I have to toss my hat in the ring in support of the UMI stand. For years, I used a Hamilton, and it never passed the "wife test." The first time I used the UMI, it passed the wife test with flying colors. What is the wife test, you might ask? Every time I put my Bach 50B3 on the Hamilton, my wife would see it wobble a little and then ask, "Is that thing stable???" I would usually reply, "As stable as it's owner." Her usual reply was "Oh. Then put it in the case." ;-) The UMI stand supports the 50B3 with nary a wobble. Chris >`twas written: > >> [snip] With a little ingenuity you can have a great [trombone] stand for >only a few >> bucks more than the flimsy equipment that the manufacturers pass off as >> trombone stands... > >Objection, your honor! > >The UMI is hardly flimsy. Far from it in fact. And it's build better than >much of the percussion hardware I've seen, especially the Gibralter stuff, >which uses rivets that don't stay tight over the long haul, and a material I >like to call "pot metal" for some of the more important casting etc. Yamaha >percussion hardware is great, but even if it's military quality, I'd still >be a little anxious about some handyman approach to suspending a two to >three thousand dollar trombone using add-on parts from Home Depot. > >Buy the UMI if you want the best. Manufactured by K&M in Germany, it's >strong, very well built, has a wide [read: stable] leg span, fat rubber >feet, and a bell cone that is not only adjustable, but can be locked down >hard to prevent slipping. > >In Music, >---Chuck >General Manager & Webmaster > >Hickey's Music Center >104 Adams Street >Ithaca, NY 14850 > >607.272.8262 (Phone) >607.272.2203 (Fax) >chuck@hickeys.com (E-Mail) >http://www.hickeys.com (Website) >http://www.weather.com/weather/us/zips/14850.html (Weather) -- _________________________________________ Chris Waage chris@trombone.org Associate Webmaster The Online Trombone Journal http://www.trombone.org From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:08:16 -0500 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Al Grey Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I have been listening to Al Grey's "Live at the Floating Jazz Festival", and the CD cover has him holding what looks like a King 3B with a mouthpiece that has a huge rim. Looks like some kind of a Schilke. Does anyone know for sure what equipment Al uses? Anyway, there is some excellent stuff on this CD. Heck, even the trumpets and sax sound good :-) KSD From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:32:22 -0700 From: "Rodney Ellard" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Treating the sick (was bass tbn down an octave, etc) Message-ID: <005b01c03f6a$54026420$38e794d1@rod> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >At 12:06 PM -0300 10/25/00, Craig Parmerlee wrote: > >>There is a sickness among some bass trombone players who seem to >>revel in playing the written parts down an octave. > >Doug wrote: >This is a common sickness which infects brass players of all stripes, >perpetuated by plenty of bad role models. In some cases, as already >mentioned in several posts, it's as simple as "just growing up" >("When I was a child, I acted like a child, but when I became a man, >I gave up my childish ways..."). But in the end, it often seems to >come down to players who seem to have an inflated view of their own >self-importance and there is no cure for that except for the >collective disapproval of those who value the quality of a >performance over the stroking of an individual's own misplaced >egotism. As the case with this kind of thing in all walks of life, >such an attitude usually is borne out of insecurity on the part of >the individual involved - a "need" to be up front, a desire to be >needed, to be loved, to be first, etc. > >The interesting thing about this sickness is that the person infected >actually believes that what they are doing is either impressive or >helpful, when in reality, what they do is destructive or ruinous to >the intended effect. A bass trombone has FAR more power in a written >octave (usually not in the pedal range) than down low. A bass >trombone in the pedal range does NOT sound like a tuba. Composers >usually know what they are doing (the periodic clueless arranger >excepted). But such arguments are lost on the sick. > >But how will the sick be made well when many doctors are sick as >well? What will young players do as long as their "heroes" persist in >the promotion of self over that of the group? A well known bass >trombonist with a well known major symphony orchestra took the final >note of Beethoven Sym 5 (C on the bass clef staff) down an octave - >VERY PROMINENTLY AND VERY LOUDLY! - on a recording of the piece on a >major label. A good role model? No, in that case he was a musical >thug. > This is all a little bit stiff, don't you think. "Sickness?" "A musical thug?" Get a little perspective people. Rod From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:37:15 +0100 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bass trombone players who won't play the written music Message-ID: <008d01c03f6b$762d3a60$e48068d5@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Things to be considered in whether or not to drop the bass 'bone part into the sub-octave. 1. Are you the lowest player in the brass section? If the band has a tubist, then there is little point. In most cases you would just be doubling the tuba part. The tuba can produce a much fatter tone. By dropping the bass 'bone line, it would only spoil the blend and leave a huge gap in the voicing. 2. Is the part a harmony part? If your part is not a bass line, by playing it an octave lower, you will be placing the 3rds, 7ths, 9ths etc. of the harmony below the stave. They will only sound muddy in that register. 3. OK, you have spotted a lovely dominant bass note or an interesting bass line that isn't in the pedal range. Are the other 'bonists on the same note/s in the same register? If yes, your note/s will work well in the lower octave. Are the other players written an octave above you? If yes, leave your note where it is. Do the other 'bones have harmony notes, but the bari sax has the same note as you? If yes, dropping your note might work. If it doesn't, don't try it a second time. There will not be many occasions, if any at all, that you will be able to improve on the arranger/composer's work by dropping the bass 'bone line. The most likely occasions are where the writer has played safe, not realising there would be anyone as talented as you to play the bass 'bone part. Also sub-octave (and sopra-octave) work should be used sparingly, unless you revel in irritating everyone around you. Finally, there is the chart that has been written by someone who has just completed his 2nd arranging lesson. All the trombones have been squashed in below the trumpets in the muddiest possible register, Even the string bass is written higher than the trombone harmony. There is only one way to fix the mess. Play the 'bass bone (and possibly 3rd and 2nd) parts an octave higher. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:24 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:37:27 +0100 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bass trombone in jazz Message-ID: <008e01c03f6b$785ec060$e48068d5@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 11:21 PM Subject: Bass trombone in jazz > I can think of many jazz standards in which bass T-bone punctos are very > effective, but when it comes to solos, the thrillers are generally in the > high range. Can anyone suggest any good listening in which a jazz soloist > emphasizes the low range? By solos, I assume you refer to tunes. By far the best register for this is in the staff and just above. This is more or less a baritone (vocal) range. You could transcribe any of Sinatra's songs in his key and they would be perfect for the bass 'bone. George Roberts has done precisely this on his two Music Minus One albums. Check them out: "Big Band Ballads" "Unsung Hero" They are both recorded with full orchestra backings. You might even consider the two original tunes in my catalog for bass 'bone and big band (shameless plug, sorry). You can find them at the URL below. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:44:59 -0700 From: "Dennis Clason" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: The Mighty Trombone Stand Message-ID: <034e01c03f74$764eb600$0d2b7b80@nmsu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris Waage saith: > I have to toss my hat in the ring in support of the UMI stand. For > years, I used a Hamilton, and it never passed the "wife test." The > first time I used the UMI, it passed the wife test with flying colors. > > What is the wife test, you might ask? > > Every time I put my Bach 50B3 on the Hamilton, my wife would see it > wobble a little and then ask, "Is that thing stable???" > > I would usually reply, "As stable as it's owner." > > Her usual reply was "Oh. Then put it in the case." Once upon a time, a long long time ago, my number one son decided that he wanted to learn to play the trombone. His mother believed that he chose the instrument only to irritate her. I loaned said son my Hamilton stand. Not long afterwards, I remarried. My new, improved wife decided that I needed a trombone stand, and bought one for my next birthday. She bought a UMI, not a Hamilton. Why did you buy that UMI stand, I asked -- the Hamilton does the job. "Because the other one looked really flimsy and when they sat *their* bass trombone on it, it wobbled. So I got the sturdy one." UMI's pass the wife test, even (or maybe especially) when she's putting down the greenbacks. Dennis From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:04:11 -0500 From: Wayne Dyess To: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Cc: Trombone-L Subject: RE: Alto Trombone - Fun, Fun, Fun Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Hey, I've been here too, and you're missing something. Alto has really >tricky positions, and under stress you tend to fall back on old familiar >ones. You're going to be out of tune all night, unless you mark them. Nawww. I have used it at two rehearsals. The first night I was off a little. But after reading the splendid suggestions from several list members, it hasn't been a problem the last two days. I'm not one for marking the positions on the instrument itself. Just wouldn't work for me. I have enough to think about with the music, the conductor, and the transpositions. In lessons yesterday, and in a bit of practice time during my noon hour -- I was able to get fairly secure in my thinking process and the juxtaposition of the overtone series into the "new" keys. So tuning is really not the problem. The Rudolf Meinl is a good instrument in that the positions relate very well to the bell and where they are on my tenor. >You need to mark your bell for each position so you can check with your >thumb. I use a small drop of hot glue gun glue. It will snap off after the >performance (well usually anyway) but be secure while you are playing. So >you write the positions over the notes, and mark them on the bell with >something you can feel - problem solved. This sounds to me like one of those "don't try this at home" remedies. Works for you, but would be disastrous for me. Besides, it isn't my instrument. The last thing I want to do is to take a glue gun to it. Ouch!!! >But speaking of altos, anybody got a lyre that will fit, for marching band >season? If anyone has a marching atlo complete with lyre and spats, it would be Tom Izzo. Tom??? >Glad to be back on the list, computer glitches have had me off about a >month. My playing is all screwed up too but I think that's just a >coincidence. Out of desperation I'm playing just Remington every day, the >shortened version (sample rotation) before work and the whole book each >evening. Takes about 90 minutes. If that doesn't work - sigh - guess I'll >have to finally take a lesson. >yours, >Tim Richardson Have you checked lately? Perhaps the glue wore off??? Lesson? Joe Alessi comes highly recommended. Just $2000 a day. (BTW: No offense on either the glue gun nor the Alessi comments. Just funnin'!!!) :-) Wayne Dyess -- ========================= Lamar University P. O. Box 10044 Beaumont, Texas 77710 409-880-8146 FAX: 409-880-8143 dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu http://www.lamar.edu From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:19:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Treating the sick (was bass tbn down an octave, etc) Message-ID: <20001026171933.82689.qmail@web10307.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Amen, Doug...I've also heard a recording of a major symphony orchestra (same one maybe...?) in which the bass trombone player took the E-flat towards the end of the A-flat arpeggios in the 1812 Overture finale down and VERY loud - quite out of context. Can't claim Tchaikovsky didn't know the range - there's a low C earlier in the piece. I can't claim to have never done the same thing (in an outdoor concert...not really an excuse I guess), but I've certainly gotten more thoughtful about such things as I've gained more experience. Gabe --- Douglas Yeo wrote: > > But how will the sick be made well when many doctors > are sick as > well? What will young players do as long as their > "heroes" persist in > the promotion of self over that of the group? A > well known bass > trombonist with a well known major symphony > orchestra took the final > note of Beethoven Sym 5 (C on the bass clef staff) > down an octave - > VERY PROMINENTLY AND VERY LOUDLY! - on a recording > of the piece on a > major label. A good role model? No, in that case > he was a musical > thug. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:23:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Gabriel Langfur To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bass trombone players who won't play the written music Message-ID: <20001026172325.99155.qmail@web10303.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Wish that were really the truth...see Doug's post and my reply (curing the sick) Gabe --- Aaron Roth wrote: Of course, players like that > *generally* don't make it > into ensembles like Tom's bass 'bone quartet or any > really high-level > professional orchestras. > -Aaron Roth > _________________________________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at > http://www.hotmail.com. > > Share information about yourself, create your own > public profile at > http://profiles.msn.com. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE. http://im.yahoo.com/ From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 13:48:24 EDT From: "Aaron Roth" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Bass trombone players who won't play the written music Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I know.... It's shameful to hear Doug's account of a player in a high-level ensemble stooping to that level. In response to Rodney's comment on the same post, I will argue that such terms as "musical thug", though colorful, are fairly accurate in this situation. The bass 'bonist ruining voicings in a tune with his/her insane ideas of how to improve on someone else's music is committing a musical crime, IMHO. -Aaron R. >Wish that were really the truth...see Doug's post and >my reply (curing the sick) > >Gabe > >--- Aaron Roth wrote: >Of course, players like that > > *generally* don't make it > > into ensembles like Tom's bass 'bone quartet or any > > really high-level > > professional orchestras. > > -Aaron Roth _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:27:21 +0100 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Jazz bass trombonists Message-ID: <00bd01c03f7a$7fc12be0$e48068d5@q9y6f8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 2:20 PM Subject: Jazz bass trombonists-Jeff Nelson NOT Jeff reynolds > My feeling is that most bass trombone players don't play good jazz is the > reason they become bass bone players (like me). Hahaha. In my case, I took up bass trombone because there was a chance for me to get into the band of my dreams if I played one. The moment I started playing it, I knew it was for me. It must have been, I've stuck with it for 31 years after trying almost everything else. At that time, no one wrote solos for the bass, apart from the odd Riddle/Roberts type of figure, certainly no impro. For that reason, I have been very happy to sit back and leave the jazz playing to the guys with the smaller instruments. They move faster. My enjoyment has always come from being a section man, and I just love playing the bass parts. If I wanted to improvise now, I'd have to start learning more scales. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:51:12 -0700 From: "Gary D. Maxwell" To: slide.rule@adios.co.uk Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Jazz bass trombonists Message-ID: <39F87D20.52DA678@bcsd.k12.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adrian Drover wrote: > My enjoyment has always come from > being a section man, and I just love playing the bass parts. If I wanted to > improvise now, I'd have to start learning more scales. ============================================================ AMEN and HALLELUJAH!!!!!! I loved playing "Ain't Gonna Ask No More" (Toshiko Akiashi)[sp?], but it was written out. Give me an ad lib and I'll have my 8, 12, 16, open, whatever, played and waiting at the bar for the rest of you to catch up, in 2 measures. I'm a panic ad libist. Give me the notes, a music stand to rest them on, and away we go. I did not attend a great school for improvisational prowess. Gary Maxwell From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 14:17:13 -0500 (EST) From: Beth Lewis To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Name that instrument Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This may not be exactly trombone-related, but does anyone know the instrumentation for Silvestre Revueltas' "La Noche De Los Mayas?" There's an instrument playing over the percussion solis from about 1 minute into the 4th movement (it's especially prominent in/after the 2nd and 3rd percussion solis) which sounds suspiciously like a conch shell (that might explain its range of about a major second (!)). And in case it is, would the job and doubling $$ go to one of the trombonists or would they call in a pro? :) Thanks, Beth PS: The recording I have is the one by the LA Phil. From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:27:45 -0700 From: Steve Gamble To: "'ealewis@indiana.edu'" Cc: "Trombone List (E-mail)" Subject: RE: Name that instrument Message-ID: <01C03F48.25A5EC40.orchpers@azstarnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's a conch shell. I think the score suggests substituting a euphonium if no conch is available. One of the percussionist played it the last time we did La Noche de los Mayas. In our orchestra, percussionists don't get doubling unless they play timpani and percussion. Steve Gamble -----Original Message----- From: Beth Lewis [SMTP:ealewis@indiana.edu] Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 12:17 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Name that instrument This may not be exactly trombone-related, but does anyone know the instrumentation for Silvestre Revueltas' "La Noche De Los Mayas?" There's an instrument playing over the percussion solis from about 1 minute into the 4th movement (it's especially prominent in/after the 2nd and 3rd percussion solis) which sounds suspiciously like a conch shell (that might explain its range of about a major second (!)). And in case it is, would the job and doubling $$ go to one of the trombonists or would they call in a pro? :) Thanks, Beth PS: The recording I have is the one by the LA Phil. From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:32:11 +0200 From: H du Plooy To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Double posts.. Message-ID: <041a01c03f86$57b76c20$4652ef9b@hanspc> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I don't... Hans From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:30:04 -0400 From: "Richardson, Tim" To: "'Wayne Dyess'" Cc: Trombone-L Subject: RE: Alto Trombone - Fun, Fun, Fun Message-ID: <21E592FA8BA7D311B5B100062B001FE28C9659@LEE2> You might underestimate Joe. Most people would charge a heck of a lot more if they had to listen to me for a whole day. PS I noticed you didn't volunteer but I think I'll mail you a tape anyway. Ignore my kids' recorder playing please, just fastforward to the excerpts. yours, Tim Richardson -why DO they teach my child German fingering in elementary school! Arggh. Sold her a $3.00 German plastic recorder, too. > Have you checked lately? Perhaps the glue wore off??? > > Lesson? Joe Alessi comes highly recommended. Just $2000 a day. > > > (BTW: No offense on either the glue gun nor the Alessi comments. > Just funnin'!!!) > > :-) > Wayne Dyess > > -- > ========================= > From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:59:02 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: The Mighty Trombone Stand Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001026154551.01edcc98@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:31 AM 10/26/2000 -0400, Chuck De Paolo wrote: >`twas written: > > > [snip] With a little ingenuity you can have a great [trombone] stand for >only a few > > bucks more than the flimsy equipment that the manufacturers pass off as > > trombone stands... > >Objection, your honor! > >The UMI is hardly flimsy. Far from it in fact. And it's build better than >much of the percussion hardware I've seen, especially the Gibralter stuff, >which uses rivets that don't stay tight over the long haul, and a material I >like to call "pot metal" for some of the more important casting etc. Yamaha >percussion hardware is great, but even if it's military quality, I'd still >be