TROMBONE-L Digest 1575 Topics covered in this issue include: 1) I was tortured.... by Douglas Yeo 2) Linda Yeo plays Ewazen Concerto by Douglas Yeo 3) Re: Octave jumping by Bob Koester 4) Name for tasteless players: Re: Octave jumping by Donn Schaefer 5) RE: trombone-l (removable f-trigger) by BrianB@PR-CN.COM 6) RE: I was tortured.... by "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> 7) Re: Octave jumping by David Buckley 8) Re: I was tortured.... by David Buckley 9) RE: I was tortured.... by Douglas Yeo 10) Re: I was tortured.... by Douglas Yeo 11) RE: trombone-l by "Hugo García Sampedro" 12) Re: I was tortured.... by "Stewart M. Crane" 13) RE: I was tortured.... by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 14) Re: I was tortured.... by Douglas Yeo 15) removable f-attachments by Gary Sloane 16) Re: I was tortured.... by "Gary D. Maxwell" 17) RE: Sousa scores (and pitches and shoots trap and rides horses an d boxes bare knuckle...) by richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL 18) Audition tapes (was: I was tortured) by Mike Coyle 19) Re: Sousa scores by Douglas Yeo 20) Re: I was tortured.... by Mike Coyle 21) Re: I was tortured.... by PAUL LUKAS 22) RE: Octave jumping by "Jim O'Briant" 23) Re: I was tortured.... by Douglas Yeo 24) Re: Book titles by "Adrian Drover" 25) Re: Big Band scores by "Adrian Drover" 26) Self Esteem, Music, and the Like by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 27) I was tortured...self-esteem? by Charles 28) Re: Self Esteem, Music, and the Like by "Gary D. Maxwell" 29) Re: I was tortured by Neobopr@aol.com 30) Re: I was tortured...self-esteem? by "Gary D. Maxwell" 31) RE: Leadership Institute: Jazz and Libraries #2 by "Johnson, Scott (TBS)" 32) Re: I was tortured...self-esteem? by Mike Coyle 33) Re: Self Esteem, Music, and the Like by "Rodney Ellard" 34) self esteem by Mike Coyle 35) Re: I was tortured.... by "Chuck De Paolo" 36) Re: Self Esteem, Music, and the Like by Mike Coyle 37) RE: Self Esteem, Music, and the Like by "DOWDY, KENNETH S" 38) Re: Torture by MBennetts@aol.com 39) Help! I could be torturing you! by JennWhaa@aol.com 40) Re: Octave jumping by hal-starkey@webtv.net (Hal Starkey) 41) Re: I was tortured.... by Dennis Clason 42) Re: removable f-attachments by " Dan Cloutier" 43) Re: Help! I could be torturing you! by Dennis Clason 44) People Who Play (Yuck) Other Instruments by MBennetts@aol.com 45) Re: I was tortured.... by Angie Brunk 46) Re: Help! I could be torturing you! by NHSGrizzly16@aol.com 47) Re: I was tortured.... - clarification by "Chuck De Paolo" 48) Re: Help! I could be torturing you! by Beth Lewis 49) New horn for sale. by Emil & Cynthia Orth 50) Teacher compliments, was: Help! I could be torturing you! by "Michael W. Millar & Dava S. Millar" 51) Re: I was tortured.... by Amtrombone@aol.com 52) Re: Self Esteem, Music, and the Like by Amtrombone@aol.com 53) Slide Hampton with Dayton Jazz Orchestra by Dave Burch 54) Re: Octave jumping by TonyC789@aol.com 55) Re: I was tortured.... by "John Lavoie" 56) Re: I was tortured.... by "Gary Maxwell" 57) torture by "Adolphus Sprott" 58) Bach 42 and Conn 8, 88 players - opinions needed! by Mike Coyle 59) Abram Lincoln by Eugene Grissom 60) Francois Huybrechts by Servo149@aol.com 61) The Naperville Area Trombone Ensemble by "Tom Izzo" 62) Standards by Douglas Yeo 63) Re: Help! I could be torturing you! by JennWhaa@aol.com 64) RE: I was tortured.... by Earl Needham 65) ONLY a senior? and self esteem... by Earl Needham 66) Playing too fast by FOpal@aol.com 67) Philip Jones' death by Mike Coyle 68) Re: I was tortured.... by Larry White 69) Re: ONLY a senior? and self esteem... by "Kenneth Dowdy" 70) Re: Help! I could be torturing you! by Dave Burch 71) Re: Playing too fast by "James Yardley" 72) Re: I was tortured.... by Earl Needham 73) Re: Torture by "Paul D. Kemp, Jr." 74) Re: Playing too fast by "Ben Gurton" 75) Re: I was tortured by "Robert Holland" 76) Re: Assistantships/Scholarships by karl g hinterbichler 77) Hello all by "Nicholas Peter Hayes" 78) Re: Philip Jones' death by "Nicholas Peter Hayes" 79) Re: Help! I could be torturing you! by Angie Brunk From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:09 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:54:07 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: I was tortured.... Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Call Amnesty International, the Red Cross, the United Nations. Get the lawyers! Call out the National Guard! Somebody PLEASE help me! I was tortured yesterday. VERY cruel and VERY unusual punishment... For MANY hours. NEVER in my life have I been subjected to such pain and suffering. I may never be the same. I escaped, though, and lived to tell the story. So here it is... All afternoon yesterday, I was a member of the Boston Symphony audition committee hearing audition tapes for the BSO's fourth/utility trumpet vacancy. We heard 92 tapes. It was torture. PURE and UTTER TORTURE. I cannot tell you how many tapes we advanced (that information is confidential, but readers should know that our audition system allows the BSO to advance directly to the first live round - without a tape - players who have jobs in major orchestras and those who have finished in the finals of previous BSO auditions for the same instrument - this we have already done. Our system also allows anyone whose tape was rejected to come and play live anyway, but they are strongly discouraged from doing so.), but it was fewer than all my fingers. I cannot tell you how many I personally voted for, but if I were a fish, you could count them on my toes. What I CAN pass on to you from this horrible experience is this (I know this is a trombone list, but I think the lessons from yesterday's experience with trumpet players apply universally): 1) LISTEN to your tape before you send it in. I'm convinced that 99% of those tapes we heard were not listened to before being sent in. If the person listening to the tape had listened to it first, it never would have been sent in. 2) However, if you DID listen to it and send it in, most of you need a SERIOUS ear cleaning as to what is good. See my FAQ on performance standards at http://www.yeodoug.com/standards.html for a starter. If you don't know what good is, you're in the wrong business. 3) Realize that this tape is REALLY, REALLY important. Most of the playing we heard was simply pathetic. Dreadful. Embarrassing. When you audition for the Boston Symphony, why in the world do you think that such poor playing would actually have a chance? Did you do it for the "experience" - if so, that was a waste of postage and of our time - you can get the "experience" by just making the tape; sending it in was an exercise in wishful thinking. 4) The tape quality was uniformly poor. When our tape guidelines which we send out ask that you have your maximum volume peak at 0 db, why don't you do that? Why is nearly every tape oversaturated? 5) MAKE YOUR FIRST EXCERPT PERFECT. It's a no brainer. If your first excerpt isn't great, the committee isn't going to be listening to your fifth excerpt. 6) PLAY IN TUNE. The first excerpt required on the tape was the call to Beethoven Leonore Overture #3. 4 notes. B flat arpeggios. 95% of players couldn't play it in tune. Unbelievable. 7) PLAY WITH GOOD RHYTHM. The committee knows that when you make a tape, you can record the excerpt 1 million times in order to get a good one. So WHY in the world would you send a tape with something that is not correct rhythmically? Given that the recorded quality is so poor on most tapes, all we can really tell is whether you're playing in tune and in time. If you don't have those two covered, you're not getting an invitation to the live round. I know, I know, I sound like a broken record. But it NEVER ceases to amaze me how many people actually think their playing is at a very high level when it is really at a very low level. Many people's ears must simply be trained to hear themselves as being "good" - and they need a box of Q-tips. We WANT to hire a great player. We listened to every tape with anticipation that maybe this was the ONE who would end up as a colleague. But in nearly every case we were sorely disappointed. Please, players, do not fall behind the "I can't make a good tape" excuse. It's not that difficult. It doesn't have to be CD quality. We ask that tapes include information on the kind of equipment used (recorder and microphones). Sometimes the best equipment made the worst tape - it was obvious when a person didn't spend enough time with the setup, level adjustment, room choice, etc. And the professional studios people hired often made absolutely dreadful tapes (about 20% of the tapes we heard were professionally done). But more than the quality of the tape is the quality of playing. The scary thing about what happened yesterday is the depressing thought that people actually sent in tapes they thought had a chance! Wow... I've written about this extensively in my website in my big 14 chapter article on taking symphony auditions at http://www.yeodoug.com/yeoauditions.html I don't need to repeat it all here on the list, read it yourself if you're interested. I'd better call the doctor, I think I need some more pain killer.... -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:10 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:31:20 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Linda Yeo plays Ewazen Concerto Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Our oldest daughter, Linda, who is a junior bass trombone performance major at Wheaton College (Wheaton, IL) will be performing the first two movements of the Eric Ewazen Bass Trombone Concerto with the Wheaton College Symphony Orchestra in concert this Friday, January 21, at 4:30 PM in Edman Memorial Chapel. The concert will feature the four winners of the Wheaton College Concerto competition (piano, voice, violin, bass trombone). Naturally the proud papa and mama will be there as well (Wheaton is my undergraduate alma mater,and I won this same competition 25 years ago...), cheering on the next generation. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:10 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:51:03 -0600 From: Bob Koester To: TROMBONE-L@LISTS.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Octave jumping Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000119075103.0071cf5c@mail.spidertel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:36 PM 1/18/2000 -0500, you wrote: Good morning - Lot's of excellent comments on this subject. Although most of us have either done this in the past, or on some occasions still do, the correct approach is to play what's written to the absolute best of your ability. Doug Yeo astutely pointed out that George Roberts actually played things higher rather than lower if it made more musical sense. I've generally found over the years that when there's a check on the line you are better advised to follow the instructions...that means play what's written. I can remember a couple of occasions when I thought something would sound better played down. So I did. The conductor's response (in one particularly embarrassing situation) was "hey @#$ %^&*, if the #@$%^ arranger had wanted that ^%### note down a $%@^$ octave he'd have !@$@% written it there. Great way to start a three hour rehearsal. Live and learn. Having said all that, the bass trombone range was expanded to much of it's current application by guys experimenting. One of the earliest guys to explore the extreme low range was the late '60's early '70's bass trombone player at what was then the International Hotel in Las Vegas named Marty Harrell. Marty had a killer low range and began using it in all sorts of contexts. Next thing you know, the show arrangers were asking for and writing those notes. So, evolution was in a sense served by someone being a smart aleck. Nonetheless, taste and grace must prevail. Practice those notes so you have them in your repetoire. Experiment with them in appropriate places. But, play it where it's written (for the most part :-)), and leave the hanging over to the lead trumpet player. Have fun, Bob >Question that's been bugging me awhile as a music major playing bass >trombone: >I know numerous other bass trombone players, some who are in school with >me and some who aren't, who make it a habit to drop passages in music (be >it marching, 'bone choir, concert band, etc.) down at least an octave, >without regard for position in the chord, blend with the ensemble, or >space between voices. Anything written in or above the staff is fair game >to be transferred to the pedal register, not to mention the last note, >which MUST be dropped below wherever it is written...because it's the last >note. In light of all the list discussions about "authenticity", >"respecting the composer's intent", not to mention "finding one's own >voice as a musician", I am concerned that too many bass trombonists are >concerned with showing off than actually rendering any sort of meaningful >music. (And yes, I have read Douglas Yeo's article about "Me, Myself and >I" on his webpage; it's an excellent article for those who haven't read >it.) What are some other opinions on this topic? >David Proctor > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >William David Proctor--Music Education--Bass Trombone--University of >Tennessee, Knoxville > *129th Army National Guard Band--Nashville, TN >*UT Wind Ensemble-UT Civic Orchestra-Pride of the Southland Marching > Band-Trombone Choir-Christian Student Center-Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia >"Always give thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our >Lord Jesus Christ." Ephesians 5:20 >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > > > _______________________ bob koester mediation services, inc. bkoester@fixbusinessdebt.com From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:11 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:42:30 -0600 (CST) From: Donn Schaefer To: David Proctor Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Name for tasteless players: Re: Octave jumping Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I know a guy who would drop everything one or two octaves, even on legit gigs. Our special name for this player was . . . the Butcher! On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, David Proctor wrote: > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:36:04 -0500 (EST) > From: David Proctor > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Octave jumping > > Question that's been bugging me awhile as a music major playing bass > trombone: > I know numerous other bass trombone players, some who are in school with > me and some who aren't, who make it a habit to drop passages in music (be > it marching, 'bone choir, concert band, etc.) down at least an octave, > without regard for position in the chord, blend with the ensemble, or > space between voices. Anything written in or above the staff is fair game > to be transferred to the pedal register, not to mention the last note, > which MUST be dropped below wherever it is written...because it's the last > note. In light of all the list discussions about "authenticity", > "respecting the composer's intent", not to mention "finding one's own > voice as a musician", I am concerned that too many bass trombonists are > concerned with showing off than actually rendering any sort of meaningful > music. (And yes, I have read Douglas Yeo's article about "Me, Myself and > I" on his webpage; it's an excellent article for those who haven't read > it.) What are some other opinions on this topic? > David Proctor > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > William David Proctor--Music Education--Bass Trombone--University of > Tennessee, Knoxville > *129th Army National Guard Band--Nashville, TN > *UT Wind Ensemble-UT Civic Orchestra-Pride of the Southland Marching > Band-Trombone Choir-Christian Student Center-Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia > "Always give thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our > Lord Jesus Christ." Ephesians 5:20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:11 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:24:23 -0500 From: BrianB@PR-CN.COM To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: trombone-l (removable f-trigger) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > < What do you all think about horns with removable f-trigger > mechanisms, such > as Conn's 89H? If there's nothing wrong with them why doesn't > everybody use them?