TROMBONE-L Digest 1592 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) Dixieland by FOpal@aol.com 2) RE: Musicians, salaries + waste by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 3) RE: Bach 42B versus King 4B? by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 4) Salaries by "Berggren, Erik" 5) RE: Daily Routines by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 6) Shires saga by David Bobroff 7) Trombone Central Email Mailing List by Clay421@aol.com 8) Re: Another Shires Story by Dennis Clason 9) OTJ Classifieds Update - 02/07/2000 by Chris Waage 10) Saw Lloyd Ulyate in Denver by David Oliver 11) Re: Bach 42B versus King 4B? by Mike Coyle 12) Re: Happy New Year to all Chinese Trombonists by "Daniel Pliskin" 13) RE: Musicians, salaries + waste by Mike Coyle 14) Galaxy Dance Band by Mike Coyle 15) Mouthpieces - one more time by MBennetts@aol.com 16) Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by "Daniel Pliskin" 17) RE: Musicians, salaries + waste by sabutin@mindspring.com 18) Results - was re. A Men's Health Question by "John Clark" 19) RE: Musicians, salaries + waste by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 20) new trombone concerto premiered! by james.c.shake@us.pwcglobal.com 21) RE: Musicians, salaries + waste by Mike Coyle 22) RE: Daily Routines by sabutin@mindspring.com 23) Musician's $$$$ - doing my part by Mike Coyle 24) Oregon Audition by "Bryce L. Mecham" 25) Value of two trombones? by Donn Schaefer 26) salaries by Charles 27) Re: salaries by Mike Coyle 28) Re: Mouthpieces - one more time by sabutin@mindspring.com 29) RE: Musicians, salaries + waste by sabutin@mindspring.com 30) Re: Oregon Audition by Douglas Yeo 31) Re: Salaries by "Tom C. Shaddox" 32) RE: Musicians, salaries + waste by Mike Coyle 33) Is being good looking a requirement for Opera musicians? by "Tom C. Shaddox" 34) Re: Mouthpieces - one more time by Dennis Clason 35) Fwd: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by d.huettenbach@ndh.com (Detlef Huettenbach) 36) Re: Salaries by "Adolphus Sprott" 37) Defaye by "Adolphus Sprott" 38) Stocking Corrosion by "Jim Dexter" 39) Physics by "Bryce McGrew" 40) Re: Physics by "Daniel Pliskin" 41) Re: Stocking Corrosion by "Steve Beck" 42) Re: Stocking Corrosion by "Daniel Pliskin" 43) RE: Musicians, salaries + waste by sabutin@mindspring.com 44) Re: Mouthpieces - one more time by Earl Needham 45) Re: Mouthpieces - one more time by Chris Waage 46) Re: Stocking Corrosion by Mike Coyle 47) RE: Musicians, salaries + waste by Mike Coyle 48) Wet lip versus dry lip by Dave Burch 49) Re: Musicians, salaries + waste by Larry White 50) Birth Announcement(s) by "Doug Crane" 51) Re: Salaries by Larry White 52) Re: Birth Announcement(s) by Larry & Carol Bronisz 53) Re: Salaries by Jeff Albert 54) Re: Physics by David Leep From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:46:51 EST From: FOpal@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Dixieland Message-ID: <55.1c92d18.25d034db@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Are there any good dixieland arrangements I could pull together for a high school music district competition... We have a clarinet, bari sax (as an alternative for tuba), a trumpet, drums, piano and me playing trombone. Any good ideas? From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:04:16 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Rod wrote: > Friends: > > The truth of the matter is that what musicians do isn't really very > important in the overall scheme of things. No one is really affected if, > for example, the symphony goes out on strike and the only thing that is at > stake is the existence of the orchestra and the loss of civic pride at > having its symphony disappear. But even that pales to insignificance to > the > ordinary citizen compared to, for example, the local NFL franchise moving > to > another city. > And that is the root of the problem. The musician's lot will not, in fact, cannot, improve until public perception changes. Our local symphony has done well when its 100 or so members can get 2500 people to come to a performance. Our local 140 member wind symphony is very happy when the audience actually outnumbers us! However, when the 30 some odd members of the Nebraska Cornhuskers play in Lincoln, Memorial Stadium becomes the third largest city in Nebraska! Believe me, when we have a cultural change that sees 25,000-30,000 attending a symphony performance, you will see the musician get a bigger piece of the pie. > Sam has demonstrated the relative value of a musician in the private > sector - it is the same as a pot of petunias. As far as the public sector > is concerned, I would venture to say that the schmoozers and social > climbers > that make up the boards of most symphony organizations have no idea of > what > it is that musicians do. > Not just them, but I would say that the general population has no clue as to what musicians do, or what music does for the nation's culture. > All they see are a lot of people in tuxedos and > evening dress sawing away on instruments and producing marvelous music. > But > they have no clue as to how that is really accomplished (my guess is that > they think it all has to do with the conductor) or what the musicians' > lives > are really all about. > I will guarantee you that you are correct. I have discussed this situation with some of my coworkers, particularly those who also play (or have played) instruments. You want to know a common answer? Playing an instrument is a passtime. Tell those sissies that play all day and want to get paid to get a real job and stop whining. Now if this is the view of some of the college educated, what can we expect from the masses? How do we change this? I have to confess that until I actually got to know some musicians, and saw for myself first hand the positive benefits of music in the education of my children, my answer would have been the same as some of my coworkers. And even then, most of the musicians that I know are teachers (who I have always respected) and not entertainers. But how do we expose people to real music? I have tried as a school volunteer and as a scout leader to do this. I purchased recorders for each of my scouts and we worked hard to learn to play them. I consider it a victory that during our annual "no talent night", instead of the stupid skits and comedy acts that we normally have to endure, TWO dens (out of 8) actually performed musical pieces. Both were WEBLOS (4th and 5th graders) dens. One performed a duet with a flute and a trombone, and my den performed three simple pieces with a consort of 5 recorders, two celli, a pennywhistle and a trombone. Three of these instruments were played by parents. But even in my den, 4 out of 6 of the families consider sports to be more important than music, and spare no expense when it comes to athletics. How do we change this? I don't know. > But the truth is that the average CSO player mades > about $35,000 over 42 weeks (I'm going from memory here) for what is > essentially a part-time job. And no one would trade his horn for a broom, > no matter what the pay is. > And this, too, is part of the problem. We are having some real discussion about teacher salaries in this state right now. Why? Because too many teachers have stopped complaining about their salaries and have taken up brooms rather than put up with a bunch of undisciplined brats and incompetent management for the peanuts that they were paid. Now we have a teacher shortage. They are trying to plug it with "paraprofessionals", but are having a hard time retaining them at $7.50 per hour when Wendy's pays $8.50 and hour and the telemarketing firms will give you $11.00 per hour, and benefits! In the end, I think that the teachers will not get what they want (decent working conditions), but they will get a bit better compensation for what they have to put up with. It is about time! > But Sam's main point is well taken. In a $9 million budget, why is the > musicians' share so low? Why are administrators so well paid? What do > administrators actually DO? Its seems that their high pay (and this is > not > merely about the CSO) is simply a reward for having scaled the pyramid > (over > the backs of co-workers, usually) rather than a reflection of the value of > their services. > Is this different than in any other line of work? If someone can tell me a line of work where there is equality in pay, I'd be most happy. School Superintendents don't put up with near what a teacher does. Their pay is higher. Managers get paid twice to three times a production worker's salary for attending meetings. Heck, even the Pope and his cardinals look a bit better off than most parish priests that I have seen. Is there equality anywhere? Has there ever been? Ken Dowdy ps - sorry for the rant. I did use the word "trombone" twice, however. From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:14:28 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: Zemry@aol.com, TROMBONE-L@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Bach 42B versus King 4B? Message-ID: <21E592FA8BA7D311B5B100062B001FE2082F2B@LEE2> Swap horns/mouthpieces with him for a piece or two. Shouldn't that tell you the difference? If you still like his sound better, it is not the setup. I tried this one: Wrote King 4B on a piece of masking tape and stuck it on my 42-B bell to see if it would change my sound. But I would have had to take off the piece of masking tape that said, "Blow in other end," and on reflection decided it wasn't a good idea. /tim > -----Original Message----- > From: Zemry@aol.com [SMTP:Zemry@aol.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 8:30 PM > To: TROMBONE-L@lists.missouri.edu > Subject: Bach 42B versus King 4B? > > I play a Bach 42B with a 5G gold mouthpiece. The guy who sits next to me > in > our community concert plays a King 4B with a Bach 6/5 AL mouthpiece. He > has a > lot brassier sound than I do...and one that I envy at times. Could it be a > > product of our different set-ups? From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:05:30 -0600 From: "Berggren, Erik" To: "'Trombone-L'" Subject: Salaries Message-ID: <69B69101614FD3119D9F00104B9883E70E8E33@bkxchusr01.bk.state.ks.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Since I like to look at most life situations with a bit of humor tossed in, I thought I'd try to get a chuckle out of a few of you. This was passed on to me from another bone playing friend of mine. I don't want or intend to offend anyone on the list,...or anyone for that matter. We all should be able to laugh at ourselves once in awhile. I just hope you can get a laugh or two out of this. Sorry if it's old humor to any of you. Here 'goes: Q: What's the difference between a Tenor sax player and a macaw? A: One is loud, obnoxious and noisy, and the other is a bird. Q: What kind of calendar does a trombonist use for his gigs? A: "Year-at-a-glance" Q: What's the difference between a lawnmower and a tenor sax? A: Lawnmowers sound better in small ensembles. Q: What is another term for trombone? A: A wind driven, manually operated, pitch approximator. Q: What's the difference between a baritone sax and a vacuum cleaner? A: The vibrato. Q: What do all great conductors have in common? A: They're all dead. Q: Did you hear about the harpist who played in tune? .....Neither did I. Q: What do you throw a drowning bass player? A: His Amp. Q: What's the difference between a cello and a coffin? A: A coffin has the corpse' inside' Q: What's the difference between a girl singer and a piranha? A: Lipstick. Q: What's the difference between a conductor and a sack of fertilizer? A: The sack. Q: How many alto sax players does it take to change a light bulb? A: Five. one to handle the bulb and four to contemplate how 'Bird' would have done it. Q: Why do violinists put a cloth between their chin and their instruments? A: Violins don't have spit valves. Q: What's the definition of a nerd? A: Someone who owns an A clarinet. Q: What's the definition of Perfect Pitch? A: When the banjo doesn't hit the side of the dumpster. Q: Why do clarinetists leave their cases on the dashboard? A: So they can park in the handicapped zones. Q: How do you make a trombone sound like a French horn? A: Stick your hand in the bell and play all the wrong notes. Q: How do you reduce wind drag on a trombonist's car? A: Take the Domino's Pizza sign off the roof. Q: What's the definition of optimism? A: A bass trombone player with a beeper. Q: How is a savings bond like a musician? A: Eventually it may mature and make some money. Q: What should you do if you run over a bass player? A: Back up. Q: What's the difference between an oboe and an onion? A: No one cries when you chop up an oboe. Q: What's the difference between a bassoon and a trampoline? A: You take your shoes off when you jump on a trampoline. Q: How do you make a violin sound like a viola? A: Sit in the back and don't play. From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:23:18 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: ealewis@indiana.edu Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Daily Routines Message-ID: <21E592FA8BA7D311B5B100062B001FE2082F2C@LEE2> Assuming function should precede form: There probably should be a fairly significant difference in the daily routine of the raw player with some big gaps in his/her skill level (like me) and the daily routine of the accomplished player who needs to maintain and refine. Given sufficient practice time, it wouldn't matter, but most of us aren't in that boat. You can probably get more bang for your practice hour working on your faults during your development period; I suspect the efforts on tone and range are overdone (this may be heresy to most). Tone and range probably don't develop much faster for the extra effort, and what makes the amateur glaringly obvious is usually sloppiness, not tone and range. This doesn't mean I disagree with any of the standard daily routine advice. But I don't know that I'd spend hours on long tones and neglect articulation, it should really be the other way around. yours, tim richardson > -----Original Message----- > From: sabutin@mindspring.com [SMTP:sabutin@mindspring.