a little anxious about some handyman approach to suspending a two to >three thousand dollar trombone using add-on parts from Home Depot. I agree the UMI stand is the best you can do as an off-the-shelf product. I own two of them and they are the only store-bought stands I wouldn't describe as flimsy. But they don't hold a candle to the stand I made with a Gibralter base. It has a longer wingspan, much more mass, and its clamps are far more positive than the UMI's. Plus, unlike the UMI, I can pack it in sections without losing pieces. I'm not anti-UMI. I still use these two stands regularly, but I think I can do better on my own in the future. I would trust my Gibralter stand against the UMI one without any doubts, and there is no comparison with the Yamaha. It is far better than the UMI stand. Do you need such an outstanding stand? Maybe not. Remember, my motivation was originally to get something that would support a massive contrabass. The UMI was completely inadequate. The Yamaha is up to the job. Is it overkill for a "mere mortal" trombone? Perhaps, but when thousands of dollars are sitting there ready to be wasted by a bassoon player with a big posterior, I don't think an extra margin of safety is necessarily a bad thing. I realize that do-it-yourself is not for everybody. I have a fairly well equipped workshop. However, these are not difficult projects for somebody who is even a little bit handy and has some basic understanding of physics. Just my opinion, Craig From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:11:38 -0400 From: "Chuck De Paolo" To: "Trombone List" Subject: WolfPak Update Message-ID: <069601c03f91$54549110$0200a8c0@ws2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Folks, There has often been discussion on this list pertaining to WolfPak cases. Today I learned that WolfPak is now being distributed by Selmer. This could be good news if Selmer is able to meet the considerable demand. Selmer has also pared down the product line to just two trombone models. In addition, there are a number of trumpet models, one each for alto & tenor sax, plus sundry accessory cases. The trombone models, both for tenor, are as follows: Model WKTBN - this model has both a standard shoulder strap and "backpack" style straps, plus "D" rings for accessory bag carriage. Model WKTBNL - same as above but with the famous WolfPak pop-out legs for top-loading the horn in a standing position. WolfPak used to offer eight different models, four of which were models without the "D" rings. Now both cases come with the rings. Of the remaining 4 that used to be available, the difference had only to do with the particular combination of backpack straps and legs. By reducing the product line to just 2 SKUs, Selmer has made a cost efficiency. The non-legged model with "D" rings and backpack straps used to have a suggested retail price of $332, now it's $219. The legged version had a MSRP of $365, and is now $264. Now to answer a few inevitable questions: 1. There is no model for bass trombone. There are no plans for a bass trombone case as far as I know -- no mention is made in the literature. Ditto for alto, contrabass, cimbasso, slide-Wagnertuben, piccolo, descant, contra-piccolo, Artikulated-contra-Altposaune mit Thayerventil, etc etc and so forth ad nauseum. 2. We will be stocking these, but they're not here yet. If Selmer has them in stock, we'll have them in a few weeks or less. Otherwise it's anyone's guess as to the ETA. 3. I don't know whether WolfPak is owned by Selmer, or merely being distributed by them. According to the literature, they are now based in Elkhart, but since they've retained the "Inc." in their name, it's possible they're still independent somehow. For all I know they're part of Time-Warner-AOL-Yap.com 4. I have no idea of how the quality of materials or workmanship compares to the old Connecticut made models. I also do not know where these new models are made. Could be the same place for all I know. Perhaps someone who owns one of the new ones and has used the old ones can enlighten us. FWIW... In Music, ---Chuck General Manager & Webmaster Hickey's Music Center 104 Adams Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607.272.8262 (Phone) 607.272.2203 (Fax) chuck@hickeys.com (E-Mail) http://www.hickeys.com (Website) http://www.weather.com/weather/us/zips/14850.html (Weather) From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:11:43 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Treating the sick (was bass tbn down an octave, etc) Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001026160736.01ef37e8@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I really appreciate all of the constructive ideas that have been offered here. I've learned one thing. I have been a musical thug more often than I thought. So my first job is to concentrate on my own playing. I now have a better musical framework in which to look for that rare place where dropping down adds a magical effect to the performance. As in so many other things, less is more. Regarding the situation with my colleague, the root of the problem is the section leader who has been on leave. It turns out that I will be seeing him tonight. I'll make sure to have a friendly private word with him. I believe he will find a way to sort this out. Thanks again. Craig From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:41:39 -0500 From: "Dean McCarty" To: "Chuck De Paolo" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: The Mighty Trombone Stand Message-ID: <002b01c03f95$875bef00$7fc12bcf@compaqcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have to throw in my $.02 worth also... I really like the K&M stands. They do make the one that UMI stamps their name to... but the actual K&M stand seems to be even more stable than the UMI. Especially the bass trombone stand. The K&M stands are pricy, but as Chuck has said... why be cheap on the very thing that is holding up a 1.5 to 3 thousand dollar instrument... it doesn't make sense. There is not a better stand out there than the K&M stands (unless you count the UMI, which is actually K&M). Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck De Paolo To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 10:31 AM Subject: Re: The Mighty Trombone Stand > `twas written: > > > [snip] With a little ingenuity you can have a great [trombone] stand for > only a few > > bucks more than the flimsy equipment that the manufacturers pass off as > > trombone stands... > > Objection, your honor! > > The UMI is hardly flimsy. Far from it in fact. And it's build better than > much of the percussion hardware I've seen, especially the Gibralter stuff, > which uses rivets that don't stay tight over the long haul, and a material I > like to call "pot metal" for some of the more important casting etc. Yamaha > percussion hardware is great, but even if it's military quality, I'd still > be a little anxious about some handyman approach to suspending a two to > three thousand dollar trombone using add-on parts from Home Depot. > > Buy the UMI if you want the best. Manufactured by K&M in Germany, it's > strong, very well built, has a wide [read: stable] leg span, fat rubber > feet, and a bell cone that is not only adjustable, but can be locked down > hard to prevent slipping. > > In Music, > ---Chuck > General Manager & Webmaster > > Hickey's Music Center > 104 Adams Street > Ithaca, NY 14850 > > 607.272.8262 (Phone) > 607.272.2203 (Fax) > chuck@hickeys.com (E-Mail) > http://www.hickeys.com (Website) > http://www.weather.com/weather/us/zips/14850.html (Weather) > > From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:49:08 -0500 From: "Dean McCarty" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Alto Trombone - Fun, Fun, Fun Message-ID: <004301c03f96$92eca340$7fc12bcf@compaqcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just need to tell all of you... Wayne is doing a great job on alto. We have done some extra practice as a section to help tuning problems, but he has it down. We as a section have really "sized down" for the Beethoven. If you don't you are not doing the piece justice. Wayne is using our 2nd player's Meinel alto, Donnie Todd is on 2nd with a Conn 7H, and I am playing a Bach 42. It sure does make it easier and does sound better. Not to start this thread up again, but if you are in the thinking that you should only use your large tank sized horn for everything then you are really closed minded. You should use the right horn for the job... that doesn't always mean a .547 tenor or .562 bass... sometimes smaller is better... and I'm from Texas! Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area ----- Original Message ----- From: Wayne Dyess To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 12:04 PM Subject: RE: Alto Trombone - Fun, Fun, Fun > >Hey, I've been here too, and you're missing something. Alto has really > >tricky positions, and under stress you tend to fall back on old familiar > >ones. You're going to be out of tune all night, unless you mark them. > > > Nawww. I have used it at two rehearsals. The first night I was off > a little. But after reading the splendid suggestions from several > list members, it hasn't been a problem the last two days. I'm not > one for marking the positions on the instrument itself. Just > wouldn't work for me. I have enough to think about with the music, > the conductor, and the transpositions. > > In lessons yesterday, and in a bit of practice time during my noon > hour -- I was able to get fairly secure in my thinking process and > the juxtaposition of the overtone series into the "new" keys. So > tuning is really not the problem. The Rudolf Meinl is a good > instrument in that the positions relate very well to the bell and > where they are on my tenor. > > > >You need to mark your bell for each position so you can check with your > >thumb. I use a small drop of hot glue gun glue. It will snap off after the > >performance (well usually anyway) but be secure while you are playing. So > >you write the positions over the notes, and mark them on the bell with > >something you can feel - problem solved. > > > This sounds to me like one of those "don't try this at home" > remedies. Works for you, but would be disastrous for me. Besides, > it isn't my instrument. The last thing I want to do is to take a > glue gun to it. Ouch!!! > > > >But speaking of altos, anybody got a lyre that will fit, for marching band > >season? > > > If anyone has a marching atlo complete with lyre and spats, it would > be Tom Izzo. Tom??? > > > >Glad to be back on the list, computer glitches have had me off about a > >month. My playing is all screwed up too but I think that's just a > >coincidence. Out of desperation I'm playing just Remington every day, the > >shortened version (sample rotation) before work and the whole book each > >evening. Takes about 90 minutes. If that doesn't work - sigh - guess I'll > >have to finally take a lesson. > >yours, > >Tim Richardson > > > > Have you checked lately? Perhaps the glue wore off??? > > Lesson? Joe Alessi comes highly recommended. Just $2000 a day. > > > (BTW: No offense on either the glue gun nor the Alessi comments. > Just funnin'!!!) > > :-) > Wayne Dyess > > -- > ========================= > Lamar University > P. O. Box 10044 > Beaumont, Texas 77710 > 409-880-8146 > FAX: 409-880-8143 > dyessjw@hal.lamar.edu > http://www.lamar.edu > From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 16:57:41 -0500 From: "Dean McCarty" To: "Trombones and related issues forum" Subject: Re: Jazz bass trombonists Message-ID: <004f01c03f97$c48165c0$7fc12bcf@compaqcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check out Bill Reichenbach. He has a few recordings out and is excellent. If you can find an old recording of the Toshiko Akiyoshi Big Band you can hear Phil Teele on "I Ain't Gonna Ask No More." That was originally written for contra bass, but is very playable on bass. Just a side note, Reichenbach was the lead player on the Akiyoshi recordings... but is a great bass trombonist himself. I have an old Bobby Shew Sextet recording with Reichenbach on bass trombone and on one track there is a three octave soli going on between Shew, Reichenbach and Gordon Brisker on tenor sax... what a gas! Of course there is always George Roberts who even when not soloing is the most musical player in the ensemble. Also check out David Taylor with the Bob Mintzer Big Band... even though he isn't featured as a soloist he has several 1 - 4 measure short features that are incredible. Dean McCarty freelance trombonist, Houston area From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:24:56 -0700 From: lewismm@songs.sce.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Arbans Received Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I received my new Arbans for Trombone and Euphonium yesterday. Very nicely printed and bound, as advertised. I looked it over for some time last night, and must say I don't think I'll ever practice enough to cover even half the material contained. Most of the almost 400 pages have endless staves of excercises, with notes from Joe Alessi which seem to advise "...play these exercises until they flow effortlessly, then play them some more..." I'll likely never need another method book. Feel like my technique improved just unwrapping the package. Thank you to those who referred us. Mark Lewis Oceanside, CA. From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:37:47 -0400 From: "Andrew Elms" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Bass trombone players who won't play the written music Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have decided to present a perfect situation for dropping things down an octave. Go to www.bbbc.net Listen in the RealAudio files area to 'Song of the Volga Boatmen.' On this recording, the Bass trombone part (the tutti melody at the beginning) is played as written. Boring. On other concerts, and on the CD from Britain, the Bass part is played down an octave. Wonderful. Gives the perfect sound for the piece. Nice and dirty. And for those of you that have these CDs, I apologize for certain British persons that have difficulty swinging from ropes. (The tenor horn isn't really a swinging instrument anyway) Well, now that I have beaten the horse a little more... Andy -----Original Message----- From: owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu [mailto:owner-trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu]On Behalf Of Adrian Drover Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 12:37 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Re: Bass trombone players who won't play the written music Things to be considered in whether or not to drop the bass 'bone part into the sub-octave. 