>> I guess some may use convertible horns to eliminate the restriction in airflow that a valve causes, while still having the option of using the valve section if required by a part. However, having said that, most valves in current designs are not that restrictive. The other reason is to save weight, which is more of an issue where you have to carry the horn, such as marching band. In this situation, you might want to consider the price of a second, inexpensive horn for marching versus the price difference you will pay for the convertible model. A second horn for marching will also, IMO, keep you from risking your concert horn in what can sometimes be a "hostile environment". Brian From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:11 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:23:14 -0600 From: "Guion, David" <8guion@jmls.edu> To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: I was tortured.... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Doug Yeo wrote: > All afternoon yesterday, I was a member of the Boston Symphony > audition committee hearing audition tapes for the BSO's > fourth/utility trumpet vacancy. > > We heard 92 tapes. > > It was torture. PURE and UTTER TORTURE. > The second time I went to an International Trombone Workshop, lo these many moons ago, one of the presentations consisted of playing the audition tapes sent in for the Boston Symphony Orchestra bass trombone opening. We were told that there was only one acceptable tape that was submitted and that that person (Doug, for people slow on the uptake) had won the position. Let's see. Rhythm, tempo, and intonation were erratic. One tape sounded like a kazoo. One sounded like it was recorded in a shower stall. One of them ended on a note that splattered as badly as a watermelon dropped from the roof of a high-rise building. And so on. We in the audience thought the whole thing was hilarious, but of course we were forewarned that the tapes would all be bad. Gee, Doug. It must be just the BSO. I don't remember hearing anyone else complaining. (So long, I gotta duck.) ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ David Guion, Cataloger John Marshall Law School 315 S. Plymouth Ct. Chicago, IL 60604 Voice: (312) 427-2737 x 552 Fax; (312) 427-8307 "Outside of a dog, books are a man's best friend; inside of a dog, it's too dark to read"--Groucho Marx ^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^ From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:11 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:19:14 -0500 From: David Buckley To: davidpr1@utkux.utcc.utk.edu Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Octave jumping Message-ID: <3885D5F2.F60C3495@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The best answer is "It depends". Depends on the quality of the music. In my brass band the bass trom and the sop always had the option to go down or up respectively an octave. I always had the option to say No if I didn't like it. But would not likely ever do this in orchestra. In concert band I often ask our 3rd trom to go down an octave on final notes. Adds another colour. Regards. Dave. David Proctor wrote: > Question that's been bugging me awhile as a music major playing bass > trombone: > I know numerous other bass trombone players, some who are in school with > me and some who aren't, who make it a habit to drop passages in music (be > it marching, 'bone choir, concert band, etc.) down at least an octave, > without regard for position in the chord, blend with the ensemble, or > space between voices. Anything written in or above the staff is fair game > to be transferred to the pedal register, not to mention the last note, > which MUST be dropped below wherever it is written...because it's the last > note. In light of all the list discussions about "authenticity", > "respecting the composer's intent", not to mention "finding one's own > voice as a musician", I am concerned that too many bass trombonists are > concerned with showing off than actually rendering any sort of meaningful > music. (And yes, I have read Douglas Yeo's article about "Me, Myself and > I" on his webpage; it's an excellent article for those who haven't read > it.) What are some other opinions on this topic? > David Proctor > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > William David Proctor--Music Education--Bass Trombone--University of > Tennessee, Knoxville > *129th Army National Guard Band--Nashville, TN > *UT Wind Ensemble-UT Civic Orchestra-Pride of the Southland Marching > Band-Trombone Choir-Christian Student Center-Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia > "Always give thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our > Lord Jesus Christ." Ephesians 5:20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:11 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:29:01 -0500 From: David Buckley To: yeo@yeodoug.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: I was tortured.... Message-ID: <3885D83D.7B0A8E68@sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just read an article outlining some research that said that the incompetent in the world usually don't realise that they are incompetent and happily go through life thinking they are doing just fine. Sounds like you have proven the point. Our brass band conductor also did his best last night to prove the same point. Regards. Dave. Douglas Yeo wrote: > Call Amnesty International, the Red Cross, the United Nations. Get > the lawyers! Call out the National Guard! Somebody PLEASE help me! > > I was tortured yesterday. > > VERY cruel and VERY unusual punishment... > > For MANY hours. > > NEVER in my life have I been subjected to such pain and suffering. I > may never be the same. > > I escaped, though, and lived to tell the story. > > So here it is... > > All afternoon yesterday, I was a member of the Boston Symphony > audition committee hearing audition tapes for the BSO's > fourth/utility trumpet vacancy. > > We heard 92 tapes. > > It was torture. PURE and UTTER TORTURE. > > I cannot tell you how many tapes we advanced (that information is > confidential, but readers should know that our audition system allows > the BSO to advance directly to the first live round - without a tape > - players who have jobs in major orchestras and those who have > finished in the finals of previous BSO auditions for the same > instrument - this we have already done. Our system also allows anyone > whose tape was rejected to come and play live anyway, but they are > strongly discouraged from doing so.), but it was fewer than all my > fingers. I cannot tell you how many I personally voted for, but if I > were a fish, you could count them on my toes. > > What I CAN pass on to you from this horrible experience is this (I > know this is a trombone list, but I think the lessons from > yesterday's experience with trumpet players apply universally): > > 1) LISTEN to your tape before you send it in. I'm convinced that 99% > of those tapes we heard were not listened to before being sent in. > If the person listening to the tape had listened to it first, it > never would have been sent in. > > 2) However, if you DID listen to it and send it in, most of you need > a SERIOUS ear cleaning as to what is good. See my FAQ on performance > standards at http://www.yeodoug.com/standards.html for a starter. If > you don't know what good is, you're in the wrong business. > > 3) Realize that this tape is REALLY, REALLY important. Most of the > playing we heard was simply pathetic. Dreadful. Embarrassing. When > you audition for the Boston Symphony, why in the world do you think > that such poor playing would actually have a chance? Did you do it > for the "experience" - if so, that was a waste of postage and of our > time - you can get the "experience" by just making the tape; sending > it in was an exercise in wishful thinking. > > 4) The tape quality was uniformly poor. When our tape guidelines > which we send out ask that you have your maximum volume peak at 0 > db, why don't you do that? Why is nearly every tape oversaturated? > > 5) MAKE YOUR FIRST EXCERPT PERFECT. It's a no brainer. If your > first excerpt isn't great, the committee isn't going to be listening > to your fifth excerpt. > > 6) PLAY IN TUNE. The first excerpt required on the tape was the call > to Beethoven Leonore Overture #3. 4 notes. B flat arpeggios. 95% > of players couldn't play it in tune. Unbelievable. > > 7) PLAY WITH GOOD RHYTHM. The committee knows that when you make a > tape, you can record the excerpt 1 million times in order to get a > good one. So WHY in the world would you send a tape with something > that is not correct rhythmically? Given that the recorded quality is > so poor on most tapes, all we can really tell is whether you're > playing in tune and in time. If you don't have those two covered, > you're not getting an invitation to the live round. > > I know, I know, I sound like a broken record. But it NEVER ceases to > amaze me how many people actually think their playing is at a very > high level when it is really at a very low level. Many people's ears > must simply be trained to hear themselves as being "good" - and they > need a box of Q-tips. > > We WANT to hire a great player. We listened to every tape with > anticipation that maybe this was the ONE who would end up as a > colleague. But in nearly every case we were sorely disappointed. > > Please, players, do not fall behind the "I can't make a good tape" > excuse. It's not that difficult. It doesn't have to be CD quality. > We ask that tapes include information on the kind of equipment used > (recorder and microphones). Sometimes the best equipment made the > worst tape - it was obvious when a person didn't spend enough time > with the setup, level adjustment, room choice, etc. And the > professional studios people hired often made absolutely dreadful > tapes (about 20% of the tapes we heard were professionally done). > But more than the quality of the tape is the quality of playing. The > scary thing about what happened yesterday is the depressing thought > that people actually sent in tapes they thought had a chance! Wow... > > I've written about this extensively in my website in my big 14 > chapter article on taking symphony auditions at > http://www.yeodoug.com/yeoauditions.html I don't need to repeat it > all here on the list, read it yourself if you're interested. > > I'd better call the doctor, I think I need some more pain killer.... > > -Doug Yeo > ********************************************** > * Douglas Yeo * > * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * > * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * > * yeo@yeodoug.com * > * http://www.yeodoug.com * > * <>< * > ********************************************** > From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:12 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:35:17 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: 8guion@jmls.edu, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: I was tortured.... Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 9:23 AM -0600 1/19/00, Guion, David wrote: >The second time I went to an International Trombone Workshop, lo these many >moons ago, one of the presentations consisted of playing the audition tapes >sent in for the Boston Symphony Orchestra bass trombone opening. We were >told that there was only one acceptable tape that was submitted and that >that person (Doug, for people slow on the uptake) had won the position. Yes, that is true. There were 54 tapes submitted to the BSO audition in 1984. 9 people were invited directly to the first live round, I had to make a tape (even though I was in the Baltimore Sym). The tapes David spoke about were from a masterclass John Marcellus gave. I gave him the tape. Actually, they were not from the Boston Sym audition, but from the Baltimore Symphony audition when Randy Campora won the position. I was not on the committee, but was present at the auditions. After the audition was done, and names taken off the tapes, the personnel manager gave me permission to make a "party tape" of the worst of the worst excerpts submitted. I have no idea who those people were but as David said: > >Let's see. Rhythm, tempo, and intonation were erratic. One tape sounded like >a kazoo. One sounded like it was recorded in a shower stall. One of them >ended on a note that splattered as badly as a watermelon dropped from the >roof of a high-rise building. And so on. It was truly amazing. Remember, these were tapes that were actually SENT IN! I'll put my BSO audition tape up on my website sometime in the next few weeks, and also some of those unbelievable excerpts of which David spoke. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:12 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:10:13 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: I was tortured.... Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I should mention one other very important thing about the BSO tape audition procedure. Lest you think that the audition committee is bunch of hardnoses, it only takes ONE VOTE to get advanced from the tape to the live round. No majority, no 2/3's, just ONE VOTE. The minimal possible standard. The committee yesterday had 3 trumpeters, 2 trombone players and one horn player. ONE VOTE... -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:12 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:12:39 -0300 From: "Hugo García Sampedro" To: "Aaron Roth" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: trombone-l Message-ID: <01bf6298$01dbdb40$LocalHost@workstation> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> Hi Yes, at a certain point it is more an idiosyncratic matter than a technical or musical one. -Hugo From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:12 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:24:18 -0500 From: "Stewart M. Crane" To: "Doug Yeo" , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: I was tortured.... Message-ID: <006201bf629a$ed0e82a0$0101a8c6@stewart> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Place tongue in cheek before continuing. But Doug, did the players who made those tapes FEEL GOOD about their playing? And who are you and the other members of the BSO audition committee to say what's good and what's bad? Each person is entitled to define for him/her self what is good trumpet playing, and for the audition committee to tell that person that their playing is not good when the player believes that it is, is to seriously damage the player's self-esteem. Heaven forbid that we should do that! :-) Stewart Crane Serious PS: All the self-esteem garbage that has been taught in our schools is starting to smell. Doug just got a snootful of it. From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:13 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:37:05 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: I was tortured.... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain This whole thing has me greatly confused. Just what the heck IS good trumpet playing? Ken Dowdy > -----Original Message----- > From: Stewart M. Crane [SMTP:smcrane@esper.com] > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 10:24 AM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Re: I was tortured.... > > Place tongue in cheek before continuing. > > But Doug, did the players who made those tapes FEEL GOOD about their > playing? And who are you and the other members of the BSO audition > committee > to say what's good and what's bad? Each person is entitled to define for > him/her self what is good trumpet playing, and for the audition committee > to > tell that person that their playing is not good when the player believes > that it is, is to seriously damage the player's self-esteem. Heaven forbid > that we should do that! :-) > > Stewart Crane > > Serious PS: All the self-esteem garbage that has been taught in our > schools > is starting to smell. Doug just got a snootful of it. > > > From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:13 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:43:35 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: I was tortured.... Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Steward Carter wrote: >Place tongue in cheek before continuing. > >But Doug, did the players who made those tapes FEEL GOOD about their >playing? Stewart, you are EXACTLY right about this, and I've been railing about this in our school system. Once something gets pronounced "good" simply because you "do" it (with no consideration given to whether or not it IS "good") we are down a slippery slope. We actually have a math curriculum in our elementary schools which does not consider 2+2=5 as long as the student felt good about the "process." Process? What about the answer? Try designing a bridge when 2+2=5..... Would YOU drive over it? -Doug ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:13 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:44:59 -0800 From: Gary Sloane To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: removable f-attachments Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 8:46 PM -0300 1/18/00, Hugo García Sampedro wrote: ><What do you all think about horns with removable f-trigger mechanisms, such >as Conn's 89H? If there's nothing wrong with them why doesn't everybody use >them?>> > >Hi >I can't answer for others but in my case the improvement on valve designs >make that system at a certain point unnecessary. Now that the topic has come up and we're going in the direction of "unnecessary" -- especially because everybody with a .547 horn will simply keep the f-attachment on if given the choice -- it's time for me to offer a lovely 89H and a King SilverSonic 4B (Anniversary Editition) straight tenor for sale. The 89H is in terrific condition and plays beautifully, although it was made in Abilene, not Elkhart. The 4B is absolutely as new. Me? I live in the .491 to .525 world, and I've found that I'm not really comfortable outside it. If either of these horns is of interest to you, please contact me off the list, otherwise they go on eBay some day soon. Gary From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:13 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:52:54 -0800 From: "Gary D. Maxwell" To: smcrane@esper.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: I was tortured.... Message-ID: <3885EBE6.AB091CAF@bcsd.k12.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Stewart M. Crane" wrote: > Serious PS: All the self-esteem garbage that has been taught in our schools > is starting to smell. Doug just got a snootful of it. WOW! It's finally gotten out! Keep hollering Stewart, my friend. I'm in the "system" and have been called on the carpet a few times for expressing exactly the same. THANKS! Stewart! Gary Maxwell Bass Trombone(erstwhile P.S. teacher) Bakersfield Symphony Orchestra From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:13 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:02:54 -0500 From: richardt@LEE.ARMY.MIL To: Tom.Shaddox@fnc.fujitsu.com, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: RE: Sousa scores (and pitches and shoots trap and rides horses an d boxes bare knuckle...) Message-ID: <21E592FA8BA7D311B5B100062B001FE2082EC4@LEE2> Mr. Sousa also wrote some methods. I remember browsing through a music library and seeing musty looking treatises on the art of playing various instruments. Kettledrums and bugles rings a bell. For historical instrument you ought to dig one of those up. /tim > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom C. Shaddox [SMTP:Tom.Shaddox@fnc.fujitsu.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 11:23 AM > To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu > Subject: Sousa scores (and pitches and shoots trap and rides horses > and boxes bare knuckle...) > > Mike wrote in part: > >I have never seen one of Sousa's march scores ... I'd like to look > >at some of the scores to see how he handled these things.... I figured > >it was a good idea to study the works of a master instead of > >reinventing the wheel. > > Mike, I'm no Sousa scholar, and stop me if you've already heard this, > but his scores and parts tell only part of the story. I understand that > he would pass out pretty clean parts and then _tell_ his players how he > wanted it played. He also used about twice as many clarinets as your > typical band. The instruments have changed, too. For instance, his > brass line was cornets and small, straight tenor trombones (lead > trombonist Pryor played a particularly small instrument.) Even if you > put notes on paper just like Sousa, it will sound different played by a > modern band. You probably know all that. > > I have really enjoyed the Dallas Wind Symphony's Sousa march CD. While > they used modern instrumentation, the dynamics and tempi chosen by > conductor Junkin really make this music come to life in comparison to > the typical school band treatment. It's fresh, exciting, even > passionate - good job by all involved. And who can forget (or > overlook!) trombonist Bob Burnham's FFF blastoff 37 seconds into > "Manhattan Beach"? A couple of the DWS woodwinds told me that was the > single most memorable moment in the recording session, even more so than > the first time they rung the "liberty bell"! > > Oh, and if in your study of these scores you find out just what it was > that the Sousa Band's bass trombonist did, let me know. He's on the > roster; he's in the pictures - I just haven't found him in the music. > > I gotta go practice, > Tom Shaddox, 9th chair tenor > From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:14 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:09:26 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Audition tapes (was: I was tortured) Message-ID: <200001191709.LAA00422@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Our system also allows anyone >whose tape was rejected to come and play live anyway, but they are >strongly discouraged from doing so.), but it was fewer than all my >fingers. I cannot tell you how many I personally voted for, but if I >were a fish, you could count them on my toes. Doug, but wait.....fish don't have t.......... oh, I get it ;) I laughed out loud when reading your lightly veiled info! >scary thing about what happened yesterday is the depressing thought >that people actually sent in tapes they thought had a chance! Wow... I find this really amazing and depressing, but perhaps on an other level, rater uplifting. I think we all suffer from the notion that everyone submitting a tape or coming to an audition is a veritable god of the instrument. The real challenge to winning an audition is beating out the few players who are truly monsters on the horn. Being a self-admitted perfectionist I can't even imagine sending a tape that was anything less than perfect judged against other recordings that I deem perfect by other players. It takes very little discipline to be thoroughly objective about one's own playing. If you listen to your tape and it sounds anything less than a great recording in your collection, it is not worth releasing. I have been told that my perfectionism often made me miss opportunities - it probably has, but I'd rather that be the case than release something that I was not impressed by. Helpful hint: When I get done with any recording project I put the tape away for a few weeks to help gain an objective opinion through distancing myself from the project. The next time I bring it out I listen to it in the car as many times as I can stand (the car can often be a great acoustic environment for listening - I love mine. If you drive a 1967 VW Van with an 8-track, you might want to reconsider this option!). Then I listen to it on as many different setups that I can find - from great to bad. I rarely play it for other people unless I know they are going to be brutally honest and have the background and knowledge to really be able to give an informed opinion. Do not play it for your mom! She'll love everything you do :) That's her job. Do not play it for your wife/husband/significant other till you are thoroughly satisfied and confident - it could make life at home lass than comfortable for a while. When I find myself smiling and singing along with something I've done and forget I had anything to do with it, then I know it is ok to send into the world. All other tapes make it into my office closet - or get erased! Mike From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:15 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:12:20 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Sousa scores Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Don't forget Paul E. Bierley's excellent research on Sousa, especially his catalog of Sousa's works, "The Works of John Philip Sousa" (Integrity Press, 1984, ISBN 0-918048-04-4) which includes information on all editions of Sousa's complete works, and a few facsimile score pages (the complete Stars and Stripes Forever, in piano score). Wonderful reading. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:15 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:27:03 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: smcrane@esper.com Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: I was tortured.... Message-ID: <200001191727.LAA02313@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hat's off to you, Stewart for having the insight, bravery and intelligence to make this public statement! If you have not already done so, you and everyone interested in seeing the days of mindless egalitarianism and anti-meritocracy come to an end should read a wonderful book by William Henry called "In Defense of Elitism". Do not be put off by the title. Elitism has become a horrible invective to hurl at those who disagree with you or an indictment of some truly despicable things (racism, sexism, etc). Hog wash. Henry's book is a bold, compassionate and wickedly intelligent look at where political correctness has taken us ( I always have to believe that PC started with good intentions - but as the saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions") Before flaming me for bigotry and close-mindedness (as always happens when someone says something that conflicts with the "idea of the month") read the book and see what he is really saying. A book with a title like "in Defense of Elitism" sounds to most ears these days rather shocking and harsh - like it may as well be called "How to Keep Women and Other Minorities From Shaking Your World" Not the case at all - this is an important book that makes a good point about recognizing merit and TRUE equality - not the manufactured artifice of what a few people decided was going to be considered correct! Mike At 10:24 AM 1/19/00 , you wrote: >Place tongue in cheek before continuing. > >But Doug, did the players who made those tapes FEEL GOOD about their >playing? And who are you and the other members of the BSO audition committee >to say what's good and what's bad? Each person is entitled to define for >him/her self what is good trumpet playing, and for the audition committee to >tell that person that their playing is not good when the player believes >that it is, is to seriously damage the player's self-esteem. Heaven forbid >that we should do that! :-) > >Stewart Crane > >Serious PS: All the self-esteem garbage that has been taught in our schools >is starting to smell. Doug just got a snootful of it. > From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:15 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:36:09 -0600 From: PAUL LUKAS To: smcrane@esper.