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 8:32 AM > To: ealewis@indiana.edu > Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > Subject: Re: Daily Routines > > At 05:18 PM 2/4/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi all, > > > >This mostly directed to professional players and teachers, but I was > >wondering what are some exercizes or etudes that you make it a point to > do > >each day? Some people call these a "warm-up," but what I mean are > >techniques that you have practiced day after day for years, whether you > >are required to have them down or not. > > ================================ > > Embouchure studies. > > Embouchure studies. > > Embouchure studies. > > Embouchure studies. > > All kinds. > > Every day. > > Long tones, harmonics, flexibilities, slow, connected long and short > scales, fast scales, range studies (both directions). > > Remington, Schlossberg, Caruso (if you can find someone who REALLY > studied w/Carmine Caruso long enough to understand what he was trying to > teach...the books don't cut it, in my opinion). > > I have played with literally hundreds of professional brass > players...some could play very high, some very low, some very loud, some > very soft, some could play fast, some had a great legato...but almost ALL > of them had a good, solid embouchure, and with very few exceptions, all of > them took care of that embouchure every day w/various exercises. > > The musculature necessary to play a brass instrument is extraordinarily > strange...not many humans in the history of our evolution have developed > the muscles around their mouth to such a great degree, and as a result we > are not genetically programmed to have great strength in that region. > W/the > exception of wind players (and possibly professional smilers like MCs, > politicians and other professional boot lickers), NO ONE has EVER gotten > an > evolutionary boost from having muscles around their mouth that could bench > press a locomotive. > > If you want such a thing, you have to exercise to get it, and exercise > to properly maintain it. > > 'Tain't natural... > > Sometimes, someone's natural proclivities combined w/a > performance/rehearsal schedule will be sufficient in this regard, but > rarely. > > Mostly, y'gotta dig it out by yourself. > > Every day. > > Later... > > S. > > ---snip--- > > From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 15:37:37 +0000 From: David Bobroff To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Shires saga Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000207153737.007a1430@centrum.is> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Regarding my assertion that I contacted Steve Shires about ten years ago Larry Bronisz wrote: >That is very interesting. I know that eight years ago Steve was working at >Edwards in Wisconsin - he helped me pick out a horn at the Edwards factory >in November of 1992. >He didn't found his company until 1995. As someone else has already pointed, out he was at Osmun then. At that time he was building trombones, or at least bell sections. Larry Borden writes: >I think everyone who is upset about Steve's slow delivery habits has a >wrong-headed attitude. You are entitled to hold any opinion you like but I certainly don't agree with this blanket statement. >First, these are custom made instruments. They aren't cookie-cutter models. >This takes time and is very expensive to manufacture. If we want the best >then we need to be patient. The more pressure we put on an artisan like >Steve the more we end up compromising the very product we would like to be >flawless. I was patient. I made several calls, in advance, to find out if he could have something for me to try when I would be in the area. In each case he said "yes" and to call him a week or two before my arrival. I did so in each case and in each case he had "just sent everything out" and had nothing in the shop for me to see. After six months of this I stopped calling. My Thein contrabass is a one-at-a-time custom built instrument, handmade by craftsmen as well. In March of 1996 I ordered it. I was told it would be ready by the ITF in July of that year. I was asked to send 1/3 of the price as a deposit. I sent it and paid the balance when I picked it up---in July. (They had originally planned to be at the ITF that year but cancelled for some reason. They faxed me a couple of weeks before to let me know of the change.) >Second, our colleagues who play French horns, oboes, English horns, violins, >violas..., for example, are willing to wait for several years in some cases >to get models from some makers. Yes, and they are told up front that it will take that long. I also think that the prospective buyers have had a chance to try some of the hardware before making such a financial committment. >I have suggested to Steve myself that he only >promise a date that is realistic and if he beats it then he has happy >customers. That just isn't the way he works. We need to recognize this. I do recognize this. As a result, I took your advice years before you gave it and decided to: >vote with orders and >dollars....... ......elsewhere. >Beating up on Steve is non-productive. I'm not beating up on Steve. I have seen a number of rounds of Steve Shires threads on this list come and go. This time, however, I decided to contribute my experience to the discussion. I do not question Steve Shires' craftsmanship. I pointed out that I never got to try anything of his so I have no experience with his work. The problem I had was that he did not seem to take an interest in my interest is his work. There are a couple of list members who frequently say "whatever works for YOU...." Well, this didn't work for me. It also does not seem to work for some others, either. non-belligerently, David Bobroff From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 11:28:49 EST From: Clay421@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Trombone Central Email Mailing List Message-ID: <28.17f7270.25d04cc1@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, I would like to invite you to join the TboneCentral community. Love to play trombone? Love to talk about it? If you answer yes to these questions, then you should join Trombone Central, one of the fastest growing trombone mailing lists on the Internet. I have operated this discussion group for about 2 years now, I would be honored if you could join our forum. You can talk about anything related to the trombone, to trombone players from around the world. If you are interested in joining, please send a blank e-mail to TboneCentral-subscribe@onelist.com If the e-mail somehow does not work, try going to the following web page: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/TboneCentral Thank you for your time (For more info---visit ONElist : Music : Instruments :· or Trombone Central) There are currently about 200 members from around the world! If you do not wish to join this community, please ignore this message. From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:41:39 MST From: Dennis Clason To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Another Shires Story Message-ID: <200002071642.JAA179744@nestor.NMSU.Edu> Addressed to: duga0028@tc.umn.edu trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu ** Reply to note from Michael D Dugan 02/05/00 1:02pm -0600 > The Minn. Orch section does play Bach, but one of them has a Shires valve > section and slide. > > Mike Dugan Mmmm, wait a second. Shires valve. Shires slide. Shires leadpipe? (probably) And this is still a Bach? He plays a Bach bell flare. Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason email: dclason@nmsu.edu Department of Economics / University Statistics Center New Mexico State University Las Cruces, New Mexico USA From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 10:44:19 -0600 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L , brass@quartz.gly.fsu.edu Subject: OTJ Classifieds Update - 02/07/2000 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Online Trombone Journal Classifieds (http://www.trombone.org/classifieds) have been updated as of 10:45 a.m. CST on February 7, 2000 with 17 new listings. OTJ Instrument Classifieds http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/instruments.asp OTJ Accessory Classifieds http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/accessories.asp OTJ Music Classifieds http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/music.asp To place an ad: http://www.trombone.org/classifieds/adform.asp If you have any questions or comments about the Online Trombone Journal Classifieds, please contact me at chris@trombone.org. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Waage chris@trombone.org Associate Webmaster The Online Trombone Journal http://www.trombone.org From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:07:35 -0800 From: David Oliver To: Trombone List Subject: Saw Lloyd Ulyate in Denver Message-ID: <389F09E6.D8C72EAB@access1.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As promised by a few listers, Lloyd Ulyate did indeed play in Denver last night with the Ralph Carmichael big band. It was a full house in the ballroom at the Denver Center for the Performing Arts. It was sponsored by one of the two local big band/oldies stations on the AM dial (KLZ, 560 KHz). They played in Ft. Collins and Colorado Springs the prior two nights. I enjoyed it immensely. "Sing, Sing, Sing" got the best applause, but I was expecting that. The 2nd and 3rd trombone guys took most of the solos, but Lloyd still played his solo on one of Ralph's arrangements in the 3rd set. He has such a pretty upper range sound. I was able to talk to him after the 2nd set, and he was very nice as usual. He's now got an e-mail account, and I asked him if he'd heard of (this) trombone list. I told him that his friend Alex Iles can clue him in, and I also plan on e-mailing him info. It would be neat to see him on the list too. His late 40's Bach was up on his trombone stand. I remember someone on the t-list wrote that he also still uses the Bach 12 mouthpiece bought new with the horn. I didn't get a chance to talk to the bass trombonist (Craig Ware) this time, but it looks like he still plays the Doug Yeo model Yamaha. He must also arrange big band stuff, because his name is listed as such on one of the big band Christmas CD's I have. He has a good mentor in Ralph. I was off to the right at a table, so my ears got a good angle on Craig's sound. Next time I hope to actually talk to Ralph. I bought more CD's of course, as Ralph now has more out. One is "Big Band Swing Classics" (which I'm listening to now), and the other is "Big Band Gospel Classics". The wesbite per the CD cover is: http://www.platinumcd.com David Oliver Westminster, Colorado USA Bass/Tenor Trombone (utility), Denver Concert Band Bass Trombone, Rocky Mountain Christian Church From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 11:21:07 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: Zemry@aol.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Bach 42B versus King 4B? Message-ID: <200002071723.LAA23644@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:30 PM 2/6/00 , Zemry@aol.com wrote: >I play a Bach 42B with a 5G gold mouthpiece. The guy who sits next to me in >our community concert plays a King 4B with a Bach 6/5 AL mouthpiece. He has a >lot brassier sound than I do...and one that I envy at times. Could it be a >product of our different set-ups? > You bet! The Bach 42B has a darker sound. Probably the biggest difference comes from the two different mouthpieces. A 5G will be MUCH darker than a 61/2 AL (which I believe to be an inappropriate mouthpiece for a large bore horn anyway). MC From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 09:25:31 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Happy New Year to all Chinese Trombonists Message-ID: <20000207172531.36512.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > > Am I being discriminated against, here? > >Not necessarily. Do you speak Mandarin? I've never had to. I'm always too busy eating. DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 11:36:43 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <200002071738.LAA25187@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This thread has been interesting in terms of personal opinions, and it has lead to some valuable points peripheral to the principal issue. However, it has not been particularly elucidating in terms of fact. It is easy for people to speculate on matters such as appropriation and disbursement of funds and come to an uninformed conclusion about how the money is or is not being spent. As non-profit and not-for-profit organizations are required to publish annual reports and make all revenue spending a matter of public record, I say someone should get a hold of that info, report to the list and then we could perhaps have a better informed discussion of the matter without the negative emotional assertions fueled by lack of knowledge and conclusions drawn despite the lack of facts. What might be a very important contribution to our knowledge is being marred by speculation and assumption. Let's get the facts! Mike Coyle From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 11:40:54 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Galaxy Dance Band Message-ID: <200002071742.LAA25546@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi folks, I was producing a series of shows in Boca Raton last week and ran across a band out of St. Louis called the Galaxy Dance Band. They were fantastic and even had the good sense to include a trombone in their horn section. This is a group that I may be interested in booking and promoting in the future and just wanted to see if any of you folks were familiar with them. Thanks, Mike From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 12:57:36 EST From: MBennetts@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Mouthpieces - one more time Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 02/07/00 11:24:07 AM Central Standard Time, astro@pconline.com writes: > A 5G will be MUCH darker than a > 61/2 AL (which I believe to be an inappropriate mouthpiece for a large bore > horn anyway). 