1. Are you the lowest player in the brass section? If the band has a tubist, then there is little point. In most cases you would just be doubling the tuba part. The tuba can produce a much fatter tone. By dropping the bass 'bone line, it would only spoil the blend and leave a huge gap in the voicing. 2. Is the part a harmony part? If your part is not a bass line, by playing it an octave lower, you will be placing the 3rds, 7ths, 9ths etc. of the harmony below the stave. They will only sound muddy in that register. 3. OK, you have spotted a lovely dominant bass note or an interesting bass line that isn't in the pedal range. Are the other 'bonists on the same note/s in the same register? If yes, your note/s will work well in the lower octave. Are the other players written an octave above you? If yes, leave your note where it is. Do the other 'bones have harmony notes, but the bari sax has the same note as you? If yes, dropping your note might work. If it doesn't, don't try it a second time. There will not be many occasions, if any at all, that you will be able to improve on the arranger/composer's work by dropping the bass 'bone line. The most likely occasions are where the writer has played safe, not realising there would be anyone as talented as you to play the bass 'bone part. Also sub-octave (and sopra-octave) work should be used sparingly, unless you revel in irritating everyone around you. Finally, there is the chart that has been written by someone who has just completed his 2nd arranging lesson. All the trombones have been squashed in below the trumpets in the muddiest possible register, Even the string bass is written higher than the trombone harmony. There is only one way to fix the mess. Play the 'bass bone (and possibly 3rd and 2nd) parts an octave higher. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk www.adios.co.uk From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:43:33 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: More on Grondahl (new edition) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" In a break between teaching students today, I went to a local music store to see what was new. In their trombone solo bin, I came across the Grondahl Concerto, and saw that there is now a new edition published in 1992 (although the first page still says it is copyright 1974). In the back of the piano part, there is a paragraph by Per Gade who has cleaned up the 1974 edition from the many alterations made by Palmer Traulsen who was solo trombone in the Royal Orchestra in Denmark (lived 1913-1975). The 8va markings and many other changes in the 1974 edition were apparently made by him. Gade has cleaned up the edition of Traulsen's markings although has left in Traulsen's indications of 8va since they hav become so popular, but they are now clearly indicated as not being original and are written as "Optional 8va" as well. I was surprised to see this new addition, but certainly welcome it. Players buying the piece might want to be sure to turn to the last page and see if it is the edition which contains the note by Gade (dated 1992) to be sure they have the most accurate edition since both this new edition and the 1974 edition look identical from the cover and both have the same 1974 copyright date. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:55:18 EDT From: "Aaron Roth" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Name that instrument Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Steve wrote: >It's a conch shell. I think the score suggests substituting a euphonium if >no conch is available. One of the percussionist played it the last time we >did La Noche de los Mayas. In our orchestra, percussionists don't get >doubling unless they play timpani and percussion. > >Steve Gamble Beth wrote: >This may not be exactly trombone-related, but does anyone know the >instrumentation for Silvestre Revueltas' "La Noche De Los Mayas?" Hey, I heard a special on NPR on this piece a few months back. Beth, your first comment is possibly not true. The incredible irony is, or so they said on the radio, the conch shell solo is written into the first trombone part. The performer with the Mexico City Symphony (I believe) spoke about his time learning to keep consistent pitch while playing the note (an E?) 41 times. He also talked about the time it took to find that "right" conch that responded well and at just the right pitch. I love La Noche de los Mayas; I believe it is derived from a film score. The name "Night of Enchantment" (in Spanish, of course) comes to mind but I'm not positive why. -Aaron Roth _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:00:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Scott Ruedger To: Douglas Yeo Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Berlioz recording Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, To recommend another fine recording of the "Grand Symphonie," I just purchased a used CD of this coupled with the "Romeo and Juliet." The recording is with Charles Dutoit and the Orqueste Symphonique de Montreal, and the soloist for the Grande Symphonie is Jeffery Budin. London/Decca prints this, which may be out-of-print in the US, but available as an import. A fine recording, but with modern instruments. Scott On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Douglas Yeo wrote: > The Berlioz "Grand symphonie funèbre et triomphale" has, as its > second movement, a well known trombone solo (published in Henry > Smith's "Solos for the Trombone Player" as "Recitative and Prayer," > in a lower key). > > Recently I've purchased a very fine recording of the work performed > by The Wallace Collection conducted by John Wallace. The trombone > soloist is Dudley Bright. What makes this recording particularly > interesting is the use of period instruments - small bore brasses, > serpent, ophicleides, etc. The album also has other music of and > inspired by the French Revolution. The contrast between this > recording and others I have (including the fine performance by Denis > Wick with the London Symphony conducted by Colin Davis on Philips) > cannot be overstated - this recording is a cleaning for the ears. > > Happy listening! > > -Doug Yeo > > Details: > > Berlioz > Grande symphonie funèbre et triomphale (Works from the French Revolution) > The Wallace Collection > John Wallace > Nimbus NI 5175 > > Trombone players are: > Susan Addison > David Purser > James G. Casey > Kenny Hamilton > David Stewart > Dudley Bright (solo in the Grande symphonie) > > Also: > > Ronald Bryans, contrabass trombone (the "Grand Trombone Basse" in the > Grande symphonie) > Stephen Wick, serpent > Stephen Wick and Stephen Saunders, ophicleide > > ********************************************** > * Douglas Yeo * > * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * > * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * > * yeo@yeodoug.com * > * http://www.yeodoug.com * > * <>< * > ********************************************** > > From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:03:25 EDT From: Agapebassbone@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Those no good for nothing bass trombone players Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In defense of bass trombone players everywhere I'd like to say a couple of things. There has been many occasions where I have played pieces of music that were written one way and were played with octave displacements in performances(either live, studio, or live recordings). Usually there were no indications in the parts to do so but sounded so much better with the lower octave. I am not saying that every bass trombone part should be treated this way because there have been many times when it is just down-right wrong to do such a thing. I can think of many tunes that were always played down the octave on a many different albums(usually albums with the composer as part of the group). Of my past band leaders/conductors none were so strict and hard nosed that they wouldn't consider alterations in the music. Usually I would go up to them at some point and say "I was listening to such-n-such album with such-n-such and I noticed that in that section on such-n-such song the bass bone part was taken down an octave." Normally they would say they would be interested in hearing it in rehearsal. Sometimes they liked it other times they didn't. Usually the former. The same goes for lead trumpet lines. Sometimes they sounded fine where they were but were nasty if taken up. Then on the flip-side a tune would be given a little extra pepper if they did take it up...but lead trumpet players antics are a whole new BARREL of worms. Josh R. From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:05:43 -0500 (EST) From: Beth Lewis To: Douglas Yeo Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: More on Grondahl (new edition) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Did he only correct the piano part ("score" as he refers to it)? There are some major differences between the solo and piano part in the 1992 version, and that's the only way I can explain them. Beth Lewis On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Douglas Yeo wrote: > In a break between teaching students today, I went to a local music > store to see what was new. In their trombone solo bin, I came across > the Grondahl Concerto, and saw that there is now a new edition > published in 1992 (although the first page still says it is copyright > 1974). In the back of the piano part, there is a paragraph by Per > Gade who has cleaned up the 1974 edition from the many alterations > made by Palmer Traulsen who was solo trombone in the Royal Orchestra > in Denmark (lived 1913-1975). The 8va markings and many other > changes in the 1974 edition were apparently made by him. Gade has > cleaned up the edition of Traulsen's markings although has left in > Traulsen's indications of 8va since they hav become so popular, but > they are now clearly indicated as not being original and are written > as "Optional 8va" as well. > > I was surprised to see this new addition, but certainly welcome it. > Players buying the piece might want to be sure to turn to the last > page and see if it is the edition which contains the note by Gade > (dated 1992) to be sure they have the most accurate edition since > both this new edition and the 1974 edition look identical from the > cover and both have the same 1974 copyright date. > > -Doug Yeo > ********************************************** > * Douglas Yeo * > * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * > * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * > * yeo@yeodoug.com * > * http://www.yeodoug.com * > * <>< * > ********************************************** > > > From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:19:26 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Changing the part Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The whole issue of whether it's right/appropriate/wise to change a part is very much a situation based on an individual's personal call, knowledge, experience and understanding of the genre. We've been around this on the list before, as well. I talk about this at great length in my FAQ on score study at: http://www.yeodoug.com/scores.html There, I discuss a number of pieces in which I've wondered about the possibility of changing the "ink." But as I say in the article (and keep in mind that I am almost exclusively a classical orchestral player), I never make a change without first speaking with the conductor about it. The conductor is in charge, not me. I've found most conductors to be receptive to players who make comments and have questions about misprints, voice leading, and the impact modern instruments have on older music. While they may not agree with my conclusions, they appreciate the dialogue and it always makes for an interesting conversation. In non-orchestral situations, there certainly may be times when making a change is sensible, but in the end, I would always consult with the conductor/leader before making a unilateral change. We all can be notoriously bad at determining what "sounds good" out front, often confusing what is fun to play with what actually works. When in doubt, ask the boss... -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:25 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:01:23 -0500 From: "Tom Izzo" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Alto Trombone - Fun, Fun, Fun Message-ID: <008d01c03fc2$310e4d00$0275dfd0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >You need to mark your bell for each position so you can check with your > >thumb. I use a small drop of hot glue gun glue. It will snap off after the > >performance (well usually anyway) but be secure while you are playing. So > >you write the positions over the notes, and mark them on the bell with > >something you can feel - problem solved. > > What's with all this "Mark your bell" stuff? And finding an Alto with trhe "bell lined up"? Hey, NO TWO Tenors line up the same way, so why are you tryin g to line up a Tenor with an Alto? That's like comparing Apples to Screwdrivers. . If you made your Alto playing so similar to Tenor playing, why bother playing the Alto? It's a DIFFERENT animal, intentionally! I wouldn't dream of trying to compare positions on 42B & a 50B & yet they're a LOT more similar then any Alto to any Tenor. Try playing a Bb Soprano then a BBb Contra, I GUARANTEE you, that the positions are different! Or.......Did you know, that 6th position on Bb Piccolo is still shorter than 2nd position on BBb Contra?! > > >But speaking of altos, anybody got a lyre that will fit, for marching band > >season? > > > If anyone has a marching atlo complete with lyre and spats, it would > be Tom Izzo. Tom??? > hahahahahahahah Nooooooooooo I don't march with anything but Tenor Trb, Bass Tuba, Sousaphone or Snare Drum. Why those big instruments you say? Because marching, they're better balanced then many others. Tom From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:26 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:01:52 EDT From: BassBonist@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Changing the part Message-ID: <4f.2a3eb8b.272a4a20@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From my previous posts on this topic the past couple of years, folks will know that I am NOT in favor playing 8vbasso every chance I can get. That said, I want to relate a story of a time when the composer was present