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: I was tortured.... Message-ID: <3885F609.1FED41BC@bellsouth.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Serious PS: All the self-esteem garbage that has been taught in our schools > is starting to smell. Doug just got a snootful of it. Yes, I agree, and just one look at the BSO tells me that they don't meet current standards for ethnic diversity. Nor, for that matter, does the NBA. -- E. PAUL LUKAS TROMBONIST, PUBLICIST BARTLETT COMMUNITY CONCERT BAND MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE USA PAULEL9@BELLSOUTH.NET From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:15 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:54:40 -0800 From: "Jim O'Briant" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Octave jumping Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Koester wrote, in part: > ... The conductor's response (in one > particularly embarrassing situation) was > "hey @#$ %^&*, if the #@$%^ arranger had > wanted that ^%### note down a $%@^$ octave > he'd have !@$@% written it there. I haven't followed this thread in great detail, so perhaps my observations have already been made by others. This yearning need to play every passage a low as humanly possible afflicts not only bass trombonists, but also a fair percentage of tubists as well. I served as nominal (but not official) tuba section leader in a community band for a few years, and we had one fellow who seemed to believe that everything should be played at least half an octave below the staff. My response was usually along the lines quoted above, though without the need for the "expletive deleted" characters. I found it most effective to find a spot in the same arrangement that WAS written in the extreme low range and say, "See? This arranger knows how to write low parts -- WHEN HE WANTS THEM! He didn't write in that octave here, so that means he DOESN'T WANT the low octave here. Please play what's written!" Usually, our section showoff would fall into line, but for those passages that he insisted on re-writing his way, I'd clue in the director, who would listen for it and then let fly with virtually the same statement you quote above (sometimes including all those funny @#$%^&(characters). Jim O'Briant Bayside Music Press Gilroy, CA Publishers of Brass Quintets and other stuff -- E-mail me for a free catalog via return e-mail Great way to start a three hour rehearsal. Live and learn. Having said all that, the bass trombone range was expanded to much of it's current application by guys experimenting. One of the earliest guys to explore the extreme low range was the late '60's early '70's bass trombone player at what was then the International Hotel in Las Vegas named Marty Harrell. Marty had a killer low range and began using it in all sorts of contexts. Next thing you know, the show arrangers were asking for and writing those notes. So, evolution was in a sense served by someone being a smart aleck. Nonetheless, taste and grace must prevail. Practice those notes so you have them in your repetoire. Experiment with them in appropriate places. But, play it where it's written (for the most part :-)), and leave the hanging over to the lead trumpet player. Have fun, Bob >Question that's been bugging me awhile as a music major playing bass >trombone: >I know numerous other bass trombone players, some who are in school with >me and some who aren't, who make it a habit to drop passages in music (be >it marching, 'bone choir, concert band, etc.) down at least an octave, >without regard for position in the chord, blend with the ensemble, or >space between voices. Anything written in or above the staff is fair game >to be transferred to the pedal register, not to mention the last note, >which MUST be dropped below wherever it is written...because it's the last >note. In light of all the list discussions about "authenticity", >"respecting the composer's intent", not to mention "finding one's own >voice as a musician", I am concerned that too many bass trombonists are >concerned with showing off than actually rendering any sort of meaningful >music. (And yes, I have read Douglas Yeo's article about "Me, Myself and >I" on his webpage; it's an excellent article for those who haven't read >it.) What are some other opinions on this topic? >David Proctor > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- >William David Proctor--Music Education--Bass Trombone--University of >Tennessee, Knoxville > *129th Army National Guard Band--Nashville, TN >*UT Wind Ensemble-UT Civic Orchestra-Pride of the Southland Marching > Band-Trombone Choir-Christian Student Center-Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia >"Always give thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our >Lord Jesus Christ." Ephesians 5:20 >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > > > _______________________ bob koester mediation services, inc. bkoester@fixbusinessdebt.com From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:16 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:01:00 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: I was tortured.... Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 11:36 AM -0600 1/19/00, PAUL LUKAS wrote: > >Yes, I agree, and just one look at the BSO tells me that they don't >meet current standards for ethnic diversity. Nor, for that matter, >does the NBA. Excellence knows no color, no sex. Blind auditions (behind a screen) are blind for the right reasons because they cause people to listen to what is coming from the instrument, not who is playing. Orchestras would LOVE more blacks in their ranks. The Detroit Symphony had major problems with the Michigan state legislature a few years ago when the legislature essentially demanded quotas for blacks in the orchestra or they would pull funding. The Legislature had no idea of what auditions were about. Excellence. They learned. What to do? The BSO started a program about 10 years ago called STEP - String Training and Education Program. For minority children who want to play a string instrument who don't have the opportunity to do so because of their economic, etc situation. Free lessons, free instruments, free support network. This is not a "feel good" program, but a response to the fact that the reason we don't have many blacks in symphony orchestras is that proportionally, not as many blacks as whites pick up classical orchestra instruments at an early age. The STEP program is interested in equal opportunity - not equal outcomes. The result: several "graduates" of the STEP program have moved into major orchestras on their own MERIT, several are in conservatories now, including Juilliard on their MERIT. The BSO has hired 5 violinsts in the past 2 years. Four happen to be Asian women. The latest one is a Russian man. People in the BSO speak 20 native languages. Diversity rules, but not diversity as defined by a particular interest group. Just play great. BSO, NBA, whatever. When you play great, nobody looks at or cares about what you look like (OK, I know that SHOULD be the case,and it's not always the case, but that's the goal - there will always be idiots...). Nobody got eliminated at the BSO trumpet tape audition because of their race or sex, or sexual orientation, or mouthpiece, or horn. They got eliminated because they played poorly. Some may whine about other factors, but when you listen to tapes blind, you get to tell the honest truth. Sometimes people don't like to hear it... -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:16 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:32:51 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Book titles Message-ID: <000001bf62a7$cc12ae20$f8b601d5@v4v3j2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry White To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 4:58 AM Subject: Re: Book titles > Test, Test > Monday Jan 17 99 OK Larry, I'll use that one. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk http://www.adios.co.uk From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:17 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:42:20 -0000 From: "Adrian Drover" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Big Band scores Message-ID: <000101bf62a7$d2f9a5e0$f8b601d5@v4v3j2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: daboneman To: Trombones and related issues forum. Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 7:32 PM Subject: Re: Big Band scores > Here's a question though.... why do you only want the scores > to these? I would assume for study purposes. It would be easier to buy the whole set, than copy the parts yourself. Having said that, in my youth as a student arranger (when there were no books on the subject worth reading), I used to copy band parts back onto a score so I could analyse the orchestration. A. Adrian Drover (ADIOS Scotland) Personal: adrian@adios.co.uk Business: studio@adios.co.uk http://www.adios.co.uk From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:17 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:12:51 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Self Esteem, Music, and the Like Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Doug's experience is more than just a general statement of the failure of our "self esteem" based education system, even though that is a large part of it. A large chunk of the blame also needs to be placed on the low regard that administrations place on music programs in general. Look at the sports programs as a comparison. Children have to take PE as part of the curriculum. Those that are really jocko-homo get to "try out" (read - audition) for a team. Those that cut the mustard get to play, those that don't get cut. What about our music programs? Wouldn't it be nice is music was taught as part of the general curriculum, and you had to "try out" for a spot in the band? It used to be that way when I was in school. Now all you need is an instrument, and if you can't afford one, the school will issue you one. Needless to say, with the new found "diversity" within our bands (everything from having never seen a trombone before to having years of private instruction), excellence is nearly out of the question. Often, the good players drop out due to the lack of challenge and boredom. Wouldn't it be nice to attend a school that has a state of the art band room and a worn out football field? And one could even go on to blame the band competitions to some extent. From what I have seen, then tend to develop quite a few very good one trick ponies, not very many real musicians. The situation is much deeper than what will be cure by "new elitism". Some say that you cannot quantify good. Others disagree. Perhaps there is truth in the relativity of goodness when it comes to style. I have had the misfortune to see some rather hideous performances by orchestras that were "good". Too bad the music sucked. On the other hand, standards can and should be set on some elements of technique. Playing in tune is important, regardless of your musical idiom. Keeping time is also very important in any kind of ensemble, Rock, Classical or Jazz. I once was asked to comment on a piece that had been played by a group that was very complex and modern. I did not know what to say. The piece really stunk, however the band played it marvelously. I just told them "you played what was written very well." Where do we draw the line in defining "good". I would like to state that I firmly believe that a line DOES need to be drawn somewhere. What are the chances of ever achieving agreement as to where? For myself, I try to stress listening to the students that I work with. We need to hear good music in order to play it. It is no suprise to me that a generation that grew up with Spice Girls, Nirvana and Coolio has no idea of how to play Beethoven. But, in our "free market" commercial society, how do we convince people that composers who were destitute their entire lives, who's music is being taught by people finding it difficult to feed their family, is preferable to that produced by millionaires? We are fighting an uphill battle, but one that is worthy of being fought. Just my opinion. Ken Dowdy From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:17 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:32:59 -0500 From: Charles To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: I was tortured...self-esteem? Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000119173259.006a0f78@totcon.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think "self-esteem" is being confused with "an improper evaluation of one's abilities". My feeling is that self esteem is a very important attribute. But so is being capable of honestly evaluating your abilities, whether it be in math, science or music. I think I have excellent self-esteem but I certainly wouldn't consider auditioning for the BSO. I have honestly evaluated my abilities! Charlie From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:17 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:56:37 -0800 From: "Gary D. Maxwell" To: kdowdy@oppd.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Self Esteem, Music, and the Like Message-ID: <388608E5.AAF3CE18@bcsd.k12.