2-1/2 months ago I purchased a Conn 88HTO, to supplement my Olds Recording (.495/.510 bore) which I have been playing with a 6-1/2 AL mouthpiece. To try to keep as much as possible constant while I became accustomed to this monster, I am using a 6-1/2 A mouthpiece: identical rim with a more appropriate shank, I was told. Three things have happened in the intervening 2-1/2 months: 1. I have gotten reasonably well acquainted with the Conn: it's the only one I practice absent a special reason to play the Olds. 2. Through hard work on long tones and similar techniques my usable *upper* range on the 88H is growing a lot. 3. Despite hard work, etc., etc., I still have no usable pedal range whatsoever on the 88H. I can actually produce pedal tones more cleanly on the peashooter, and can barely produce a pedal tone on the Conn. (though the trigger range clear down through C has developed surprisingly quickly). It occurs to me that a different mouthpiece might be a part of the solution, and I have a couple of questions. (I have to number everything, because I'm an accountant): 1. What do you all think of the (a) keep the mouthpieces similar vs (b) play the right mouthpiece for the instrument argument? 2. If trying different mouthpieces for the 88H, what one(s) would you suggest? I know that my face might not be like yours, so you can't give me a certain answer. FWIW, I play 2nd trombone in symphonic band, will probably play 1st in summer community band, and play where needed (usually 2nd or bass) in a small R&B (renaissance & baroque) group. Mike Bennett --------------- "All priests in my diocese are hereby urged to play the tombone since this instrument can make God's voice heard". 16th Century Bishop of VŠsterŒs, Sweden From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:07:47 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <20000207180747.63696.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Iâve found that its all in the name. When I designed video games for Atari, there was no money in it. When I went on to design graphics systems, virtually the same work, I was paid way better. The same thing showed up with I was designing robotics...there was no money in it. When I, instead, was designing electro-mechinal control systems, the same work, I got paid well. The more romantic the job sounds, the less theyâre willing to pay. Itâs clear to me that we need to simply change our titles, in order to be better paid. Iâd be willing to believe that if we called ourselves precision brass burnishers thereâd be money in it. And donât forget that OSHA will want you to wear ear protection, a face shield, fire-proof rarments, steel toe shoes... DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 13:39:31 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: kdowdy@oppd.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <200002071841.NAA31146@fb01.eng00.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:04 AM 2/7/00 -0600, you wrote: > > Rod wrote: > >> Friends: >> >> The truth of the matter is that what musicians do isn't really very >> important in the overall scheme of things. No one is really affected if, >> for example, the symphony goes out on strike and the only thing that is at >> stake is the existence of the orchestra and the loss of civic pride at >> having its symphony disappear. But even that pales to insignificance to >> the >> ordinary citizen compared to, for example, the local NFL franchise moving >> to >> another city. ================== Short term, I think this is absolutely correct. Long term, I'm not so sure. Music...ALL music...forms (and informs) the society as a whole. From the most hostile and primitive gangsta rap and grunge rock to the most sublime performances of Mozart and Ellington, they ALL have their effects. Take away the antidotes to truly brutal, soul deadening music...take AWAY the symphonies, the operas and great jazz performances, the gentle folk singers, the great latin music and roaring rock bands...and you are left with only music that deadens and puts to sleep its listeners. I think the more evolved members of society, no matter WHAT their position in its hierarchy (rich or poor, educated or uneducated), realize this in one way or another, and tend to support great music in one form or another. People who are involved in making some kind of art music will generally NEVER be paid what purveyors of a more popular form of art earn. Even the most popular classical artists make a only fraction of what rock stars make, for example, and principle that trickles down to the working musicians in the ensembles as well. My intended point in this thread has always been this...the money paid to symphony (and jazz) musicians will always reflect those idioms' relative unpopularity (compared to mainstream "pop" music), but even though this is true, much of the money that SHOULD be headed towards those serious working musicians is waylaid by bandits of all persuasions before it ever GETS top them. This is equally true in more popular idioms...maybe even MORE true...but it doesn't really matter to pop musicians if their record company is sotto voce selling their albums in Czechoslovakia or cooking the books, since the musicians are MAKING 3 (or 300 or 3000) times a living wage. However, it DOES matter to the people in the Colorado Symphony, who are at the tail end of a wasteocracy (kleptocracy?) that turns a $9 million orchestra fund into their $40,000 paycheck every year. Sure, serious music should be promoted, and sure, it would be nice if that music were popular enough so that instead of $9 million, maybe they had $14 million or $20 million to spread around...but it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. I'm not even sure it's SUPPOSED to happen, but w/out dismantling the entire societal structure as it stands now...uh uh...no chance. Soooo....what to do now? Serious musicians are being progressively shorted here in America, to the point where it's entirely forseeable that in the next 20 or 30 years, should the trend continue, we'll be seeing stories about American orchestras folding like the one that ran this week about the end of the South African Symphony...pictures of distressed violists, tear drenched stories about "the last encore", etc... AND THIS SHORTING IS NOT NECESSARY. It's NOT about supply and demand, it's NOT about "too many good musicians coming out of schools"...it's about bad (whether willfully bad [read thieving and/or greedy] or just incompetent) management, coupled with an ineffective union. I say again...everywhere I go, the stagehands, the actors, the managers, the recording people, they're are ALL being paid more than the musicians. Hell, even the BARTENDERS make more, most nights. Waiters and cooks, too. What's up with this??? Think about it. ==================== > And that is the root of the problem. The musician's lot will not, >in fact, cannot, improve until public perception changes. Our local >symphony has done well when its 100 or so members can get 2500 people to >come to a performance. Our local 140 member wind symphony is very happy >when the audience actually outnumbers us! However, when the 30 some odd >members of the Nebraska Cornhuskers play in Lincoln, Memorial Stadium >becomes the third largest city in Nebraska! Believe me, when we have a >cultural change that sees 25,000-30,000 attending a symphony performance, >you will see the musician get a bigger piece of the pie. > >> Sam has demonstrated the relative value of a musician in the private >> sector - it is the same as a pot of petunias. As far as the public sector >> is concerned, I would venture to say that the schmoozers and social >> climbers >> that make up the boards of most symphony organizations have no idea of >> what >> it is that musicians do. >> > Not just them, but I would say that the general population has no >clue as to what musicians do, or what music does for the nation's culture. > >> All they see are a lot of people in tuxedos and >> evening dress sawing away on instruments and producing marvelous music. >> But >> they have no clue as to how that is really accomplished (my guess is that >> they think it all has to do with the conductor) or what the musicians' >> lives >> are really all about. >> > I will guarantee you that you are correct. I have discussed this >situation with some of my coworkers, particularly those who also play (or >have played) instruments. You want to know a common answer? Playing an >instrument is a passtime. Tell those sissies that play all day and want to >get paid to get a real job and stop whining. Now if this is the view of >some of the college educated, what can we expect from the masses? How do we >change this? =========================== We change this by demanding more for our services, and by educating people about what it is we do...about its value and about its difficulty. (An occasional metaphorical [or NOT so metaphorical} smack in the mouth to anyone who thinks we're "sissies" might help too. Imagine someone telling Mingus or Joan Sutherland they were a "sissy". NOT BLOODY LIKELY.) ===================================== I have to confess that until I actually got to know some >musicians, and saw for myself first hand the positive benefits of music in >the education of my children, my answer would have been the same as some of >my coworkers. And even then, most of the musicians that I know are teachers >(who I have always respected) and not entertainers. But how do we expose >people to real music? I have tried as a school volunteer and as a scout >leader to do this. I purchased recorders for each of my scouts and we >worked hard to learn to play them. I consider it a victory that during our >annual "no talent night", instead of the stupid skits and comedy acts that >we normally have to endure, TWO dens (out of 8) actually performed musical >pieces. Both were WEBLOS (4th and 5th graders) dens. One performed a duet >with a flute and a trombone, and my den performed three simple pieces with a >consort of 5 recorders, two celli, a pennywhistle and a trombone. Three of >these instruments were played by parents. But even in my den, 4 out of 6 of >the families consider sports to be more important than music, and spare no >expense when it comes to athletics. How do we change this? I don't know. ================== I don't think it CAN be changed, nor is it necessary. Cut the waste, cut the graft, and the money available would be sufficient to pay a living wage for every accomplished working musician. =============================== > >> But the truth is that the average CSO player mades >> about $35,000 over 42 weeks (I'm going from memory here) for what is >> essentially a part-time job. And no one would trade his horn for a broom, >> no matter what the pay is. ======================= IT IS NOT A "PART TIME JOB". IT IS A "24 HOUR, 76 DAY/WEEK JOB". If a musician is going to be ready to play at the level demanded in a good symphony orchestra or as a freelancer in a major city, that musician had damned well BETTER live every day as an eight hour workday...either practicing, rehearsing, teaching, performing or in some other way involved with music, because that's the ONLY way to get to (and stay at) that level...the occasional greatly gifted "natural" excluded. ==================================== >> > And this, too, is part of the problem. We are having some real >discussion about teacher salaries in this state right now. Why? Because >too many teachers have stopped complaining about their salaries and have >taken up brooms rather than put up with a bunch of undisciplined brats and >incompetent management for the peanuts that they were paid. Now we have a >teacher shortage. They are trying to plug it with "paraprofessionals", but >are having a hard time retaining them at $7.50 per hour when Wendy's pays >$8.50 and hour and the telemarketing firms will give you $11.00 per hour, >and benefits! In the end, I think that the teachers will not get what they >want (decent working conditions), but they will get a bit better >compensation for what they have to put up with. It is about time! ====================== A perfect analogy with wha6t's happening in music. I have met about 20 good trombonists in the last 6 months, young and not so young...all but two felt the need for a day gig, and they were complaining that they didn't have time practice enough to get to a level where they could just play for a living. =========================== >> But Sam's main point is well taken. In a $9 million budget, why is the >> musicians' share so low? Why are administrators so well paid? What do >> administrators actually DO? Its seems that their high pay (and this is >> not >> merely about the CSO) is simply a reward for having scaled the pyramid >> (over >> the backs of co-workers, usually) rather than a reflection of the value of >> their services. >> > Is this different than in any other line of work? If someone can >tell me a line of work where there is equality in pay, I'd be most happy. >School Superintendents don't put up with near what a teacher does. Their >pay is higher. Managers get paid twice to three times a production worker's >salary for attending meetings. Heck, even the Pope and his cardinals look a >bit better off than most parish priests that I have seen. Is there equality >anywhere? Has there ever been? ====================== All true. Does that mean we should give up ? How do they manage it in Europe and Japan? S. ======================= > > Ken Dowdy > > ps - sorry for the rant. I did use the word "trombone" twice, >however. > From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 18:55:47 GMT From: "John Clark" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Results - was re. A Men's Health Question Message-ID: <20000207185548.77167.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed First off, I would like to publicly thank the individuals who took the time to share their individual stories regarding the vasectomy procedure and recovery times. Several other list members had requested the information gleaned from my original message, so I have prepared a simple digest of the replies. "John" Original Question: In the next week, I am scheduled for a vasectomy.º According to the doctor who will perform the procedure, I should refrain from exercize for a few weeks afterward.