and I took a chance on playing it down an octave. Please no flames for being a hotshot: after all, I did this when I was just a young punk and I tell it for "grin value" only. When I was in college, a grad composition student in the jazz band wrote a chart that was tailored for the instrumentation we had at the time, namely, a five part trombone section with three tenor and two bass trombones. The tune had a driving opening with both bass trombones on loud, whole-note low F's for eight bars. After a couple of run-throughs as written, I wanted to hear how it would sound with me playing a pedal F and the other bass on the written octave. After we played it that way, the writer of the chart said, "Wow! You guys sound great! It sounds like a Harley!" I'll admit that when I was eighteen, I was proud to be compared to a classic motorcycle. Matt Varho From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:26 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:49:28 EDT From: Zemry@aol.com To: lewismm@songs.sce.com, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Arbans Received Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I received mine this weekend. I haven't had the time to examine it in detail yet. However, my first superficial impressions are favorable. I like the spiral notebook design....makes it easier to use the book. The cove of the book seems to be washable to a certain extent! The print seems to be easier to use also. ****************************************************************************** * Richard Zemry Johnson, Jr. Bossier Parish Community College Jazz Ensemble Shreveport Metropolitan Concert Band Impact Band playing "gumbo-funk" "There won't come a time when you won't have to practice anymore." J. J. Johnson ****************************************************************************** *** From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:26 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:00:27 -0700 From: "Daniel Cloutier" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: WolfPak Update Message-ID: <200010270400.VAA07035@mail6.bigmailbox.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary Mime-Version: 1.0 >"Chuck De Paolo" wrote: >4. I have no idea of how the quality of materials or workmanship >compares to the old Connecticut made models. I also do not know >where these new models are made. Could be the same place for all I >know. Perhaps someone who owns one of the new ones and has used the >old ones can enlighten us. AFAIK, the original Wolfpak guy was forced out by his partners, who (I was told) were more interested in making money than useful products. I was also told the the original Wolfpak guy is still making the orginal cases, but under a different name. Will check my sources and report back when I know more. ------------------------------------------------------------ --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Before you buy. From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:26 2000 Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 23:28:44 -0500 From: Craig Parmerlee To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: There is no defense for bass trombone players :) Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001026232146.01f6cb88@acticalc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I don't think anybody has any objection to the scenario you raised, where the player discusses this with the director/arranger/bandleader and a decision is made. That may be a normal case in your work, but in the circles where I travel, I see wanton, indiscriminate violence done to perfectly good arrangements with no discussion or other sign of an intelligent thought process. I would add that if you find that this happens a great deal, perhaps the arrangers need some education. Later, Craig P.S. I'm not picking on bass players. In the case that triggered this discussion, I was one of the three bass players, and I felt this "artistic liberty" reflected badly on me (guilt by association). At 08:03 PM 10/26/2000 -0400, Agapebassbone@aol.com wrote: >In defense of bass trombone players everywhere I'd like to say a couple of >things. There has been many occasions where I have played pieces of music >that were written one way and were played with octave displacements in >performances(either live, studio, or live recordings). Usually there were no >indications in the parts to do so but sounded so much better with the lower >octave. I am not saying that every bass trombone part should be treated this >way because there have been many times when it is just down-right wrong to do >such a thing. I can think of many tunes that were always played down the >octave on a many different albums(usually albums with the composer as part of >the group). Of my past band leaders/conductors none were so strict and hard >nosed that they wouldn't consider alterations in the music. Usually I would >go up to them at some point and say "I was listening to such-n-such album >with such-n-such and I noticed that in that section on such-n-such song the >bass bone part was taken down an octave." Normally they would say they would >be interested in hearing it in rehearsal. Sometimes they liked it other >times they didn't. Usually the former. >The same goes for lead trumpet lines. Sometimes they sounded fine where they >were but were nasty if taken up. Then on the flip-side a tune would be given >a little extra pepper if they did take it up...but lead trumpet players >antics are a whole new BARREL of worms. > >Josh R. From ???@??? Fri Oct 27 08:24:26 2000 Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 12:04:07 +0200 From: "Dick Sleeman" To: "Trombones and related issues forum" Subject: Re: A great old record Message-ID: <003701c03ffd$7c48de80$f880adc1@dick> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Listmates, Al wrote: : > Hello to all: I was thinking today about a great recording I actually > : owned when I was in high school in the 1960's. It an album called "The > : Trombones Incorporated" or Trombones Inc. Hal answered: : On Side One (The East) the trombonists were Frank Rehak, Jimmy Cleveland, : Eddie Bert, Benny Powell, Bob Brookmeyer, Melba Liston, Henry Coker, Benny : Green, Bob Alexander, Dick Hickson & Bart Varsalona. The tunes were : Neckbones, Dues Blues, Long Before I Knew You, Soft Winds and Tee Jay. JJ : did the arrangements, but did not play. : : On Side Two (The West) the trombonists were George Roberts, Joe Howard, : Herbie Harper, Frank Rosolino, Dick Nash, Ken Shroyer, Ed Kusby, Tommy : Pederson, Murray McEachern, Marshall Cram, Bob Enevoldsen, Milt Bernhart, Bob : Fitzpatrick, Dave Wells, Lou McCreary, Stu Williamson & Warren Barker. The : tunes were Lassus Trombone, It's All Right With Me, Polka Dots and Moonbeams, : Old Devil Moon, Impossible and Heat Wave. The arrangements were by Marty : Paich and Warren Barker. I remember my teacher played a similar record over and over again. He is already fairly old and had to get rid of many of his belongings when he retired into an old people's home, so he doesn't have the record anymore. I believe its title was "ALL MY FRIENDS ARE TROMBONE PLAYERS". Or could it have been the same one this dicussion is about? Thanx for helping me out, Dick Sleeman, Lelystad, Holland. < d.sleeman@hccnet.nl >