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "DOWDY, KENNETH S" wrote: > > Now all you > need is an instrument, and if you can't afford one, the school will issue > you one. Not only that, but parents/public have come to EXPECT, almost REQUIRE that instruments be supplied, free of any charge, of course, and keep them in good repair also. Gary Maxwell From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:18 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:04:12 EST From: Neobopr@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: I was tortured Message-ID: <4d.ce5bc4.25b764ac@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Doug and all, We have the same problem in the US Army Field Band when we do auditions. For the trombone chair that I hold and also the lead chair, there were 60-some tapes submitted. The two of us currently in the chairs were also the only tapes that were head and shoulders above the rest. Go figure! We have recently filled through audition a vocal slot, Lead alto and are gearing up to audition for jazz trumpet next week. Invariably, 80% of the tapes we get are a joke. Thankfully, there has been a shining star or two out of the leftovers or we would have to be going through the whole process again. Anyway, I just wanted you to know that I feel your pain. Please make it stop, it hurts!! :-) Yamaha Artist/Clinician-Jeff Adams From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:18 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:05:02 -0800 From: "Gary D. Maxwell" To: chardy@totcon.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: I was tortured...self-esteem? Message-ID: <38860ADE.25AFB726@bcsd.k12.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles wrote: > > I think "self-esteem" is being confused with "an improper evaluation of one's abilities". > > > I think I have excellent self-esteem but I certainly wouldn't consider auditioning for the BSO. I have honestly evaluated my abilities! Good point Charlie! Should my self-esteem be hurt when I apply for flight lessons but am told no, because I have no depth perception, and know it? Watch out below! Gary Maxwell From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:18 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:45:00 -0500 From: "Johnson, Scott (TBS)" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Leadership Institute: Jazz and Libraries #2 Message-ID: <69D701C43C4ED211BAAC0000F807753702FA277B@cnncmx03.turner.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Angie, Gee... I dunno. If this is what they are featuring, I'd only go if it was convenient and FREE. I suppose that it is possible that there may actually be some good stuff there, but it looks way too cutesy and forced to me (PC and Feel-Good-Corporate-Speek detector is now indicating MAXIMUM levels). No one should "Embrace Errors" in a profession. Learn from them OK. Encourage them? I don't think so. And why would the workshop leaders think musicians embrace errors? Hoo boy. They certainly are not musicians of any appreciable skill to be able to say that AND believe it. I see way too much of this sort of thing here at work and it is not amusing any more. (Most of it seems to originate from the HR department. Hmmmm.) These folks should abide by the old bromide: Say what you mean and mean what you say. I know... Too simple. Best regards, Scott Johnson Conyers, GA USA -----Original Message----- From: Angie Brunk [mailto:angie@cybersolvers.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 5:39 PM To: Trombones and related issues forum. Subject: Leadership Institute: Jazz and Libraries #2 Some of you asked for updates on this jazz in libraries workshop. If I can afford it, I'll go and report. I don't think I agree with their definition of inprovisation. Any comments? >Good morning! Last week we introduced the upcoming conference on Jazz and >Libraries. Here's more! > >Jazz improvisation includes: >1. A deliberate effort to interrupt habits >2. Embracing errors >3. Maximizing flexibility >4. Making sense by looking backwards >5. Negotiating and synchronizing >6. Hanging out >7. Taking turns soloing and supporting -- snip -- From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:18 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 13:56:44 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: maxwellg@bcsd.k12.ca.us Cc: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: I was tortured...self-esteem? Message-ID: <200001191957.NAA16369@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Good point Charlie! Should my self-esteem be hurt when I apply for >flight lessons >but am told no, because I have no depth perception, and know it? Watch >out below! Gary, you have depth perception. You frequently respond to me posts and they have great depth ;-) Mike >Gary Maxwell > From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:19 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 11:53:17 -0800 From: "Rodney Ellard" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Self Esteem, Music, and the Like Message-ID: <002201bf62b6$d7798ae0$a7f094d1@rod> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am experiencing some cognitive dissonance. A few weeks ago there was a thread about "honours band this" and "all-state band that", including, from (I think) Mike Coyle, "all eastern seaboard" etc. Being from a country whose culture encourages mediocrity at all levels, I was impressed by the Darwinian approach to music education apparently in place in such enlightened places as Texas. Now Ken tells me it ain't necessarily so. Let the kids play. It's only music. Dots on a page. Rod From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:19 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:00:20 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: self esteem Message-ID: <200001192000.OAA16909@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Self esteem is something that comes from good actions, right behavior and acheivements of merit. Not the other way around. If you want to feel good aobut yourself, be a good person. MC From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:19 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:26:14 -0500 From: "Chuck De Paolo" To: "Trombone-L" Subject: Re: I was tortured.... Message-ID: <012001bf62bb$6e852850$0200a8c0@ws2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Try designing a bridge when 2+2=5..... > > Would YOU drive over it? How about the Mars Orbiter for that matter? Or Mars Polar Lander... From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:19 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:25:14 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Self Esteem, Music, and the Like Message-ID: <200001192025.OAA20089@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:53 PM 1/19/00 , you wrote: >I am experiencing some cognitive dissonance. A few weeks ago there was a >thread about "honours band this" and "all-state band that", including, from >(I think) Mike Coyle, "all eastern seaboard" etc. Being from a country Yup, it was me >whose culture encourages mediocrity at all levels, I was impressed by the >Darwinian approach to music education apparently in place in such >enlightened places as Texas. Now Ken tells me it ain't necessarily so. > >Let the kids play. It's only music. Dots on a page. > >Rod > Well yeah, but there's a little more to it than that for some folks. I agree that anyone who wants to learn to play an instrument should be allowed that opportunity. And, even if they find they are not particualrly good at it, but enjoy it, then fine, play on. Find others who you can play with and have fun. Now, if this group choose to record a CD of great hits for band I doubt that I'd trade in my current CD collection for it. As in all pursuits, there will always be those who do it for shear enjoyment (albeit not very well) and those that excel and go on to bring fine artistry to it at the same time that they too are finding meaning and pleasure (I hope). In other words, just because someone rises above the crowd in terms of abillity or gets paid to do something does not mean that they have become jaded and bitter and no longer find pleasure in what they do. I think there is a place for healthy and fair competition and there always will be. It should not be to the detriment of those who don't want to be involved in that, but if you choose to throw yourself into the competition be prepared to accept the outcome. There is even benefit and learning to be had from losing (so I hear ;) kidding, I have lost as many competitions as the next guy - maybe more. I once auditioned for Gunther Schuller when I was a kid. It was just me and him in a hotel room with really LAME acoustics and I had to play orchestral excerps looking right at him. Now, if you know Schuller, you know that he is a rather imposing figure and not all that pleasant to look at - but one heck (I'm being a good boy so I don't get trashed for "swearing") of a musician! I was so nervous I wanted to vomit. I may as well have done just that considering how miserably I played. It did teach me a lesson though - BE PREPARED! I had neglected working on some excerpts that he choose to use (i.e. Tchaikovskys Fourth, FIRST movement - what did I care about the first movement as a kid, all the fire was in the fourth!). I never made that mistake again and if I knew I was not ready for an auditrion I passed it by. Back to self-esteem. I am very aware of the areas in my life that make me feel good about myself. Conversely I am aware of those that need a lot of work before I can feel as good. The things that really feed good self esteem are not how well you play the trombone or how fast you can sprint. The real things that make for good self-esteem are how well you treat other people and how much you try to give to your world without expecting reward. It is like the often controversial subject of God's will (if you believe in God that is) Questions like "is it God's will for me to have this job or buy this shirt" are stupid. God couldn't care less about the surface, I would imagine. How you treat others and how you behave seem like a far more logical area for God's concern :) I really try not to bring up issues that might raise theological hackles or say things that are just for "shock value" to get a rise out of people. I hope no one see these last comments as anything other than an example of my point. Thanks, mike coyle From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:20 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:05:01 -0600 From: "DOWDY, KENNETH S" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: Self Esteem, Music, and the Like Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Rod, Ken is 500 miles North or the enlightened utopia of Texas. Also, having spent the early part of his life in Texas, Ken also knows that the biggest product of the Lone Star State is manufactured in the intestinal tubing of bovine creatures. Also, since it is pretty well known that sports receives higher funding than music, and being aware of the results of certain Big Twelve championship football games, Ken hopes that Texans play the trombone better than they play football :-) :-) :-) Ken >From Nebraska Seriously, kids should be allowed to play. That is all it is anyway, playing. As I said before, I don't like to take my entertainment too seriously. However, for those that do, the quality of the entertainment is in danger of going the way of a lot of products these days. For people like Doug and other professional musicians, this is quite distressing. However, I often wonder if the same audition tapes that nauseated the BSO were played for the general public, would anyone would notice the difference? And that is where another part of the problem lies. Until the public demands better quality, there is little chance of much improvement. I would bet that you could take about any average high school trumpeter, dress him in a tux, put him in fourth chair of the BSO, and the public would be clueless. However, if you drop a football, there will be riots in the streets and people will be tearing up your football trading cards (or at least trading four of yours for one pokemon card). Until there are some changes in our culture, not only will you have a shortage of high quality musicians, you will have a shortage of people who want to dedicate the time and sacrifice that it takes to becoming a high quality musician. I watch kids play basketball in the court across from my house for hours at a time. I wonder how long they would practice a musical instrument? On the other hand, I don't wonder . . . I already know :-( > -----Original Message----- > From: Rodney Ellard [SMTP:ellard@sprint.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 1:53 PM > To: Trombones and related issues forum. > Subject: Re: Self Esteem, Music, and the Like > > I am experiencing some cognitive dissonance. A few weeks ago there was a > thread about "honours band this" and "all-state band that", including, > from > (I think) Mike Coyle, "all eastern seaboard" etc. Being from a country > whose culture encourages mediocrity at all levels, I was impressed by the > Darwinian approach to music education apparently in place in such > enlightened places as Texas. Now Ken tells me it ain't necessarily so. > > Let the kids play. It's only music. Dots on a page. > > Rod > From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:20 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:43:09 EST From: MBennetts@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Torture Message-ID: <47.dba028.25b789ed@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/19/00 2:24:38 PM Central Standard Time, chuck@hickeys.com writes: > > Try designing a bridge when 2+2=5..... > > > > Would YOU drive over it? > > How about the Mars Orbiter for that matter? > > Or Mars Polar Lander... > Just don't take the additional step to the Mars Explorer. I went to K through 12 with its developer, and he's no 2 + 2 = 5 guy. But the most important thing about him is that he's the best musician I've every known personally, and he was my accompanist for every trombone contest solo I ever played in school. Mike Bennett From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:20 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:50:56 EST From: JennWhaa@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Help! I could be torturing you! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I freely admit that I am a victim of this whole PC, self-esteem thing. Not only have I received fake praise from teachers but I have also received it from my parents and friends, specifically in music. Don't get me wrong, I can play my horn. This wasn't always the case and I am still FAR from even thinking about making a tape for a BSO audition. But I realize that many people give praise freely even when it is not deserved either because they don't know any better (my parents) or they are concerned about hurting my feelings (my friends). As a result, and this may be a bad thing, I have a really hard time believing anything anyone tells me that is good and am much more likely to believe criticism. I don't want to be part of the 99% that don't know how badly they are playing. I am going to know exactly how horrible I am at all times! :) So, this leaves me a bit mental..... Is there a term for "fear of compliments"?? Jen From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:21 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:12:24 -0600 (CST) From: hal-starkey@webtv.net (Hal Starkey) To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Octave jumping Message-ID: <3169-388636C8-108@storefull-173.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Some very interesting insights of bass trombonists playing an 8va lower than written. I hear it all the time. And I'd have to agree that it is an ego thing. I used to play some bass trombone and lowered some notes myself sometimes. It was fun! I know a couple bass trombonists who will almost always play the last note of a piece an octave down. And besides that they'll hang on to it a bit long after the cut off. It's mostly in fun, but when they play together they each want to have the last word (note) in! Everybody in that band knows what these guys are doing and just overlook it good-heartedly. Now, how about tenor players who take a part up an octave? I've done it too, but not much. I learned a lesson a lot of years ago about doing that. I played the 1st part second chair in a summer concert band in college one year. We had a guest director. I think he was from a Florida university. His name might have been Cooper. Anyway, during a rehearsal the guy playing first chair told me, "this part is boring. I'm going to play it up an octave." When we came in the next time he did it. He wailed our part up an octave. Or at least he started to. After 3 or 4 notes the director SLAMMED his baton down on the stand. He turned and glared right at us and yelled, "I think if Mr. Persichetti had wanted the trombone part played an octave higher he would have WRITTEN it on octave higher! I don't know which one of you did it but if either of you does it again you'll NEVER play in this band again!!!" It didn't happen again. Hal From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:21 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:11:47 MST From: Dennis Clason To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: I was tortured.... Message-ID: <200001192212.PAA171144@nestor.NMSU.Edu> Addressed to: "Chuck De Paolo" trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu ** Reply to note from Chuck De Paolo 01/19/00 3:26pm -0500 > > Try designing a bridge when 2+2=5..... > > > > Would YOU drive over it? > > How about the Mars Orbiter for that matter? > > Or Mars Polar Lander... The failure of the orbiter (and maybe the polar lander) are going to be fun jokes to cite (I remember some jokes about the early Ranger moon probes in the 60's ... "Geeze, how could NASA miss it! It's the MOON for crying out loud!"). But they aren't symptomatic of a "feel-good" education. I can assure you that the engineering programs at MIT and CalTech are as rigorous today as ever -- one of the things students learn there is to "feel good" about the process IF you used a "good" process, AND you did your best. What the Mars probe failures (and the problem of Hubble needing corrective lenses) indicate are system failures. These aren't failures of individuals, they are failures of systems and procedures. What it boils down to is this: NASA and JPL and Lockheed used a flawed system. The result is not one they can feel good about, and in fact they DON'T feel good about it. For some reason, we stand on the verge of the 21st century staring at flawed systems all around us. It's not just the space program, nor is it just education, it's everywhere. It's in medical procedures. A graduate student of mine is working with me on evaluating needle stick injuries. Once you examine the process, you discover quickly how to reduce needle sticks to an almost ignorable level. BUT, the reduction requires people to change the way they do business, and Medical Dieties are people, too. They don't like change, and won't support change if it inconveniences them. The problems can only be addressed at the system level. Trying to get people to think about the system is really hard. I used to think that music helped people to think of systems, but I'm not so sure any more. Or maybe they do, but don't transfer the learning into other areas of life. Or, as Brian's football coach puts it: "There is no I in TEAM." Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason email: dclason@nmsu.edu Department of Economics / University Statistics Center New Mexico State University Las Cruces, New Mexico USA From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:21 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 14:18:05 -0800 From: " Dan Cloutier" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: removable f-attachments Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary Sloane wrote: >Now that the topic has come up and we're going >in the direction of "unnecessary" --especially >because everybody with a .547 horn will simply >keep the f-attachment on if given the choice Not me. If I had the choice, I'd play a straight horn--.547 bore. But my work these days being the way it is (freelance jobs and taking auditions) using an F-attachment is basically a requirement. --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==-- Share what you know. Learn what you don't. From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:22 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:30:16 MST From: Dennis Clason To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Help! I could be torturing you! Message-ID: <200001192230.PAA174968@nestor.NMSU.Edu> Addressed to: JennWhaa@aol.com trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu ** Reply to note from JennWhaa@aol.com 01/19/00 4:50pm EST > I freely admit that I am a victim of this whole PC, self-esteem thing. Not > only have I received fake praise from teachers but I have also received it > from my parents and friends, specifically in music. Don't get me wrong, I > can play my horn. This wasn't always the case and I am still FAR from even > thinking about making a tape for a BSO audition. But I realize that many > people give praise freely even when it is not deserved either because they > don't know any better (my parents) or they are concerned about hurting my > feelings (my friends). > > As a result, and this may be a bad thing, I have a really hard time > believing anything anyone tells me that is good and am much more likely > to believe criticism. I don't want to be part of the 99% that don't know > how badly they are playing. I am going to know exactly how horrible I am > at all times! :) > > So, this leaves me a bit mental..... > > Is there a term for "fear of compliments"?? If you've received "fake" praise from teachers, they have (in my view) betrayed your trust. Part of the contract between student and teacher involves the student putting forth her best effort, and the teacher supplying a *constructive* evaluation of the results. There is never an excuse for ad hominem attacks. On the other hand, as Doug has often pointed out, there is no single standard. I teach statistics: I have one set of (fairly low) standards for undergraduates taking a survey course in statistics. I have another set (more stringent) of standards for graduate students taking a course in applied statistical methods. I have yet another set of (still higher) standards for students taking my graduate class in probability theory, and another set of standards for research students. Different situations, different standards. You have to know what your teacher's standards are, and what YOUR standards are. If they are in conflict, you need to reconcile the standards. It's not usually hard to get a teacher to raise the bar for you ... getting them to lower the bar can be substantially harder. Every student needs someone whose opinion can be trusted. Your teacher should be one of those people. In spanish, your teacher is said, "Su maestro/a", harkening back to the days of apprenticeship when the master's opinion was the only one that mattered. Dennis -- Dennis L. Clason email: dclason@nmsu.edu Department of Economics / University Statistics Center New Mexico State University Las Cruces, New Mexico USA From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:22 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:30:42 EST From: MBennetts@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: People Who Play (Yuck) Other Instruments Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If any of you s*bscribes to a list such as this that is frequented by percussionists or players of euphonium or tuba, I would appreciate hearing from you offlist. Our north-suburban Chicago symphonic band is in particular need of a few good players of each of these types to audition. I have an information sheet that I would e-mail to you and ask you to post to any such lists if you are willing. Thanks. Remember that trombones sound even better when their supporting cast includes adequate percussion, euphoniums and tubas! Mike Bennett From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:22 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 16:40:35 -0600 From: Angie Brunk To: "Chuck De Paolo" Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: I was tortured.... Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 3:26 PM -0500 1/19/00, Chuck De Paolo wrote: >> Try designing a bridge when 2+2=5..... >> >> Would YOU drive over it? > >How about the Mars Orbiter for that matter? > >Or Mars Polar Lander... I hate to break it to you, but the problems with the Mars landers has nothing to do with "Self Esteem." (aka the modern whipping boy) The loss of the polar lander was caused by confusion of measuring units. A friend of mine, who works for a NASA contractor and is an astronomy/physics PhD student loves to rant about this one. (Want to have fun on a Saturday night? Ask Doug "Hey what about that Mars lander?" Sit back and watch the fire works.) I've also heard an intriguing theory. The Martians have been watching us for years and are none too pleased with the nieghbors. :-) Angie Brunk MLS Indiana University School of Library and Information Science 1999 "As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, those wrongs would last forever."--Clarence Darrow From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:22 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:14:05 EST From: NHSGrizzly16@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Help! I could be torturing you! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit actually, there is a phobia for fear of compliments...the name hasn't struck me yet though.... From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:23 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:29:21 -0500 From: "Chuck De Paolo" To: "Trombone-L" Subject: Re: I was tortured.... - clarification Message-ID: <016801bf62d5$03bf5490$0200a8c0@ws2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>> Try designing a bridge when 2+2=5..... >>> >>> Would YOU drive over it? >> >>How about the Mars Orbiter for that matter? >> > Just don't take the additional step to the Mars Explorer. I went to K > through 12 with its developer, and he's no 2 + 2 = 5 guy. But the most > important thing about him is that he's the best musician I've every known > personally, and he was my accompanist for every trombone contest solo I ever > played in school. No, of course not. I should have put a smiley in there! Those guys worked hard to build that thing - they did a hell of alot more than I could have done. Sorry for the misguided humor, no offense was intended to the good folks at NASA, JPL and elsewhere. The orbiter just happened to come up in another related conversation we were having here today about how sometimes we lose sight of the end result in education and focus maybe a little too closely on the process. Process is good - real good - but end result is well, end result. In the "real" world it is the end result that counts. In our related discussion we were talking about how a collegue of mine here managed to get a high grade on a Music Theory paper, despite the fact the he had transposed one of the instruments incorrectly. With the incorrect transposition, an incorrect set analysis was made (it was a "set theory" paper). With the incorrect set analysis, an incorrect conclusion was drawn. He's a excellent student and wrote an otherwise excellent paper, but was docked only 8 points for the transposition error and thus still received an "A". The Mars Orbiter analogy, although somewhat loose, was drawn upon to illustrate how seemingly simple things can cause disatrous results. Those guys who built that thing got "A"s all around in every aspect, from the vehicle's design to it's launch and ten thousand other details. But it failed for a simple "transposition" error if you may - units of measurement. My point to my collegue was that he should not have received an "A" since after all his paper failed to complete the mission, regardless of the good work that went into producing it. ---Chuck From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:23 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:42:45 -0500 (EST) From: Beth Lewis To: JennWhaa@aol.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: Help! I could be torturing you! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 JennWhaa@aol.com wrote: > > I freely admit that I am a victim of this whole PC, self-esteem thing. Not only have I received fake praise from teachers but I have also received it from my parents and friends, specifically in music. Don't get me wrong, I can play my horn. This wasn't always the case and I am still FAR from even thinking about making a tape for a BSO audition. Hold on a second...I'm no supporter of the '2+2=5 as long as you feel good about it' regime, but there HAS to be some praise in music instruction. You shouldn't blame parents/friends for being too heavy on that end of the spectrum (how can they help it?), but from teachers it is necessary in some amount. How would you feel if in every trombone lesson you have ever had, or any kind of instruction for that matter, all the teacher had to say was stuff like "Okay...your articulation's sloppy," "you're dragging," or "that was out of tune"...no positive reinforcement of any kind. Realizing your areas of weaknesses is really important, but the occasional sincere, positive comment can really make or break the success of a teacher (by that I mean being able to keep students improving -artistically, personally, and technically- AND coming back). With young students this is especially important (even if you have to think really hard to find something to compliment). I haven't done a lot of teaching myself, but I know with all the teachers I've admired a pretty even balance of positive-negative comments is present. Also, we're not here because we want to learn how to push and pull slides, keys and buttons with utmost grace, but we are here for the love of music (I hope that's the case anyway). That love isn't nurtured with instruction void of positive reinforcement. >But >I realize that many people give praise freely even when it is not >deserved >either because they don't know any better (my parents) or they are >concerned about hurting my feelings (my friends). Nah, they probably just realized that you're already giving yourself more than your fair share of criticism. Try to lighten up a little--it seems to me that this total negativity could only lead to burn-out. Beth L. > > As a result, and this may be a bad thing, I have a really hard time believing anything anyone tells me that is good and am much more likely to believe criticism. I don't want to be part of the 99% that don't know how badly they are playing. I am going to know exactly how horrible I am at all times! :) > > So, this leaves me a bit mental..... > > Is there a term for "fear of compliments"?? > > Jen > > From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:24 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:51:07 -0600 From: Emil & Cynthia Orth To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: New horn for sale. Message-ID: <38864DEB.16712DB2@midsouth.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Listers, I have one King 2B (2102) left for sale. Absolutely brand new, King hard case, warranty papers, 7C Mpiece. Yellow brass bell, nickle silver slide section. No dings, scratches, or imperfections. Factory fresh for $875, frgt included in the US. You may inquire further by email or call me at 901-853-8024. Best regards, Emil From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:24 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 15:55:15 -0800 From: "Michael W. Millar & Dava S. Millar" To: JennWhaa@aol.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Teacher compliments, was: Help! I could be torturing you! Message-ID: <38864EE3.E9E413B0@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Years ago, a friend of mine (a fine player) was a student of a well known trombone teacher here in Los Angeles. One day he said to the teacher, "I've been studying with you for almost a year, and I don't think you've paid me a compliment yet." The reply: "If you want compliments, go play for your mother!" Mike Millar From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:24 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:12:39 EST From: Amtrombone@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: I was tortured.... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry if i am speaking out of turn here, but i was under the impression that a good player for ensemble purposes isn't the best out there all the time, but more likely the best for the ensemble. Isn't that part of the reason that groups like the Berlin Philharmonic take players on tour with them for a YEAR before accepting them? Alexis From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:24 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:22:05 EST From: Amtrombone@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Self Esteem, Music, and the Like Message-ID: <64.f532b.25b7af2d@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am a student in public schools. I spend my Friday afternoons going to less fortunate schools TRYING to get the students there interested in instruments and band. This is for a great cause. I know that in entering high school, one thing kept me happy regardless, band. Everything from friends to the passion behind the music. I know for some of my friends who don't live in the best areas, they use music as an outlet for their fear and anger. It also can help keep kids from doing stupid things like drugs. It might sound ridiculous, but i have watched it happen, both ways. PLEASE get over the fact that all trombonists are NOT fabulous, they love playing that is what matters, isn't it? I may be confused about why we play trombone. I do it for the absolute love and passion that i get from playing, no matter how bad i sound. Alexis From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:24 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:22:43 -0500 From: Dave Burch To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Slide Hampton with Dayton Jazz Orchestra Message-ID: <38865553.2508D0F8@fuse.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To listers within driving or spitting distance of Dayton, Ohio: Slide Hampton will be appearing with the Dayton Jazz Orchestra this Friday evening, Jan. 22 at 8:00 at Centerville High School. This is the kickoff for the DJO's American Jazz Composers Concert Series, with Duke Ellington being featured on this evening. Single-concert tickets are $15. The information is on the DJO Web site at http://www.activedayton.com/community/groups/DJO/DJO_Concert_Series.html . -- @%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@ ------ Dave Burch ------ ---- Hamilton, Ohio ----- -- daveburch@fuse.net -- Church and community trombonist, baritone hornist, recorderist, choral singer After Hours Big Band Cincinnati Brass Band at http://cincinnati.brassband.com Hamilton-Fairfield Symphony Chorale (and sometimes Orchestra) at http://www.hfso.org Senior programmer/analyst, Mercy Health Partners @%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@%@ From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:24 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:42:36 EST From: TonyC789@aol.com To: hal-starkey@webtv.net, trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Octave jumping Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gotta get in on this one.... As a TUBIST in an orchestra, I HATE it when a bass bone player does indiscriminate octave jumping. Often, the BT note is an inversion, or ends up being below my note. Having said that, when the BT player and I get together and decide on 8VB'ing a note, it usually works out. Tony Clements From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:25 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:02:01 -0500 From: "John Lavoie" To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: I was tortured.... Message-ID: <089902E9F6EC3D11DA8C0005B8E83109@webmaster.Trombonegod.zzn.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just came across an article in the NY Times about how the incompetent don't often realize the level of their incompetence. You can read it online if you want to sign-up for their site. No spam involved, if you do. Check it out here. http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/health/011800hth- behavior-incompetents.html JOhn John Lavoie Sophomore, Ithaca College http://members.tripod.com/Trombone8vb http://members.tripod.com/Trombone8vb. I appologize for the following ad. ___________________________________________________________ Get your own Web-Based E-mail Service at http://www.zzn.com From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:28 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 17:04:32 -0800 From: "Gary Maxwell" To: , "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: I was tortured.... Message-ID: <00ad01bf62e2$50acdc20$e041a5d1@maxwells> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 19 January, Angie wrote: > I've also heard an intriguing theory. The Martians have been > watching us for years and are none too pleased with the nieghbors. :-) Kind of reminds me of the bumper sticker a saw in (of all places), Utah: God Is coming and is he p---ed! What's shakin' Angie? Gary Maxwell From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:28 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:23:32 -0600 From: "Adolphus Sprott" To: "Trombone-L" Subject: torture Message-ID: <001c01bf62e4$f9f7dee0$e2e2490c@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Doug, Wow, your post about the trumpet audition has really boosted my spirits. I am only a high school senior (I will major in music next year, hopefully at Indiana), but even I can play notes and rythyms and count rests. I have always been under the impression that most of the players at these major auditions are excellent players who have studied music for years. It seems as though with a degree in music, they would have at least learned how to play correct rythyms and play at the right time. I have heard that solid fundamentals are good enough to win any audition. Does this mean that if I play the correct notes, rythyms, articulation, and style with a good sound that I have a chance at winning an orchestral audition? From several of the post it seems as though these auditioners basically suck for the most part. Is the musical standard really that low nowadays? I must say that I am extremely surprised? Where do these people come from and where did they study? Were these great players with elementary mistakes, or were they just plain elementary players? From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:28 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:25:04 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Bach 42 and Conn 8, 88 players - opinions needed! Message-ID: <200001200225.UAA15491@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have the opportunity to buy a great Bach 42 for a really excellent price. I would like to know what y'all think about the straight version of traditional f-attachment horns. Do most of you feel there is a significant difference in how the horn blows? What about the sound, do you hear a significant difference in tone quality? I am currently using a light weight slide on my 42B and I find it too bright for my tastes in most music I like playing. I was trying to find a standard weight slide for my horn but ran across this 42 deal and now think I should just get the whole horn. Opinions needed! Thanks, Mike From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:28 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:26:41 -0500 (EST) From: Eugene Grissom To: trombone-L@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Abram Lincoln Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII All those interested and that have been requesting informaton on the veteran trombonist Abe Lincoln should know that a new bio/article by Floyd Levin has been published in the Nov. issue of Jazz Journal International (English publication) and has been released in it's entirety in the L.A. Jazz Scene (January issue). For more information write to 12439 Magnolia , B1 #254, No. Hollywood, CA 91607... An impressive article on Abe... Eugene E. Grissom / Executive Director / Frank Rosolino Memorial Fund, Inc. From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:28 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:54:16 EST From: Servo149@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Francois Huybrechts Message-ID: <2.663825.25b7d2d8@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Listers- I've been given an assignment. As part of my AP American History Class we've been asked to give a somewhat concise report (at least 500 words) regarding an institution that has affected the lives of Kansans in some way. Being a musician my first, and last idea, was to do a report on the Wichita Symphony. Upon visiting their web page I found a brief, not so concise history of the Symphony. However, in order to beef up the report by a few 100 words, I have decided to include anecdotes about the conductors, and musicians which have performed with the symphony over the years. But that's enough of the introduction. After having done some brief research it seems that one of the most interesting Maestros ever to ascend the podium of the WSO was a conductor named Francois Huybrechts. However, I haven't been able to find any anecdotes about him except for that he wore a red velvet suit on stage. Also, asking any of the members of the trombone section is out of the question, none of them were here during that time (1972-1977). If any of you work, or have worked, with Maestro Huybrechts I would greatly appreciate your sending me any kind of stories involving his quirks and/or eccentricities. Private responses are encouraged. Many, many thanks, Tate Addis From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:29 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:15:27 -0600 From: "Tom Izzo" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: The Naperville Area Trombone Ensemble Message-ID: <00fb01bf62fc$fc0f3940$a875dfd0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Colleagues, I thought I'd submit a shameless plug of my own. On Wednesday evening Feb 16, the Naperville Area Trombone Ensemble, will be performing at the Union League Club of Chicago at 65 W. Jackson Blvd/Chicago, IL. Performance time is 6:30 pm. Any of you in the area, come and listen to a large Trombone Choir of Piccolo through Contrabass Trombones. Many of our names appear regularly here on the Trombone-L. Come and meet the likes of David Guion, Robert Holland, Linda Yeo, Jay Heltzer, Tom Izzo & others. The program is an eclectic mix of Baroque, Romantic, Liturgical & Jazz arranged for large Trombone ensemble. Hear arrangements of list members David Hankin, Adrian Drover, Douglas Yeo, Brad Howland, Gordon Bowie, Chuck DePaolo, and others. Or, come just to see........a Piccolo Trombone next to THREE Contrabass Trombones. You won't be disappointed. As John Lennon said: "A splendid time is guaranteed for all"! Tom Tom Izzo, director The Naperville Area Trombone Ensemble (large Trombone Choir) The TOMBONES (mixed Trombone Sextet) The BASSics (Bass Trombone