º I have also been cautioned against any heavy lifiting. Would anyone on the list who had undergone this procedure please share (privately, off the list) their experience? I cannot afford to take time from playing, but of course I do not wish to cause any further problems post-surgery. For the record, I play a Conn 88H. Results: I was able to play with minimal discomfort the next day. Posture wasn't great, but at least the instrument was in my hands. For the record, I have included the responses from most of the individuals who replied to the original post. I have kept them anonymous, and I hope this information will be worthwhile to someone else in the future. Also, replies number 07 and 16 were from doctors who are current trombone-l subscribers. "John" Replies: 01.-------------------------------------------- I have had this procedure and was playing the following day (Bach 42BO). The operation is more difficult mentally than physically (for me). Try to be relaxed as possible during. Play the next day unless youº notice some abdominal strain. And mention your concern to the urologist. Good luck. 02.-------------------------------------------- I'm an emergency physician, and the happy father of four children.º Although having all the relevant medical knowledge at my disposal, I remember going to my father-in-law, who is quite macho, with muscular arms and legs, having run a backhoe all his life, and asking him how a vasectomy personally affected him.º º Somehow, the personal experience was just as important as the medical science.º He was very pleased, finding it seemed to make no difference whatsoever in his performance or output. Now, more directly to answer your question.º The first 24 hours are the most important.º Almost everybody to whom I've spoken about their own experience with the procedure found that if they heeded their doctor's advice, took it easy, wore the little ice bag in their underwear, or pants, for one day, did fine.º The majority of those that went out and partied, to celebrate, tended to develop major swelling and bruising, which caused them quite a bit of discomfort and prolonged healing. The skin, itself, will seal within 72 hours.º Most advise not to soak in a bathtub for those 3 days. At the time I had a vasectomy, I was a trumpet player.º Within 24 hours I found no discomfort in playing my trumpet.º Carrying the trumpet, in its case, still did not constitute "heavy lifting". Remember, pain is your friend!º It keeps you from causing damage to yourself.º So, pay attention; if it hurts, don't do it, until you have time to heal. Good luck! 03.-------------------------------------------- Mine was a piece of cake (except for the mental discomfort of knowing a surgeon was fooling around where he was fooling around during the actual surgery). (Well, also the part where I went back a couple of times after surgery to provide specimens for sperm count, and I knew the office staff knew what I was doing in that little room). >º For the record, I play a Conn 88H. Me too.º Though I had mine done during my butt-headed period of trombone inactivity, I don't believe playing trombone (even a pretty big rascal like the Conn 88H) would have been a problem.º I'm not conscious of trombone playing causing any particular strain in the area affected.º Caveat:º I plan pretty tame, legit stuff.º If you're same kind of jazz acrobat, it might be different.º But I'd assume you don't do jazz acrobatics on an 88H. Don't worry. 04.-------------------------------------------- I've had the operation and, aside from the idea of it (WHAT?!?), it is not really that big of a deal. My doctor did not technically do an incision. He poked a hole into the side of the scrotum with some kind of sharp, pointy, non-scalpel instrument, fished the vas-defren(?) tube out thru the hole, cut a segment out of it, tied both ends, popped the ends back in and slapped (gently) a small sticky bandage over the small cut. Same thing on the other side. I think the "heavy lifting" and "exercising" prohibitions are probably to avoid having the wound sites open up and bleed. (They do weep a little for the first few hours or so if I remember correctly.) I don't think playing trombone would be a factor, although I was not a player at the time so I can't give you first hand experiences about that. Do not misunderstand. I WAS SORE for about a day; I believe the medical gurus call it discomfort rather than pain. You feel like you want to keep your legs FAR apart and not bang anything down there. It was primarily a sore pain in the testicles, similar to the after affects of getting hit in the groin. This was due to, I believe, 1) The local anesthetic that is injected into the vas and hence goes into the testicles and up towards the prostate (I didn't like that part) and 2) The "rough" handling by my doctor during the procedure; although in fairness, things within the scrotum do tend to move around and one wants to be very careful about what gets cut. I believe that there are several important blood vessels in there too. Any questions, please ask away. It's been about 12 years since mine and no problems. I would recommend the procedure and would do it again (if I REALLY had to!). 05.-------------------------------------------- Just last August I underwent this uniquely " male" experience. My experience went quite well, but it was the most uncomfortable (not physically) experience that I ever had. The local anethesia was a pain...literally...because no man should be given a shot in that area :(º However, it was very brief, and not really a big deal. After surgery, my doc suggested frozen peas as a relief to the swelling. Don't eat them, but sit on them!! Another relief to the discomfort is your favorite beverage, preferably alcoholic. Several of them. I was only in mild discomfort afterwards for a period of about 48 hours. Your wife will certainly love you for undergoing this experience. Later on the pain and discomfort are worth it!! 06.-------------------------------------------- First, don't worry.º It all works out fine.º They've done lots of these befoer and know how to do them. I had mine done in the morning and went to work in the afternoon.º It was a bit uncomfortable for a few days.º Then I realized that I'd be uncomfortable with as bandage stuck to my balls, whether I had had surgery or not. I love playing trombone and, still, wouldn't imagine that you'd want to play for a few days.º After that, I'd suppose that you could play in the low couple of octaves.º Sex won't be a problem, either, after it heals.º It's a bit wierd having to masterbate into a cup, so that the lab can make sure that you're really sterile.º Once you pass that test, you're home free.º There are still lots of deadly diseases out there.º I've never had sex that was worth dying for, but maybe that's a shortcoming of mine.º "Shortcoming"...sounds like a bad pun, if I ever heard one. After I was healed, my marriage didn't all of a sudden become wildly sexual, just pleasantly sexual. Remember to laugh at yourself, as you go through a few uncomfortable days. 07.-------------------------------------------- I perform vasectomies frequently and have had one myself.º Play your horn all you want, but avoid heavy lifting or physical exertion such as running for 7-10 days after your procedure.º No need, in my opinion, to take time off from the horn.º I played immediately after the procedure and was hanging ceiling fans that night.º I do not advise the latter, but playing should be no problem! 08.-------------------------------------------- I cannot give you medical advice, so this is not medical advice.º Talk with your doctor is usually the best answer to your questions.º But here are a few thoughts: 1. Valsalva maneuvers or pressure in the abdomen for any reason will tend to irritate recent surgeries. (Appendectomy, cholecystectomy, hernia repair, vasectomy)º A vasectomy is in the abdomen (Actually pelvis, but the pressures don't recognize our conventions :-)).º You should avoid creating high or sudden increased pressures in the abdomen. 2.º Many patients break the recommendations of their health care providers. If you do this (I don't recommend it!) then pay attention to pain and irritation signals from your body. 3. Allowing a surgical procedure to heal appropriately, gives you the BEST CHANCE of a full recovery without any chronic problems, pain among others. 4. Finally, ask your Urologist who is doing the procedure what he or she (:-)) thinks.º How long before you practice stuff that requires significant abdominal support (therefore creating increased abdominal pressures).º As a rule of thumb, how long did he recommend no sex?º Here vibrations, pressures and shearing forces I am sure must be higher than your playing technique :-). Hope this helps you, feel free to send other questions, but remember, I cannot give you medical advice. 09.-------------------------------------------- I am fifty-five years old, and I had my vasectomy 16 years ago. I remember being sore as hell (you feel like someone kicked you in the balls), but I didn't lose any time playing or practicing. I think the type of exercise you will want to avoid is more rigorous, like weight lifting.... 10.-------------------------------------------- *** The following opinions are my own and should not be construed as *** medical advice per se.º I am not a medical doctor.º The decisions *** are yours alone. I have had a vasectomy.º Not a big deal.º I had mine done at Planned Parenthood (outpatient).º I walked out 30 minutes after the procedure (my wife drove).º (Big hint -- RELAX) You probably won't feel like playing the same day (practice before the procedure).º Personally, if I felt like playing the next day -- I would. I was back at work the next day.º Of course I may not have been sitting straight in my chair.º I'm pretty sure I was out running in about a week or so. I also had my gall bladder removed not too long ago.º My doctor told me I could exercise within a week.º I went running 7 days after my surgery.º (Of course, the pace was off quite a bit.)º BTW - I am not a jock. I think a day or two after your procedure, you're going to know what you can handle.º (My guess is that you'll be playing trombone soon.) Refraining from exercising for a "few weeks" seems excessive to me. He/She is probably just covering his/her butt.º The decision will be yours to make.º Good luck. 11.-------------------------------------------- I had a vasectomy about 5 years ago. And went to the ITA festival about a week later. I did not have any problems with playing during the convention, and other than cleaning the incision and keeping it clean (had a small post-op infection, cleared up w/ mild antibiotic), no complications what-so-ever. Follow the docs suggestions, practice without doing anything outlandish or excessive,º and you should be fine. 12.-------------------------------------------- I had one about 12 or so years ago.º I was done on a Friday.º My weekend was no problem whatsoever.º I went back to work band directing on Monday.º There never was or has been a problem.º On the other hand, I had a friend who had much bruising and swelling after the operation.º I think it goes to your mental state at the time of the operation and the skill of the Dr. doing it. 13.-------------------------------------------- Believe me - it's no big deal.º I rode a bike to and from my vasectomy (my b---h of an exwife got the car) and I was (hummmm - how to phrase this) "active" within a week.º Yes, there will be some swelling but I do not recall it as particularly painful.º I was able to play with no problem throughout the recovery time.º Hope this helps relieve some anxiety 14.-------------------------------------------- Never fear, once you get through the stuff with the knife (DON'T WATCH!!!) - and about 24 hours of discomfort you'll be fine.º I played a gig the next day - with the help of a few Advils - and although I was well under my usual outstanding self, I was able to get through it.º The pain in swelling is substantially below the area one uses for trombone playing - so I suspect it's no worse than playing after knee surgery or something. 15.-------------------------------------------- I had it done about 10 years ago.º I did not take enough time off work.º I took two days...and should have taken at least 4.º I ended up with a medium case of internal (scrotum) bleeding...Dr said it was nothing to worry about as long as it did not get infected....also said that I should have taken more time off.º I would recommend 3-4 days of just sitting to let the incisions heal.ººº BTW mine was done with a laser...it's rather interesting watching smoke rise from the nether regions! 16.-------------------------------------------- This is definitely a subject men should know and talk more about. Good that you had the courage to ask! I've had my vasectomy about 1 year ago, and there's really not too much to worry. OK. it will hurt for some days, especially sitting and walking may be painful for some times, but 1. get 2 pairs of rather tight elastic jockey shorts to keep some pressure on the whole area for at least a week, better two, have them put them on (both of them) right there at the surgeon's 2. start taking a pain killer plus some antiphlogistic (like diclofenac or ibuprofen, I can look up US brand names if necessary) right when you get home 3. have some ice ready for the first day or so. 4. Also have enough food and liquids (no alcohol, please) next to your bed, also a bucket, the phone and some books or magazines. 5. Remember you'll need someone to pick you up and drive you home after the operation. I had it done on a friday afternoon (that's what the surgeon recommended), spent the rest of the day in bed, got up to drive to my practice (I'm a general practitioner) on saturday morning for one hour to see some patients, went back to my bed immediately afterwards. Was able to get up on sunday, needed no more pain killer. Went to work on monday, still some swelling (not noticable to others), no real problem. That was about the day I would have been able to practice again - but I don't remember for sure if I did (also played an 88H at that time, before I got my Shires). You will want to stand when you practice, as sitting may still not be too comfortable. It is not like when you have a hernia. Actually the pressure in your abdomen should not cause too much trouble further down. When the scrotum is opened, there is no real bloodshed going on, only some very small blood vessels involved. But then we doctors will always councel people to be careful just to be on the safe side ... :) I don't know about weight lifting, but practicing long low notes shouldn't hurt, and from that point you will be able to tell by yourself. Your surgeon will have told you that there may still be some sperms in your ejaculate for some months. Also don't get careless about AIDS-prevention! So much for now, feel free to ask if you have any more questions or concerns. 17.-------------------------------------------- I had one 10 years ago. I was playing the next day. No problem. I also tested out the plumbing within 24 hours...everything worked fine. The only complication was almost being electrocuted on the operating table...but that's another story...Relax it's an easy procedure... Well, that's about it. While it was not as bad as I anticipated, it wasn't what I would call a pleasant Friday afternoon's activity. Luckily, it's a one-time event, so the difficult part is over. Thanks again to all those who chose to respond, and thanks to this wonderful list! "John" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 13:07:55 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "'sabutin@mindspring.com'" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > > All true. > > Does that mean we should give up ? > No. > How do they manage it in Europe and Japan? > > S. > They have a culture, we do not. ************************************ K. S. Dowdy Bacteria: The only culture some people have. ************************************ From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:48 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 14:08:02 -0500 From: james.c.shake@us.pwcglobal.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: new trombone concerto premiered! Message-ID: <8525687E.00692556.00@intlnamsmtp20.us.pw.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline Since the list has had threads about solo repertoire (or lack thereof), I'm very pleased to report the following: The world premiere of "Trombone Concerto 1999" by Dexter Morrill occurred on Sunday 2/6/2000. It was premiered by Bill Harris (principal trombone of Syracuse Symphony Orchestra (SSO) ) and the SSO. The concerto is a sometimes jazzy and primarily lyrical collection of musical segments. It is in six movements, titled as follows: T.D. (Tommy Dorsey - high range lyricism) March (somewhat reminiscent of Hindemith) Lament (low/trigger register) Tailgate (Dixie style) Fragments (recitative/song fragments) Games (fast technique) Dexter Morrill is professor of music at Colgate University, and composed the concerto specifically for Billy. Professor Morrill grew up as a trumpet player, but one of his formative experiences was hearing Tommy Dorsey play in North Adams, MA. Here is a link to the pre-concert article in the Syracuse Newspapers: http://www.syracuse.com/eguide/index.ssf?/entertainment/stories/20000204_fssotro.html The concerto requires not only a lyrical style, but also has extended sections in the trigger range as well as the requisite (but not overly so) high range demands. Billy's lyricism, tone, and wide open low range shone throughout. There were also some interesting sections where the trombone solo was doubled by the piccolo (16va) and harmonized with by the tuba (about an octave and a sixth down if my memory holds). If history is any guideline, the piece should be of lasting value as the critic (a clarinet player and Schubert enthusiast) panned it - for lack of thematic continuity! (The program notes spelled out the composer's techniques and intents - 6 song movements, rather than thematic motives or compositional development - something along the lines of "Pictures at an Exhibition"). The "review" link is: http://www.syracuse.com/eguide/index.ssf?/entertainment/stories/20000207_fglass.html I do not know whether the concert was recorded (I couldn't see any microphones from where I was sitting), but I will contact the SSO if anyone is interested. I also do not yet know what publishing plans Professor Morrill has for the piece. Congratulations go out to both Dexter Morrill for adding a challenging but fun piece to the trombone repertoire, and to Bill Harris for playing it so well! ---------------------------------------------------------------- The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 13:31:25 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <200002071932.NAA04039@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sam wrote: > However, it DOES matter to the people in the Colorado Symphony, who are >at the tail end of a wasteocracy (kleptocracy?) that turns a $9 million >orchestra fund into their $40,000 paycheck every year. ================= And we know for a fact that this money is being misappropriated or mis-spent? I have to assert again that without the facts I think it is inappropriate and sensationalistic to construe a scenario which assumes that "fat cats" are rippin' off the underdog. If it is true, then we should make as big a stink about it as possible and maybe we could start a trend toward higher salaries for musicians If it is NOT true and we are simply making assumptions based on social conceptions of oppression then we are being unfair. I am not disagreeing with the possibility of this argument, I am simply saying that in order to be taken seriously we need to be well informed. ================= someone else write: >>> But Sam's main point is well taken. In a $9 million budget, why is the >>> musicians' share so low? Why are administrators so well paid? What do >>> administrators actually DO? ================== Again, why not find out what they get paid and where the rest of the money goes before assuming that it is being "absorbed" the corrupt or bloated administrations? As for the notion that our society has no "culture" there is some validity to that. How do you change the public's taste? How do you start to tell people that what you think is important is what they should think is important? Many professions are under paid and many are over paid, but that is a matter of supply and demand and societal priorities. These are things that take a very long time to change. Complaining about it on an obscure trombone email list is not going to do much good. If someone wants to make a big change, get power behind you and demand to be heard. It's a VERY hard job and you'd better give up practicing forever. The good news is that lobbyists get paid a ton of money! Mike From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 14:33:22 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Daily Routines Message-ID: <200002071935.OAA05797@fb02.eng00.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:23 AM 2/7/00 -0500, you wrote: >Assuming function should precede form: >There probably should be a fairly significant difference in the daily >routine of the raw player with some big gaps in his/her skill level (like >me) and the daily routine of the accomplished player who needs to maintain >and refine. Given sufficient practice time, it wouldn't matter, but most of >us aren't in that boat. You can probably get more bang for your practice >hour working on your faults during your development period; I suspect the >efforts on tone and range are overdone (this may be heresy to most). Tone >and range probably don't develop much faster for the extra effort, and what >makes the amateur glaringly obvious is usually sloppiness, not tone and >range. ======================= NO. What makes the amateur glaringly obvious is the sloppiness that COMES for a weak embouchure...sloppy sound, sloppy pitch, sloppy flexibility. Without good crisp and controlled breaks between the partials...a function of embouchure...NO amount of tonguing is going to work. Tone and range...embouchure...DOES develop faster, in direct proportion to the effort invested. Every time. This doesn't mean I disagree with any of the standard daily routine >advice. But I don't know that I'd spend hours on long tones and neglect >articulation, it should really be the other way around. >yours, >tim richardson ================== No again, and I'll tell you why. Moving articulated notes are simply a long note interrupted by the tongue quickly stopping the air and the quick, precise movements of the embouchure during that brief stoppage. Get your long tones and flexibility together, and the tongue will almost take care of itself. I mean, we can ALL say "ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta ta" at a reasonable speed, can't we? Tah Tah... S. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sabutin@mindspring.com [SMTP:sabutin@mindspring.com] >> Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2000 8:32 AM >> To: ealewis@indiana.edu >> Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu >> Subject: Re: Daily Routines >> >> At 05:18 PM 2/4/00 -0500, you wrote: >> >Hi all, >> > >> >This mostly directed to professional players and teachers, but I was >> >wondering what are some exercizes or etudes that you make it a point to >> do >> >each day? Some people call these a "warm-up," but what I mean are >> >techniques that you have practiced day after day for years, whether you >> >are required to have them down or not. >> >> ================================ >> >> Embouchure studies. >> >> Embouchure studies. >> >> Embouchure studies. >> >> Embouchure studies. >> >> All kinds. >> >> Every day. >> >> Long tones, harmonics, flexibilities, slow, connected long and short >> scales, fast scales, range studies (both directions). >> >> Remington, Schlossberg, Caruso (if you can find someone who REALLY >> studied w/Carmine Caruso long enough to understand what he was trying to >> teach...the books don't cut it, in my opinion). >> >> I have played with literally hundreds of professional brass >> players...some could play very high, some very low, some very loud, some >> very soft, some could play fast, some had a great legato...but almost ALL >> of them had a good, solid embouchure, and with very few exceptions, all of >> them took care of that embouchure every day w/various exercises. >> >> The musculature necessary to play a brass instrument is extraordinarily >> strange...not many humans in the history of our evolution have developed >> the muscles around their mouth to such a great degree, and as a result we >> are not genetically programmed to have great strength in that region. >> W/the >> exception of wind players (and possibly professional smilers like MCs, >> politicians and other professional boot lickers), NO ONE has EVER gotten >> an >> evolutionary boost from having muscles around their mouth that could bench >> press a locomotive. >> >> If you want such a thing, you have to exercise to get it, and exercise >> to properly maintain it. >> >> 'Tain't natural... >> >> Sometimes, someone's natural proclivities combined w/a >> performance/rehearsal schedule will be sufficient in this regard, but >> rarely. >> >> Mostly, y'gotta dig it out by yourself. >> >> Every day. >> >> Later... >> >> S. >> >> ---snip--- >> >> > From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 14:07:08 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Musician's $$$$ - doing my part Message-ID: <200002072008.OAA08836@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; types="text/plain,text/html"; boundary="=====================_12733667==_.ALT" Some of my earlier post on the matter of musicians and money may have been interpreted as harsh or as if I was criticizing without offering anything constructive, so I am writing this to let y'all know that the issue of musician's compensation is very important to me and I am doing my part to make the lives of at least a few musician's pretty comfortable.

Among other things, I am a producer for a production company in New York City called Bramson Productions, Inc.  We produce concerts and musical events and book entertainment (big and small) for every conceivable situation.  One of the other partners is my best friend from my Eastman days and, as we are both musicians, we know the needs of musicians and pay our talent extremely well and make sure that they get ever possible perk along the way.

When we book an ensemble we make sure that the contract covers all travel expenses, all accommodations, a generous  per diem, every possible comfort and necessity for the performers to feel as if they are truly something special.  And we get the most amount of money that is humanly possible without going out of business.  Are we millionaires yet?  Nope, but we can sleep well at night and know we have some loyal folks working for us.

Are all agents and producers like this?  NOT A CHANCE!  But we are and it is because we understand what the life of a musician is and we have great respect and fondness for the people we chose to hire.  Please call us or email us through our web page if you do something special and want to be treated accordingly - http://www.bramson.com/  ( this is not an ad, I just figured I'd put my money where my mouth is, so to speak.  I don't like to make a claim unless I can back it up.  We did decide to take on the Galaxy Party Band, so they are now on our site too  :)

Hey, we (on  trombone-l) are musicians so we understand musicians.  More people with these concerns need to get in the business of booking and placing musicians in professional situations.  Would some no talent artist wannabe with money on the brain have the best interest of his musicians at heart?  Don't be stupid, most of these guys are pimps.  I do this work for several reasons 1.   composing doesn't pay well unless you write pop crap (I can't do that).  2.   I get to work with my best friend and have a helluva lot of fun.   3.   I make an appropriate amount of money and that's all I need.   4.   I get to travel all over and meet some great musicians and eat great food  :)

If we as musicians want to be taken care of properly perhaps we have to take care of ourselves.  There is a clothing company started by a couple black guys called F.U.B.U., I'm sure you've seen it.  It stands for "For Us, By Us".  Maybe musicians need to do the same thing.  Don't expect to be taken care of by people whose interests are in making money.