Quartet) http://www.Geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/7875/ From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:29 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:31:21 -0500 From: Douglas Yeo To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Standards Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 7:23 PM -0600 1/19/00, Adolphus Sprott wrote: > > Wow, your post about the trumpet audition has really boosted my spirits. >I am only a high school senior (I will major in music next year, hopefully >at Indiana), but even I can play notes and rythyms and count rests. I would say that most people who sent in the tapes for our audition probably felt the same way. The problem is, playing the notes and rhythms and counting the rests on one "level" isn't the same as doing on on the next level. What's good enough in high school isn't good enough in college which isn't good enough in the community orchestra which isn't good enough in the Chicago Symphony. "How good is good enough?" is an incredibly important question. When I listen to tapes, I am constantly thinking, "Do I want to sit next to this person in the Boston Symphony?" That's different than thinking, "Should I admit this person to New England Conservatory for graduate school?" >I have >always been under the impression that most of the players at these major >auditions are excellent players who have studied music for years. It seems >as though with a degree in music, they would have at least learned how to >play correct rythyms and play at the right time. I have heard that solid >fundamentals are good enough to win any audition. Solid fundamentals may be enough to get you advanced from a tape round. They are not enough to win an audition. ARTISTRY demonstrated with high standards wins auditions which includes fundamentals AND an ability to communicate the essence of the music. We don't want robots in the BSO, we want artists. Given that tapes are of such varying qualities, we don't put that much emphasis on tone quality or musicianship because they are subtle things which can't always be heard in a poor quality tape. > Does this mean that if I >play the correct notes, rythyms, articulation, and style with a good sound >that I have a chance at winning an orchestral audition? Those are the entry level skills needed to get heard. Have those things and we'll listen. But you will not win with just those things. You need more. Much more. >Were these great players with elementary mistakes, or were they just >plain elementary players? I don't know who they were and I won't know - the playing of the tapes is completely anonymous, we have a recording engineer play the tapes for the committee, the candidates are announced by number only, what number = what person is known only by the personnel manager and that information is not divulged to anyone except to tell people if their tape has passed them on to the first live round or not. High standards are what makes a great orchestra - business - school - restaurant - you name it - great. -Doug Yeo ********************************************** * Douglas Yeo * * Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra * * Music Director, The New England Brass Band * * yeo@yeodoug.com * * http://www.yeodoug.com * * <>< * ********************************************** From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:30 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:29:36 EST From: JennWhaa@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Re: Help! I could be torturing you! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am not trying to say that I don't want or deserve positive comments! I just want them when they are warranted. I do believe in motivating younger players with positive comments but I feel that for my personal tastes, I would like to know exactly how I am doing - the good, the bad and the ugly. As I progress with my music, I find myself needing to know more about what is wrong with what I am doing than what is right. And a good, swift kick into reality is good. I seem to be having a lot of those lately.... So much work to do and only one face Jen :) In a message dated Wed, 19 Jan 2000 6:43:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, Beth Lewis writes: > On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 JennWhaa@aol.com wrote: > > > > > I freely admit that I am a victim of this whole PC, self-esteem thing. > Not only have I received fake praise from teachers but I have also > received it from my parents and friends, specifically in music. Don't > get me wrong, I can play my horn. This wasn't always the case and I am > still FAR from even thinking about making a tape for a BSO audition. > > Hold on a second...I'm no supporter of the '2+2=5 as long as you feel > good about it' regime, but there HAS to be some praise in music > instruction. You shouldn't blame parents/friends for being too heavy on > that end of the spectrum (how can they help it?), but from teachers it is > necessary in some amount. How would you feel if in every trombone lesson > you have ever had, or any kind of instruction for that matter, all the > teacher had to say was stuff like "Okay...your articulation's sloppy," > "you're dragging," or "that was out of tune"...no positive reinforcement > of any kind. Realizing your areas of weaknesses is really important, but > the occasional sincere, positive comment can really make or break the > success of a teacher (by that I mean being able to keep students > improving -artistically, personally, and technically- AND coming back). > With young students this is especially important (even if you have to > think really hard to find something to compliment). I haven't done a > lot of teaching myself, but I know with all the teachers I've admired a > pretty even balance of positive-negative comments is present. Also, > we're not here because we want to learn how to push and pull slides, keys > and buttons with utmost grace, but we are here for the love of music (I > hope that's the case anyway). That love isn't nurtured with instruction > void of positive reinforcement. > > >But > >I realize that many people give praise freely even when it is not > >deserved > >either because they don't know any better (my parents) or they are > >concerned about hurting my feelings (my friends). > > Nah, they probably just realized that you're already giving yourself more > than your fair share of criticism. Try to lighten up a little--it seems > to me that this total negativity could only lead to burn-out. > > Beth L. > > > > > As a result, and this may be a bad thing, I have a really hard time > believing anything anyone tells me that is good and am much more likely > to believe criticism. I don't want to be part of the 99% that don't know > how badly they are playing. I am going to know exactly how horrible I am > at all times! :) > > > > > So, this leaves me a bit mental..... > > > > Is there a term for "fear of compliments"?? > > > > Jen > > > > From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:30 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:15:46 -0700 From: Earl Needham To: kdowdy@oppd.com, "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: RE: I was tortured.... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000119191546.00852ac0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 10:37 AM 1/19/00 -0600, DOWDY, KENNETH S wrote: >This whole thing has me greatly confused. Just what the heck IS good >trumpet playing? > >Ken Dowdy TACIT. Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34¼25.446' W103¼12.700' (or so) Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:33 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:52:21 -0700 From: Earl Needham To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: ONLY a senior? and self esteem... Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000119195221.00852de0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit At 07:23 PM 1/19/00 -0600, Adolphus Sprott wrote: >Doug, > Wow, your post about the trumpet audition has really boosted my spirits. >I am only a high school senior Now wait a second here. ONLY a high school senior? What does THAT mean? I often tell people not to use phrases like that, as it's too self-limiting. ONLY ... Perhaps a better phrase is "I'm a high school senior, and not quite ready to audition..." But certainly NOT "I am only a high school senior". I get jumped out by a lot of people who don't understand what I'm trying to tell them, too, but I continue. Remember the "self-fulfilling prophecy"? That's pretty much how I see that phrase. And, honestly, being a high-school senior isn't so bad. it's really pretty good. I'm 45 years old. Although I finished high school, and have some college behind me, my DAD went through life with a sixth-grade education. In about 1917, when he was 12, he had to drop out of school and go to work. He was never able to finish the education he wanted. And guess what? I think a LOT of people his age and a bit YOUNGER did the same. It wasn't until relatively recently (40's?) that most people in the world started finishing high school. Be PROUD, man! Earl Earl Needham, KD5XB mailto:KD5XB@AMSAT.ORG Clovis, New Mexico DM84jk N34¼25.446' W103¼12.700' (or so) Pet peeve: breath is a noun, breathe is a verb (When you take a breath, you breathe...) From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:33 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:47:11 EST From: FOpal@aol.com To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Playing too fast Message-ID: <2b.10f8e87.25b7df3f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have an interesting question... My lips are able to play notes quite fast BUT I've now hit a new problem... I have a 16 notes in a run and I have to hit positions 5 1 3 5 for an rising arpeggio for a Gb Bb Eb Gb run of notes. I can play the speed fine but Im taken at tempo I cannot play them strickly because my embouchure is shaking so much because I move the slide so fast. Any suggestions on fast playing with lips and the slide? Frank Opal From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:33 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:07:46 -0600 From: Mike Coyle To: trombone-l@lists.missouri.edu Subject: Philip Jones' death Message-ID: <200001200408.WAA23995@newton.pconline.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey list, I'm not sure if anyone has noted on trombone-l that Philip Jones died on Monday at the age of 71. His work as a trumpet player and ensemble leader was truly impressive and his passing is a great loss to the musical world. I heard a story on NPR that in 1986 Jones was backing out of his driveway and accidentally drove over his trumpet and he went into retirement shortly after that. Can anyone out there substantiate that? Thanks, Mike From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:33 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:05:41 -0800 From: Larry White To: smcrane@esper.com Cc: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: I was tortured.... Message-ID: <38868995.D63F36FD@telus.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So very true. Let me explain that I am strictly an amateur player playing because I love music, love to play in a band, and when I can play my Bass Bone. However, the young people, in the majority, that are coming out of school etc. these days think that they have all, yes all the knowledge and woe betide the old geezer that would dare to offer advice or suggest a different way to do something. Respect, is something else that has gone out the window. Just recently, late last year, I was very priviledged to sit under what I consider one if not the top band instructors for three weeks. This gentlemand has forgotten more than most of us would care to even learn, but what were the young people doing. Goofing off, and not picking up the tips, the explanations as to why a certain piece should sound a certain way at a certain point. "The basses should be light as if they were being plucked like a string bass, not plodding through the notes" Not only were they not absorbing what was being imparted, but they were also a disturbance to the rest who wanted to improve their playing. A pity? Yes, and I am sure not only in Canada. Larry White "Stewart M. Crane" wrote: > Place tongue in cheek before continuing. > > But Doug, did the players who made those tapes FEEL GOOD about their > playing? And who are you and the other members of the BSO audition committee > to say what's good and what's bad? Each person is entitled to define for > him/her self what is good trumpet playing, and for the audition committee to > tell that person that their playing is not good when the player believes > that it is, is to seriously damage the player's self-esteem. Heaven forbid > that we should do that! :-) > > Stewart Crane > > Serious PS: All the self-esteem garbage that has been taught in our schools > is starting to smell. Doug just got a snootful of it. From ???@??? Thu Jan 20 09:44:34 2000 Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 22:15:05 -0600 From: "Kenneth Dowdy" To: "Trombones and related issues forum." Subject: Re: ONLY a senior? and self esteem... Message-ID: <001f01bf62fc$f106d260$131d0f3f@default> I'll second that, Earl! When Urbie was "only" the age of a high school senior, he probably could have kicked the butt of anyone in the BSO, or anywhere else with his playing. I doubt that he would have won an audition. However, as long as there is a trombone, trombonists will remember names like Urbie, JJ, and Pryor. I doubt nearly as many will remember the name of even one of the orchestral players of this century. NEVER get discouraged. You may not win a chair in a prestigious organization, but you may sell more CDs than all the rest combined. In the end, what is most important to you? Ken Dowdy -----Original Message----- From: Earl Needham To: Trombones and related issues forum. Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 9:33 PM Subject: ONLY a senior? and self esteem... >At 07:23 PM 1/19/00 -0600, Adolphus Sprott wrote: >>Doug, >> Wow, your post about the trumpet audition has really boosted my spirits. >>I am only a high school senior > > > Now wait a second here. > > ONLY a high school senior? What does THAT mean? > > I often tell people not to use phrases like that, as it's too >self-limiting. ONLY ... > Perhaps a better phrase is "I'm a high school senior, a