Mike

 From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 13:33:09 -0700 From: "Bryce L. Mecham" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Oregon Audition Message-ID: <389F2C05.1D8197FF@usa.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Does anyone know who won the Oregon Symphony second trombone job? From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 14:48:37 -0600 (CST) From: Donn Schaefer To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Value of two trombones? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A student brought in a couple of horns and asked me for an appraisal. One is a Reynolds Medalist. F att, good slide, only a couple of minor dents. Obvious solder repair, but a decent horn. Impossible to hold due to a poorly placed Trigger. I'm guessing $300? The other is a Couesnon (Paris, Made in France. 59650) Horn is crooked. Some dents. Flattened bell. Fixable He paid $50 for each trombone at a pawn shop. Thanks for any ideas. Donn Schaefer Instructor of Low Brass Middle Tennessee State University From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 14:52:45 -0500 From: Charles To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: salaries Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000207195245.006f4628@totcon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If it was only a matter of supply and demand, why are teacher's salaries so low? According to all reports, there is a tremendous shortage of teachers. My wife has been teaching for thirty years and she JUST reached the $40,000 level. Charlie (the not very passionate amateur) From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 15:12:29 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: salaries Message-ID: <200002072113.PAA15443@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:52 PM 2/7/00 , you wrote: >If it was only a matter of supply and demand, why are teacher's salaries so low? >According to all reports, there is a tremendous shortage of teachers. My wife >has been teaching for thirty years and she JUST reached the $40,000 level. > >Charlie (the not very passionate amateur) The supply of newly trained music teachers is very high! Also, schools need several teachers to teach English, Math, the Sciences, Languages, etc., but generally only one or two in most moderate to small schools. Call some schools of music and get the figures on enrollment in the music ed. department. You'll be surprised and dismayed. Same is true for performers. Here's an example from my own history. In undergrad school we had about 4-5 trombone players per class and about 6 to 10 grad students - that's 22 to 30 players being put out from one school every four years! Multiply that by the number of other reputable schools putting out trombone players and you have a very large output. Go the American Symphony Orchestra league home page and look up orchestras that actually pay a living wage and you'll see that there are very few positions in orchestras compared to the number of potential applicants. Do you think if someone won a spot in one of the U.S.'s second string orchestras that paid in the $32 - 45,000 range they would refuse the position unless the starting salary was raised? Not gonna happen - why, because that guy that won second place was probably just as good! M From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 15:30:39 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: MBennetts@aol.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Mouthpieces - one more time Message-ID: <200002072142.QAA19434@fb01.eng00.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 12:57 PM 2/7/00 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 02/07/00 11:24:07 AM Central Standard Time, >astro@pconline.com writes: > >>Ê A 5G will be MUCH darker than a >>Ê 61/2 AL (which I believe to be an inappropriate mouthpiece for a large bore >>Ê horn anyway). > >2-1/2 months ago I purchased a Conn 88HTO, to supplement my Olds Recording >(.495/.510 bore) which I have been playing with a 6-1/2 AL mouthpiece.Ê To >try to keep as much as possible constant while I became accustomed to this >monster, I am using a 6-1/2 A mouthpiece: identical rim with a more >appropriate shank, I was told. > >Three things have happened in the intervening 2-1/2 months: >1. I have gotten reasonably well acquainted with the Conn: it's the only one >I practice absent a special reason to play the Olds. >2. Through hard work on long tones and similar techniques my usable *upper* >range on the 88H is growing a lot. >3. Despite hard work, etc., etc., I still have no usable pedal range >whatsoever on the 88H.Ê I can actually produce pedal tones more cleanly on >the peashooter, and can barely produce a pedal tone on the Conn. (though the >trigger range clear down through C has developed surprisingly quickly). > >It occurs to me that a different mouthpiece might be a part of the solution, >and I have a couple of questions.Ê (I have to number everything, because I'm >an accountant): >1. What do you all think of the (a) keep the mouthpieces similar vs (b) play >the right mouthpiece for the instrument argument? >2. If trying different mouthpieces for the 88H, what one(s) would you >suggest? I know that my face might not be like yours, so you can't give me a >certain answer. > >FWIW, I play 2nd trombone in symphonic band, will probably play 1st in summer >community band, and play where needed (usually 2nd or bass) in a small R&B >(renaissance & baroque) group. > >Mike Bennett >--------------- > ========================= Maybe a combination of embouchure AND m'pce here... First of all...the reason you can play pedals on your small horn and not on your larger one is because the WAY you play pedals probably requires the resistance of the small horn. This is quite a common problem. You are more than likely just "letting everything go" to play the pedals on the small horn...letting your musculature sag around your moth. On a small horn this will often work, because the HORN (and m'pce) is providing enough resistance to allow the lips to vibrate. It's a habit, and it can be broken. Check out three of my articles on the Online Trombone Journal: http://www.trombone.org/articles/library/outofthecase5-1.asp http://www.trombone.org/articles/library/outofthecase5-2.asp http://www.trombone.org/articles/library/nyletters2.asp Pursue playing your pedals from a secure embouchure position somewhere above them...say a 2cd partial Bb...w/out taking your mouthpiece off your lips. (Breathe through your nose or corners.) Work down to them, using any of the techniques and concepts I outline in those articles, or any others you can dream up. Eventually your embouchure will firm up, and you'll be able to play the pedals BETTER on the larger horn. As far as the m'pce is concerned... As far as m'pces are concerned...a 6 1/2 A has a SERIOUSLY smaller throat and backbore than a 6 1/2 AL. You may feel generally "better" on it w/your 88H than when using your 6 1/2 AL, but again, all you're really doing is substituting resistance in the m'pce for the resistance to which you've become accustomed from your Olds. There's nothing intrinsically WRONG w/ a 6 1/2 A...several of the best trombonists in NY play one, although on smaller equipment than an 88H...but it's going to resist in the lower register compared w/the 6 1/2 AL. Even a 6 1/2 AL is a generally considered little on the small side for an 88H...but it'll do, especially if you're not playing real orchestral stuff. (So will the 6 1/2 A for that matter, if that's what floats your boat...) WhatEVER you're playing, try to get the resistance into your embouchure rather than in the equipment (or in your throat, another common mistake). Later... S. From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 16:09:48 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: astro@pconline.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <200002072142.QAA08562@fb01.eng00.mindspring.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:36 AM 2/7/00 -0600, you wrote: >This thread has been interesting in terms of personal opinions, and it has >lead to some valuable points peripheral to the principal issue. However, >it has not been particularly elucidating in terms of fact. It is easy for >people to speculate on matters such as appropriation and disbursement of >funds and come to an uninformed conclusion about how the money is or is not >being spent. As non-profit and not-for-profit organizations are required >to publish annual reports and make all revenue spending a matter of public >record, I say someone should get a hold of that info, report to the list >and then we could perhaps have a better informed discussion of the matter >without the negative emotional assertions fueled by lack of knowledge and >conclusions drawn despite the lack of facts. > >What might be a very important contribution to our knowledge is being >marred by speculation and assumption. Let's get the facts! > >Mike Coyle > ============================= I wish I believed the facts were gettable, but in my experience they're not. Figures, yes...facts no. Where does the endemic waste of time in offices fit in the figures, for example? How many dollars are used paying people who do as little as they possibly can ? How much is spent on wasteful entertaining ? How much is boondoggled by plumbers and set designers? How much money all over the world is wasted on music directors whose sole talents are charming society ladies and looking "good" on TV? How many guest soloists...I heard one yesterday on PBS...command top dollar but don't play (or sing) well enough to make it in a B'way pit? Generally speaking, the larger the organization, the more nooks and crannies there are into which stray dollars tend to disappear. Unless the management is REALLY on top of it, this is a universal law. The armed forces aren't the only ones to buy hammers for $300 apiece...they're just the biggest. Same principle applies to most "non-profit" organizations. Only the profit motive has any hope at all of ensuring a really well run organization, and only then on a survival basis. This sort of musical organization is usually NOT run on a profit making basis, and maybe that's the root of it all. Maybe if they WERE told to make a profit or fold, they'd be forced to streamline their operations, hire artists and commission works that people WANT to hear, and pay their musicians a living wage. Or maybe they'd just devolve into another tired old Pops orchestra. I don't know... Whatever...I don't share Mike's faith that an "accounting" would tell us much. I'm relatively sure their books are in order, or else they'd be liable to criminal action. The problems I see are NON-criminal, at least as far as the law goes. (That's why they pay those accountants and lawyers the big bucks that should be going to the musicians in the first place.) Don't get me wrong...I'm not reflexively anti-management. For example, I've seen the situation in a couple of scenes in which I've been involved go from very bad to quite good over a period of years. It's just that in MOST of the situations I see, short sighted and greedy management puts the actual product (and producers) way down on the nether end of the totem pole, and that's what this thread is really about. Later... S. Later... From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 16:48:51 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: bmecham@usa.net, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Oregon Audition Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 1:33 PM -0700 2/7/00, Bryce L. Mecham wrote: >Does anyone know who won the Oregon Symphony second trombone job? I believe it was Lisa Albrecht (spelling?), who played with the NY Phil for a season a few years ago. -Doug Yeo From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 16:15:47 -0600 From: "Tom C. Shaddox" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Salaries Message-ID: <389F4413.EC796EA3@fnc.fujitsu.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think amateur players, who give their performance away free, have some responsibility to professional musicians to make sure the audience can hear the difference. I, for one, take this responsibility seriously, and am proud to say I've never been accused of "breaking the rice bowl" of any professional trombonist. I think I'll skip practice today, Tom "happy to come play at your symphony's fund raiser, if it would help" Shaddox Principle trombone, Punxsutawney Phil Richardson PVC Trombones performing artist From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 16:26:09 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <200002072229.QAA23207@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > If you want to change the way things are, you have to make music to >which people WANT to listen. You have to MOVE people. > > AND you have to hustle. > > Wynton Marsalis...like him or not...is a prime example of this in >America today. He's brought the idea of jazz as an art music to the living >rooms of millions who would never have DREAMED of listening to Duke >Ellington or buying a Miles Davis album, and in the process, he's raised >the salaries of ensemble jazz musicians all over the country. > > Any takers??? > Not everyone is interested in making music to which most people want to listen. Marsalis and Roberts and that school are for the most part aping the music and style of the truly great players who originated the art form. People always like watered-down versions of the great ideas of the past - it is easier to grasp and doesn't have all that nasty thinking process involved. Pretty marketing always helps too. What about folks who want to make the music that is part of THEM? What if you are not lucky enough to make the music that the masses find approachable, or slick enough to change what you do to fit the populist fad of the moment? If you are one of these people you simply make your music, get what joy and spiritual growth you need to from it and then do it again. Sure, money for it would be very nice, but that's not what it's about. Personally, I don't give a **** if anyone ever listens to my music. I do it because I can't find anything like it out there and I need it and I need to do it. If that means I have to support myself by other means, then so be it. Ives is a good example of someone who had very little success in his lifetime and was truly saddened by it. Yes, he made a fortune in the insurance business, but he wanted to make music. He did make that music and even though no one wanted to hear it he kept making that music. He is a towering figure in American music of the 20th century now. Will Marcus Roberts, Marsalis, Kenny G, Yanni or John Williams be remembered or considered important influences in a hundred years. I doubt it. Again, I reiterate, if you like doing what also happens to be what the people want to hear, bully for you! If not, do it anyway because it is what you love and what makes you whole. I am not begrudging the Marsalises of our culture, I am just saying that not everyone wants to do what he has done in order to make a buck. Those people aren't lazy or flawed or stupid, they are just being who they are. If you are true to yourself you has no cause for complaint. You may not make a big name for yourself or tons of money, but you'll be satisfying the most important person in your life. Mike Coyle From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 16:48:40 -0600 From: "Tom C. Shaddox" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Is being good looking a requirement for Opera musicians? Message-ID: <389F4BC8.6EB17653@fnc.fujitsu.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Between the second and third acts of a fabulous performance of La Traviata (Italian for The Traviata), my thirteen year old daughter and I went down to the pit and peeked in. Most of the musicians had disappeared up under the stage, but a few were still there. The string bass players were there, smiling bravely as they stoically held up their instruments all during the break, and passing around a small flask of what I assume was electrolyte replacement. A second violin was reading a romance novel (studying for a first spot?) The only other musician still in the pit was the very handsome (according to my daughter) bass trombonist. He was (quietly) playing up a storm. He'd stop and turn the page every little bit, then furiously take off again. My daughter asked what he was doing, and I had to tell her I didn't know. She speculated he might have another gig that night, but I told her that was unlikely. I suggested he might be practicing the third act music to make sure it's perfect for the audience, but she pointed out that as this was a matinee performance, that seemed equally unlikely. I told her that maybe he just REALLY loves to play, but she reminded me that from our balcony seats we'd seen him appear to be doing a crossword during the first act of The Magic Flute. Perhaps he was "blowing in"* some amateur's new bass trombone. Any other guesses as to what he might have been doing? I gotta go practice, Tom Shaddox, 9th chair tenor *don't ask From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 15:53:15 MST From: Dennis Clason To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Mouthpieces - one more time Message-ID: <200002072254.PAA191196@nestor.NMSU.Edu> Addressed to: sabutin@mindspring.com trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu ** Reply to note from sabutin@mindspring.com 02/07/00 3:30pm -0500 > As far as m'pces are concerned...a 6 1/2 A has a SERIOUSLY smaller throat > and backbore than a 6 1/2 AL. You may feel generally "better" on it w/your 88H > than when using your 6 1/2 AL, but again, all you're really doing is > substituting resistance in the m'pce for the resistance to which you've become > accustomed from your Olds. There is a problem with the designations on the 6 1/2 Ax series. Per Bach's specifications, the large shank 6 1/2 A has a bass trombone throat and back- bore. In decreasing order of throat/backbore size come the 6 1/2 AL (large and small shank are identical), 6 1/2 AM (small shank) and 6 1/2 A (small shank). The throat and backbore of the 6 1/2 A are the standard Bach small shank throat and backbore, like a 7C. The problem is that some manufacturers make a large shank 6 1/2 A with the small shank throat and backbore. I don't want to name any names, but one of them goes by three initials. IF we're talking about a large shank Bach 6 1/2 A, then it's (a little) bigger than the 6 1/2 AL. If we're talking about someone's large shank 6 1/2 A knockoff, it could be anything. > WhatEVER you're playing, try to get the resistance into your embouchure > rather than in the equipment (or in your throat, another common mistake). And this is the real bottom line. Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason email: dclason@nmsu.edu Department of Economics / University Statistics Center New Mexico State University Las Cruces, New Mexico USA From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 00:54:30 +0100 From: d.huettenbach@ndh.com (Detlef Huettenbach) To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu ("Trombones and related issues forum") Subject: Fwd: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <1e5nrse.14gxaj2cplkq0M@port224.bonn.ndh.net> Ken wrote: > Rod wrote: > > > Friends: > > > > The truth of the matter is that what musicians do isn't really very > > important in the overall scheme of things... Ken answered: > And that is the root of the problem. The musician's lot will not, > in fact, cannot, improve until public perception changes... Hmm: The 2nd sentence does not hold with the first altogether: As I understand you, you say that it's really not a matter how in veritas important the musicians' job is, but how important it is in the minds of the public. And that way I'm perfectly with you! For a teenager, for example, a Spice Girl concert might be of terrific importance, and if we look back through the ages, a visit of the municipal opera or theatre once was of terrific importance for the bourgeois society: it was a see and let see, a great chance a.o. to fine ladies or gentlemen and a must-be-there for all citizen who were up to the society's top... I don't imply with that that music (or better say musical events) isn't of this importance for the people these days -- quite the contrary. It's only that more and more the orientation is missing, plus: you get music everywhere, especially recorded and computerized one. That playing trombone is really difficult, demanding a full time devotion if you really want to become and stay good, and that it should therefore be payed better, that's what a trombonist knows and thinks. But it values to nothing in the public, when they dont realize that something and what is missing when there's no trombone playing. They need to be convinced that a trombone sounds superior to any substitute, they are in need to be dragged towards recognizing its sound. So, the trombone must get another image, that of a higher-evaluating music when its playing. You might find it cynical, but: an audience's taste is for the major part dictated by what the others give out to love. To do something in favor for a better earning of the trombonists, that's entirely due to the professional trombonists themselves. It means, in my eyes, to work for a better image. And one great, proven method is in fact to find sponsors outside the music realm and to grow with the company's name. It's what the sports cracks did, and it lifted them from the estimation of poor workers and idealists to 'genial artists'. Can't be too bad a recipy. Prost, Detlef. From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:23:03 -0600 From: "Adolphus Sprott" To: "Trombone-L" Subject: Re: Salaries Message-ID: <004a01bf71ca$acc53100$7ae2490c@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree. I am a high school student, and I have been called on a couple of occasions to play at Houston Symphony League parties and the like. They call players like me because we are good enough to make some good music and we are extremely cheap labor. I try my best to make them pay top dollar though. It's not right for people to try and go to the bottom of the barrel. This is not meant to be offensive, because I am a black guy and I've heard my share of racial slurs, but it just seems like high school and college kids are the mexicans of the work force. Once again, not intended to be offensive, just the only way I could think to phrase it. So whenever someone calls me and offers to pay $35 for an hours worth of playing, I nicely tell them to shuv it. I really would be glad to play for free, but I just hate that people come to me simply because they don't want to pay a professional musician a professional wage. Weston Sprott -----Original Message----- From: Tom C. Shaddox To: Trombones and related issues forum. Date: Monday, February 07, 2000 4:18 PM Subject: Re: Salaries >I think amateur players, who give their performance away free, have some >responsibility to professional musicians to make sure the audience can >hear the difference. > >I, for one, take this responsibility seriously, and am proud to say I've >never been accused of "breaking the rice bowl" of any professional >trombonist. > >I think I'll skip practice today, >Tom "happy to come play at your symphony's fund raiser, if it would >help" Shaddox >Principle trombone, Punxsutawney Phil >Richardson PVC Trombones performing artist > > From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:30:09 -0600 From: "Adolphus Sprott" To: "Trombone-L" Subject: Defaye Message-ID: <000b01bf71cb$ad25d220$7ae2490c@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has anyone ever heard the Defaye Concerto for trombone. I was recently playing through this piece, which is extremely difficult, and I was wondering if anyone knew of any recordings of it. I would like to hear how it sounds because I can't even come close to playing it. Weston Sprott From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:24:27 -0500 From: "Jim Dexter" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Stocking Corrosion Message-ID: <200002080039.TAA19237@home.msen.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have two horns with what I believe to be a pretty common ailment - a couple spots of corrosion through the plating at the stocking end of the inner slide. I am imagining that stickiness comes to my slide more quickly than it would without the small corrosion spots. Once the slide - inner and outer - are thoroughly cleaned, and the lubricant added (I have tried Conn, trombotine, slide-o-mix), the slide works very well; just does not seem to last long enough. I have read on earlier posts that these small corrosion spots are not really fixable from an economic and practical standpoint. My questions are: 1.) Does anyone think that using the water spray bottle speeds up enough oxidation process to more quickly slow the slide down? (implying that some oil based lubricant might work better) 2.) Has anyone tried to treat such corrosion spots before? I am thinking specifically of some type of synthetic-oil material that actually sorbs into the underlying brass and deposits say a molecular layer of molybdenum or something. Many of you have seen something similar if you have watched one of those infomercials showing the treatment where an engine can run for so many hours without any oil in it. Thanks Jim Dexter From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 16:33:20 -0800 From: "Bryce McGrew" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Physics Message-ID: <200002080040.QAA15446@smtp5.jps.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have to write a paper for my senior project, and am planning to write about the physics of the brass instruments. This includes things like airstream, lip vibration, types of metals etc. Really anything that is used to play coming from a physical standpoint is good. If anyone has done research or read anything about this kind of thing, I'd appreciate any resources that you might be able to point out to me. I haven't found much on the web, and my library sources at hand are a bit limited. Thanks. Bryce McGrew brycemc@jps.net Trombone players do it in 7 positions :) From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 17:20:04 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Physics Message-ID: <20000208012004.9551.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > I have to write a paper for my senior project, and am planning to >write >about the physics of the brass instruments. Scientific American had a fairly good article about brass instruments. Be careful, though. Iâve also read a lot of, what I would consider to be, misled articles about the physics of brass instruments. Unfortunately, thereâs a vast rift between what something sounds like and what physicists are able to measure on their instruments. You see, physicists like to see measurements and you canât see sounds. DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:22:40 -0500 From: "Steve Beck" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Stocking Corrosion Message-ID: <001d01bf71d2$ffc16b00$1b330923@becks.cl.msu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Jim Dexter To: Trombones and related issues forum. Date: Monday, February 07, 2000 7:40 PM Subject: Stocking Corrosion I have two horns with what I believe to be a pretty common ailment - a couple spots of corrosion through the plating at the stocking end of the inner slide. My questions are: 1.) Does anyone think that using the water spray bottle speeds up enough oxidation process 2.) Has anyone tried to treat such corrosion spots before? Jim, I had the same problem on a slide of mine, several years ago. I took it to the local music store and they buffed it out for me. I use use slide cream and water and the spots never corroded again. -Steve From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 17:24:06 PST From: "Daniel Pliskin" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Stocking Corrosion Message-ID: <20000208012406.96400.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >I have two horns with what I believe to be a pretty common ailment - >a couple spots of corrosion through the plating at the stocking end of >the inner slide. I always take my outer slide off and I hang both halves up to dry, when I'm not using the horn. I find that this keeps the horn from smelling musty. I would also believe that it minimizes corrosion. DanP ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 20:57:54 -0500 From: sabutin@mindspring.com To: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <200002080159.UAA14722@smtp6.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:57 PM 2/7/00 -0600, you wrote: > >> That's just not true. >> >> You may not LIKE our culture...which is certainly your right...but we >> have one. >> > Which one? Perhaps, being a foreigner myself, you could explain to >me exactly what "American" culture is. After living in nine different >states, both rural and urban, I have found little homogeneous thought or >activity other than a tendency toward greed and materialism. That and a >certain "we're better than you" attitude mixed with a near total lack of >awareness of anything outside of this country. In fact, I have found a >frightening lack of awareness of even the history or various regions of THIS >country. Those would be the things that I have found stay pretty constant >from region to region. One thing that we do have is diversity. That sure >does make things interesting. One thing that this country is not is boring. >Don't get me wrong, I like living in the US. But I would be interested in >what is perceived to be OUR culture. We seem, rather, to be a hodge podge >of cultures that varies from place to place, not that this is always bad. ==================================== Our culture: How could you have MISSED it? It's EVERYWHERE. All over TV. All over radio. In the movies In a thousand thousand bookstores and libraries. On the internet. In our schools. In the voices of our millions. Charlie Parker, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Norman Mailer, Charles Ives, Mary Lou Williams, Perry Como, Mario Cuomo, Michael Jordan, Charles Fleischer (Popeye, Betty Boop), Bugs Bunny, Mark Twain, Eudora Welty, Spencer Tracy, Florence Nightingale, Moms Mabley, Lenny Bruce, Oliver Hardy, Oliver Stone, Robert DeNiro, Marlon Brando, Snoop Doggy Dog, Merle Haggard, Lucille Ball, Machito, Malcolm X, John F. Kennedy, Eleanor Roosevelt, Duke Ellington, Louis Armstrong, Preston Sturges, Ernest Hemingway, Billie Holiday, Dinah Washington, Peggy Lee, Babe Ruth...whaddayou, kiddin' me or what??? There aren't enough letters on the internet for me to include the names of all the people who have formed our culture. (I could do an hour on just TROMBONISTS...) S. ============================= > >> In fact, Japan and Europe have embraced large parts of OUR culture much >> more enthusiastically than WE have. >> > Yes, I've noticed. Some of this is good. Some is not. I guess it >just depends on one's perspective. > >> S. >> > Ken >> > > From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 18:23:26 -0700 From: Earl Needham To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Mouthpieces - one more time Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000207182326.008bf4b0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 12:57 PM 2/7/00 EST, MBennetts@aol.com wrote: >2-1/2 months ago I purchased a Conn 88HTO, to supplement my Olds Recording >(.495/.510 bore) which I have been playing with a 6-1/2 AL mouthpiece. To >try to keep as much as possible constant while I became accustomed to this >monster, I am using a 6-1/2 A mouthpiece: identical rim with a more >appropriate shank, I was told. Several millennia ago (actually in the '70's), a 6 1/2 AL was a GREAT mouthpiece for the 88H. It was quite a common combination back then. You might try a 6 1/2 AL instead of the 6 1/2A and see if your pedal range opens up. It probably will, the AL is a little deeper. The 5G will give you an easier low range immediately, as it is a larger diameter. However, it might be interesting to note the old descriptions of the 6 1/2AL as either a "Bass Trombone" mouthpiece, or as one that gave a dark sound, or some such, I can't place the exact phrase just now. The truth is, the 6 1/2AL is PLENTY for the 88H, if it gives you the sound you like. Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34¼25.446' W103¼12.700' (or so) Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:21:33 -0600 From: Chris Waage To: Trombone-L Subject: Re: Mouthpieces - one more time Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If you really want a 6-1/2A or 6-1/2AL which works well on a Conn 88H, spend the extra money and custom order one with a Conn shank taper. There is a difference - take a Remington mouthpiece and compare it with the 6-1/2A shank. Another good option are the UMI Christian Lindberg mouthpieces. They're fairly similar to the Conn Remington, but with a slightly heavier cup. They're about the same size as the 6-1/2AL, maybe slightly larger. The 5GR they ship with the current 88H is pretty good as well. Most importantly, though, is the mating of the shank to the leadpipe. Conn, King and Benge use a slightly different taper than the Bach, Edwards, Shires and Yamaha. I believe the Blessing B88 is about the same as the Conn, FWIW. Chris _____________________________________________ Chris Waage basstbn@waageworks.com Visit the Mouthpiece Exchange at http://www.waageworks.com _____________________________________________ From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:49 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 21:47:07 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: jdexter@home.msen.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Stocking Corrosion Message-ID: <200002080348.VAA14581@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; types="text/plain,text/html"; boundary="=====================_2207852==_.ALT" >2.) Has anyone tried to treat such corrosion spots before?  I am
>thinking specifically of some type of synthetic-oil material that
>actually sorbs into the underlying brass and deposits say a
>molecular layer of molybdenum or something.  Many of you have
>seen something similar if you have watched one of those infomercials
>showing the treatment where an engine can run for so many hours
>without any oil in it.
>
>Thanks
>
>Jim Dexter

Jim,

I recently talked with one of my repairmen about this issue.  He said that replating a slide is a pretty "iffy" thing.  There is a place in Illinois that he said does a very good job most of the time but occasionally even they cannot do it (not sure why).  He sent a client to this place and his slide came back beautiful (according to him, better than before).  Another client asked him to send out his slide for replating and it was destroyed in the process - they ended up putting new inner tubes on for him.  I'd say if you really like the horn and it is worth the money to you, get new inner tubes before the friction from the bare spots start to do real damage to the inside of the outer slide.

I can't imagine any lubricant that would last long enough that wasn't also entirely too viscous for trombone slide use.  I can't imagine putting Slick 50ú or Duralubeú on my slide.  Even the lightest coating would be far to viscous for good slide movement and as it is not water based or soluble water would have no interaction with it as it does with water soluble lubes like Formula 3 or Trombotine.

Mike

Mike
> From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:50 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 21:52:45 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <200002080354.VAA15083@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Our culture: > > How could you have MISSED it? > > It's EVERYWHERE. > Charlie Parker, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Norman Mailer, Charles Ives, Mary >Lou Williams, Perry Como, Mario Cuomo, Michael Jordan, Charles Fleischer >(Popeye, Betty Boop), Bugs Bunny, Mark Twain, Eudora Welty, Spencer Tracy, >Florence Nightingale, Moms Mabley, Lenny Bruce, Oliver Hardy, Oliver Stone, >Robert DeNiro, Marlon Brando, Snoop Doggy Dog, Merle Haggard, Lucille Ball, >Machito, Malcolm X, John F. Kennedy, Eleanor Roosevelt, Duke Ellington, >Louis Armstrong, Preston Sturges, Ernest Hemingway, Billie Holiday, Dinah >Washington, Peggy Lee, Babe Ruth...whaddayou, kiddin' me or what??? > > There aren't enough letters on the internet for me to include the names >of all the people who have formed our culture. > > (I could do an hour on just TROMBONISTS...) > > S. > >============================= Thank you, Sam. You saved me the trouble of replying to this one :) I too am a fan of American culture and find it silly when people say that only Europeans have culture. Ay, spend some time traveling through Europe outside the large metro areas - you think we have a strangle-hold on provinciality and crassness? Not a chance ;) Mike From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:50 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:32:34 -0500 From: Dave Burch To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Wet lip versus dry lip Message-ID: <389F9C62.5830E21F@fuse.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear listers, Did anyone ever win the wet-lip-versus-dry-lip debate? I've played with two wet lips ever since my year of college trombone study. My teacher was a Donald Reinhart advocate, and Reinhart liked wet lip playing to facilitate minute adjustments of the non-anchor lip (I don't guarantee that I remember this exactly right, but that's what I recall). Well, I've been overhauling my embouchure for the last year, and for a week now I've been experimenting with dry lips. My lower lip always gets beat up by a long hard rehearsal, and I've theorized that allowing it to roam free over the wet mouthpiece rim allows it to fall too low, so that the rim presses my lip into the sharp edges of the lower teeth and bruises it. I've combined the dry lips with Joe Alessi's advice to position the lower lip on the mouthpiece first, placing the lower lip high enough that any mouthpiece pressure will be applied safely against the base of the lower teeth. Tonight, I played a 2 1/2 hour big band rehearsal, of which 1 1/2 hours was on the lead book, in this manner. I have never come home ready to practice some more, but tonight I did. It feels great. So, I ask: Is there any concensus these days about playing wet or dry? -- @%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@ ------ Dave Burch ------ ---- Hamilton, Ohio ----- -- daveburch@fuse.net -- Church and community trombonist, baritone hornist, recorderist, choral singer After Hours Big Band Cincinnati Brass Band at http://cincinnati.brassband.com Hamilton-Fairfield Symphony Chorale (and sometimes Orchestra) at http://www.hfso.org Senior programmer/analyst, Mercy Health Partners @%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@ From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:50 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 21:32:04 -0800 From: Larry White To: astro@pconline.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Musicians, salaries + waste Message-ID: <389FAA54.1EEBAF96@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hear, Hear, Well said Mike. L White Mike Coyle wrote: > This thread has been interesting in terms of personal opinions, and it has > lead to some valuable points peripheral to the principal issue. However, > it has not been particularly elucidating in terms of fact. It is easy for > people to speculate on matters such as appropriation and disbursement of > funds and come to an uninformed conclusion about how the money is or is not > being spent. As non-profit and not-for-profit organizations are required > to publish annual reports and make all revenue spending a matter of public > record, I say someone should get a hold of that info, report to the list > and then we could perhaps have a better informed discussion of the matter > without the negative emotional assertions fueled by lack of knowledge and > conclusions drawn despite the lack of facts. > > What might be a very important contribution to our knowledge is being > marred by speculation and assumption. Let's get the facts! > > Mike Coyle From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:50 2000 Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 22:58:38 -0700 From: "Doug Crane" To: Subject: Birth Announcement(s) Message-ID: <023d01bf71f9$8bb5b500$4ad85da6@998> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ann & Doug are proud to announce the arrival of Alexander Jacob and Evan Douglas Crane. Alexander came into the world at 11:31 a.m., February 7, 2000 weighing 5 lb. 12 oz. and measuring 19 1/2 inches long. Evan immediately followed at 11:32 a.m. weighing 4 lbs. 14 oz. and measuring 19 3/4 inches long. Ann and the children are all resting comfortably. They are tentatively scheduled to be released from the hospital as early as this Thursday or Friday. Of special note is that Doug did not pass out as the babies were being delivered. Please join us in welcoming them! Doug & Ann Crane dcrane@rmi.net Volunteer Jazz DJ, KUVO Denver 89.3 FM (The 5th most listened to jazz station in the U.S.) Colorado Wind Ensemble Signature Brass Quintet Pandaemonium Big Band From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:50 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 22:02:19 -0800 From: Larry White To: Adolphus Sprott Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Salaries Message-ID: <389FB16B.C25095DF@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You say you are a high school student and you get asked to play for thirty five bucks for an hours worth of playing. You also say you want to make top dollar. My question is if you make top dollar where do you go from there? That is when you have experience and are worth top dollar. Have you ever heard of apprenticing? This is in fact, IMHO what you are getting the privilege of doing. I only hope that you are also getting something out of attending rehersals and not just expecting to receive some financial remuneration. Don't forget, unless I have missed something, you have many years ahead of you and you are at the very bottom of the learning 'scale'. We all hope to learn something new each day, and I would hope that you will as well, for many years to come. But don't, please don't insult those who have more years behind an instrument than you have in total years and expect to be paid the same as them (top dollar). Please note I am not being critical, I just think that one should walk before they run, learn how to swim before taking a big dive off the 30 metre board. Just MHO. Larry White Adolphus Sprott wrote: > I agree. I am a high school student, and I have been called on a couple of > occasions to play at Houston Symphony League parties and the like. They > call players like me because we are good enough to make some good music and > we are extremely cheap labor. I try my best to make them pay top dollar > though. It's not right for people to try and go to the bottom of the > barrel. This is not meant to be offensive, because I am a black guy and > I've heard my share of racial slurs, but it just seems like high school and > college kids are the mexicans of the work force. Once again, not intended > to be offensive, just the only way I could think to phrase it. So whenever > someone calls me and offers to pay $35 for an hours worth of playing, I > nicely tell them to shuv it. I really would be glad to play for free, but I > just hate that people come to me simply because they don't want to pay a > professional musician a professional wage. > > Weston Sprott > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom C. Shaddox > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Date: Monday, February 07, 2000 4:18 PM > Subject: Re: Salaries > > >I think amateur players, who give their performance away free, have some > >responsibility to professional musicians to make sure the audience can > >hear the difference. > > > >I, for one, take this responsibility seriously, and am proud to say I've > >never been accused of "breaking the rice bowl" of any professional > >trombonist. > > > >I think I'll skip practice today, > >Tom "happy to come play at your symphony's fund raiser, if it would > >help" Shaddox > >Principle trombone, Punxsutawney Phil > >Richardson PVC Trombones performing artist > > > > From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:50 2000 Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 23:18:46 -0700 From: Larry & Carol Bronisz To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Birth Announcement(s) Message-ID: <4.1.20000207231651.00c52270@mail.trail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:58 PM 2/7/00 -0700, Doug Crane wrote: >Ann & Doug are proud to announce the arrival of Alexander Jacob and Evan >Douglas Crane. >Of special note is that Doug did not pass out as the babies were being delivered. Perhaps he was circular breathing? - Larry P.S. Congratulations! From ???@??? Tue Feb 08 08:00:50 2000 Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 00:26:20 -0600 From: Jeff Albert To: eljaywhite@telus.net Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Salaries Message-ID: <389FB708.2A1D2678@bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I see your point about a high school student not warranting top dollar, BUT my understanding of Mr. Sprott's post was that he feels that it is wrong of him to do work for a minimal fee that should go to professionals at the appropriate wage, and I applaud him for that. It would make sense that a symphony league, or whatever the case may be, should be interested in supporting professional musicians of all types, not just the ones in their orchestra. I doubt that spending $200 on a group of high school students, as opposed to $1000 for a group of professionals would really have that great an effect on their bottom line. I firmly believe in apprenticeship, and appreciate the opportunities that I had to perform when I was in high school, but I was not taking jobs from professionals by playing for less. I was playing for our neighborhood parties, and filling in for pros when they were unavailable. Now that I make my living playing trombone, I have a great appreciation for the up coming musicians that respect that. Sorry, I'm rambling. Jeff Larry White wrote: > You say you are a high school student and you get asked to play for thirty five > bucks for an hours worth of playing. You also say you want to make top dollar. > My question is if you make top dol